Clutch Out, Which Should I Buy?

[BigIke]

So clutch is slipping in gears 3 and up.

If I'm going to change it I'd like to do it all; FW, clutch kit, short throw shifter, headers.

Looking at
1. 198551 Fidonza FW - 350$
2. DF930140 Centerforce - 675$
3. ZFdoc lockout shifter - 250$
3. Maximizer headers - 500$
4. Henderson tune -300$

Anyone have an opinion on the parts?

Thanks!
Jay

[XfireZ51]

If there hasn't been a significant increase in power from stock, the LT-1 Camaro clutch disk and stock pressure plate work just fine. Hurst short throw shifter is also a less expensive alternative.

[GOLDCYLON]

Recommned the ZFDOC shifter is worth the extra money

[BigIke]

I don't think i've ever just replaced a disk before. Thats okay?

[BigIke]

Recommned the ZFDOC shifter is worth the extra money

I definitely want to keep the stock reverse lockout. Always here good stuff about ZFDoc.

[Kevin]

If you're not drag racing it you can go with the l98 or lt1/4

[We Gone]

??? I thought the splines on the ZF for a ZR-1 were different from a base Corvette ZF??

[cvette98pacecar]

Don't play games with 30-year-old technology. Go right to Jerry and buy the ram dual disk setup. You won't be disappointed.
As for the short throw shifter, it is a preference. A good driver will get through the gears equally as fast.

You will be able to sell your flywheel, Slave cylinder, throwout bearing and clutch fork.
400.00 worth of parts.
Or you can do like I do and give them away to members that need them.

http://www.jerrysgaskets.com/clutch-kit-ram-force-9-5-dual-disc-organic-89-92-0d1/

[Kevin]

??? I thought the splines on the ZF for a ZR-1 were different from a base Corvette ZF??

The flywheel bolts are different we need shorter

[efnfast]

Don't play games with 30-year-old technology. Go right to Jerry and buy the ram dual disk setup. You won't be disappointed.
As for the short throw shifter, it is a preference. A good driver will get through the gears equally as fast.

You will be able to sell your flywheel, Slave cylinder, throwout bearing and clutch fork.
400.00 worth of parts.
Or you can do like I do and give them away to members that need them.

http://www.jerrysgaskets.com/clutch-kit-ram-force-9-5-dual-disc-organic-89-92-0d1/
Robert, do you have experience with this? I do.

[XfireZ51]

??? I thought the splines on the ZF for a ZR-1 were different from a base Corvette ZF??

Input shaft is shorter for base C4.

[FU]

Listen to the above , Jerry has the right RAM system for you.

[efnfast]

Listen to the above , Jerry has the right RAM system for you.
Frank, do you have experiance with the Ram stuff? I do.

[rbidwell]

If you are close to Henderson Performance, ask him about the clutch and pressure plate out of my car. Very few easy miles. They are replaced as they may not have handled my power increase. Will sell cheap.

[BigIke]

Bidwell, what was the clutch?

I spoke with Jim at length, I like how my clutch engages and disengages. Looks like i'll be going with a NOS pressure plate and clutch, will reface the flywheel.

[rbidwell]

I'm not sure what clutch it is. I had put in when SGC did the 368 build. I doubt if is has 5000 miles on it. I used it with an aluminum flywheel. I'm sure Corey can give you better information. Good luck with your project.

Ron Bidwell

[Kevin]

Bidwell, what was the clutch?

I spoke with Jim at length, I like how my clutch engages and disengages. Looks like i'll be going with a NOS pressure plate and clutch, will reface the flywheel.

you can't reface the flywheel

[WVZR-1]

you can't reface the flywheel

Not necessarily correct, I believe that Jandik actually "resells" them. DMF's have been resurfaced for years but successfully only by "the talented few".

[FU]

Frank, do you have experiance with the Ram stuff? I do.

Been using the RAM DD in my car since 2010.

[A26B]

Not necessarily correct, I believe that Jandik actually "resells" them. DMF's have been resurfaced for years but successfully only by "the talented few".

I will confirm Dave's statement. I was talking to Jim J. just 2 days ago & this specific topic came up. Doing the job correctly does require "the talented few".

[cvette98pacecar]

Robert, do you have experience with this? I do.

