Sneak Peek from LPE

[grahambehan]

The results will be told next week in Bowling Green.

See you there.
Graham.

[FU]

Next phase top end :thumbsup::thumbsup: Many thanks !

[grahambehan]

Next phase top end :thumbsup::thumbsup: Many thanks !

And rotating assembly, liners etc.:)

[-=Jeff=-]

Cool!!

Any pictures of it with the Plenum on as well?

[grahambehan]

Cool!!

Any pictures of it with the Plenum on as well?

Build

[XfireZ51]

Graham,

Any change in plenum volume from the original? Also, obviously going w single blade TB. What were the thoughts on that?

[WydGlydJim]

Ohh..that plenum looks killer!
:thumbsup:

[tf95ZR1]

Beautiful!
Would that still fit under the hood?

[A26B]

Beautiful!
Would that still fit under the hood?

Notice, there are no injector housings.

[PhillipsLT5]

WOW! Drool

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Can't wait to hear more about this.....

[-=Jeff=-]

Notice, there are no injector housings.

SO what changed, other than the obvious heads and injector housings?

is the bottom end the same? that looks pretty cool..

[bdw18_123]

That plenum looks exactly like the plenum on the prototype Gen II LT5.

Look at the pics in this thread. Looks identical.

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13842

[-=Jeff=-]

That is because it is the gen 2 prototype

[LGAFF]

Its the same engine


Looks like the injector is a straighter shot to the valve too

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/newlt5.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/user/lgaff/media/newlt5.jpg.html)

Big question....were these heads one off weld ups for the change...or is there a casting out there somewhere?

[grahambehan]

Graham,

Any change in plenum volume from the original? Also, obviously going w single blade TB. What were the thoughts on that?

Plenum volume similar, it was intended to be electronic throttle, hence one blade.

Prototype tooling existed, no weld up, as to any more :censored:

Graham.

[WydGlydJim]

Plenum volume similar, it was intended to be electronic throttle, hence one blade.

Prototype tooling existed, no weld up, as to any more :censored:

Graham.

:wink:

[XfireZ51]

Plenum volume similar, it was intended to be electronic throttle, hence one blade.

Prototype tooling existed, no weld up, as to any more :censored:

Graham.

So is it safe to assume that original plenum volume was not THE restriction to producing further hp/tq?

[grahambehan]

So is it safe to assume that original plenum volume was not THE restriction to producing further hp/tq?

For a stock displacement engine, absolutely not, for larger displacements it is some limitation but not the main restriction. Typical rule of thumb, plenum volume should be at least engine displacement.

Graham.

[XfireZ51]

Graham,

Its interesting to note the approach GM and Ford took with similar motors at nearly the same time. I'm referring to the LT-5 v Yamaha SHO. The SHO had a "split" plenum approach and the "bundle of snakes" runners for low and high rpm operation. Was that something Lotus/Chevy had looked into?
Hope you don't mind the queries.

[grahambehan]

Graham,

Its interesting to note the approach GM and Ford took with similar motors at nearly the same time. I'm referring to the LT-5 v Yamaha SHO. The SHO had a "split" plenum approach and the "bundle of snakes" runners for low and high rpm operation. Was that something Lotus/Chevy had looked into?
Hope you don't mind the queries.

Not really, mainly due to packaging constraints, instead we had a swirl primary port with the secondary masked by the port throttle. The new engine would rely on cam profile switching to modify the torque curve.

Graham.

P.S. It's alive

[WydGlydJim]

Let me help here........

http://www.fangirlwednesday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Its-Alive.jpg

:mrgreen:

[XfireZ51]

Somebody video that motor when Graham fires it up. Post that on YouTube or something.

Graham,

How different is the engine management software etc? Any accommodations for
other ignition? Still using 9 slot reluctor?

[Locobob]

Very cool, can't wait to hear more about this project.

[USAFPILOT]

what is it? a 350?

[grahambehan]

Somebody video that motor when Graham fires it up. Post that on YouTube or something.

Graham,

How different is the engine management software etc? Any accommodations for
other ignition? Still using 9 slot reluctor?

Megasquirt, still running 9X and it is 5.7 litre;)

Testing complete, now for the presentation.

See you guy's there.

Graham.

[-=Jeff=-]

What day is your presentation?

[XfireZ51]

Megasquirt, still running 9X and it is 5.7 litre;)

Testing complete, now for the presentation.

See you guy's there.

Graham.

