Help! no start

[Racinfan83]

Drove car to dinner. Started great, ran good. Got out of dinner, turn the key fuel pump runs, dash lights up, no solenoid click and no start. No tools. What do I try first?

[geezer]

Since you have fuel pumps working - Are you able to try push start ( 2nd gear)?

[1990 quasar blue]

Clutch safety switch? Try pumping the clutch pedal.

[LGAFF]

Easy to bypass
http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20411&highlight=Clutch+switch&page=2

[Racinfan83]

Some guys from the club pushed me and she pop started right up in 1st gear. Got it home in garage. Now to figure out why the heck it did it....
I pumped clutch hard into stop several times, security light went off when door shut and key on, beats me. Started right up after sitting a couple weeks, drove 5 miles to dinner, in there bout an hour, came out unlocked door with key, key in ignition, turned on, everything worked except nothing when turn key to start. No click no nothing.
Just now shut it off in garage and it started right back up. Twice. Now I'm afraid to drive the damn thing......

[Kevin]

it's probably the clutch switch. there isn't much you can do now other then let it cool down and then jump it out later. Used to happen to mine all the time till I jumped the switch

[Racinfan83]

Hey Kevin, since ur a Mod, please edit the title and get rid of the stuck in parking lot part???
Since now it's home..lol

[Kevin]

done my friend

[Racinfan83]

Thanks. I didn't want people wondering if I was ok. :cheers:

I guess I have some reading to do now in the solutions section so I can track this down. I may just start with a new battery and go from there... Not sure if I can fit in where the clutch switch is to mess with it.

BUT - just in case - does someone have a part # and or link to where I can get another clutch switch that is better? If I manage to get in there I would probably just change it.. ;)

[Kevin]

don't bother changing it, just jumper it out. it's better in the long run. move the seat all the way back take the roof off and get your kids to do it ;)

[Racinfan83]

Good idea but one is 27 and we don't have contact - and the other is 26 and lives in Nashville Tn until next week when he moves to Phoenix... So I guess I gotta try and get my 6'1" 208lb self wiggled in there some how.. :p

[Kevin]

skinny neighbors?

[RussMcB]

At a high level, there are two ways to attack it. One is to methodically determine why it isn't starting. The FSM has procedures to follow, but it can be a little intimidating. It is written for trained technicians with GM tools.

The other is to make guesses based on others' experiences. This forum has some very good suggestions. They helped me resolve my issue.

The problem with the second approach is later when the car is starting, you're not completely sure the real problem is fixed.

[368zr1]

1st schematic is the 90 starter circuit. Notice the clutch safety switch is on the load side of the relay. When the CCM grounds the control side of the relay the relay energizes. 12 volts from the battery flows through the the relay contacts, the clutch safety switch then to the Purple wire going to the starter solenoid.

2nd schematic shows a 93 starter circuit. I'm not sure what year GM redesigned the starter circuit. Notice the clutch safety switch is now on the control side of the relay so they obviously did this to correct a problem. When the relay closes 12 volts from the battery goes through the relay and to the Purple wire of the starter solenoid.

90 Starter circuit.

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q129/88f150xlt/90%20starter_zpsrhmotqw1.jpg (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/88f150xlt/media/90%20starter_zpsrhmotqw1.jpg.html)


93 Starter circuit.


http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q129/88f150xlt/93%20corvette%20starter%20schematic_zpsye5rom32.jp g (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/88f150xlt/media/93%20corvette%20starter%20schematic_zpsye5rom32.jp g.html)

[Racinfan83]

Thanks Guys! I have read about this multiple times - one of those things I hoped would never happen to me I guess...
Pretty sure I will do the relay deal like Dyno suggests. I'm not an electrical guru - I can run wires and such but have no idea how to read a meter or test circuits. Dyno if you can tell me a part number for that relay and where I can get one I would much appreciate it! I have no idea what SPDT or amperage or any of that is. I can see the diagram and the pics and figure out how to run the wires - just not savvy on the technical details...
Now after doing that - everything is bypassed - correct? Meaning I don't have to mess with the clutch switch or any of that? So if after doing the relay I still have a problem - it would then be the starter solenoid?
Do you solder the connections on this deal or just use quality crimp connectors?
Sorry if I'm rehashing stuff already covered elsewhere - but I have been so busy the last few months I barely have time to sleep - and the "Forum Search" function will not work on my phone...

