Buzzing noises from glove box

[karlaw]

I put 2 new fuel pumps in, got 50 lbs pressure, turn key to ON position, and jump start to purple wire....car fires good and runs 2 seconds and dies, have to wait 5-10 minutes to retry.
BUT when I turn key to ON, I get buzzing noise from glove box area, and speedo cluster goes dead, NO Security light working. The buzzing only lasts 5-10 seconds then quits.
Any ideas out there ?


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[QB93Z]

I put 2 new fuel pumps in, got 50 lbs pressure, turn key to ON position, and jump start to purple wire....car fires good and runs 2 seconds and dies, have to wait 5-10 minutes to retry.
BUT when I turn key to ON, I get buzzing noise from glove box area, and speedo cluster goes dead, NO Security light working. The buzzing only lasts 5-10 seconds then quits.
Any ideas out there ?


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There seem to be several different things in you questions.


Instrument cluster going dead with key ON is a serious problem that needs to be fixed before you do other trouble shooting. This kind of electrical problem can cause many unsuspected problems. Is the speedo cluster "Not dead" when the key is OFF? Your description is confusing.


Why do you "jump start to the purple wire"? When you turn the ignition switch to start, does the engine crank?


Is the engine "cold" when the stall in 2-3 seconds happens or is this a restart of an operating temperature engine?


I recommend that you work on one thing at a time.


Jim

[karlaw]

With the key Off, cluster is dead. With key in ON position, I am getting some noises from glove box area.
With key turned to START, everything goes dead. Then turn key to OFF, wait 5-10 minutes, turn key to ON, then I jumpstart under the hood using jumper wire from battery to the purple wire, the starter activates and cranks engine properly, and engine will fire and sometimes tries to run for 3-4 seconds while starter still engaged, but then quits firing before I remove jumper wire. I wait a few seconds, and try the jumper again and engine cranks over freely but will not fire. I then turn key to OFF position and wait 5-10 minutes, then begin process again with same results: engine fires good on first 5 seconds of jump starting, then no more firing until a 10 min wait.

This is always on cold engine as car has not run in months.
I have a 1990 FSM, but last night I discovered that section 8A is missing from manual, that is the Electrical Trouble Shooting section that I need. My understanding is that is a separate booklet, I bought my FSM for $100 from Craig's list.

As far as I understand, the VATS is bypassed as I have a VATS INTERAGATOR hooked up to the wires at the base of steering column.
I have also swapped ECM from my other zr1, nothing changes.


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[QB93Z]

Can you post some pictures of the battery terminals and the location of the jumper to the purple wire.


Or if posting a pic is difficult, email or message the pic to me, jim@gizmosart.com, 443-244-1347


I suspect that you have a bad battery cable connection or a damaged battery cable and that you are powering the car's electronics through the jumper to the purple wire.


With the ignition key ON, does the Instrument cluster light up? Do you see the indicators on the Driver Information Console above the AC controls?


You may also have an electrical ground problem. You may be powering parts of the car through the wiring under the dash. This can cause melted wires and costly repairs. I saw it happen on a ZR-1 here in Maryland.


Yes, you need to buy Volume 2 of the FSM to get the troubleshooting portions and the wiring diagrams.


I recommend NOT trying to start the car if the electrical system is not working properly. You have proven that the engine can crank and fire so you know that you have fuel and spark. You don't need to run the engine until you get the electrical system working correctly.


Jim

[karlaw]

Hi, I towed the car into my shop. The shop was dark inside when I got in the car and took photos of the gauges.
I noticed the interior lights in door panels not working. But when I tried the key ON and my battery to purple wire jumper, again on first try car tries to run for 3 seconds, then ......
Suddenly the interior and door panel lights turn on at exact moment as engine quits firing ! Turn key to OFF, waited 10 minutes for the interior lights to turn themselves off.
No longer getting noises from glove box area, after I played around with heater controls.
With key turned to ON:
Speedo cluster "check gauges" and "door ajar" light up.
DIC : "Full engine power, Infl rest, Service Engine Soon, and battery icon....they all light up.

Then key to START: engine never cranks,
SPEEDO: the "Brake light" also comes on with Check Gauges and Door Ajar.
DIC: the "Infl Rest" light goes out, other 3 stay on.

I could not get the background SPEEDO lights to turn on at anytime despite playing with headlights and dimmer switch. Nor could I activate interior lights , except the interior lights would always come on by themselves after my 3 sec starting attempt. Also noted on interior lights , I could not get them to turn off...except for turn key to OFF and wait 10 min.
Next Wednesday I am getting the section 8A FSM supplement for electrical diagnosis, costing $100.


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[QB93Z]

I got the pictures that you sent. Good Job.