Is MS handling ignition or is the stock ICM doing that?

[grahambehan]

Is MS handling ignition or is the stock ICM doing that?

Stock module, all testing complete, now just working on the presentation for Friday am.

It would be interesting to change the cams to the high torque profile though just to see what that compound torque curve would look like, oh well perhaps another day.

Graham.

[Scott Clark]

Here's a video we made for Graham's presentation in Bowling Green. He called to let me know we can share it now.

Graham told me, in this configuration the Lotus target power would be 500hp at 7200rpm. On the very first pull all the way to redline, the third pull overall, it made 501.1 - at 7200rpm. That's pretty awesome considering the technology at the time. There won't ever be another project like this one.

By the time Graham and Rob were done tweaking on the tune, it was at a stout 528hp on pump gas.

Huge thanks to Graham for trusting my team with this extremely unique project. I sure hope to get to work some more with you, Graham!

https://youtu.be/X-Z5oOIgv2o

[FU]

Huge thanks to Graham for trusting my team with this extremely unique project.

May I ask what company you represent Scott ?

[-=Jeff=-]

May I ask what company you represent Scott ?

Frank, I think Scott is from Megasquirt (if I recall right from Graham's presentation)

[Scott Clark]

I'm a Calibration Engineer for DIYAutotune.com. We design and sell commercial versions of Megasquirt-based ECUs for projects like this. I was lucky to stumble onto this project while visiting Graham a few months back.

[-=Jeff=-]

I'm a Calibration Engineer for DIYAutotune.com. We design and sell commercial versions of Megasquirt-based ECUs for projects like this. I was lucky to stumble onto this project while visiting Graham a few months back.

Scott,

There was a project a few years back for a megasquirt ECm replacement for the current LT5. Is this the ECM you used here?

I am curious if there is a solution that will currently work for our cars that could replace the ECM. One of the things that I am hoping to see in a replacement is the communication with the CCM/BCM so everything works as it should.

Another question is our LT5 currently uses what seems to be an intelligent Ignition Control Module. the Module uses a reluctor located on the Crank with 9 notches (9th helps to find #1) I would really like to see a full replacement ECM and ICM that communicates with the CCM/BCM.. Were you part of the group working on the LT5 replacement ECM and were these other pieces in the scope of the project?

[Scott Clark]

Scott,

There was a project a few years back for a megasquirt ECm replacement for the current LT5. Is this the ECM you used here?

I am curious if there is a solution that will currently work for our cars that could replace the ECM. One of the things that I am hoping to see in a replacement is the communication with the CCM/BCM so everything works as it should.

Another question is our LT5 currently uses what seems to be an intelligent Ignition Control Module. the Module uses a reluctor located on the Crank with 9 notches (9th helps to find #1) I would really like to see a full replacement ECM and ICM that communicates with the CCM/BCM.. Were you part of the group working on the LT5 replacement ECM and were these other pieces in the scope of the project?


This is that same ECU, yes. I started with DIY in January this year so the project was completed before my tenure.

I understand that there are "some things not communicated to the BCM" but am not exactly sure what those are, I will ask the guys at HQ if they can elaborate.

Or if anyone here has more input about "what's missing" please speak up.

thanks!
-Scott

[-=Jeff=-]

Scott,

there are some scattered threads on this site regarding the project, but nothing with a final list of what worked and what did not. I heard the MS ECm played nice with the CCM, but then I hear that it did not.

Anyway, what I was hoping when this was initially released was:

-Full compatibility with the CCM
-Option to eliminate the Current DIS Module for maybe CnP?

But I have to admit, hearing that Prototype running was pretty damn awesome

[Scott Clark]

The ICM is nothing to be scared of, it's a good piece of electronics. But it's very easy to eliminate it and run whatever coilpacks you choose.

You'd simply set up our ECU to read the crankshaft position sensor instead of the RPM signal coming off the ICM. Our ECU is already reading the cam position for firing sequence information. So that part is almost a no-brainer.

(For what it's worth: the LT5 ICM is set up to "appear as an HEI module" to any ECU interfacing with it)


I'd need links or details on what's missing with the other parts. if anyone can point me in the right direction I'd be happy to follow up.

The sounds that the LT5 2.0 made on the dyno were very unique!! Graham's stories behind the development of both projects were spellbinding. This all happened during the era when Talent trumped Marketing, a time long gone now.

[-=Jeff=-]

The ICM is nothing to be scared of, it's a good piece of electronics. But it's very easy to eliminate it and run whatever coilpacks you choose.

