NO ZINK IN THE MOBILE 1 OIL ANYMORE

[WB9MCW]

DAW THIS ON THE NET SERV AND THOUGHT IT WOULD MAKE AN INTERESTING THREAD FOR COMMENTS HERE---WHAT DO YOU THINK/KNOW ABT THIS ISSUE???

Has Anyone read up on the effects that the removal of Zinc Phosphate from oil is having on engines. We had a speaker at my local corvette club (Corvette Club of Delaware Valley) meeting speaking about this. Evidently the federal government has mandated the zinc removal and it is causing engine problems. This particular gentleman was running diesel truck oil in his cars in 2006 because it still had it but is being removed per mandate in 2007. He is now running Comp Cam break-in additive (has Zinc)in his oil. He has older Corvettes and various other cars (Ferrari's, etc.) so Synthetic oil is not involved.
Is anyone familiar with this and what about synthetic (Mobil 1)??

This is from memory so it is a bit vague. A year or so ago there was
a thread here that discussed this topic related specifically to Mobil 1's
New 'Advanced' formula (zinc eliminated). The discussion at that time
indicated that some people (as I recall Hib offered some insight at the
time) were using Mobil 1 motorcycle specification oil which was supposed
to retain the zinc at that time. Also it was mentioned that Mobil 1,
15-50 weight oil retained the zinc phosphate additive . I use Mobil 1
combined 15-50 with 10-30 weight which seems to help with start up chain
rattle and purchased a large quantity of the "old" formula 15-50 to
benefit from the zinc content. (Mixed weight oil is a personal decision,
not OEM supported and subject to debate among members of this list. This
is not a recommendation). There was good information in that thread and
you may benefit from an archive search or recollections from some that
have a better memory. John R Sullivan '91 Polo Saddle #283 Original
owner.

My understanding from this discussion is zinc is no longer in the Motorcycle oil and we all should be looking for a suitable replacement. I will check out the archive. I must have missed that thread


I found this information - I think it was also mentioned in a
relatively recent issue of either Vette or Corvette fever. It seems
to talk mostly about older flat-tappet engines.

"...reduce the amount of ZDDP (zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) in
street-legal, gasoline-engine motor oils. After all, they weren't
needed with modern roller lifters and overhead-cam followers. The
reduction first started in the mid-'80s, and it has been a gradual
process, but the latest API SM and GF-4 specs have reduced ZDDP
content to such an extent that the new oils may not provide adequate
protection for older, flat-tappet-equipped vehicles running nonstock,
performance cams and valvetrains.


http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html


SO DOES IT MEAN WE DO NOT HAVE TO WORRY ABT THIS ISSUE IN THE LT-5??? OR DO WE???

MY GUESS IS WE DO NOT SINCE WE DO NOT HAVE FLAT TOP ROCKERS???

[Bill]

Was reading the same emails last night and had the same thoughts. When was ZDDP removed from Mobile 1? Is there a ZDDP stand alone additive available? Will the addition of ZDDP be bad for our cats? I'm just full of questions this morning.:confused: Also read that ZDDP is being removed from heavy diesel oils this year.

[DaveK]

Hi

I was one of the posters on the maillist, I also found this article on additives and ZDDP -

http://www.performancemotoroil.com/truth_about_oil_additives.html

which also suggests it's not such a big deal perhaps. For example:

"The zinc in your oil comes into play only when there is actual metal-to-metal con tact within your engine, which should never occur under normal operating conditions"

So presumably as long as you're not starving the oil from parts of your engine, it should be okay.

It seems unlikely to me that oil companies would make changes that would end up causing damage to customers engines. I know we're talking about 'high performance' engines here, but I would imagine that your typical oriental 'buzz bomb' isn't too dissimilar in terms of loads per component.

Internet scare perhaps?

[Aurora40]

It seems unlikely to me that oil companies would make changes that would end up causing damage to customers engines.
Well, they'll make any changes the goverment mandates...

[Aurora40]

MY GUESS IS WE DO NOT SINCE WE DO NOT HAVE FLAT TOP ROCKERS???
I believe we do have flat lifters, i.e. they slide along the cam lobes they are not roller lifters. The first gen Northstar motors also had that, they didn't get roller lifters until the 2000 redesign.