In pic 1 of 7 is that a T-connector to the purple wire?


In pic 4, the battery voltage appears to be low. Can you put a charger on the battery or connect a battery tender?


I will need to do some research on the VATS Interrogator connections. Did you connect the VI? Do you have a correct ignition key for the car? Are you just using the VI as a way to bypass the VATS system?


Jim

[karlaw]

Farm style T connector, just bared the wires and twist together

Yes, good eye on the low voltage. At full charge, nothing seems to change, but batt charger going back on
I have correct original key, have cleaned contacts. Simply unplug the lower steering column connectors, then plug and play the matching VI plugs.

Yes, using the VI to hopefully bypass the key chip thing. I also bought a matchbox size aftermarket gizmo for $30 that has 15 toggle switches to choose the correct resistor size, which according to the VI is key chip #3.


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[QB93Z]

In addition to VATS (the chip on the key) there is a Theft Deterrent System (TDS) on these cars. I will have to read up on the specifics again but basically if the CCM does not sense the correct sequence of door unlock, door open and ignition key turn to Start, the starter sequence is blocked. Since there may be an issue with the interior lights you mentioned, there may be a TDS problem going on.


Keep in mind that VATS and TDS not only block starter operation (the purple wire) but also turn off the fuel pumps and the ignition (spark) system. I will have to review the manual to get the specifics.


I will do some homework tonight.


Jim

[QB93Z]

I may be incorrect about the TDS and start enable. The service manual is not clear on whether a TDS unauthorized entry signal to the CCM causes the CCM to block start enable. Also I couldn't find any circuitry that disables the Ignition System in the 1990 FSM.


So, the next recommendation I have is to check if the fuel pumps run when the ignition key is turned to ON. They should be running. You can check for fuel pressure by connecting a gauge to the fuel test connection on the front end of the right side fuel rail. The connection is facing the back of the alternator. With Key ON and Engine OFF, the fuel pressure should be ~50 psi. Note the 1990 Service Manual does not show this circuitry (that I could find).


Jim

[karlaw]

Fuel pressure goes to 50 lbs, while cranking, and with key ON also goes to 50psi. Also used Goldycon's wire crossover at the tank to switch pumps around, and same results. So it appears all is well for fuel pump pressures.
Key ON is 50 lbs, key OFF it goes down to 43 and 10 min later still about 40 psi.


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[QB93Z]

That is good information. When you were cranking this time, did the lights on the cluster and the dash stay on?


Jim

[karlaw]

Not sure becoz when using the jumper wire, I am standing by front tire.


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[karlaw]

Got no helper until next week, but I will try to rig up a mirror or something here now


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[QB93Z]

OK, I understand.


Jim

[karlaw]

So I checked, the dash lights and dic lights stay on while cranking.


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[QB93Z]

So I checked, the dash lights and dic lights stay on while cranking.



OK. Now we can diagnose the cranking circuit. If you have gotten Section 8A of the Service Manual (Book 2) I am looking at page 8A-30-4 Chart # 1.


Do you have a 12 vdc test light? If not I suggest getting one at a auto parts store (sometimes called a Test Probe)


Connect the test light from the negative terminal of the battery to the connector you have on the "purple wire" which is the starter solenoid.


Turn the ignition key to START. Did the test light come on?


I am predicting the answer is no since you are using a jumper to crank the engine.


So, the next step is to test for voltage at the Clutch Safety Switch and then at the Starter Interrupt Relay. These items are under the drivers side hush panel, near where the VATS unit is hooked up. Do you know how to identify specific terminals on switches and relays?


Jim

[karlaw]

Won't have the section 8A booklet until next Tuesday nite.
Test light connected from Negative to Purple wire, key on Start position, nothing , no power to test light.
4 month old battery when charged up using a good 40 amp charger for 3 hrs, then sitting for 10 hours, never seems to get above 11.9 volts, unless charger is turned back on, then I get the 13.2 volts.
I tested both sides of the connector as shown in photo I texted. No power . Not sure what that connector does. Haven't found the starter interrupt yet, having trouble getting my head under the dash,...going to get a hand held mirror to help see up there.
Not sure how to identify specific terminals....
I have attempted to try to get ohm readings on fuel injectors with plenum in place. I pull #1 inj fuse, then plug a lead wire from front half of fuse holder to a tester lead, then take other lead onto a paper clip and probe the pin sockets on the left hand ECM plug. I tried with battery disconnected .... Can't get anything to read.....I followed a description from Marc H, no readings. I wonder if I am not getting the right place to hook the grounding side in the fuse box ?


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[QB93Z]

Please verify your readings from yesterday evening. Check for 12 vdc on the yellow wire that goes to the two wire connector in the top photo. The connector has two wires, yellow with a black stripe and purple. With the key in START, there should be 12 vdc on the yellow wire.