You'd simply set up our ECU to read the crankshaft position sensor instead of the RPM signal coming off the ICM. Our ECU is already reading the cam position for firing sequence information. So that part is almost a no-brainer.

(For what it's worth: the LT5 ICM is set up to "appear as an HEI module" to any ECU interfacing with it)


I'd need links or details on what's missing with the other parts. if anyone can point me in the right direction I'd be happy to follow up.

The sounds that the LT5 2.0 made on the dyno were very unique!! Graham's stories behind the development of both projects were spellbinding. This all happened during the era when Talent trumped Marketing, a time long gone now.

Yes, I agree.. I did notice the ICM was designed to look like an HEI Module.. Which to me helps.. The concern is if the current ICM dies/ breaks whatever, with the limited replacements and high cost of them due to that, I am looking for a contingent plan. Do you know what the current cost is for the MS replacement for our cars?

SO it sounds like your ECU will have to issues with the extra pulse from our Crank sensor?

[Scott Clark]

Do you know what the current cost is for the MS replacement for our cars?

SO it sounds like your ECU will have to issues with the extra pulse from our Crank sensor?


We have a really robust crank position decoder. If the current setup can't be configured to make it work, it's usually a simple code change to fix. I'm pretty sure it'll work fine with the existing crank trigger though. Once you have that working, then you can run LS coils sequentially, or really whatever ignition you like. Even a belt driven distributor.


I was told the current ECU is around $2500. Graham and the guys are working on us for a simpler version that costs much less though. What we have right now is a full function standalone that comes with features like traction control, two stages of progressive nitrous controls, boost control, launch / 2 / 3 step functions, and high speed onboard datalogging (among a long list of others, seen here www.ms3pro.com). It's competitively priced compared to the other full function standalones, but admittedly overkill for this application.

[-=Jeff=-]

Yes I agree on overkill for this App.. I have a 1990 so out of those options.. I like the datalogger.. that is about it.. LOL

Thanks for all the info

[XfireZ51]

Graham,

Undoubtedly the LS series was under development as the Gen 2 LT-5 was. Did u know about the CnP ignition for the LS and were u planning on using
it? Is the idea of adapting COP or CnP to our LT-5s worth it performance wise in your opinion?

[Scott Clark]

While we wait for Graham's reply, my thoughts on the ignition based on experience are: No, CNP wouldnt be a performance improvement, only a possible reliability improvement, although CNP run sequentially would reduce energy drawn from the charging system as it fires half as frequently as the wasted spark system on the cars now.


if I were asked to make ignition system improvements, my first move would be to install a higher toothcount reluctor wheel on the crankshaft. Because more frequent updates to an ECU allows more precise placement of spark events.

[-=Jeff=-]

Yes.. That would be the better option.. I would consider that in my car

[XfireZ51]

Yes.. That would be the better option.. I would consider that in my car

That would require something other than the stock ICM. Unfortunately the ECM has nothing to do with firing the coils, just timing.
Reliability doesn't sound like THE critical factor requiring a new ignition system.
Something tells me other factors played into the need for a CnP type system. Look forward to Graham's perspective if he cares to chime in.

[grahambehan]

LT5 prototypes were made using the Northstar ignition set up and that would have been the path if the engine had gone further. I agree with Scott's statements re performance.

It was great working with Scott on the engine and I can't thank the guy's at DIY autotune enough for stepping up and helping us with this project. Now let's work on something that benefits the ZR-1 community!

Graham.

[XfireZ51]

Graham,

Thanks for your perspective and very much appreciate your contributions. :cheers:

[tf95ZR1]

Hey, we were the first to find out, now the rest of the
world knows:

http://www.corvetteonline.com/chevy-small-block/an-enginelabs-exclusive-the-gen-iii-lt5-that-never-was-alive-again/

[-=Jeff=-]

Hey, we were the first to find out, now the rest of the
world knows:

http://www.corvetteonline.com/chevy-small-block/an-enginelabs-exclusive-the-gen-iii-lt5-that-never-was-alive-again/

It has been all over the web since last week

[tf95ZR1]

Yes, on youtube May 15, 2015 the same day as Graham's presentation at BG.
Then,
An EngineLabs Exclusive: The Gen III LT5 That Never Was, Alive Again
posted on May 18, 2015 in Chevy - Small Block, Engine Library

[FU]

Thanks for posting that link Ted :cheers: