ECM And Ignition Module Availability/ replacement

[-=Jeff=-]

Alright.

I know there is the chance of having the ECM Repaired, if not there is a MegaSquirt variation, although every time I inquire for a price I hear crickets..

So is there going to be a megasquirt variation, with it what do you lose?

What about the Ignition module, What happens when they break? Where is the option for replacement?

Has the the registry thought about sponsoring or helping sponsor for the creation or recreation of this part. That is truly one of the major components that if we cannot get a replacement our motors become boat anchors..

thoughts?

[LGAFF]

brought this up 3 years ago
no interest

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21115&highlight=development

I just talked to someone who does ignition module rebuilds on mercedes....gave me a company to call

[RussMcB]

I thought I had an email that mentioned the MS3-Pro (Megasquirt) price, but I can't find it. It was around $2,000.

I have it in my car and like it. The only missing functionality I've noticed is the MPG dash display.

I'm a bit ignorant about the ignition module. I'm assuming the MS3-Pro in my car is working in conjunction with the stock ignition parts.

Having the Registry work with DIY Tune for better prices is a great idea. I know the guys started the LT5 ECU because they think there's a potential market. They are also working with Graham at Lingenfelter, which is encouraging, and might help tackle the dash integration eventually.

[XfireZ51]

I don't believe the MS solution includes replacing the IM. In speaking to Graham, he thought the current ignition was more than adequate, although I have always thought it to be an extremely critical and irreplaceable piece. I'd like to see an alternative developed that takes advantage of the current CnP technology.

[-=Jeff=-]

brought this up 3 years ago
no interest

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21115&highlight=development

I just talked to someone who does ignition module rebuilds on mercedes....gave me a company to call

That is sad that there was no interest for that.

While the IM might be Adequate.. what happens when/if these start to fail?

That is more the concern of mine

Russ, I know you mentioned price, i email ed them too.. I honestly doubt it is on their website yet and I emailed months ago for info

[GOLDCYLON]

I don't believe the MS solution includes replacing the IM. In speaking to Graham, he thought the current ignition was more than adequate, although I have always thought it to be an extremely critical and irreplaceable piece. I'd like to see an alternative developed that takes advantage of the current CnP technology.

I would be happy to see at a minimum a direct replacement DIS module that at least replaces the existing DIS Module. Truth be told folks if your DIS goes bad and you cant source a replacement you car is truly a paperweight. It would be great if the registry could support somebody taking on this project. The good news is the DIS truth be told has been pretty resilient hanging out under the plenum the past 26-27 years. I don't know where the break point is. A lot of us don't want to find out. Same goes for the ECM if its not rebuildable.

[Billy Mild]

I have been dealing with older FI cars for some time now. What I have noticed is usually Cold Solder joints fail or capacitors/transistors die. Anyone who had an older TV back before they were really cheap may remember the TV repair man. They were good at working on small electronics and replacing these critical electrical components.

What we need to find an old DIS and send it off to an ECM rebuilder to see if it can be re-furbed. Such as redoing all the solder joints and replacing any questionable components. I had old TV repair shops do this for me in the past with great success.

Can anyone tell me exactly what the DIS does? Does the ECM not send any type of signal to the coils?

[A26B]

The DIS (Ignition) Module is no small project. I have been working on a replacement for well over a year now and still actively pursuing the project.

The electronics are imbedded in epoxy, making access & repair of electronic components impractical.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z224/A26B/IMG_0628_zpsg6a3q2ra.jpg (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/A26B/media/IMG_0628_zpsg6a3q2ra.jpg.html)
Add to that, the program stored in the ROM chip cannot be read & code is unknown.

The "replacement" will be plug & play into the engine harness, although the electrionic connections may be wire leads from the module to the connector instead of the present one-piece mold for all 4 connectors. It will require utilization of the aluminum mounting plate from the original DIS module.

As for the development cost, I expect it to exceed $35,000.00 to produce beta test samples. Development will include actual engine dyno sessions before releasing the beta modules.

I hadn't planned on releasing this info because ultimate unit costs, delivery schedule, etc. are not known and always have hiccups along the way, but I couldn't ignore the concern for the future of our ZR-1's.

[-=Jeff=-]

The DIS (Ignition) Module is no small project. I have been working on a replacement for well over a year now and still actively pursuing the project.

The electronics are imbedded in epoxy, making access & repair of electronic components impractical.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z224/A26B/IMG_0628_zpsg6a3q2ra.jpg (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/A26B/media/IMG_0628_zpsg6a3q2ra.jpg.html)
Add to that, the program stored in the ROM chip cannot be read & code is unknown.

The "replacement" will be plug & play into the engine harness, although the electrionic connections may be wire leads from the module to the connector instead of the present one-piece mold for all 4 connectors. It will require utilization of the aluminum mounting plate from the original DIS module.

As for the development cost, I expect it to exceed $35,000.00 to produce beta test samples. Development will include actual engine dyno sessions before releasing the beta modules.

I hadn't planned on releasing this info because ultimate unit costs, delivery schedule, etc. are not known and always have hiccups along the way, but I couldn't ignore the concern for the future of our ZR-1's.

Jerry, That is awesome that you are pursuing this. I am glad that this piece could potentially be made available. I understand it is a costly and lengthy project..

[Paul Workman]

The quest for both of these modules is a worthy endeavor, for sure! In fact, it has been kicking around for quite a while - and monitoring MS has been keenly observed.

The DIS module is critically important; made more so by limited availability of spares, and (frankly) Graham is and we're all aware of that.

I believe a Registry endeavor to resolve the availability of these critical parts is well within the purview of "Keeping The Legend Alive". At present, the club hasn't got an R&D entity or committee to address critical components. Maybe it is high time the Club should consider one? After all, these critical items aren't getting any more available with the passing years, right?

We're a NON-PROFIT organization. At the moment, the Registry budget (available to inspect by all club members on the Members Only site) is essentially balanced between dues and outlay for everything the Registry does (e.g., organizing local and regional gatherings, the FORUM licensing and maintenance, membership perks, etc.). We have to operate within the non-profit rules for tax exemption purposes.

NOT that we "can't" embark on a quest to resolve/develop (these) parts, and I believe maybe the Club should. But, we have to secure resources (people and $$$) to head up the development w/o nullifying our tax-exempt status; e.g., agreeing as a club to increase dues to fund efforts to procure say an outside source for the DIS module.

Having been involved in R&D (in a previous life), I have some ideas on some of the key points of such an endeavor, and I think the Club would benefit greatly by tapping into the enormous talent held by certain members of the organization, as well as others (e.g., Jerry) who may have already embarked on "the quest".

Discussion, pro-con, is welcome and healthy and certainly germane to the preservation of our cars . But, before volunteering "somebody or the BOD", understand it is going to require the commitment of tremendous time and effort and talent to guide the process through. And, to keep us out of legal trouble (taxes for one thing) certain steps will have to be considered and taken before any $$ collected or is diverted to the effort.

Note: Anything I've said here is w/o intent of malice, and I don't believe I have over-stepped any rules of decorum, far as being a member of the BOD goes, as it pertains to simply opening a discussing at this point. But, any Registry sanctioned/funded efforts (business) of this sort will have to be done with direct BOD involvement to assure we remain w/in legal (tax exempt) and by-laws guide lines. Independent persons/group efforts NOT entangling the Club in any way are not withstanding, of course.

:cheers:

[GOLDCYLON]

The DIS (Ignition) Module is no small project. I have been working on a replacement for well over a year now and still actively pursuing the project.

The electronics are imbedded in epoxy, making access & repair of electronic components impractical.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z224/A26B/IMG_0628_zpsg6a3q2ra.jpg (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/A26B/media/IMG_0628_zpsg6a3q2ra.jpg.html)
Add to that, the program stored in the ROM chip cannot be read & code is unknown.

The "replacement" will be plug & play into the engine harness, although the electrionic connections may be wire leads from the module to the connector instead of the present one-piece mold for all 4 connectors. It will require utilization of the aluminum mounting plate from the original DIS module.

As for the development cost, I expect it to exceed $35,000.00 to produce beta test samples. Development will include actual engine dyno sessions before releasing the beta modules.

I hadn't planned on releasing this info because ultimate unit costs, delivery schedule, etc. are not known and always have hiccups along the way, but I couldn't ignore the concern for the future of our ZR-1's.


Damn Jerry!!! This is Awesome news and Scary news at the same time. Especially the reverse engineering aspect. I will venture to guess the Epoxy that covers these units is the reason the electronics have survived the heat for so long!!!

[A26B]

Damn Jerry!!! This is Awesome news and Scary news at the same time

The scary part is, I am sure, is your concern for the ultimate cost per module. For most businesses, there are certain economic parameters, ROI, Payout, Rate of Return, and amortization of capital costs. Jerrys Gaskets is not a typical business. I can allow all of the other products to carry those parameters to keep the retail price in line, i.e. a price that will keep the ZR-1 LT5 alive.

I like to think of it as a joint effort...... All of the support that Jerrys Gaskets has received over the last 8 years, has enabled the development and manufacture of many different parts that became extinct.

[GOLDCYLON]

I have been dealing with older FI cars for some time now. What I have noticed is usually Cold Solder joints fail or capacitors/transistors die. Anyone who had an older TV back before they were really cheap may remember the TV repair man. They were good at working on small electronics and replacing these critical electrical components.

What we need to find an old DIS and send it off to an ECM rebuilder to see if it can be re-furbed. Such as redoing all the solder joints and replacing any questionable components. I had old TV repair shops do this for me in the past with great success.

Can anyone tell me exactly what the DIS does? Does the ECM not send any type of signal to the coils?

Billy DIS is an Acronym (Distributerless Ignition System) This is the LT5s electronic Distributer that is pancaked on the underside of the Plenum. If it dies. Your done.

[LGAFF]

Jerry the Mercedes Ignition Transformer is repairable and its in the same Epoxy.....

The DIS (Ignition) Module is no small project. I have been working on a replacement for well over a year now and still actively pursuing the project.

The electronics are imbedded in epoxy, making access & repair of electronic components impractical.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z224/A26B/IMG_0628_zpsg6a3q2ra.jpg (http://s190.photobucket.com/user/A26B/media/IMG_0628_zpsg6a3q2ra.jpg.html)
Add to that, the program stored in the ROM chip cannot be read & code is unknown.

The "replacement" will be plug & play into the engine harness, although the electrionic connections may be wire leads from the module to the connector instead of the present one-piece mold for all 4 connectors. It will require utilization of the aluminum mounting plate from the original DIS module.

As for the development cost, I expect it to exceed $35,000.00 to produce beta test samples. Development will include actual engine dyno sessions before releasing the beta modules.

I hadn't planned on releasing this info because ultimate unit costs, delivery schedule, etc. are not known and always have hiccups along the way, but I couldn't ignore the concern for the future of our ZR-1's.

[A26B]

Jerry the Mercedes Ignition Transformer is repairable and its in the same Epoxy.....

;) and then... there is the code issue.

[GOLDCYLON]

;) and then... there is the code issue.

So only scavenging from a dead unit and transplants are the only way forward for now. My kingdom for lack of a horseshoe mail comes to mind. I wonder why that chip cant be read.

[A26B]

So only scavenging from a dead unit and transplants are the only way forward for now. My kingdom for lack of a horseshoe mail comes to mind. I wonder why that chip cant be read.


Well, we could make new aluminum bases for each unit, but it just adds bucks to the cost.. The base will be optional as some yet-to-be-determined price.

[Billy Mild]

So there is no other way to drive the ignition?

[XfireZ51]

Jerry,

Giving any consideration to driving individual cylinder coils?

[A26B]

Jerry,

Giving any consideration to driving individual cylinder coils?

Dom,

I am a big fan of the cylinder coils, but my agenda for Jerrys Gaskets is to fill the parts vacuum with direct replacement parts that require no modifications and perform exactly as stock. By far, the bulk of my customers are only interested in keeping the ZR-1 running, in stock condition. You know me though.... personally I am a mod addict. So much so, my ZR-1 isn't really a go for a Sunday afternoon drive..... on public roads anyway;)

Billy Mild, So there is no other way to drive the ignition?


Sure there is, just requires a different system (aftermarket) that requires modifications and non-stock appearance.

[rush91]

I work for a company, that designs and produces printed circuit boards. After seeing that picture of the DIS module made me think. Could it be redesigned to modern specs? I know nothing about electronics, I'm just the inventory manager. But I honestly think it could made new. But just as someone said, it would be expensive......Maybe a group fund or something to pay for the design and production / testing? We do all of our design, engineering, production and testing in house. As far as I know we are one of the few places in the country that makes certain embedded, and printed boards.

Lol I'm not hocking where I work, but here is our website............

http://www.emacinc.com/

[-=Jeff=-]

Hi Jerry,

What Aftermarket systems are good for use with the LT5? I assume the Megasquirt will work with an external trigger wheel. I am curious of all the options currently

[A26B]

Hi Jerry,

What Aftermarket systems are good for use with the LT5? I assume the Megasquirt will work with an external trigger wheel. I am curious of all the options currently

Jeff,

Others here can answer "all the options currently" question better than I can. I think all aftermarket units will probably require a trigger wheel different than the reluctor wheel on the LT5 crank.

[-=Jeff=-]

Jeff,

Others here can answer "all the options currently" question better than I can. I think all aftermarket units will probably require a trigger wheel different than the reluctor wheel on the LT5 crank.

Fair enough.. I knew it would require an external trigger wheel

[grahambehan]

Fair enough.. I knew it would require an external trigger wheel

Megasquirt does not require any external trigger, it will work with the 9x 1x stock LT5 configuration. There are other issues though.

GB

[-=Jeff=-]

Megasquirt does not require any external trigger, it will work with the 9x 1x stock LT5 configuration. There are other issues though.

GB


Still using stock Ignition module? Or is it built in to the mega squirt ECM


What are the other issues?

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[grahambehan]

Still using stock Ignition module? Or is it built in to the mega squirt ECM


What are the other issues?

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Still using stock ign module, sees it as a single HEI coil. Problems with serial data coms to vehicle dash CCM etc.

Graham.

[-=Jeff=-]

Ah thanks for clarification


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[-=Jeff=-]

So this still is a major concern.. Do we know how many Ignition Modules have failed? If mine fails, my car would become a big paper weight. If there are other avenues for ignition they need to be explored..

[spork2367]

So this still is a major concern.. Do we know how many Ignition Modules have failed? If mine fails, my car would become a big paper weight. If there are other avenues for ignition they need to be explored..

I seriously doubt that anyone will lay down the money required to remake this item. Even if you could sell them for 1200 dollars, the going price of a NOS DIS module, you're going to sell maybe 10 when they first become available, then maybe 1 a year. That would never justify the cost to have it remade. You would lose tens of thousands of dollars on the project.

There will probably be a work around with other factory parts in the future, but not until there is zero availability of the original modules.

[-=Jeff=-]

Right, that is what I meant about other avenues..

[A26B]

I am actually engaged in producing the DIS Module right now.


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[spork2367]

I am actually engaged in producing the DIS Module right now.


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Just out of curiosity, but how many do you think you'll sell? I realize you can spread the development cost over the profit on some of your other parts, but it seems that it would still be cost prohibitive. From the standpoint of a manufacturing engineer anyway :)

[A26B]

It is cost prohibitive from any view point that requires justification, using an economic model that includes profit. Jerrys Gaskets moved into the realm of parts that make no economic sense using the common yardsticks, Payout (PO), Rate of Return (ROR & IRR), Return on Investment (ROI), etc., a few years back.

For example, in order to attract a qualified injection molding company that could perform laser scan to CAD to CNC and produce very tight tolerance parts from high shrink material, we had to be willing to manufacture 2000 of each of the six different chain guide facings. We accomplished that to supply facings some of which were not available from any readily available source. Needless to say, my grand children will be passing inventory down to their kids.

If it weren't for the ZR-1 Net Registry allowing me to use the Forum, the support from both Registry members and Forum members, patronizing & referring Jerrys Gaskets, the availability of parts might be different today.

Due to that support, to date we have purchased tooling and manufactured;
20 different gaskets
Valve Spring Seats, 4140ht
Chain Guide Access Plugs
Cam Sprocket Bolts (reuseable ARP, special order)
MAP Sensor Hoses
Dipstick Tube Seals
Crankcase Ventilation PCV Hoses (L & R)
Chain Guide Facings (all 5 different)
Cam Cover R&R Plugs
Cam Cover Fresh Air Vent Hose
Vacuum Connector (unique to 1990 only)
Dual PCV Hose, Lower
Dual PCV Hose, Top Connector
Connecting Rod Bolts (ARP special order)
Silicone Coolant Hose Set (un-branded, black, red & blue)
Main Bearings, std & 0.0005" oversize, KING Alecular
RH Secondary Cam Chain Tensioner Housing (GM second design)
Silicone Air Duct (black, red & blue)
Fuel Injector Electrical Connector Seal
Idle Air Control Valve Motor
Fuel Pressure Regulator Vacuum Hose
Oil Pump Suction Seal (93~95 models)
Oil Cooler Hoses, (manufactured in-house using Edelbrock/Russell components)

and

LT5 ATI Damper, made available & in stock after it was discontinued
Valve Stem Seals, developed aftermarket source & stock
Valve Spring Retainer Key, developed aftermarket source & stock
PermaBond A136, made available & in stock after it was discontinued
Oil Pump Carbon Seal, OEM NOS, located & acquired manufacturer overrun
Seals (all) reverse engineered from engine dimensions & application verified

and
acquired several different inventories of LT5 parts which made them more readily available from a single, easily accessible source.

