Make into Track Car, or sell along? advice?

[cbaclawski]

Hello,
Background:
I'm the proud owner of a 1990 zr1 with the lingenfelter 368 package (work done in 1996 @ 45k, not original) that I purchased about 18 months ago. I like the car, and I've spent quite a bit of time and money getting everything "right" (brakes, clutch, coils, plugs, thermostat, sensors, etc. etc. etc.)

As of now its what I'd call "street driver" quality with about 83k total. It has a rebuilt title due to an incident with a trailer prior to my purchase, and I feel like it's probably worth ~15k on a good day(It really does run strong and everything works perfectly at this point). I'm not willing to sell it myself, so going through a consignment lot I'm probably looking at getting 12k for it after all commissions.(I have way more than that in it for whatever that's worth)

Input wanted:

I find myself lacking space to store it, and I don't really drive it much. I've also recently become obsessed with Track day driving. I currently have 2 cars I run on the track, but both are relatively low HP "momentum cars", and I am a very average (at best) track driver.

If this car is destined to be a garage queen, I think the space is better used elsewhere, BUT if I spend some more coin and do some road track upgrades (roll cage, harnesses, new radiator, etc.) It seems like it might be a really fun/cool track car.

What would you do if you were in my shoes? Sell it for whatever I can get, or is it worth it to convert to a track car and sell one of the other 2 similar track cars?

I like the history/story of the ZR1, and the "vintageness" of tracking it is part of the appeal. The obvious advice of sell it and buy a c5 z06 that's faster/cheaper/more common for the track really isn't something I'd be interested in. If I'm going to track a corvette, it'll be this one.

Honestly seeking input, I need the parking space, and I'm about 50/50 on which way I want to go... How much do you think it might cost to get the car semi "race ready". Wouldn't want to go full on race car and spoil the character of the car, but safe and reliable with decent track performance...


Thanks for reading! (I know it all boils down to what I want, just wondering what you guys might think)

Curt

[Ronstar]

I would track the Zr-1!
I don't think a C5 zo6 is faster than your 368,and the roar of that LT-5 at WOT is addicting.
Throw some sticky tires on it and I think you will be impressed with it on the track!

[Demps]

I track a '91 & love it! I do it for love of the motor. I've learned a lot over my years but here's what's applicable here: someone will always have a faster car. Or 'faster horses, older whiskey, younger women, & more money'.

You get a few folks coming to the pits to see if it's a real ZR-1.

Ted

[RussMcB]

Not sure if this affects your decision, but installing a cage isn't required. You could track it as is (with good pads, tires, etc.), without affecting the interior (to install the cage).

A nice race seat would be a big improvement. And you're right - a new, bigger radiator is probably needed.

A Lingenfelter 368 package sounds pretty special. You might be undervaluing your car.

What are your two current track cars? I sold my Spec Miata race car to buy my ZR-1. You will find the ZR-1 doesn't stop or corner near as well as a newer, smaller car, but it's nice to have more power coming out of corners (even more so in your case).

[cbaclawski]

I would track the Zr-1!
I don't think a C5 zo6 is faster than your 368,and the roar of that LT-5 at WOT is addicting.
Throw some sticky tires on it and I think you will be impressed with it on the track!

Thanks, I really don't get the same excitement seeing the c5 either...

I track a '91 & love it! I do it for love of the motor. I've learned a lot over my years but here's what's applicable here: someone will always have a faster car. Or 'faster horses, older whiskey, younger women, & more money'.

You get a few folks coming to the pits to see if it's a real ZR-1.

Ted

Truth!

Not sure if this affects your decision, but installing a cage isn't required. You could track it as is (with good pads, tires, etc.), without affecting the interior (to install the cage).

A nice race seat would be a big improvement. And you're right - a new, bigger radiator is probably needed.

A Lingenfelter 368 package sounds pretty special. You might be undervaluing your car.

What are your two current track cars? I sold my Spec Miata race car to buy my ZR-1. You will find the ZR-1 doesn't stop or corner near as well as a newer, smaller car, but it's nice to have more power coming out of corners (even more so in your case).

The 2 track cars are a highly modified e46 BMW(non-m), and a pretty much stock rx-8, I doubt either of them stop or corner as well as your spec miata did either, lol

As far as undervaluing the car, you may be right, but between the rebuilt title and my unwillingness to handle the transaction myself, I'm trying to be realistic.