[RussMcB]

I'll toss in a few thoughts, while you're waiting for the smarter guys to respond. :-)

I believe, the starter relay mod does NOT bypass everything (VATS, clutch, ...), but it does allow a strong 12+ volts directly (almost) from the battery to the starter. IOW, the power does not need to go through other devices first.

Relays are pretty common devices. Most auto parts sell them. They are used for things like adding more powerful lights to cars. I think I read here that our starters use up to 40 amps, so you'll want to buy one rated at least that high. I bought mine off ebay. It was rated at 75 amps (overkill) and had a handy mounting tab attached.

If you do the relay mod, spend a few extra minutes to make something to use in emergency situations that WILL bypass everything and let you touch the purple starter wire to the battery. Of course, make very sure the car is in neutral and emergency brake on or terrible things will happen.

If you have a friend to assist who is familiar with crimp-on terminals, heat shrink tubing, etc, this is an easy mod for you to tackle. It took me 1-2 hours, taking my time.

[Racinfan83]

I can do the heat shrink tubing, crimps and all that. Good with mechanical stuff - not so good with diagnosis/technical stuff...:o

[Racinfan83]

Dyno that is frickin awesome! Incredible write up. Even a dummy like me can do that.. :p;):o I have ordered that relay on EBay and will get the other stuff I need. One thing I don't quite understand on your instructions is this:
The Hot wire is attached to the Multiple Connector with a 12 gauge 1/4 inch connector
(one of the 24 inch wires made up with a 3/8 inch 12 gauge female Connector) and
secured to the top of the multiple connector as shown with a 10 mm nut).
What is the "Multiple Connector" and is this telling me I don't run any wires straight to the battery itself? Looking at the diagram Crabs posted somewhere it appears it was wired to the battery terminals?
I got the ground from the relay to chassis ground part - makes sense - just don't know what this Multiple connector is. Keep in mind I've never had the battery out of the car so I don't know what's in there...

[Racinfan83]

Ok very cool. I will get the stuff I need and tackle this in the near future. Will probably get a new battery too since I will have it out anyway. Thanks - this site is AWESOME! :cheers::saluting:

[ZR1North]

I know that the bypass jumpers, intermediate relays, etc. have worked for others - at least for a while. I tried all those fixes and had short-to -medium-term success, but I did not get total resolution until I had Marc replace the starter with the more robust solenoid. I removed all the "other fixes" once the new starter/solenoid was installed about 10,000 miles/five years ago, and I've had no problems since. I initially encountered the no-start at about 21,000 miles. I am sure Marc would provide the details re the solenoid if asked.

[gbrtng]

I know that the bypass jumpers, intermediate relays, etc. have worked for others - at least for a while. I tried all those fixes and had short-to -medium-term success, but I did not get total resolution until I had Marc replace the starter with the more robust solenoid. I removed all the "other fixes" once the new starter/solenoid was installed about 10,000 miles/five years ago, and I've had no problems since. I initially encountered the no-start at about 21,000 miles. I am sure Marc would provide the details re the solenoid if asked.

BINGO - best to isolate the problem before throwing parts at it.
Starter, starter solenoid, clutch safety switch are all possibles. A clamp-on DC ammeter can be used to measure the starter solenoid current at the clutch safety switch - there should be about (roundhouse guess) 10 to 20 amps and the solenoid should click in. If not, the solenoid may be heat-soaked and locked open = no current to the starter. Wait for a few hours to cool down and try again - if the solenoid operates and no starter action, the starter needs to be rebuilt. Pretty simple ...