Still working on more LT5 projects
DIS Module
and other parts yet to come :)

All made possible by the support of the ZR-1 community.

[tpepmeie]

... and secondary cam chains... ;)

[Dynomite]

It is cost prohibitive from any view point that requires justification, using an economic model that includes profit. Jerrys Gaskets moved into the realm of parts that make no economic sense using the common yardsticks, Payout (PO), Rate of Return (ROR & IRR), Return on Investment (ROI), etc., a few years back.

For example, in order to attract a qualified injection molding company that could perform laser scan to CAD to CNC and produce very tight tolerance parts from high shrink material, we had to be willing to manufacture 2000 of each of the six different chain guide facings. We accomplished that to supply facings some of which were not available from any readily available source. Needless to say, my grand children will be passing inventory down to their kids.

If it weren't for the ZR-1 Net Registry allowing me to use the Forum, the support from both Registry members and Forum members, patronizing & referring Jerrys Gaskets, the availability of parts might be different today.

Due to that support, to date we have purchased tooling and manufactured;
20 different gaskets
Valve Spring Seats, 4140ht
Chain Guide Access Plugs
Cam Sprocket Bolts (reuseable ARP, special order)
MAP Sensor Hoses
Dipstick Tube Seals
Crankcase Ventilation PCV Hoses (L & R)
Chain Guide Facings (all 5 different)
Cam Cover R&R Plugs
Cam Cover Fresh Air Vent Hose
Vacuum Connector (unique to 1990 only)
Dual PCV Hose, Lower
Dual PCV Hose, Top Connector
Connecting Rod Bolts (ARP special order)
Silicone Coolant Hose Set (un-branded, black, red & blue)
Main Bearings, std & 0.0005" oversize, KING Alecular
RH Secondary Cam Chain Tensioner Housing (GM second design)
Silicone Air Duct (black, red & blue)
Fuel Injector Electrical Connector Seal
Idle Air Control Valve Motor
Fuel Pressure Regulator Vacuum Hose
Oil Pump Suction Seal (93~95 models)
Oil Cooler Hoses, (manufactured in-house using Edelbrock/Russell components)

and

LT5 ATI Damper, made available & in stock after it was discontinued
Valve Stem Seals, developed aftermarket source & stock
Valve Spring Retainer Key, developed aftermarket source & stock
PermaBond A136, made available & in stock after it was discontinued
Oil Pump Carbon Seal, OEM NOS, located & acquired manufacturer overrun
Seals (all) reverse engineered from engine dimensions & application verified

and
acquired several different inventories of LT5 parts which made them more readily available from a single, easily accessible source.

Still working on more LT5 projects
DIS Module
and other parts yet to come :)

All made possible by the support of the ZR-1 community.

I am trying as best I can to keep your inventory moving :p
Same with Carter.....I am trying as best I can to keep his machining work moving ;)

And......both of you are top of the line...........quality, shipping, and prices are very reasonable....
Thank You :thumbsup:

[XfireZ51]

Jerry,

Would love to hear more n what the functional specs are for the DIS module.
Will it use the existing 9 slot reluctor? Any possibility it will allow use of CnP?
Integrate w OEM ECM?

[A26B]

The objective is to produce a direct replacement of the original module. Will plug into the harness with no modification and utilize the aluminum base from the original module to keep cost down. Will probably make some new bases though. We will see how it goes.


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[-=Jeff=-]

The objective is to produce a direct replacement of the original module. Will plug into the harness with no modification and utilize the aluminum base from the original module to keep cost down. Will probably make some new bases though. We will see how it goes.


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I hear you.. you have to walk before you can run.. Glad to see this is heading somewhere.. makes me more comfortable to hang on to my Z

[tf95ZR1]

Just one thing to say:
Jerry, you ROCK!
Thank you!

Wait, is that two things?

[RussMcB]

Yeah, it's an understatement to say we're very lucky to have Jerry and his desire to keep the ZR-1 legend alive.

[A26B]

... and secondary cam chains... ;)

You get all the credit for that Todd :cheers:

[LGAFF]

How about just an harness extension for the DIS so I don't have to break my wrist to put it back on! LOL

[Billy Mild]

What happens when this module goes bad? Has anyone had one fail?

My thought would be at that point to run CNP, and use maybe an LSx computer or stand alone mega squirt to get this engine running. That seems a bit more feasible.

[A26B]

I believe the majority of customers will want only to replace the failed DIS module with the least amount of alterations or modifications and keep it original in appearance, all at the lowest cost.


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[GOLDCYLON]

I believe the majority of customers will want only to replace the failed DIS module with the least amount of alterations or modifications and keep it original in appearance, all at the lowest cost.


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Your right Jerry but that harness extension is a great idea and an improvement over original design. Regardless Jerry thanks for all you do for the LT5 community. GC

[Dynomite]

Your right Jerry but that harness extension is a great idea and an improvement over original design. Regardless Jerry thanks for all you do for the LT5 community. GC


On my 95' when I was having trouble with INJ1 fuse blowing.....I took that harness all apart and soldered all mechanical original splices and ended up with a couple inches of additional length in the harness after retaping. Which apparently solved the INJ1 fuse issue ;)

Besides the 8 wire connector there are 3 other connections to DIS which all gained length during retaping after soldering the splices. Each connector wiring was inserted into a 1/4 inch split loom to make sure shorted wires was not the issue.


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[PhillipsLT5]

After reading this post we should all be buying all of our parts from Jerry


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[9T1 Red ZR1]

I searched 19152968 and came up with a few sites that claim to have them. This number came from Marc's site as a remanufactured unit. I don't know enough about these to know if this is really what we need for the correct ECM. Is anyone familiar with what this is?

Thanks,
Bill

[-=Jeff=-]

Was thinking about this today and thought it could use a bump..

Just curious on the challenges on this.. I know Jerry is working on something..

[Billy Mild]

LSx computer or MegaSquirt with CNP module or use late model Cayenne/928 COP coils. Thing is getting it to talk to CCM and BCM, etc.

[A26B]

Was thinking about this today and thought it could use a bump..

Just curious on the challenges on this.. I know Jerry is working on something..

Still working on it. We hit a long delay when one of the sub-contractors was obligated on another project. Back on the project now and making steady progress. One of the more obvious challenges in the initial phase is developing the receiver connectors that are molded into the OE DIS. The priority for electrical connectors is to make it all the same as the OE DIS within cost feasibility parameters. The 14 pin connector would be better if the female side was on a wire lead of about 6" in length, so that has been taken into account.

[A26B]

LSx computer or MegaSquirt with CNP module or use late model Cayenne/928 COP coils. Thing is getting it to talk to CCM and BCM, etc.

Yes, there are alternatives to the OE DIS Module. There are negatives And positive considerations, cost, complexity, better performance on modified engines, plug & play installation, modified vs stock appearance and accessibility.

Our objective is direct replacement of the OE DIS Module, without modifications in consideration of cost affordability & justification.

[-=Jeff=-]

I will say I did reach out to a few individuals I know at Continental that were there when it was Motorola Telematics and Motorola Automotive. Being the design was in the late 80's and the acquisitions along the way I am quite sure the original designs are long gone or sitting in the bottom of a box somewhere..

Also I know they are not in any of the buildings they were in when it was Motorola Automotive division, so my best guess is any Motorola documentation has been shredded..

I did try though..

to add: one guy I knew remembered the project but wasn't part of it. He felt it was like finding a needle in a haystack

[A26B]

Project in Progress
Update

The following image is the prototype circuit board and billet enclosure. It may take several more months to complete the prototype module & actual engine dyno testing, before beta test units are placed in the field.

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-nkg90o/products/920/images/2272/Prototype_BoardEnclosureB_2017-07-17lrez___38486.1501033138.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

[A1990]

Thanks Jerry.


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[XfireZ51]

Jerry,

Can u outline any of the functional specs on this? Is this strictly a direct replacement or does it incorporate any enhamcements? Is there a price point?

[A26B]

Jerry,

Can u outline any of the functional specs on this?
Not until beta testing is complete. There may be changes between concept & production.

Is this strictly a direct replacement
That is the intent.

or does it incorporate any enhamcements?
None are planned. What are you thinking of in regard to DIS Module enhancements?

Is there a price point?
Not yet. Until beta testing is satisfactorily completed, and production costs for the initial run are fixed, there is no way to calculate amortization of R&D + Cost of Goods.