I know I don't NEED a cage, and it already has upgraded brakes, but at the very least I'd want a good race seat and 6 pt harness. At least a track bar to attach the harnesses would be needed, and at that point I'd probably just go ahead and cage it. Someday I might want to enter a time trial event or something. I do want to maintain as much of the original character as possible though, not looking to make a full on race car.


Thank to all, I'm starting to lean pretty heavily in the "Track it!!" direction...

Curt

[RussMcB]

Thank to all, I'm starting to lean pretty heavily in the "Track it!!" direction...

CurtNot sure how far away you are, but we're going to Road Atlanta 9/22 and Atlanta Motorsports Park 10/22, with a fun, laid back club:

http://www.jzillatrackdays.com/

[cbaclawski]

Not sure how far away you are, but we're going to Road Atlanta 9/22 and Atlanta Motorsports Park 10/22, with a fun, laid back club:

http://www.jzillatrackdays.com/

I'm in charlotte, so not too far at all. I've been wanting to do a road Atlanta day for a while...

[RussMcB]

Unfortunate timing. That track club was at Charlotte a couple of weeks ago. :-)

[USAF Retired]

I say track the Z.

[emmvette]

Track the ZR-1. Leave the original seat, its really good and add a bar or partial cage so you can install good 6 pt harness. My car works well on the track and has a larger radiator, upgraded brakes, original seat with reinforced harness / roll bar and 5 pt belts, oh - and a little extra power :-)

[cbaclawski]

I say track the Z.


Leaning that way!!

Track the ZR-1. Leave the original seat, its really good and add a bar or partial cage so you can install good 6 pt harness. My car works well on the track and has a larger radiator, upgraded brakes, original seat with reinforced harness / roll bar and 5 pt belts, oh - and a little extra power :-)



How do you get a submarine strap through the original seat? Assuming I can fit in it with a helmet on, this would be ideal. I actually really like the stock seat too...

[BigJohn]

Leaning that way!!





How do you get a submarine strap through the original seat? Assuming I can fit in it with a helmet on, this would be ideal. I actually really like the stock seat too...

Have an upholster make room for the strap!
You may have to cut the top off your helmet or remove your top!

:-D

[cbaclawski]

Have an upholster make room for the strap!
You may have to cut the top off your helmet or remove your top!

:-D

Or I could have a couple vertebrae removed ;-)

[BigJohn]

Or I could have a couple vertebrae removed ;-)

I am 6'6" maybe we could get a deal having Gurnee bubble tops produced!

[RussMcB]

My opinion: No need for more than a four point harness for a track day car in a sedan where you are sitting upright.

The crotch straps are mainly for cars where the driver is laid back. It helps stabilize the lap belt (so it doesn't move upward in a front-end hit), and prevents the driver from sliding forward.

Six point belts are required in formula cars (to protect your nuts). If you wanted sub straps in the ZR-1, you could use 6-points (as opposed to 5), where the sub straps are anchored in the same place as the lap belts. So, a hole in the seat isn't needed. You're sitting on the sub straps rather than having them (or it) come up through the seat.

Regarding stock seats, I often get a bruise on my right thigh from the Corvette's power seat controls. A racing type seat really makes a big difference because you aren't holding on the steering wheel tightly to keep your upper body in place. It allows you to hold the wheel lightly.

Imagine you get into a tank-slapper situation where you're trying to catch a wild slide. Having a racing seat let's you focus more on the steering corrections than just holding on to stay in place.

Once you've driven on track in a racing seat it's hard to be comfortable in (most) stock seats.

[BigJohn]

:cheers:

[RussMcB]

Nice set up, BigJohn. No doubt you're secure in there.

[cbaclawski]

My opinion: No need for more than a four point harness for a track day car in a sedan where you are sitting upright.

The crotch straps are mainly for cars where the driver is laid back. It helps stabilize the lap belt (so it doesn't move upward in a front-end hit), and prevents the driver from sliding forward.

Six point belts are required in formula cars (to protect your nuts). If you wanted sub straps in the ZR-1, you could use 6-points (as opposed to 5), where the sub straps are anchored in the same place as the lap belts. So, a hole in the seat isn't needed. You're sitting on the sub straps rather than having them (or it) come up through the seat.

Regarding stock seats, I often get a bruise on my right thigh from the Corvette's power seat controls. A racing type seat really makes a big difference because you aren't holding on the steering wheel tightly to keep your upper body in place. It allows you to hold the wheel lightly.