[DaveK]

"...reduce the amount of ZDDP (zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate) in
street-legal, gasoline-engine motor oils. After all, they weren't
needed with modern roller lifters and overhead-cam followers..."

The government can obviously mandate anything they can get away with, but I doubt that the oil companies (and their huge lobbying groups) would go along with it if they were opening themselves up to who know's what lawsuits by deliberately creating a product that will knowingly damage what is bound to be a large number of engines?

It just seems to me to have the hallmarks of internet hysteria - a couple of guys do engine builds, dont use the right assembly lube and screw their engines up. Of course they could never make a mistake so they find a convenient scapegoat. You know how it goes.

Has anyone any first hand experience or attributable data on damage caused by this? I have a completely open mind - but rumours posted on the internet aren't evidence.

[TommyL]

Interesting topic :happy1:

[WB9MCW]

I believe we do have flat lifters, i.e. they slide along the cam lobes they are not roller lifters. The first gen Northstar motors also had that, they didn't get roller lifters until the 2000 redesign.


Yes that was my way of starting the debate and quest for the answer. Are we flat-do we need need to worry?:icon_scra

[Aurora40]

do we need need to worry?
I have no idea. I can say I'm not worried though. I'll just keep on using M1 EP 10w-30 unless some day something conclusive is shown or some better (cheaper, easier to find, etc) alternative comes up. I can't imagine having to order my motor oil or find a distributor. If I can't pick it up from the store on the way home from work, I'm not interested.

[TommyL]

What about "Royal Purple" does it have this Zink in it? Does anyone use Royal Purple?

[DaveK]

I thought I'd go straight to source so to speak and contacted the Mobil support people, here's their response in full.

"Thank you for your inquiry,

The new ILSAC GF-4 motor oils (10W30 and lower viscosities) do have reduced (0.08%) ZDDP in the formulation for longer longevity of the catalyst converter and system. This is not a problem on newer vehicle designs that utilize the roller cam, valve train technology however, if you have flat tappet cam, valve train technology you generally want higher ZDDP levels. Mobil1 15W50's, Mobil1 diesel motor oils, Mobil1 motorcycle motor oils and Mobil1 High Mileage 10W30 and 10W40 have high ZDDP levels and would be the best choices for these engines."

Hope that helps.

[WB9MCW]

So now the big ? still is are we roller or are we flat---hmmm- the puck looks pretty flat to me IMO. What do the rest of you think??? Until is was pointed out to me as of recent I did not know that we actually have "hydraullic action" and the PUCK is a lifter of sorts!!!

[DaveK]

Perhaps it doesn't matter too much - using the Mobil1 10w30 High mileage then you'd get the zinc anyway?

[WB9MCW]

good point Dave perhaps you cannot have too much zink---well in your lt-5 engine anyway!!!

[FU]

Interesting article :

http://www.svmgcc.org/tech_tips/oil_is_killing.htm

[WB9MCW]

YES VERY GOOD FU2 BUT STILL WAITING FOR THE OPINION ON IF OUR PUCK IS FLAT AND A CONCERN---SEEMS FROM THE ARTICLE THAT THE ZINK IS A NICE ADDITIVE FOR ANY COMPLEX ENGINE WITH LOTS OF HIGH PSI WEAR POINTS---GEE DOES A 7,200 RPM LT-5 QUALIFY----HMMMM

[Bill]

Looks pretty flat to me. the picture is top and bottom views top mates with the valve the bottom to the cam. No rollers here.
http://home.comcast.net/~bsoomann/folower.jpg

[WB9MCW]

Well that is what I figured all along Bill after all taht pic was made for me since I did not know that we even had any hydraullic lifter---I though it was all solid---anyway soundz like high zinc is good for the engine and bad for the cats---hey though plugged cats is no biggie to fix vs a worn out engine---so do we all think it is best to use the additive by gm for break in all the time now when ever we change the mobile 1 synth oil??? an extra 12 bucks is not a big deal when the oil change is high $$$ to begin with--- would be nice to have the tuners chime in with their two cents worth!!!