[GOLDCYLON]

Great work Jerry keep it up. GC

[tf95ZR1]

Thank you, Jerry!

[mgbrv8]

Project in Progress
Update

The following image is the prototype circuit board and billet enclosure. It may take several more months to complete the prototype module & actual engine dyno testing, before beta test units are placed in the field.

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-nkg90o/products/920/images/2272/Prototype_BoardEnclosureB_2017-07-17lrez___38486.1501033138.1280.1280.jpg?c=2



Jerry have you thought about setting up a kickstarter or something of the sort to help you with the development? I'm more then positive alot of owners would like to contribute.

https://www.kickstarter.com/

Dave

[rkreigh]

Project in Progress
Update

The following image is the prototype circuit board and billet enclosure. It may take several more months to complete the prototype module & actual engine dyno testing, before beta test units are placed in the field.

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-nkg90o/products/920/images/2272/Prototype_BoardEnclosureB_2017-07-17lrez___38486.1501033138.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

dude you are the master!

but on the parallel track what anything happening with Ron and Raptor?

I'm still interested in the megasquirt and coil on plug as I have no romance with stock and someone in need can have my DIS

the megasquirt looks like if it was piggy backed into the factory setup a bit better all those dumb gauges would work for mileage I could care less I need to talk Phil into giving me his!!

Anyway, Jerry, great job. That allows you to push the easy button and keep the cars running well

I'm interested as always in turbos and the megasquirt seems the way to go or a hollley, or high end ecm I think one of the boat coils will work and fit nicely we looked at the coils from a saturn sky redline and they are close (and really cheap!!)

Graham, I'd love to hear more about tuning the turbo cars with the linc and ideas to cut over the lt5 to a bit better engine management setup

megasquirt is certainly cost effective the ms3 is down to 1200 or so with a wiring harness I don't know what the raptor plug and play deal costs but as graham points out you lose a few things on dash for mpg ect...

going to take lots of tuning time as well

[jss06c6]

I admire the dedication Jerry. I'll certainly buy one the moment you indicate it is available. Thanks again from all if us, for the work you're doing and the invested dollars to help us enjoy the LT-5😉

Sent from my QTAIR7 using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[XfireZ51]

I would agree w Ron in that if a redesign of the ICM is contemplated, then certainly incorporate the option of utilizing newer technology, ie CnP. Some may object aesthetically, but I think there alternatives for that. Implementing individual coil per cylinder allows for longer dwell times, which would benefit higher rpm operation. With hotter spark, u can increase plug gap making for a smoother idle (nice for cammed motors. The GN crowd uses CnP allowing higher boost without blowing out the spark.

[A26B]

I would agree w Ron in that if a redesign of the ICM is contemplated, then certainly incorporate the option of utilizing newer technology, ie CnP. Some may object aesthetically, but I think there alternatives for that. Implementing individual coil per cylinder allows for longer dwell times, which would benefit higher rpm operation. With hotter spark, u can increase plug gap making for a smoother idle (nice for cammed motors. The GN crowd uses CnP allowing higher boost without blowing out the spark.

I agree conceptually. Insofar as the big picture is concerned, the larger concern is for a stock function, direct replacement. My personal ZR-1 is highly modified and could likely benefit from CoP. Having said that, the segment of the market subscribing to such modifications is very small.

Spending more on R&D for non-stock bells & whistles runs the cost up higher moving the DIS Module towards economically impractical. FWIW, the DIS/ICM project would not be feasible to produce if the economics had to stand alone. It's only because we can let other item sales contribute to the cost burden, that the DIS module project is happening. We will let the performance aftermarket go for the performance enhancing products.

Re: Kickstarter suggestion
Jerrys Gaskets is a sole proprietorship, meaning I don't have partners to have to consult or communicate with about how their money is being spent, production schedules, design features, etc. Been there & done that during my real career. That's the way I would like to keep it.

We (Karen & I) retired several years ago & enjoy our freedom, such as it is. Simple is better for us, so taking on "partners" in development isn't in the cards. We have done a couple of advance "Group Buys" which in function perform like Kickstarter would with advance sales. Thanks for the suggestion though Dave.

In summary, it's the support generated by this ZR-1 Net Registry forum that has enabled Jerrys Gaskets to literally reach customers around the world. Thanks to everyone for all of your continuing support. :cheers:

[LGAFF]

Pretty amazing work Jerry!!!

[LGAFF]

PS: Maybe you can use your knowledge to address the V12 Mercedes coil issues.... $1000 per coil :(......lol

[XfireZ51]

Jerry,

Your efforts are laudable and thank you for supporting the community this way. We are finally recognizing how critical the ICM is, something I have been harping about for some time now. My premise for asking about other options stems from my belief that the LT5 was clearly ahead of its time. We see that even now when fairly straightforward modification yields significant results in performance. It would be great to see how much better it would be adapting newer technology to an already outstanding engine.

[PhillipsLT5]

Amazing that we have Jerrys support


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[Hog]

Don't feel defeated if a CNP(Coil Near Plug) like the GEN 3/4/5, the ignition setups that use an actual short spark plug wire. While there are benefits, they really don't show on the dyno over a multi coil setup.
On modified engines you might see single digit differences as compared with a single coil distributer equipped EFI setup like the 96-02 CSFI Vortec truck, which uses the same coil as the GEN 2 LT1/4/99 SBC, where the coil is seeing 8 times the duty cycle than a coil per cylinder ignition .

Great work!

[-=Jeff=-]

Awesome Jerry.. looking forward to hearing more as you progress


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[ghlkal]

At Bloomington Gold I met Tom Chou. He indicated he was involved with electrical system testing on the ZR-1. I mentioned the difficult time we had finding replacement ECMs and DIS modules.


That reminded me of this thread. Unless I missed it, have you made any progress on your project Jerry? (And, thanks for the investment you're making for the rest of us)

[spork2367]

Been a year since the last update. Any more progress on this?

[A26B]

I have been delaying my response to this thread, pending more information pertinent to the testing stage.

So far, so good with electronic testing of the DIS module software. The software handles I/O signals equating to 20,000 rpm +.

After some difficulty with engine harness connection to ECU communication, that situation has now been resolved and testing is progress towards physical operation with actual crank sensor trigger signal to ECU & DIS Module to fire spark plugs. This is the final test phase before installing the prototype DIS module in-car for real world, environmental testing.

Development has been slow but progress has been maintained, considering the scope & size of the project. The R&D scope for grass roots development has included sourcing unique connectors and packaging to make the new DIS Module a true, plug & play product. The size of the project relates to quantity & cost. If the application were for 100,000 units, solving unique manufacturing problems would be easier, but that's not the case. For the ZR-1/LT5, the limited production & associated market is small & costs have to be managed closely to keep it economically viable.

I have every confidence that this project will result in a more modern DIS module, that will be plug & play and most importantly feasible.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank Graham Behan for being the driving force behind this project. Without his continuing knowledge and willingness, this project would have never progressed beyond the idea stage. Our joint objective is to keep the LT5 viable for many years to come.

[-=Jeff=-]

That is great to hear Jerry.. Glad progress is being made

[spork2367]

Awesome! Sounds like things are coming together.

[lfalzarano]

Sounds great and you are definitely dedicated.


Lou

[Ccmano]

Jerry, while you have always had my respect. I have to say you have gone above and beyond. As the kids say these days.... Repect, man, respect!
H
:cheers:

[conesare2seconds]

:cheers: and thank you.

[32valvZ]

Wow... thats great news. Maybe we can avoid being raped for NOS or even a used piece now. Your efforts are appreciated by me and many others who will eventually need a DIS replacement.
:saluting:

[A26B]

While I appreciate all the kind words, please know that Graham Behan is the guy who really deserves all the credit.

[32valvZ]

While I appreciate all the kind words, please know that Graham Behan is the guy who really deserves all the credit.

Though I'm sure he wouldn't remember me, I had the pleasure of meeting Graham at the 2009 C4 Gathering in BG. That's the year I believe he brought the LT-5 prototypes with him.... like 4 or 5 different ones with different intakes and such... really cool stuff.

At any rate, thanks to Graham as well!! You guys are the types who will keep the ZR-1 alive for a very long time to come.

:cheers:

[jrd1990zr1]

Jerry,

My Thanks to both you and Graham Behan for taking this project on and continuing to move it forward. :handshak:

[grahambehan]

All, we are now at a stage where we are completing the final stages of software development error checking and reporting communications between the ECU and the new DIS module, as to ignition status etc. The module hardware has already been tested with simulated crank sensor inputs and the next step is to fire coils with an actual crank sensor input, will provide pictures and hopefully video when this event occurs. After that we will be testing on actual engine/vehicle.