If you still get no voltage at the yellow wire, then the problem is in the Starter Enable Relay circuit or the Ignition Switch itself.


I think that the "other wire" with orange/white wire is for the under dash light so it should have 12 vdc when a door is open.


The Starter Enable Relay is turned on by the Central Control Module (CCM). The CCM gets a signal from the VATS Module and from the Theft Deterrent System.


These components are interconnected. The service manual says:


page 6E3-A-68: If the CCM does not send the correct VATS/TDS signal to the ECM, the ECM will not pulse the injectors and the car will not start


page 9D-2: The Starter Interrupt Relay: If VATS is not satisfied, the CCM will Reset (not allow start) for 2-4 minutes (crank and fuel disabled) and will not permit starting.


This is why the car will crank if you use the purple wire jumper, but it won't continue to run because the ECM and CCM are blocking the signal to the Fuel Enable Relay.

[QB93Z]

Do you know the history of this ZR-1? Did it ever run for you? Who installed the VATS interrogator? Have the CCM, ECM, Ignition Switch, VATS module, the Clutch Safety Switch, the Fuel Enable Relay, or the Starter Interrupt Relay been replaced?


Do you know how to use the Diagnostic Connector to check for Trouble Codes? What we need to do now is try to put everything back together and then follow the trouble shooting listed in the service manual.


I will be glad to try to help you do that.


By the way, what is you name and where do you live?


Jim

[karlaw]

Hi Jim. My name is Robert D Adam , I live on acreage beside Red Deer, Alberta, Canada.
This red ZR-1 came from southern Minnisota , I bought it 12 years ago. It run perfect 3 years, then had a no start for 2 hours on a hot day in the city.
The car then had a couple more no start issues, and it got parked. It sat a 3 year stretch, then one year ago got it barely running, drove it 20 miles, it had maybe 100 hp, parked it for winter, tried many times to start this year. I discovered a bad fuel pump 1, so replaced both, cleaned tank, etc. That brings us to present day.

I rechecked testing the yellow/black stripe wire as in photo I sent, no power there even when using start position.
I installed the Vats Interrogator. Nothing has been replaced, other than fuel pumps, filter, and battery.
I did use a cheap $30 code reader, only got the code 12. Yesterday I took a bent paper clip and jumped the A & B in the ALDL connector, and I got NO codes, but the radiator fan came on full blast, and I think maybe some dash lights, just don't remember exactly.
I am going to find my code reader and retry for codes.
I now have that second book, the 8A section.
I do believe the ignition switch needs replacement, becoz last year there was intermittent connections in the start position, and now nothing in start position.
Also believe there is fuel enable issue, as it fires for a couple seconds, then nothing until sitting for 10 min.


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[karlaw]

When ignition switch fails, is it always the key cylinder part ? Or could it be the plastic wire terminal connector after the key cylinder ? Will a generic steering wheel puller work ?
I used to pull GM steering wheels a few years back in cavaliers and Chevy trucks, to fix the theft recovery cars I bought at salvage auctions.


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[QB93Z]

Hi Robert, I was in Edmonton, AB on the way to Alaska in my Yellow 1994 ZR-1 and then in Calgary on the way back but I never made it to Red Deer. That is a beautiful area that you live in.

[QB93Z]

It is late for me here on the east coast so I will go through the Wiring diagrams tomorrow. In order to check for a bad Ignition Switch you might be able to access the connector on the switch and check for continuity across the Start contacts. I will post more tomorrow.


Jim

[QB93Z]

In the Service Manual Vol 2, look at page 8A-30-0, Starter and Charging System.


The Ignition Switch is shown at the top of the page. On the car, if you can, identify the Yellow wire from terminal "s" of the ignition switch connector 2.


Remove the connector and check for 12VDC on terminal "s" of the switch measured to battery negative, with the Ignition Switch in START.


If you have 12 volts on terminal "s", then we will need to trouble shoot the Starter Enable Relay circuit (ECM, CCM, VATS and Door locks etc)


If you do not have 12 volts at terminal "s" then check for 12 Volts at terminal "D" or "B", the input side of the ignition switch.


In START, if you have NO voltage at "s" with voltage at "D" or "B" then the ignition Switch is faulty.

Jim

[karlaw]

I finally was able to check that yellow wire, and in START there is good power. It was a difficult one to test. I removed drivers seat and dropped down the steering column.
I removed the switch and seen corrosion on one of the tabs. Going to buy new switch anyways because it's all apart.


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[karlaw]

I also checked for power on both plug ins to the ignition switch, each plug had one live wire in key OFF. One live wire was red, the other plug the live wire was red/orange Color


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