Imagine you get into a tank-slapper situation where you're trying to catch a wild slide. Having a racing seat let's you focus more on the steering corrections than just holding on to stay in place.

Once you've driven on track in a racing seat it's hard to be comfortable in (most) stock seats.

I had an instructor last season whose real job was an emergency room surgeon. He was adamant that he would not ride in a car with a 4pt harness, on the track or otherwise..(though he was ok with stock 3pt)

My current track car has race seats and 5pt(actually 6, 2 sub straps that come though the bottom of the seat) and its amazing how much easier it is to drive when you're all tightly strapped in...

:cheers:

I want!

[VetteFantasy]

Here's another vote for tracking it! Sounds like there's not much left to do to get your car ready. I think you'll have a blast in it, honestly. I'm doing my first HPDE with mine in two weeks at VIR. Yesterday my husband and I were there for the IMSA race and I did the parade laps to practice for it. Wow, my appreciation and enjoyment of the car just skyrocketed! It felt so stable even blasting down the back straight. The previous owner totally track prepped it and traveled to many tracks along the East coast with it.

I really don't think you'd regret doing it. Randy Rippie of DRM is a great resource for track stuff, too, and he lives in NC. I'd be happy to share his contact info and I know he'd be more than happy to give you some advice.

Here's a pic of mine from yesterday. Look closely and you can see the roll bar! Even in a sea of 200 Vettes, it gets lots of admiration and attention. You just don't see them very often!

[RussMcB]

VetteFantasy, that's a funny license plate. :-)

[cbaclawski]

Here's another vote for tracking it! Sounds like there's not much left to do to get your car ready. I think you'll have a blast in it, honestly. I'm doing my first HPDE with mine in two weeks at VIR. Yesterday my husband and I were there for the IMSA race and I did the parade laps to practice for it. Wow, my appreciation and enjoyment of the car just skyrocketed! It felt so stable even blasting down the back straight. The previous owner totally track prepped it and traveled to many tracks along the East coast with it.

I really don't think you'd regret doing it. Randy Rippie of DRM is a great resource for track stuff, too, and he lives in NC. I'd be happy to share his contact info and I know he'd be more than happy to give you some advice.

Here's a pic of mine from yesterday. Look closely and you can see the roll bar! Even in a sea of 200 Vettes, it gets lots of admiration and attention. You just don't see them very often!


Its a done deal... going to the shop next week. Hope to see some of you guys on track someday soon (as you point me by ;) )

[tnova]

Big John,
I've a '91 ZR-1 that I'm preparing for autocross and an occasional track day and have been debating about what to do with seat in order to use a harness. Your seat is a perfect solution. What year is your seat from? Could you describe the mods a little bit more since it's not only the sub strap but the shoulder strap pass through that you had done. BTW I track a brand "P" in time trials about 6 times a year, full on track car that was a former club racer with a Momo seat and 6 point Schroth harness and I wear a HANS (required for my class). I'd never go on the track without a 5 or 6 point. Too many situations where staying firmly planted in the seat was the difference between maintaining control and losing it.
Tony -Tnova

[BigJohn]

Big John,
I've a '91 ZR-1 that I'm preparing for autocross and an occasional track day and have been debating about what to do with seat in order to use a harness. Your seat is a perfect solution. What year is your seat from? Could you describe the mods a little bit more since it's not only the sub strap but the shoulder strap pass through that you had done. BTW I track a brand "P" in time trials about 6 times a year, full on track car that was a former club racer with a Momo seat and 6 point Schroth harness and I wear a HANS (required for my class). I'd never go on the track without a 5 or 6 point. Too many situations where staying firmly planted in the seat was the difference between maintaining control and losing it.
Tony -Tnova

My seats are 95 sport seats.
Callaway Cars sent them to an upholster for modifications and custom hides.

[RussMcB]

I had an instructor last season whose real job was an emergency room surgeon. He was adamant that he would not ride in a car with a 4pt harness, on the track or otherwise..(though he was ok with stock 3pt) I stand corrected. I did a little research and, it seems that while a 4-point is good for holding you in the seat (like, for autocrossing), sub strap(s) is still better crash protection, because the shoulder belts will still want to pull the lap belt upwards.

Thanks for poking me into rethinking my opinion.

[cbaclawski]

Thanks to all that replied, I'm sold, car is going to the race shop Tuesday.