[Bill]

Thats where I am Brian. Hoping some one would pop in with a recommendation based on this information. What I have seen so far has me leaning toward "red line". Still putting my engine back together so not ready for oil yet, but soon.

[FU]

I use a quart or two of 15-50 Racing oil (Torco etc) in with my Mobil one oil changes. Been doin this for years in leu of the diminishing zinc. Is it overkill or necessary ? I do not know. It sure isn't hurting.
Just switching over to Red Line Racing oil might just be another way :thumbsup:

[TommyL]

Interesting topic. I would still like to know about Royal Purple oil, does it have the Zink needed for older cars? Is there a good additive one can add to an oil change? What is one to do if the newer oil isnt good for older cars? (could be an expensive lesson) I will be changing the oil in both my Zs in the spring and would like to know the best oil to use. I have a rather large supply of M1 super syn 10w30 that I purchased on sale about a year ago and I am thinking there maybe some better blood for the LT-5. I have used M1 for about 10 years now and haven't had any issues. I know this maybe be hype but these motors are very expensive to repair and parts are limited so for the extra cost of of a good syn oil, I will use whatever is reccomended as being the best for an older engine.

Maybe traditional Dino oil would be better then the new synthetics?

[WB9MCW]

" Is there a good additive one can add to an oil change? "

Well according to the General---

From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).

So what I plan to do= the Mobile 1 and EOS. :thumbsup:

Unless a better idea comes along :icon_scra:sign13:

[bobbyhi]

" Is there a good additive one can add to an oil change? "

Well according to the General---

From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).

So what I plan to do= the Mobile 1 and EOS. :thumbsup:

Unless a better idea comes along :icon_scra:sign13:

If the Mobil 1 for older engines has more zinc why not just it????

[DaveK]

If the Mobil 1 for older engines has more zinc why not just it????

That's what I'm planning to do. Canadian Tire here carries the Mobil1 High Mileage 10W30 so I'll use that.

[WB9MCW]

Good point proly a better deal---Will it have enough though???

"The new ILSAC GF-4 motor oils (10W30 and lower viscosities) do have reduced (0.08%) ZDDP in the formulation for longer longevity of the catalyst converter and system. This is not a problem on newer vehicle designs that utilize the roller cam, valve train technology however, if you have flat tappet cam, valve train technology you generally want higher ZDDP levels. Mobil1 15W50's, Mobil1 diesel motor oils, Mobil1 motorcycle motor oils and Mobil1 High Mileage 10W30 and 10W40 have high ZDDP levels and would be the best choices for these engines."

I wonder how high is high??? Bet the EOS is a lot higher---could too much zinc be a bad thing I wonder---somehow I think not!!!

[bobbyhi]

Bryan,

I'm not going to worry about it.

[tf95ZR1]

FYI and FWIW, this is from a C4 parts CD I have:

"% zinc is the amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti- wear additive. The zinc is only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine. Hopefully the oil will do its job and this will rarely occur, but if it does, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing and wear. A level of .11% is enough to protect an automobile engine for the extended oil drain interval, under normal use. Those of you with high revving, air cooled motorcycles or turbo charged cars or bikes might want to look at the oils with the higher zinc content. More doesn't give you better protection, it gives you longer protection if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high.

The Data: (Note: this data is mostly from 1991 and is for SG rated oils. Some of the data is current, and I am working on collecting the most recent data. I have found over the years that the "better" oils remain the "better" oils. It is still valid as a place to start in your own search. The formulation of oils is constantly being updated and subject to change by the manufacturer at any time. The best thing to do is collect data on the oils you are interested in directly from the oil company.)

[An * after the oil name indicates current SH rated version.]

Listed alphabetically. Empty cells indicate the data was not available.