Steve, if you are talking about the shifter the answer is yes, I have one of each installed in each Callaway.
As for the Ram dual disk,I do not as of yet. All of my past race cars had Powerglide transmissions and currently none of my Corvettes need a clutch so I have not updated to the RAM. Black LPE will be the first to get one. I have talked with several of our members with the big HP big cube cars and they sware by them.

My thought is if you are going to resurface your DMF, recondition your slave cylinder, replace your clutch, throwout bearing and clutch fork. You are at somewhere between $800-$1000. Why not upgrade for an additional $300.

Have you had a bad experience with the DD?

[efnfast]

Robert, I did a Ram single disc, pressure plate, light weight flywheel, and hydraulic throw out recently. I'm not ready to post about it yet.

[cvette98pacecar]

Robert, I did a Ram single disc, pressure plate, light weight flywheel, and hydraulic throw out recently. I'm not ready to post about it yet.

Please let me know how you like it, as well the rattle compared to the fidenza. I am going to do dual disc.

[efnfast]

I'm holding judgment on how I like it. The rattle is horrible, even part way up the rpm range. I have to keep a lot of torque on the tranny to keep it quite. I can't compare to a Fidanza. I have one, but have not had it installed. The Fidanza is what started the whole clutch install.

[cvette98pacecar]

I'm holding judgment on how I like it. The rattle is horrible, even part way up the rpm range. I have to keep a lot of torque on the tranny to keep it quite. I can't compare to a Fidanza. I have one, but have not had it installed. The Fidanza is what started the whole clutch install.

Frank, Had a steel flywheel made by Ram to replace the Aluminum one. I think I am going to go that route to get rid of the rotating noise.

[Bob Eyres]

Bidwell, what was the clutch?

I spoke with Jim at length, I like how my clutch engages and disengages. Looks like i'll be going with a NOS pressure plate and clutch, will reface the flywheel.

Wise move.
I've had a number of different clutches in my car over the last 20 years and 66K mi. with a fair amount of 1/4 mi. runs. The stock units have never failed. But my car is a stock block 350.
The natural impulse is to freshen, or upgrade the clutch if you've got the trans out. But unless the faceplate on the clutch is really beat up, I'd leave the stock pressure plate in. Just pop a fresh disc in there.

I'd like to learn more about the dual-disc setups. Are there more advantages to that than it's ability to handle the extra torque of a stroker motor?

[XfireZ51]

Here's an interesting thread from the ListServ in 2002.

http://maillist.corvettemuseum.com/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0201&L=ZR1NET&F=&S=&P=21713

I have a Fidanza on my ZR and have used one for close to 10 years including on my 84 Xfire w the ZF-6 Trans-plant I did. Although I do have the neutral idle rattle, it only becomes noticeable after the car has been run hard. Part of the reason I use the Camaro disk is because it is a "sprung hub". The hub helps absorbs some of the engine pulsing responsible for the ZF gear rattle. This in combination w the use of the heavier weight Castrol trans fluid does a good job dampening the rattle which occurs only at neutral idle. I have never heard my trans rattling under gas whether just cruising or hard acceleration.
Just switched to Amsoil Manual Synchromesh for the trans. In a short drive home from Pete's garage, I honestly didn't notice any difference in shifting. Jury is still out on whether trans rattles more or less than w Castrol.

[A26B]

Wise move.
I'd like to learn more about the dual-disc setups. Are there more advantages to that than it's ability to handle the extra torque of a stroker motor?

I had a long discussion with Jim Janik a couple of days ago. If you are not familiar with Jim J's reputation, he is to the C4 clutch as Bill Boudreau (ZFDoc) is to the ZF6 transmission.

The original clutch is a good clutch. As long as you can maintain it with operative parts, stay with it. That is, unless you have more than roughly 500 RWHP.

The real problem is the ZR-1 clutch system is 20 years behind the last model produced. NOS, or NOS quality equivalent, replacement components are getting very scarce and expensive when available.

Flywheel: ZR-1 Abt $1,350 NOS. Very Rare! Unique & expensive. Can be resurfaced but only by experienced shops.
Pressure Plate: Abt $375 NOS. Very Rare! Stock is 3000lb, Shorter L98/LT1 style 2800lb. Can be re-used, resurfaced but requires adjustment to maintain clamp force
Release Bearing: Abt $225 NOS. NOS quality is non-existent & expensive. All are aftermarket Chinese mfg of poor quality.
Clutch Fork: Abt $225 NOS. NOS is virtually non-existent, Expensive & not likely to be reproduced.
Fork Ball Stud: Abt $35 NOS. NOS scarce but around. Could be reproduced but impractical due to lack of other components
Slave Cylinder: Abt $200 NOS. Rare. NOS reconditioning $75~100 with core. Aftermarket quality varies greatly


In summary all of the original ZR-1 clutch components are like a chain... only as strong as the weakest link. In this case weak means availability & cost. For the LT5, the uniqueness & limited production is what will ultimately claim extinction of the ZR-1 original clutch. There is not a large enough market to justify tooling & manufacturing of the flywheel and pressure plate for sure. Even if it did, the quality evidenced thusfar by the reproduction of the release bearing, means it's unlikely to be of serviceable quality. Jim J. told me that ALL Valeo parts today are made in China. Metallurgy is the big concern.

In terms of availability, I rank the components as follows. First on the list being the first part to become extinct.

1. Release Bearing: What is available through aftermarket suppliers is junk
2. Pressure Plate: Insofar as ZR-1 original 3000#. Possible to rebuild, not practical due to finger/spring availability & skill to properly recondition.
3. Clutch Fork: Cracked & bent can be repaired, but will eventually wear out.
4. Flywheel: Used will be around, can be reconditioned by experienced shops
5. Fork Ball Stud:
6. Slave Cylinder:
7. Clutch Disc: Common

The above reasons are why I decided to become a distributor for RAM clutches, specifically because of the HRB (Hydraulic Release Bearing). The HRB is the method of choice by auto manufacturers today. Using an HRB requires conversion from the stock style "pull=release" to the more conventional "push-release" clutch.

Even disregarding availability, the economic viability of maintaining the OEM flywheel & clutch is already an issue.

Also gone, unfortunately, is the choice of a dual mass vs single mass flywheel. Increasing the weight of single mass flywheel will lessen the transmission gear rattle caused by engine power pulses, but not as effectively. Increased idle speed and good state of tune will also help.

A few words on installation. Conversion of the ZR-1 from "pull-release" to "push-release" is not quite like a normal clutch job with simple "out with the old & in with the new," nor is it a complex job. It just requires common sense attention to details,a basic understanding of how it works, and decent mechanical skills. For our inventory, I am working on refining RAMS conversion kit and the various mix & match possibilities of flywheels & clutches, which is pretty extensive. My goal is to take RAM's excellent component kits, work with RAM to tweak it a little to become a straightforward, step-by-step, plug & play installation, complete with ZR-1 specific, instruction guide & pictures. It's going to take some time, but we are getting there.

I know this is an extensive subject & I haven't begun to address it all, but it's a start. :)

[secondchance]

Jerry,

I totally agree with your assessment. Luckily I have one fresh set of OEM replacement release bearing, clutch and pressure plate plus a couple more OEM release bearings.
Once done with what I have, I know I have no option but to give up OEM set up. Thank you for pioneering Ram dual disc set up.

[Paul Workman]

Jerry, I see the RAM clutch listed on your site as a fit for the 89-92 ZR-1s(?). That's good for me, since Ami's and mine are covered. But, curious as to what changed that the clutches wouldn't fit/be appropriate for a 93-95 MY Z?

[A26B]

Jerry, I see the RAM clutch listed on your site as a fit for the 89-92 ZR-1s(?). That's good for me, since Ami's and mine are covered. But, curious as to what changed that the clutches wouldn't fit/be appropriate for a 93-95 MY Z?
Paul,
All components are the same with the single exception being the HRB/Hydraulic Release Bearing, due to the difference in bore size, just like the stock throw out/release bearing.

[efnfast]

Paul, I'll have a better idea of my experiance with my set up first of the week. I'll be communicating with both Ram and Jerry after my trip to Conn. this weekend. Their response will affect my overall happiness of the system. -Steve

[32valvesftw]

where did you get that price on the Henderson Tune?