Regards

Graham

[-=Jeff=-]

Great News Graham!!

I am curious as to what the price point of these units will be

[grahambehan]

Great News Graham!!

I am curious as to what the price point of these units will be

That's not my call, Jerry?????


Graham

[spork2367]

All, we are now at a stage where we are completing the final stages of software development error checking and reporting communications between the ECU and the new DIS module, as to ignition status etc. The module hardware has already been tested with simulated crank sensor inputs and the next step is to fire coils with an actual crank sensor input, will provide pictures and hopefully video when this event occurs. After that we will be testing on actual engine/vehicle.

Regards

Graham

I was told by someone at DIYautotune that they cracked a dash on a ford and may take another stab at the unresolved dash issues on the zr1 megaquirt. Know anything about that?

[-=Jeff=-]

That's not my call, Jerry?????


Graham

Yeah, it was directed towards Jerry, my guess is it is a bit early for the pricing

I was told by someone at DIYautotune that they cracked a dash on a ford and may take another stab at the unresolved dash issues on the zr1 megaquirt. Know anything about that?

Torqhead has it working for the LT1 cars with their ECM. Wish TorqHead would do an LT5 ECM

[grahambehan]

I was told by someone at DIYautotune that they cracked a dash on a ford and may take another stab at the unresolved dash issues on the zr1 megaquirt. Know anything about that?



I have heard that they have been reaching out to people that may be able to supply a dash and ccm for them to attempt to monitor coms and discover what the check sum and serial data packet responses are, not sure of progress.


Graham

[A26B]

Great News Graham!!

I am curious as to what the price point of these units will be

Jeff,
I simply do not know what a semi-guess price range is, let alone the final price point. Please rest assured, I will do the best I can when all the numbers are in. Right now, we are trying to wrap up the R part of R&D. Will then build a test unit, verify that, then build a few more beta test units for in-car testing. IF we get through those steps without major issues, we can finally look towards manufacturing. Manufacturing is quantity sensitive for costing, so that's a critical decision I will have to work through.

I know this is a long-winded answer to what appears to be a simple question, but it's all I've got now.... and a dedicated effort to resolve the availability issue at a feasible price point to keep the LT5 viable.

[A26B]

All, we are now at a stage where we are completing the final stages of software development error checking and reporting communications between the ECU and the new DIS module, as to ignition status etc. The module hardware has already been tested with simulated crank sensor inputs and the next step is to fire coils with an actual crank sensor input, will provide pictures and hopefully video when this event occurs. After that we will be testing on actual engine/vehicle.

Regards

Graham

Thanks for posting Graham! !

[jss06c6]

I have heard that they have been reaching out to people that may be able to supply a dash and ccm for them to attempt to monitor coms and discover what the check sum and serial data packet responses are, not sure of progress.


GrahamI've spoken to both MS and Torqhead. I have given Matt at MS the contact info for Torqhead. He said they were going to reach out to them. I'll see MS again at PRI this winter and press again. MS has the engine end down pretty well and Torqhead has the CCM data stream figured out. Really wish they would get together and sell their info to the one that wants to take an LT-5 ECM into the market!

Sent from my XT1585 using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[-=Jeff=-]

Jerry,

Thanks, I knew I was asking early.. I am sure you will do your best to meet the needs of owners

[spork2367]

I've spoken to both MS and Torqhead. I have given Matt at MS the contact info for Torqhead. He said they were going to reach out to them. I'll see MS again at PRI this winter and press again. MS has the engine end down pretty well and Torqhead has the CCM data stream figured out. Really wish they would get together and sell their info to the one that wants to take an LT-5 ECM into the market!

Sent from my XT1585 using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

I have one of the megasquirt LT5 ECUs. I would love to be able to update it for full functionality.

[-=Jeff=-]

I like that TorqHead uses an OEM PCM, that gives us OBD2 functions/data

[grahambehan]

Ignition module testing has now verified input and output signals to stock ecu with stock harness, picture attached.

Next to verify full range of ignition advance and retard per the limits in the 1995 calibration, using this because it is the maximum stock values.


Graham

[-=Jeff=-]

Graham, is that big header connector readily available from somewhere? I am in need of one for a project

[PhillipsLT5]

Ignition module testing has now verified input and output signals to stock ecu with stock harness, picture attached.

Next to verify full range of ignition advance and retard per the limits in the 1995 calibration, using this because it is the maximum stock values.


Graham

PM Sent

[Hib Halverson]

With all this discussion of the DIS module, if it were me, I still had Barney and its DIS still worked, I'd get the plenum off, remove the DIS module, clean any dirt/debris of it, spray the connector with contact cleaner, clean the mounting surfaces on the module and the plenum, then apply fresh dielectric grease per the service manual.

The grease is important because its how the module sheds heat to the plenum.

Hopefully the replacement DIS module project undertaken by Jerry and Graham is successful.

[XfireZ51]

Hib,

Are u suggesting dielectric grease for mounting of ICM?
Its white heat sink grease. Just wanted to make sure that was clear.

[A26B]

Graham, is that big header connector readily available from somewhere? I am in need of one for a project


Salvaged from an OE DIS Module for R&D

[spork2367]

Salvaged from an OE DIS Module for R&D

So is the final version going to have a plug or pigtails?

[A26B]

So is the final version going to have a plug or pigtails?


Our objective, if we can meet it, is to not mount the long connector on the board, but to bring out a pigtail with that connector on the end of the pigtail to facilitate an easier connection. That's down the road, we'll see when we get there.

[grahambehan]

Graham, is that big header connector readily available from somewhere? I am in need of one for a project

the male connector or the actual dis circuit board connector?

[-=Jeff=-]

Actual circuit board connector

[A26B]

UPDATE! DIS MODULE SPARK TEST !UPDATE

A significant milestone has been achieved. Graham Behan will be along shortly to add more technical in formation, but in the mean time.......

Spark Load Test to 8,000 rpm. Circuitry passed with flying spark from terminal to terminal without any problem.

Still photo
https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-nkg90o/products/994/images/2569/2019-03-20_First_Spark_Test_Photo00659__23689.1553190743.1 280.1280.jpg?c=2


Video with sound
https://www.facebook.com/graham.behan/videos/2356792797688592/

[-=Jeff=-]

great news Jerry

[lfalzarano]

Congrats Jerry and Graham! Outstanding!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[Ccmano]

Fantastic! Jerry, the Vimeo link is not working. Would luv to see it.
H
:cheers:

[GOLDCYLON]

Awesome news :cheers:

[A26B]

Fantastic! Jerry, the Vimeo link is not working. Would luv to see it.
H
:cheers:

Graham has it up on Facebook. I revised the link above to show the video there.

[Ccmano]

Graham has it up on Facebook. I revised the link above to show the video there.

Have you tried posting it to YouTube? I saw it on Graham’s Facebook post but the quality was poor. Good work can’t waut to see the final product.
H
:cheers:

[jss06c6]

Stellar stuff guys!! Thanks for the persistence and innovation!

Sent from my SM-G950U using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[BlackZR1]

Excellent!! And a dramatic presentation!! Congrats!!

[-=Jeff=-]

Saw the video on the registry’s Facebook page.

What are the next steps?

[Paul Workman]

Congratz on a significant milestone! Packaging/cooling, duration, and temperature cycling tests to follow, I presume. But, this is one of the most significant breakthroughs for our cars in some time! This ONE item may have a truly significant impact on market value of our cars too! "Keep the Legend Alive!":dancing

:cheers:

[grahambehan]

There are many steps to complete in the process of validating the hardware and software going forward. The video shows what actually is a pretty significant stress test for the circuits simulating a grounded plug wire. Next up will be connecting all coils and wires and debugging the code for the auto dwell function, followed by a more comprehensive test cycle with the simulator. Then connecting to a factory harness and ecu to test the est functionality. There will, no doubt, be issues found in the debugging process, but progress is being made in pretty significant steps right now.

Graham

[A26B]

This is the prototype DIS Module circuit board & billet case, that is controlling the spark firing the ignition coils in the still photo and video shown in post #106 above. It interesting to see the spark at a single coil, during the demo from idle to 8,000 rpm.

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-nkg90o/products/994/images/2570/2019-03-19_New_Board_Secured__60879.1553298071.1280.1280.j pg?c=2

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-nkg90o/products/994/images/2569/2019-03-20_First_Spark_Test_Photo00659__23689.1553190743.1 280.1280.jpg?c=2

[alexco]

Graham, I was wondering if you happen to know a part number for the mating connectors (male) for the two connectors (one 4 wire and one 2 wire) that plug into the coil pack? I would like to make a pig tail that plugs into the stock harness. Any help would be appreciated. thanks.