[Racinfan83]

Hoping I don't have to go that far... :o

[Z51JEFF]

I've got the no start issue right now and I'm doing to switch bypass.I have an NOS switch and would like to replace it but the thing is buried and I don't have the patience to fight this thing. As far as somebody trying to find a new OEM switch they just aren't out there. KEEN CORVETTE PARTS was having these reproduced and they might have them done by now. In the past I did run a second ground from the starter relay but that didn't fix anything. I did have a second switch I sold to somebody last year,I might give him a call and see if he ever installed it.

[rhipsher]

Time for a new starter.

[WARP TEN]

Time for a new starter....Variety is the spice of life!
Me too! -- Bob
http://www.zr1.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=186&pictureid=1343

[Racinfan83]

Car sat for a week in garage. Checked battery with multimeter and it was at 11.94 volts. PO didn't mark the date on the battery that was in there so no idea how old it was. So there is a new Interstate battery going in it. I also got a relay, and made up the wires to do the above mentioned bypass relay. Hopefully I will have that all done tomorrow. I also got plenum gaskets from Jerry so if I have another issue I can pull the starter and clean the solenoid.
Thanks to all for your help!

[Racinfan83]

Yeah Dyno I've been looking at that. If I do it I will probably shoot you a PM beforehand. I'm gonna try doing the rest and hope it works for now due to time constraints. I made up the wires for the relay earlier this week, crimped, soldered, and heat shrink tubing over the connections. I have the ground wire mounted, and got the battery tonite before my Corvette Club meeting. Should be rolling again by tomorrow pm. Of course I'm taking my time, as I show the car - so I clean everything as I get to it..lol

PS - and I would love to meet the idiot engineer who put that bolt in the slot on the bottom of the side panel so you have to jam a wrench in there and worry about chipping the paint. :thumbsdo: Coulda put it the other way so you could get it from the top... SMH...:censored:

[Racinfan83]

New battery is in, relay is in, started right up! :dancing
I guess I must have wired it right..LOL :p Got the tender on it now to get a full charge on the new battery - but it fired right up even before charging it. Hopefully the end of my issue. Although I have a set of plenum gaskets just in case I have to go starter digging...

[Blownrunner]

Vats? I needed to replace my ignition key, also installed an emergency bypass.

[Racinfan83]

Pretty sure it wasn't VATS. 20k miles on the car and I had the second key that came with the car (that I don't think had ever been used) and it didn't work either. I think I had a combo pack of an old battery, and possibly a clutch switch starting to go bad. If it does it again - I go diggin for the starter...:(:rolleyes::eek:

[Z51JEFF]

Well,after bypassing the clutch switch I had a no start again so it's starter time. Not looking forward to it but gotta do it. Let the fun begin.

[Racinfan83]

Mine has started every time now since changing battery and wiring in the relay. Fingers crossed of course.... I have a set of plenum gaskets waiting because if it does it again I know where I'll be going... :(

[RussMcB]

Well,after bypassing the clutch switch I had a no start again so it's starter time. Not looking forward to it but gotta do it. Let the fun begin.Jeff, maybe you could do one last experiment before you dive in, and that would be to provide 12v directly to your starter motor (via purple wire) to see if it kicks over. That way you are bypassing several things (almost everything). It would be a shame to replace the starter if it is okay. Make sure the car is in neutral with parking brake on.

If it turns out you need to remove the plenum, it's not too bad. Plenty of help online if you have a question. Good luck.

[Z51JEFF]

Jeff, maybe you could do one last experiment before you dive in, and that would be to provide 12v directly to your starter motor (via purple wire) to see if it kicks over. That way you are bypassing several things (almost everything). It would be a shame to replace the starter if it is okay. Make sure the car is in neutral with parking brake on.

If it turns out you need to remove the plenum, it's not too bad. Plenty of help online if you have a question. Good luck.

I would like to try the extra relay first,I have one just need to find it and I'd like to install this without cutting into any factory wires if that's possible. Where's exactly is the PURPLE wire in the bundle? Russ I've had the plenum off a few time so it's no big deal,just dont want to deal with it.

[Racinfan83]

I just did the relay - I didn't take any pictures unfortunately. There are some pics in Dynos DIY for it. The purple wire is in the bundle behind the computer, and it is one of the thicker wires. NOT one connected to the computer (there are purple wires connected to it too but they are smaller). And I did have to cut the purple wire per the DIY. I made up the wires beforehand so everything was ready and all I had to do was cut the purple wire, add the connections, and done. Follow the DIY deal - I had no issues and it works fine...

[Paul Workman]

I agree 100% with Glenn (aka gbrtng) far as troubleshooting to determine WHAT is failing. What he's said is sooo important to warding off gremlins in the future. (For example: How many times have you heard the story; "I replaced this or that and it ran great...for a while. Then it began doing "it" a gain..."? By replacing this or that without first confirming the problem leaves you wide open for "Murphy's Law" to intervene and future "NO START" failures...will again appear! (In my Navy days, we used to call 'replacing parts till the problem goes away "shotgunning".:thumbsdo:)

Electrical stuff like switches seldom fail completely - at first... Instead they often (usually) become intermittent before finally failing completely. (light bulbs being an exception) SO! Changing the clutch switch "just because" will do nothing for a starter solenoid switch that is in that early stage of "start, no-start, start" routine.

Several components are in series with the starter, including the starter solenoid, and ALL must function in order for the starter motor to work.

My point is, replacing the starter won't fix a clutch safety switch going bad. That clutch safety switch doesn't give a ratz azz how "heavy duty" the new starter solenoid is, or if there is an additional relay* installed to isolate the clutch safety switch from the full solenoid current, when the switch finally becomes intermittent or flat out fails...that's it. Replacing every other component in the chain will not fix that bad switch.

*(Note: Installing the relay to remove the high current load from the clutch safety switch is a good modification; essentially arriving at essentially the "same" solution used on the 93-95 ZR-1s: to isolate high solenoid current from the clutch safety switch. Also, installing the relay will tend to prolong the degradation of the (90-92) clutch safety switch; perhaps years, due to the reduction of current required to activate the relay. And, as Scottfab once pointed out, assuring the clutch is fully engaged before turning the START switch to START, and then first releasing the START switch BEFORE releasing the clutch will go a long way toward reducing or even eliminating much of the arching within the clutch safety switch [/U]when it is first closed, and (more importantly) opened!)

Refer to Marc Haibeck's (http://zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/articles%20index.htm) web site for more detailed info on "Diagnosing Starter Issues".

[RussMcB]

I agree with Paul 100%, with these comments: I'd still do the "direct 12v to starter" test to confirm the starter is fine. It's free, not too difficult and will eliminate the starter (or identify it) as the problem.

And since you're already digging into the loom to find the purple wire, go ahead and do the relay mod because it's a good idea in itself - an improvement over stock and doesn't bypass any of the systems (clutch, ignition switch, VATS).

[Paul Workman]

Here is a schematic worked out by Marc Haibeck that has the approx. voltages you would expect to measure at the various locations between the battery and the starter. (This is for the 90-92 years only)

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/90-92starter_zps9170e748.jpg (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/6PPC_bucket/media/tech%20files/90-92starter_zps9170e748.jpg.html)

Oh, and I'm not meaning to imply one shouldn't take steps to also eliminate future potential problems, i.e., installing the relay, for example, but do it in conjunction with isolating the actual failing part (confirmed by actual testing to witness the failure before changing a part to fix the problem). Once the failure has been addressed and confirmed, replacing other related components is considered "preventive maintenance", but doing so is no substitute for actual measurements/witnessing the failure first to be completely sure the problem is fixed - verified by performing "before and after" measurements.