Brand VI Flash Pour %
ash %
zinc
20W-50
AMSOIL* 151 507 -45
AMSOIL Series 2000* 155 474 -47
Castrol GTX* 122 440 -15 .85 .12
Castrol Syntec Blend* 135 440 -17 .105
Chevron Supreme* 140 428 -17 <1
Exxon High Performance 119 419 -13 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 125 465 -30 1.0
Kendall GT-1 129 390 -25 1.0 .16
Pennzoil GT Perf. 120 460 -10 .9
Quaker State Perf.* 121 440 -20
Quaker State Motorcycle 140 440 -25
Red Line 150 503 -49
Shell Fire and Ice* 126 450 -10 .9 .12
Shell Truck Guard* 130 450 -15 1.0 .12
Spectro Golden 4 174 440 -35 .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 174 440 -35 .13
Ultra Chem 190 455 -34
Unocal 121 432 -11 .74 .12
Valvoline All Climate 125 430 -10 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 140 440 -10 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 140 425 -10 1.2 .20
Valvoline DuraBlend 126 455 -17 <1.5 .125
Valvoline Synthetic 146 465 -40 <1.5 .12
15W-50
Mobil 1 170 470 -55
Mystic JT8 144 420 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 152 503 -49
5W-50
Castrol Syntec* 175 465 <-54 .102
Chevron Supreme* 175 460 -38 1.45
Quaker State Synquest* 175 460 -50
Pennzoil Performax 176 -69
5W-40
Havoline 170 450 -40 1.4
15W-40
AMSOIL* 165 462 -49
Castrol 134 415 -15 1.3 .14
Chevron Delo 400* 134 424 -38 <1
Exxon XD3 417 -11 .9 .14
Exxon XD3 Extra 135 399 -11 .95 .13
Kendall GT-1 135 410 -25 1.0 .16
Mystic JT8 142 440 -20 1.7 .15
Quaker State* 129 420 -25
Quaker State HDX* 146 440 -30 .97
Quaker State HDX Plus* 148 420 -25 1.37
Red Line 149 495 -40
Shell Rotella w/XLA* 146 414 -32 1.0 .12
Valvoline All Fleet 140 -10 1.0 .15
Valvoline DuraBlend 137 450 -17 <1.5 .125
Valvoline Turbo 140 420 -10 .99 .13
10W-30
AMSOIL* 171 464 -54
Castrol GTX* 143 415 -32 1.07 .12
Castrol Syntec Blend* 138 415 -33 .105
Castrol Syntec* 157 455 <-54 .102
Chevron Supreme* 150 419 -27 <1
Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 392 -22 .70 .11
Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 400 -31 .85 .13
Havoline Formula 3 139 430 -30 1.0
Kendall GT-1 139 390 -25 1.0 .16
Mobil 1 160 450 -65
Pennzoil PLZ Turbo 140 410 -27 1.0
Quaker State* 140 410 -30 .9
Quaker State 4x4* 135 430 -35
Red Line 139 475 -40
Shell Fire and Ice* 155 410 -35 .9 .12
Shell Rotella w/XLA* 155 405 -37 1.0 .12
Shell Truck Guard* 155 405 -35 1.0 .12
Spectro Golden M.G. 175 405 -40
Unocal Super 153 428 -33 .92 .12
Valvoline All Climate 130 410 -26 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 135 410 -26 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 130 410 -26 1.2 .20
Valvoline DuraBlend 142 440 -27 <1.5 .125
Valvoline Synthetic 140 450 -40 <1.5 .12
5W-30
AMSOIL* 186 478 -67
Castrol GTX* 160 410 -35 1.35 .12
Chevron Supreme* 167 410 -38 <1
Chevron Supreme Synt.* 169 468 -49
Exxon Superflow HP 148 392 -22 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 158 420 -40 1.0
Mobil 1 165 445 -65
Mystic JT8 161 390 -25 .95 .1
Quaker State* 155 405 -35
Quaker State Synquest* 168 450 -58
Red Line 151 455 -49
Shell Fire and Ice* 167 405 -35 .9 .12
Unocal 151 414 -33 .81 .12
Valvoline All Climate 135 405 -40 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 158 405 -40 .99 .13
Valvoline DuraBlend 162 415 -38 <1.5 .125
Valvoline Synthetic 160 435 -40 <1.5 .12"

[WB9MCW]

thnx for the info tf95ZR1 -- I see that at least in 91 the ones that listed all had the .11% that you cite as a min. I wonder what the Mobile 1 reg. oil is now(2007) zinc % wise?