Alexco

[-=Jeff=-]

Jerry,

Will the final units be potted or conformal coated? Since it will live under the hood

[A26B]

Jerry,

Will the final units be potted or conformal coated? Since it will live under the hood
I'll let you know when we are done;)

[grahambehan]

:handshak:I'll let you know when we are done;)

[-=Jeff=-]

Understood, no sense putting the cart before the horse

[spork2367]

Any update on this in the last year?

[-=Jeff=-]

Any update on this in the last year?

Wow it has been a year?

I am still hopeful for a replacement ECM that is 100% functional..

[spork2367]

Wow it has been a year?

I am still hopeful for a replacement ECM that is 100% functional..

The best option there is for multiple people to contact DIYAutoTune. They built the megasquirt units that a couple of us have and not all that long ago they cracked the Ford dash and talked about maybe taking another crack at the C4 corvette. That is the only functionality remaining to be resolved.

[-=Jeff=-]

The best option there is for multiple people to contact DIYAutoTune. .

This is key, however the price point of this unit is a bit crazy as well

[RussMcB]

The best option there is for multiple people to contact DIYAutoTune. They built the megasquirt units that a couple of us have and not all that long ago they cracked the Ford dash and talked about maybe taking another crack at the C4 corvette. That is the only functionality remaining to be resolved.Thanks for that suggestion. I'll send them a question about it.

[spork2367]

This is key, however the price point of this unit is a bit crazy as well

Considering what a stand alone from haltech or other big name players would cost, it's extremely reasonable. Keep in mind, at this point they've only spread that development cost over 4-6 units thus far. And the max they will ever sell is probable in the range of 20-40...

[-=Jeff=-]

Sure I get it.. I totally get it..

But until the OEM ECMs depeleted from even being fixed, I will choose that OEM route.

That said, who do I contact at DIY auto tune asking about the GM fuel data?

[XfireZ51]

Sure I get it.. I totally get it..

But until the OEM ECMs depeleted from even being fixed, I will choose that OEM route.

That said, who do I contact at DIY auto tune asking about the GM fuel data?

:dancing

[spork2367]

Sure I get it.. I totally get it..

But until the OEM ECMs depeleted from even being fixed, I will choose that OEM route.

That said, who do I contact at DIY auto tune asking about the GM fuel data?

This was the last email I had, my previous email to him was asking why there was never a final release of this ECU:


Unresolved issues with the dash serial bus communication. We were able to run the engine itself very well. Now that we've successfully cracked communication on a Ford dash, it's likely we will take another stab at it.
Matt Cramer

DIYAutoTune Support

[-=Jeff=-]

I found an email address.. not sure it is good, last email from me was 2018

[spork2367]

I found an email address.. not sure it is good, last email from me was 2018

websales@diyautotune.com

[-=Jeff=-]

yep that is the one I have

[XfireZ51]

FYI, these people already do comms w the CCM using a 411 PCM. Unfortunately, just for LT1/LT4.
This solution would be somewhat involved for LT-5, but it would be ideal from the standpoint of providing a plentiful supply of PCMs while eliminating the need for the ICM.

https://www.torqhead.com/buy-24xlink-products.html

[spork2367]

FYI, these people already do comms w the CCM using a 411 PCM. Unfortunately, just for LT1/LT4.
This solution would be somewhat involved for LT-5, but it would be ideal from the standpoint of providing a plentiful supply of PCMs while eliminating the need for the ICM.

https://www.torqhead.com/buy-24xlink-products.html

Yup. And they are never going to make a product for the LT5 and they would have no reason to provide their proprietary knowledge to DIYautotune. Sucks.

[XfireZ51]

Yup. And they are never going to make a product for the LT5 and they would have no reason to provide their proprietary knowledge to DIYautotune. Sucks.

I wasn’t suggesting that TH could share their proprietary info w MS. Apparently, they’re swamped w interest on the LT1/4 conversion. Discussed w Paul at TH an LT5 conversion. Doable. In fact easier than the LT1/4 because we don’t need a crank sensor component. He could use our existing crank signal, and apparently could convert it to 24x for the PCM. And also use the cam signal to sync up.
Its involved in terms of needing to re-pin the harness for the LT1/4 connectors, and then convert the LT5 cal to the 411.
The 411 can accomodate MAP, but we would need additional fuel and spark tables plus ability to control secondaries, all of which doesn’t exist for other LT or LS motors.
Th solution that =Jeff= has implemented would be outstanding if it could ever be replicated.

[spork2367]

I wasn’t suggesting that TH could share their proprietary info w MS. Apparently, they’re swamped w interest on the LT1/4 conversion. Discussed w Paul at TH an LT5 conversion. Doable. In fact easier than the LT1/4 because we don’t need a crank sensor component. He could use our existing crank signal, and apparently could convert it to 24x for the PCM. And also use the cam signal to sync up.
Its involved in terms of needing to re-pin the harness for the LT1/4 connectors, and then convert the LT5 cal to the 411.
The 411 can accomodate MAP, but we would need additional fuel and spark tables plus ability to control secondaries, all of which doesn’t exist for other LT or LS motors.
Th solution that =Jeff= has implemented would be outstanding if it could ever be replicated.

Couple things to clarify. DIYAutotune isn't Megasquirt. They are an authorized manufacturer/distributor. I find it hard to believe that doing 16 injectors with our DIS is easier than simply adding a crank sensor to an LT1...

What solution has =Jeff= implemented?

[-=Jeff=-]

What solution has =Jeff= implemented?

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30749&highlight=ignition

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=30486&highlight=ignition

[jss06c6]

Having personally installed a 24X Torqhead system on a Procharged 1996 LT-1 and having had discussions about 3 months ago with Paul at Torqhead, he indicated that he had looked at the LT-5 possibility. It wasn't a big leap, but obviously market demand was not as large as the LT-1 LT-4 market is. Pure economics..

Having full control of the Procharged LT-1 running a 4L60e using HP Tuners highlights how limited the OBDI architecture is. I would never have been able to manage this build trying to use software like LT-1 edit. I enjoy tuning the LT-5 with TunerPro RT, but a full OBD2 setup with coil on plug for the LT-5 would be a real treat..1172211723

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[XfireZ51]

Couple things to clarify. DIYAutotune isn't Megasquirt. They are an authorized manufacturer/distributor. I find it hard to believe that doing 16 injectors with our DIS is easier than simply adding a crank sensor to an LT1...

What solution has =Jeff= implemented?

I don’t believe I said that. What I said is that there would be no need to add a crank sensor since we already have one while the LT1 does not. That reduces things from a hardware cost standpoint. Plus the LT5 has a cam signal which TH would also use.
Having said that the software for a 411 works fine for an LT1/LT4, but would require additional programming for routines managing turning secondaries on and off (not necessarily difficult since it just provides a ground for the secondary relays) but the Port Throttle Open VE and SA tables would need to be added.
TH would require either repinning or replacing the LT5 engine harness with connectors that are the same as the LT1/4 connectors. I’ve repinned harnesses before. A bit tedious but I’d do it for a solution like this. And then there’s the task of “translating” the LT5 calibration into the LSx OBD2 parameters.
An initial cal could be created for stock, but with modified motors your on ur own. And as far as I know TH comms w the CCM is only supported for 94-96 LT1/4, not earlier L98 of which the LT5 is a derivative.

And yes I know DIY is a distributor of MegaSquirt.

Steve,

Would love to see what CnP would do for LT5 particularly modified ones.

[spork2367]

I don’t believe I said that. What I said is that there would be no need to add a crank sensor since we already have one while the LT1 does not. That reduces things from a hardware cost standpoint. Plus the LT5 has a cam signal which TH would also use.
Having said that the software for a 411 works fine for an LT1/LT4, but would require additional programming for routines managing turning secondaries on and off (not necessarily difficult since it just provides a ground for the secondary relays) but the Port Throttle Open VE and SA tables would need to be added.
TH would require either repinning or replacing the LT5 engine harness with connectors that are the same as the LT1/4 connectors. I’ve repinned harnesses before. A bit tedious but I’d do it for a solution like this. And then there’s the task of “translating” the LT5 calibration into the LSx OBD2 parameters.
An initial cal could be created for stock, but with modified motors your on ur own. And as far as I know TH comms w the CCM is only supported for 94-96 LT1/4, not earlier L98 of which the LT5 is a derivative.

And yes I know DIY is a distributor of MegaSquirt.

Steve,

Would love to see what CnP would do for LT5 particularly modified ones.

Adding a crank sensor to an engine isn't a big deal. It's more difficult on the lt1/4 due to the opti-spark and front cover design.

That being said, I paid 1700 for the DIYautotune unit when they did a run of them. That's only 400-500 dollars more than the torqhead system.

Keep in mind, the DIYautotune system supports a plethora of options the torqhead w/Gen III ECU certainly doesn't. Those things include nitrous control, boost referencing, launch control/two step, reprogramming of power key to select alternate maps, etc. On top of that, the DIYautotune ECU plugs right into the stock harness.

If you're looking for cost savings, you could do all the work DIYautotune does on your time and save a load of money. That would be the cheapest/easiest option.

If you're looking for stock driveability then the stock ECU is the way to go. There are so few stock ECU failures that there will likely always be a supply of stock ECUs from the spares that were made and wrecked cars.

And just to add, while someone mentioned previously that torqhead had the ccm datastream stuff figured out for the L98, none of their current LT1/4 options support any of that. From their manual:

"Note this upgrade is for Off-Road use only. It is important to understand some of the systems on the LT engine will be incompatible. These systems are the EVAP, Air Pump, and EGR. If you install these components on a corvette (Y-Body) you will also loose functionality with the onboard CCM and some dash functions as well as other serial communication issues.
TORQHEAD is continuously improving their products to improve compatibility of systems, so please keep an eye out for updates!!"

[XfireZ51]

No question that once u do power adders like NoX or FI to the LT5, the stock ECM has to be “crutched” at best to use them and something like the MS unit is preferable. But we do have lots of example of high power NA builds where the stock ECM works just fine.
Hadn’t heard that TH has the L98 CCM stuff worked out. Sounds like Paul may be using the EVAP, EGR and Air Pump as a backdoor for the CCM stuff.

[Pete]

How much is Megasquirt ECU?
If one don't care about CCM functions.

Pete

[spork2367]

How much is Megasquirt ECU?
If one don't care about CCM functions.

Pete

I paid 1700, but I got in when they were supposedly building a few of them. I know they told me 2400-2500 regular price. That may vary based on how busy they are.

[Pete]

I paid 1700, but I got in when they were supposedly building a few of them. I know they told me 2400-2500 regular price. That may vary based on how busy they are.


What do stock OE ECM's cost?

Pete

[spork2367]

What do stock OE ECM's cost?

Pete

I'd say the going price is 1500 (average).

[jss06c6]

Adding a crank sensor to an engine isn't a big deal. It's more difficult on the lt1/4 due to the opti-spark and front cover design.

That being said, I paid 1700 for the DIYautotune unit when they did a run of them. That's only 400-500 dollars more than the torqhead system.

Keep in mind, the DIYautotune system supports a plethora of options the torqhead w/Gen III ECU certainly doesn't. Those things include nitrous control, boost referencing, launch control/two step, reprogramming of power key to select alternate maps, etc. On top of that, the DIYautotune ECU plugs right into the stock harness.

If you're looking for cost savings, you could do all the work DIYautotune does on your time and save a load of money. That would be the cheapest/easiest option.

If you're looking for stock driveability then the stock ECU is the way to go. There are so few stock ECU failures that there will likely always be a supply of stock ECUs from the spares that were made and wrecked cars.

And just to add, while someone mentioned previously that torqhead had the ccm datastream stuff figured out for the L98, none of their current LT1/4 options support any of that. From their manual:

"Note this upgrade is for Off-Road use only. It is important to understand some of the systems on the LT engine will be incompatible. These systems are the EVAP, Air Pump, and EGR. If you install these components on a corvette (Y-Body) you will also loose functionality with the onboard CCM and some dash functions as well as other serial communication issues.
TORQHEAD is continuously improving their products to improve compatibility of systems, so please keep an eye out for updates!!"Sorry, you're wrong. Handles the CCM datastream on the LT-1/4 just fine.

Sent from my SM-G950U using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[XfireZ51]

Sorry, you're wrong. Handles the CCM datastream on the LT-1/4 just fine.

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Actually he started out w the LT1/4 first.

[spork2367]

Sorry, you're wrong. Handles the CCM datastream on the LT-1/4 just fine.

Sent from my SM-G950U using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

This is from Torqhead's manual, on their website, with a copyright date of 2019. I'm not sure why the manual would say the system doesn't support those functions if it does.

"Note this upgrade is for Off-Road use only. It is important to understand some of the systems on the LT engine will be incompatible. These systems are the EVAP, Air Pump, and EGR. If you install these components on a corvette (Y-Body) you will also loose functionality with the onboard CCM and some dash
functions as well as other serial communication issues. TORQHEAD is continuously improving their products to improve compatibility of systems, so please keep an eye out for updates!!"

Actually he started out w the LT1/4 first.

The Lt1/4 kit is all they offer. They don't have any offerings for the L98.

[XfireZ51]

Well we know that TH does have CCM comms on the LT1/4.

"Note this upgrade is for Off-Road use only. It is important to understand some of the systems on the LT engine will be incompatible. These systems are the EVAP, Air Pump, and EGR. If you install these components on a corvette (Y-Body) you will also loose functionality with the onboard CCM and some dash
functions as well as other serial communication issues“

I read this to mean that IF u try installing EGR, AIR, and EVAP, u lose CCM coms which is why I made a previous comment about how TH may have overridden these functions to achieve comms w the CCM.

[-=Jeff=-]

There are many steps to complete in the process of validating the hardware and software going forward. The video shows what actually is a pretty significant stress test for the circuits simulating a grounded plug wire. Next up will be connecting all coils and wires and debugging the code for the auto dwell function, followed by a more comprehensive test cycle with the simulator. Then connecting to a factory harness and ecu to test the est functionality. There will, no doubt, be issues found in the debugging process, but progress is being made in pretty significant steps right now.

Graham

This is the prototype DIS Module circuit board & billet case, that is controlling the spark firing the ignition coils in the still photo and video shown in post #106 above. It interesting to see the spark at a single coil, during the demo from idle to 8,000 rpm.

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-nkg90o/products/994/images/2570/2019-03-19_New_Board_Secured__60879.1553298071.1280.1280.j pg?c=2

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-nkg90o/products/994/images/2569/2019-03-20_First_Spark_Test_Photo00659__23689.1553190743.1 280.1280.jpg?c=2

HI Jerry / Graham

Any more info on this IM? just curious as I am seeing a couple hoping theirs is not bad

[grahambehan]

Hi Jeff,
Well I wish the answer was better, but here it is. This year has been quite difficult, given the circumstances. We have arrived at a point where we cannot proceed any further with the current vendor, the only part of the software that needs to be completed is the handover to ecm control of spark and the verification of that. We are actively seeking another software developer that can complete that for us. We have all the current software and the support of our original developer in this effort. We have come too far to give up at this last hurdle. Unfortunately this has been a crazy year, but it is what it is.
Regards
Graham

[-=Jeff=-]

Graham,

That is a positive answer. Thanks for the update, totally understand why it is moving slow due to the circumstances. I am glad it will be seen up to the end. Slow and steady wins the race

[Erik]

Hi Jeff,
Well I wish the answer was better, but here it is. This year has been quite difficult, given the circumstances. We have arrived at a point where we cannot proceed any further with the current vendor, the only part of the software that needs to be completed is the handover to ecm control of spark and the verification of that. We are actively seeking another software developer that can complete that for us. We have all the current software and the support of our original developer in this effort. We have come too far to give up at this last hurdle. Unfortunately this has been a crazy year, but it is what it is.
Regards
Graham

Graham, is there any way to help or support you in your endeavours?

[spork2367]

Bump for 2021. Any updates?

[A26B]

Bump for 2021. Any updates?

Yes.

The DIS Module development project has been suspended. We (Graham Behan & I ) were at a difficult decision point whether to proceed with the project or not, due entirely to the cost feasibility.

During our evaluation, a sizeable inventory of new, OEM DIS Modules became available and was acquired by Jerrys Gaskets. The cost was low enough that we could sell the new, OEM modules for less than our cost for the modules we were developing.

The critical shortage of DIS Module has been alleviated for the present, and the price point is at least bearable.

[Corvette95]

Yes.

The DIS Module development project has been suspended. We (Graham Behan & I ) were at a difficult decision point whether to proceed with the project or not, due entirely to the cost feasibility.

During our evaluation, a sizeable inventory of new, OEM DIS Modules became available and was acquired by Jerrys Gaskets. The cost was low enough that we could sell the new, OEM modules for less than our cost for the modules we were developing.

The critical shortage of DIS Module has been alleviated for the present, and the price point is at least bearable.

Whats the work around for the first #500 VIN's this DIS won't work with? I remember reading about a different gap in the crank sensor I believe but can't recall right off (asking because I have a pre-500 90). Thanks

[Corvette95]

from the FSM

[A26B]

Whats the work around for the first #500 VIN's this DIS won't work with? I remember reading about a different gap in the crank sensor I believe but can't recall right off (asking because I have a pre-500 90). Thanks

The workaround is removal of the spacer under the Crankshaft Position Sensor. Always a good idea to measure the sensor length & the depth to the crank reluctor wheel to insure the gap is correct (0.020" ~ 0.050").

The "shim" on the few early 1990 models I have seen, was stuck to the block, so you may have to look close to see it, if it is still there.

[-=Jeff=-]

Yes.

The DIS Module development project has been suspended. We (Graham Behan & I ) were at a difficult decision point whether to proceed with the project or not, due entirely to the cost feasibility.

During our evaluation, a sizeable inventory of new, OEM DIS Modules became available and was acquired by Jerrys Gaskets. The cost was low enough that we could sell the new, OEM modules for less than our cost for the modules we were developing.

The critical shortage of DIS Module has been alleviated for the present, and the price point is at least bearable.

Let's just hope people don't just buy them up to hoard them. then we will be back to where we were before.

since this sounds like a positiove and the fact that the DIS is quite stout, now if we can just find a fully working ECM replacement (Yes I know of DIYAutoTune, but technically it is not 100% fully working)


EDIT: to Add, I am sure you and Graham are doing this, but please Archive all your work for that DIS in case it needs to be revisited

[HAWAIIZR-1]

I am really glad I bought my NOS NIB GM DIS module back in 2003 when I got my first Z. I paid $400 back then and thought that was ridiculous. I have a spare ECM that was about $200 back then. I hope I never need them. Now no regrets seeing how valuable they are now.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[Erik]

EDIT: to Add, I am sure you and Graham are doing this, but please Archive all your work for that DIS in case it needs to be revisited

Definitely. This project can't be allowed to fall by the wayside. If in the future, DIS modules start failing regularly, The current supply will dry up, and no option will be available we are screwed and the value of our cars will plummet. If my choice becomes a $2000 modern component, reliable DIS module or parking my ZR-1 indefinitely, the choice becomes very easy.

[1991 Corvette ZR-1]

Considering you can spend $2,000+ on a Holley HP setup just to get started, I would gladly pay the same to be able to drive my ZR-1 past the expiration date of some of the old components. Hopefully the project gets revisited sometime in the future. Hate to hear that it has been shelved for now.

[Erik]

Just wanted to add a big thank you to Jerry for getting these for us. This could not have been an inexpensive undertaking for him to source these parts, especially with the knowledge that they likely will be sitting a while.

[A26B]

FYI:
The work product developed to this point was acquired at significant cost of money, time & effort. It goes without saying that the DIS Module project will not be tossed away & forgotten. The decision to suspend development was based on the current circumstances and in the best interest of all concerned.

Virtually every new part brought to market by Jerrys Gaskets undergoes a stringent economic evaluation with multiple factors including estimated sales volume & frequency over time to establish manufacturing quantity and ultimately the most favorable cost per item. Most of the parts made are produced with economic factors that would never justify production standing alone. The cost is supported by revenue from all other sales. No other company does that, instead viability to manufacture is based on each item individually. The limited sales of parts for a very low production engine like the LT5 do not meet standard economic parameters. Otherwise, everyone would be doing it.

As an example of one of the most extreme economics so far, for a part that had become virtually extinct and no options present;

Primary & Secondary Chain Guide Facings
To meet minimum manufacturing requirements, we had to produce 2,000 of each facing and there are 6 different pieces. Those parts were completed in 2014. To date, sales are 32 for each. The projected economics?? 442 months (that's 36.8 years) to payout. That's break-even, no profit, no time value of money, no compensation for the R&D that went into the project. My great-great grandchildren will inherit facing inventory. It needed to be done.

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Is anyone using MOTEC M1 or only in Japan?


https://www.motec.com.au/m1-series-overview/m1s-overview/

Open in google chrome for translation.


https://motec.exblog.jp/29480450/?fbclid=IwAR1hk67OYms8bsrc21D2X8yX65ijB8ygJb2n9xas DER3QP9aW4mfVH5Azlk


So this eliminates the ECM and the DIS?


https://youtu.be/C4uBOvGq7jA



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[tf95ZR1]

That's break-even, no profit, no time value of money, no compensation for the R&D that went into the project. My great-great grandchildren will inherit facing inventory. It needed to be done.

As always, thank you Jerry for all that you do for our hobby. I do, though,
remember the smile on your face being around all us ZR-1 wackos in
Bowling Green. Especially those from Mercury Marine! You are one of us.

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Jerry, Graham and many others, yes, thank you for all the contributions to keep the dream alive and the legend living. If not, I don?t know what the future of these cars would be even this far and beyond more so. It?s great that a lot of folks are willing to not give up on or be scared to try to keep these cars going.


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[spork2367]

Let's just hope people don't just buy them up to hoard them. then we will be back to where we were before.

since this sounds like a positiove and the fact that the DIS is quite stout, now if we can just find a fully working ECM replacement (Yes I know of DIYAutoTune, but technically it is not 100% fully working)


EDIT: to Add, I am sure you and Graham are doing this, but please Archive all your work for that DIS in case it needs to be revisited

Hoarding is all people do with them. Let's face it, there have been less than 10 documented failures and between totaled cars and spares there are hundreds and hundreds of DIS units out there.

I am really glad I bought my NOS NIB GM DIS module back in 2003 when I got my first Z. I paid $400 back then and thought that was ridiculous. I have a spare ECM that was about $200 back then. I hope I never need them. Now no regrets seeing how valuable they are now.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

I bought a NIB DIS last year on the forum for 600.00.

Definitely. This project can't be allowed to fall by the wayside. If in the future, DIS modules start failing regularly, The current supply will dry up, and no option will be available we are screwed and the value of our cars will plummet. If my choice becomes a $2000 modern component, reliable DIS module or parking my ZR-1 indefinitely, the choice becomes very easy.

As the mean mileage of cars increases, there will be more failures. Will that number ever reach or exceed the number of spares currently available (and those that will become available in the future)? Unlikely based on the failure rate up until now.

FYI:
The work product developed to this point was acquired at significant cost of money, time & effort. It goes without saying that the DIS Module project will not be tossed away & forgotten. The decision to suspend development was based on the current circumstances and in the best interest of all concerned.


We certainly appreciate the time and effort you have put into keeping our cars going.

[-=Jeff=-]

The workaround is removal of the spacer under the Crankshaft Position Sensor. Always a good idea to measure the sensor length & the depth to the crank reluctor wheel to insure the gap is correct (0.020" ~ 0.050").

The "shim" on the few early 1990 models I have seen, was stuck to the block, so you may have to look close to see it, if it is still there.

I seem to recall my 1990 has a washer (or is that the shim) on the cranks sensor when I replaced it (#1051)


FYI:
The work product developed to this point was acquired at significant cost of money, time & effort. It goes without saying that the DIS Module project will not be tossed away & forgotten. The decision to suspend development was based on the current circumstances and in the best interest of all concerned.


Totally understand this and thank you for your continued effort to support these cars

[Jagdpanzer]

My understanding is the early 1990 DIS ignition modules did not have control circuitry which limited the maximum voltage signal generated by the crankshaft magnetic pickup at high engine RPMs. With the magnetic pickups the LT5 use the faster the crankshaft turns higher the voltage output will be.
To limit the output voltage from becoming to high for the DIS electronic components they installed shims to increase the air gap between the magnetic sensor tip and crankshaft slotted reluctor wheel.
Later DIS ignition modules incorporated circuitry which automatically limited the voltage the crankshaft sensor could generate to a safe level therefore installing shims was no longer required.


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[rkreigh]

Jerry this seems to be the most sensible approach. With the small number of failure rates, the cars are "dying" fast enough to put used parts in the bin.


Graham, with all the torture to do this DIS, any interest in dusting off a COP version of MS3 pro, or Holley Terminator X?


The stock DIS is fine, but with the high cost of the parts, and the superior processing speed and capabilities of the aftermarket ecm stuff, it seems like a foregone conclusion to go this route as it's both cheaper and better and I don't really care about the CCM stuff that much.


no doubt the stock stuff is very advanced and can support "the wildest dreams" and hp levels to 700 and more, but I would rather have the tune on the fly, advanced monitoring, and especially the triggers than can save the engine.


After looking at all the expensive parts inside the LSV I again faced the dim realization that the car would be too expensive for me to fix. Fortunately, no real hard parts were damaged and Phil saved me a bunch of $$ coming to the rescue with bearings chains, and those hard to find tools!!!


With the talent of these folks, the LT5 history is bright indeed.



Thanks Jerry, Graham, and Phil for the hard core engineering support needed to understand and modify these complex systems!! As Graham knows, the OEM spend a right healthy sum to make headway on projects like these with quite a few folks!!


Maybe we can draw Corey in as he has the right expertise to add. Wisdom in many council.