Here's what I plan to have done:

Definite:
1.) Seats/harnesses attached to a harness bar. Decided against a cage since I don't want to destroy the interior(want to run the zr1, not just another stripped vette)
2.)brakes - already have upgraded rotors and steel lines, probably just switch pads
3.)new radiator (car runs a bit hot)
4.)tires - would appreciate some input here, stick with stock width's or square it up, if changing what should I change to?
5.)basic maintenance - thoroughly check everything(no leaks, fuel pumps, injectors, etc...)

maybe:
1.)suspension upgrade, depending on what the shop reports on the condition/quality of what I have, might make an upgrade here. What would be a good choice?
2.)remove secondary intake system - I've checked that it's functioning properly, but it bothers me and would like to remove it as a potential failure point(and tired of constantly worrying that it's not working, I'm a bit paranoid. (if we do this, we'll change the plug wires while under there - coils and injectors are new)
3.) cool looking wing on the back!

Not being a mechanic or a super experienced track driver I know I'm probably overlooking some important stuff. Not really looking to add HP(plenty of that already) My priorities in order are Safety, Reliability, Performance, Cool looking.

I'd love to keep the total cost under $10k (probably already at $3500 with just seats harnesses and tires) Recommendations?

Curt

[ssrszz4]

Get the Dewitt radiator

Sent from my XT1585 using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[cbaclawski]

Get the Dewitt radiator

Sent from my XT1585 using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

this one?

https://www.dewitts.com/collections/corvette-aluminum-radiators/products/1990-1996-aluminum-radiator

[lbszr]

Thanks to all that replied, I'm sold, car is going to the race shop Tuesday.

Here's what I plan to have done:


4.)tires - would appreciate some input here, stick with stock width's or square it up, if changing what should I change to?


Curt


The 315s square make it handle great. It's easy to overdrive the 275s. The 315's will balance it. The 56mm offset 17 inch wheels will fit the front and the rear with spacers and can be rotated. They will rub some on the front. If your used to using Rs, the Hoosier R7 are good. The NT01 are ok and seem to last longer, but they won't stick as much, I stopped getting them because the price went up to about Hoosier cost. I went with VBP extreme springs and sway bars. It was good improvement. I wouldn't recommend the R7 or nt01 if you drive to the track.


They like to eat wheel bearings so spares are nice. Also, inspect the bearing flange radius for cracks. Mine broke a flange off and the caliper held the wheel on, luckily I wasn't in a hard turn when it made the bang. This summer, another front flange cracked all the way around but didn't break yet. I check them before each event. The rear bearings don't seem to have these problems.


I run the Dewitts. It runs about 210 and oil temp is my limit. Oil will peg if no short shifting. Outside temp was 95 though. 75 to 80, it will make the whole session with no short shifting.

[lbszr]

this one?

https://www.dewitts.com/collections/corvette-aluminum-radiators/products/1990-1996-aluminum-radiator



I think mine is the 2 row. I remember it was over $500. There wasn't a 1 row option when I got mine. I don't know which one would be better. I would give them a call.

[henryr]

The 315s square make it handle great. It's easy to overdrive the 275s. The 315's will balance it. The 56mm offset 17 inch wheels will fit the front and the rear with spacers and can be rotated. They will rub some on the front. If your used to using Rs, the Hoosier R7 are good. The NT01 are ok and seem to last longer, but they won't stick as much, I stopped getting them because the price went up to about Hoosier cost. I went with VBP extreme springs and sway bars. It was good improvement. I wouldn't recommend the R7 or nt01 if you drive to the track.


They like to eat wheel bearings so spares are nice. Also, inspect the bearing flange radius for cracks. Mine broke a flange off and the caliper held the wheel on, luckily I wasn't in a hard turn when it made the bang. This summer, another front flange cracked all the way around but didn't break yet. I check them before each event. The rear bearings don't seem to have these problems.


I run the Dewitts. It runs about 210 and oil temp is my limit. Oil will peg if no short shifting. Outside temp was 95 though. 75 to 80, it will make the whole session with no short shifting.

the "normal" 17x11 (56et) will fir up front ?

u have a pick of what that looks like ?

[RussMcB]

the "normal" 17x11 (56et) will fit up front?I think the answer to this question is 'no'.

I tried running 11" sawbades and 315 tires in front and they stuck out too far and rubbed against the fenders.

My solution was to use two 11" A-molds I had that were not the deep stock offset.

If you don't already own track wheels and tires, please check this post to see if you are interested in some spares I have and don't need:
http://zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26298

[henryr]

russ -

so you are running the 11" GS wheels up front ?

if not, i wonder if they would work with a more narrow tire

[Mr Blue]

A local guy is running GS A-Molds front and rear on his LT4 Collectors Edition.
He runs 315's rear and 285's front. So yes it can be done.

[cbaclawski]

I think the answer to this question is 'no'.

I tried running 11" sawbades and 315 tires in front and they stuck out too far and rubbed against the fenders.

My solution was to use two 11" A-molds I had that were not the deep stock offset.

If you don't already own track wheels and tires, please check this post to see if you are interested in some spares I have and don't need:
http://zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=26298


I might be interested in these, i'll keep you posted, want to get it to the shop first.

A local guy is running GS A-Molds front and rear on his LT4 Collectors Edition.
He runs 315's rear and 285's front. So yes it can be done.


I assume "sawblades" refer to the stock wheels, right?


what are A-molds? (sorry for being dumb)

[emmvette]

I'm going to offer a little different opinion -
I would suggest sticking to the stock front tires until you feel you can overdrive the car's capabilities. I don't expect that will happen for most people in a summer or two or at least a couple sets of tires for the track. This will allow you to just use the rims you have for now, and also help save some $ and maintenance replacing the front wheel bearings. The larger front wheels with their extra grip put too much load on the wheel bearings and won't last. There is no good upgrade available. I'm not even sure there are good options for the stock bearings, you can spend a lot of time searching this issue on the forum and elsewhere.

With the suspension, again, I would stick with semi-stock for now and you want to make sure the Bilstein shocks are in good condition (if they haven't been previously rebuilt they are most likely due). Send them out to Delta
Vee and they can rebuild them to stock specs, or upgrade the setting to something more suitable to your track use. Call them to discuss. You will need to do this in the fall to have them back in by the spring, so don't put this off.
Make sure the rest of the FX3 suspension works as it should including the actuators. The FX3 is a good suspension and works well with the ZR-1.

I second the Dewitts radiator suggestion. It's good for track use to help keep the temps down.

[lbszr]

the "normal" 17x11 (56et) will fir up front ?

u have a pick of what that looks like ?


I would not describe 54mm as normal for the zr1. I meant to say 54 before when I said 56. The 36mm is normal and will stick out quite a bit in the front. So any oem 17X11 zr1 wheels will rub probably at the fender lip and I would not try it. The 54mm don't and fit. They will rub the sway bar in the front and the back inside on the inner fender down by the frame. I would not use them on the street. They are good for the track because I don't turn it that far. Except when I was correcting for a 360, or at least I thought I was. The 1/2 spacer is required to run the 54 in the rear.


Here is a picture of the 17x11. Not sure if it is going to work. It has about 2.7 negative camber and helps to bring the top of the wheel inwards.





http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z41/myphotos123456/20160514-256A22541010ths-ZF-10176-48055-1-001-032.jpg (http://s188.photobucket.com/user/myphotos123456/media/20160514-256A22541010ths-ZF-10176-48055-1-001-032.jpg.html)

[cbaclawski]

I'm going to offer a little different opinion -
I would suggest sticking to the stock front tires until you feel you can overdrive the car's capabilities. I don't expect that will happen for most people in a summer or two or at least a couple sets of tires for the track. This will allow you to just use the rims you have for now, and also help save some $ and maintenance replacing the front wheel bearings. The larger front wheels with their extra grip put too much load on the wheel bearings and won't last. There is no good upgrade available. I'm not even sure there are good options for the stock bearings, you can spend a lot of time searching this issue on the forum and elsewhere.

With the suspension, again, I would stick with semi-stock for now and you want to make sure the Bilstein shocks are in good condition (if they haven't been previously rebuilt they are most likely due). Send them out to Delta
Vee and they can rebuild them to stock specs, or upgrade the setting to something more suitable to your track use. Call them to discuss. You will need to do this in the fall to have them back in by the spring, so don't put this off.
Make sure the rest of the FX3 suspension works as it should including the actuators. The FX3 is a good suspension and works well with the ZR-1.

I second the Dewitts radiator suggestion. It's good for track use to help keep the temps down.

thanks for the advice, Sounds reasonable. I think I should follow your advice, and just get a decent set of tires for the stock rims and get a feel for it before making changes.

as far as rebuilding the shocks, I almost certainly don't have the patience for that. ;)