Please forgive me if all my blathering sounds like a "school marm" lecture.:blahblah: I used to travel the world to troubleshoot problems with communications equipment, and doing tech training, etc., and it's still in my blood, I guess. So, I hope I'm helping and not coming off otherwise. I wish to offend nobody.:cheers:

PS: On my 1990 ZR-1, (S/N 1201) it IS a purple wire that runs to the starter from the clutch switch, for what it's worth. So, I gather it could be RED on some cars. So, there's that...

[Z51JEFF]

I would really like to isolate the problem but mine is so sporadic,7 times in eight years I have no choice but to just replace parts. So far I've replaced the OEM starter relay,tied Ina second ground coming from the factory starter relay and bypassed the clutch switch. Now I would like to look into the second hi amp relay but isn't this just a bandaid so to speak? And can somebody in this thread post a simple diagram of the hi amp relay wiring? Cliff has forwarded be some links but I'm not getting the right info.

[Dynomite]

I would really like to isolate the problem but mine is so sporadic,7 times in eight years I have no choice but to just replace parts. So far I've replaced the OEM starter relay,tied Ina second ground coming from the factory starter relay and bypassed the clutch switch. Now I would like to look into the second hi amp relay but isn't this just a bandaid so to speak? And can somebody in this thread post a simple diagram of the hi amp relay wiring? Cliff has forwarded be some links but I'm not getting the right info.

The Starter Relay addition under the ECM is No Band Aid.....it is a Cure :D
In Conjunction with the Starter Solenoid Refurbishment of the Points (and checking the overall condition of the starter at the same time including armature bearings on each end) :cheers:

I could just come up there Jeff and do it for you (fix your No Start Issue) :sign10:

The 15 Minute Starter Relay Installation under the ECM and the Starter Solenoid Refurbishing with the 10 Minute Plenum Removal.
We could also do the Injector Housing TB Coolant Blocking (You will not be able to tell it has been done from outside appearance when I am finished).

But then again I am not sure of the condition of your Injector Housing Coolant Manifolds (May need heat to remove the bolts) .

It is a 3 hr drive from here in CA and too hot anyway and Acetylene Torch will not fit in the ZR-1 (with Cylinders) :p

I will leave it for Paul to help you and explain further....it is too complicated for me with all the diagrams :happy1:

Good Luck Guys :handshak:

[Z51JEFF]

The Starter Relay addition under the ECM is No Band Aid.....it is a Cure :D
In Conjunction with the Starter Solenoid Refurbishment of the Points (and checking the overall condition of the starter at the same time including armature bearings on each end) :cheers:

I could just come up there Jeff and do it for you (fix your No Start Issue) :sign10:

The 15 Minute Starter Relay Installation under the ECM and the Starter Solenoid Refurbishing with the 10 Minute Plenum Removal.
We could also do the Injector Housing TB Coolant Blocking (You will not be able to tell it has been done from outside appearance when I am finished).

But then again I am not sure of the condition of your Injector Housing Coolant Manifolds (May need heat to remove the bolts) .

It is a 3 hr drive from here in CA and too hot anyway and Acetylene Torch will not fit in the ZR-1 (with Cylinders) :p

I will leave it for Paul to help you and explain further....it is too complicated for me with all the diagrams :happy1:

Good Luck Guys :handshak:
Thank you Cliff for the offer,I just found the relay and will look for the wiring diagram you have in the solutions section.

[Dynomite]

Thank you Cliff for the offer,I just found the relay and will look for the wiring diagram you have in the solutions section.

I have too many tools and too many ideas on how to use them :sign10:
Pmed you the information links you are looking for or as you like Post #52 and Post #53 of the 500 hp LT5 Rebuild (left click on it) in my signature and then go to the third page (page 3). There are 20 posts per page and 6 pages in that 500 hp LT5 Rebuild link.........:handshak:

And....rapidly approaching 100,000 views :p

I can trip that Relay with a 9 volt battery if that will give you a clue.
It is all tccrab's fault as he started this relay business as indicated in the posts :D

There are 34 photos in Post #53 alone which is almost 6 times that allowed herein. The Reason I post links vice photos here :D