[edram454]

as far as clutch noise goes, a friend of mine had his stock flywheel replaced with a fidanza unit. the installer used a custom sprung hub clutch and it does not make any noise at all. It sounds like a stock set up. I am having that very same thing done to mine as we speak. fidanza flywheel with sprung hub clutch. there is lots to gain in a light flywheel.

ed ramos #3028

[XfireZ51]

Ed,

Yep. Sprung hub disk. Works well.

[Paul Workman]

as far as clutch noise goes, a friend of mine had his stock flywheel replaced with a fidanza unit. the installer used a custom sprung hub clutch and it does not make any noise at all. It sounds like a stock set up. I am having that very same thing done to mine as we speak. fidanza flywheel with sprung hub clutch. there is lots to gain in a light flywheel.

ed ramos #3028

Sprung hub and set idle at about 850-900, and if your injectors are up to snuff, you'll rarely hear a thing except maybe when it has finished a spirited run. :dancing

Fidanza...YOU-WILL-LOVE-IT!

[BigIke]

Does the sprung hub contact the pressure plate fully, like the original?

[XfireZ51]

Does the sprung hub contact the pressure plate fully, like the original?

The sprung hub itself fits into the "pocket" of the flywheel where the mounting bolts are found. Of course the disc solidly contacts the FW face. Prior to going w a dual clutch, Pete's car used the Camaro disc w no slippage.

[Paul Workman]

The sprung hub itself fits into the "pocket" of the flywheel where the mounting bolts are found. Of course the disc solidly contacts the FW face. Prior to going w a dual clutch, Pete's car used the Camaro disc w no slippage.

Well, just for clarification... Pete went through a number of clutches in that car. The Valeo clutches worked when they worked, but I can remember at least one clutch was replaced just prior to installing the RAM dual disc setup. Of course Pete could tell us for sure how many other clutches he wore out in the course of drag racing that beast.

[XfireZ51]

My point was that the Camaro disc was able to take ZR to 11.0's, so for stock or lightly modified applications it's a pretty good alternative. It's worked fine in my ZR for a number of years.

[Paul Workman]

My point was that the Camaro disc was able to take ZR to 11.0's, so for stock or lightly modified applications it's a pretty good alternative. It's worked fine in my ZR for a number of years.

Gotcha. I concur.

BTW, IIRC we use an 11" disc, no? It's been a while since I installed my (Camaro) sprung-hub disc., and IDK fer sher.

Never mind. I found it. It's an 11" (mine's a #381039 Centerforce via Summit) (http://www.summitracing.com/search?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=381039)

[BigIke]

Guys all the input was great!

I was going with an OEM, Jim spent a lot of time with me. My wife, however drug her feet and i got it in my mind to go with Jerry's Ram setup.

So i pulled the trigger on a ram flywhee, 10.5 pressure plate and sprung organic disc; also got some ARP bolts and a pilot bearing.

I'm going to donate the old slave cylinder to Jim for his time.

Can't wait to get it installed and broke in so i can enjoy gears 2-6 :)

Jay

[efnfast]

Don't get rid of your old parts yet.

[BigIke]

No, haven't pulled the tranny yet.

Ram is ordered - Jerry
Shifter ordered - Bill
SRT8 Brakes ordered - RC Concepts :)

Headers will have to wait :(

[Paul Workman]

No, haven't pulled the tranny yet.

Ram is ordered - Jerry
Shifter ordered - Bill
SRT8 Brakes ordered - RC Concepts :)

Headers will have to wait :(

Hmmmm.... Curious about the SRT8 brakes - Not finding any info (Google). Any suggestions on where to look?? These brakes to fit stock wheels??

[BigIke]

R1 Concepts, Oops

http://www.r1concepts.com/detail/productdetails/Slotted-Rotors-Kits/CES/2006/Dodge/Magnum/SRT8:/

[efnfast]

No, haven't pulled the tranny yet.

Ram is ordered - Jerry
Shifter ordered - Bill
SRT8 Brakes ordered - RC Concepts :)

Headers will have to wait :(

Good, I did the same setup as you're going to do. I may go back to stock.

[BigIke]

LOL i hear you, it's a love hate thing :)

[BigIke]

Another point, my car already rattles. you can hear it at idle and when you shut it down. Shut down is pretty loud, but i think that is the chain drive...

[efnfast]

The rattle I can live with, I expected it.