Cranks but No Start (days before MR/C4 Gathering)

[RussMcB]

I apologize for starting a new No Start thread, but I need to resolve this quickly, so I figured I'd post here today.

I got my car back from the body shop on Saturday (new paint came out great!), and I've been working on it a LOT since then. The car has started a few times since Saturday, but not in the last 2 days, and I'm getting close to panic mode.

What I'm hoping to gather from you all is a methodical process to identify the problem. I have a FSM but haven't found it useful because the steps require a scan tool, or technical knowledge I don't have.

Below are a few clues. Thank you all for any suggestions you may have. The car still needs a LOT of reassembly (front & rear fascias, interior, etc.), so this No Start troubleshooting needs to be quick or I won't be able to drive my Z to the Mountain Runs or the C4 Gathering.


The car cranks well but doesn't start.
It has a full gas tank and good fuel pressure (~50lb, Autometer gauge on a-pillar).
I installed the VATS bypass plug, and did the Starter Relay mod in February.
It has started twice since Saturday, but has not started in last 4-5 attempts (12 hours between tries).
I got it back from the body shop on Saturday. It had a no-start condition while it was with them. After I unloaded it from my trailer on Saturday it started right up with no issues. The car has had this behaviour since I got it in January.
Tonight Mark Litherman ("8cam") is coming over. With his help I'll see if the spark plugs are getting a spark. We can also swap parts (like computer). My car is a '91. His is a '90.
I'll check for codes tonight (but the last time this happened, the car threw no codes).
PS. To make matters worse, last night I closed the hood (for the first time since the paint job) and the passenger hood latch is stuck closed. I'm googling to get suggestions for that problem, too. :(

[Gunny]

Ouch !!! ... sorry to hear what you're dealing with.

re: the hood ... there are probably other methods but one of the handiest tools for this is a tool designed by Gordon Killebrew. Click HERE (https://www.gordonkillebrew.net/Products) and look at the 3rd box down on the right. I have one but I'm not particularly close; I hope that Steve has one since he's closer. Have you called Steve?

On the no-start ... don't give up. A lot of the folks on the forum are still at work and won't see your post until dinner time. Hopefully, someone will chime in soon with some good suggestions/ideas/help, etc.

[RussMcB]

Thanks, Gunny. I haven't reached out to Steve yet, but he has offered help. I'll see how things go tonight in the garage. He's on the other side of ATL, so not super close.

I've seen that tool during searching. I might be able to make one. I might also use my floor jack to put a slight twist in the chassis to see if that helps. A good suggection I saw was to drive around the block holding the hood latch pull (but I can't do that one).

I'll report back here with additional clues later. I'll be home in a couple of hours and will check for spark.

[We Gone]

I do have one of the hood tools from Gordon, I think it works on the left side, I'll have to look at it and see if it works on the right also. You may also try to push down slightly on the right side while someone pulls the latch. Sounds like the cable going from left to right may need adjustment or replaced.

Edit: Yes it will work on the right side just went down and checked. You do have to be very careful with it not to mar any paint around the latch area.

[Gunny]

Couple of things to try

If you're trying to open the hood with the car on totally flat surface, re-position it (or jack a corner) so that the passenger corner is either lower or higher than rest of the car, then gently try the hood release. You don't want to break the cable.

If you've got an assistant, try pushing down on the right side of the hood where it latches while someone gently works the hood release ... you might get lucky.

Other than that I don't have any good ideas at the moment.

Did the paint shop have your hood off for the paint? If so, they may not have gotten the exact alignment when replacing the hood.

[Gunny]

Steve,

glad you chimed in ... the tool "should" work either side but it's usually easier (like, piece of cake) on the left. I always had trouble with the right side but Gordon could do it every time ... don't know what was more frustrating, him doing it so easily or his grin when I couldn't.

[RussMcB]

Thanks for the suggestions.Did the paint shop have your hood off for the paint? If so, they may not have gotten the exact alignment when replacing the hood.No, they did not. However, the hood has always been a little stubborn on the passenger side. I've lubed it a bunch and tried to adjust it with no improvement. Before last night, it was just a minor nuisance - I had to walk over to the passenger side to pull it up. I should have heeded the warning signs.

[JFFerner]

You may want to try lifting the left side of the hood by the latch with only moderate effort, moving it up and down several inches (without latching it) a few times. This might allow the right side to spring loose.


And so it goes...Jim

[We Gone]

Once you get it open adjust the cable, you will see the adjusting ends at the latch, just have someone pull the hood open lever under the dash and see how much it moves the latch lever.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/908/zpolUV.jpg

You can also adjust the spring tension by loosening this nut and turning the striker pin with a large screwdriver.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/540/y8tlNg.jpg

[RussMcB]

Thanks, Steve, Jim, everyone. Much appreciated.

6PM Update:

The hood is open! I used a floor jack to twist the chassis and that worked. At least now I can see the engine I'm trying to get running. :-)

I am getting spark. It looks healthy. I only tested one plug wire.

I think I have NO fuel pressure. I noticed my recently installed Autometer FP gauge wasn't 'powering up' like it did before. The needle is stuck at 50 psi. I THOUGHT that meant I had fuel pressure, but now with a different mechanical gauge I see no pressure.

So, that's where I'll focus for now. I'll try to determine if 12v is going to the pump(s). Maybe I'll feed 12v to them to see if that allows the car to start.

I know there is a ton of information about our fuel pumps, but your suggestions are welcome (so I don't lose time searching).

[tf95ZR1]

Glad you got the hood open. I could never get Gordon's tool to work.
Just for that reason: (see post #6)

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15645&highlight=hood

And there is a way to jumper the fuel pump directly from a wire out the
backside of the ECM. You can also switch the 12V feed from primary to
secondary pump to see if just one is bad.

[tf95ZR1]

From Marc Haibeck's website:

http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/articles/The%20ZR-1%20As%20Tanker%201.pdf

"The fuel pump test connector is located near the windshield wiper motor.
It’s a single pin connector with a red wire. I made a cable with a spade connector and a clip
to connect 12 volt battery power to the test connector. The wire should be 14 gage
since the two pumps draw a total of 10 amperes.
To run the pumps the clip is attached to the positive terminal on the battery.
On ’90 cars with VINs less than about 800 the fuel pump test connector is
located in the area of the lower right side of the battery. On the early ‘90’s
the connector is hard to reach and may be impossible to find without removing the battery.
Starting the engine cold can run the pumps but the secondary fuel pump will shut down
when the engine temperature reaches 176 degrees."

[gbrtng]

Once you get it open adjust the cable, you will see the adjusting ends at the latch, just have someone pull the hood open lever under the dash and see how much it moves the latch lever.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/908/zpolUV.jpg

You can also adjust the spring tension by loosening this nut and turning the striker pin with a large screwdriver.

Turning the striker pin adjusts the latch point up or down - adjusting the pin up a half turn might relieve some binding, but adjusting the cable to make sure there is full travel of the latch is most important.

Could not figure out how to delete the top picture ...


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/540/y8tlNg.jpg

see comment between pics. Glenn

[RussMcB]

Great news. My No Start condition was caused by a bad wire/connection at the top of the gas tank. We were able to determine both my pumps are working, but the primary pump was not getting 12v. Specifically, it is one of the male pins in that top plate. It's still giving us grief, but at least now we know exactly where the problem is.

Woohoo!

A huge thanks to all of you. After I nail the FP wiring issue, I'll tackle the hood latches (and then start on the rest of the list).

[Dynomite]

Great news. My No Start condition was caused by a bad wire/connection at the top of the gas tank. We were able to determine both my pumps are working, but the primary pump was not getting 12v. Specifically, it is one of the male pins in that top plate. It's still giving us grief, but at least now we know exactly where the problem is.

Woohoo!

A huge thanks to all of you. After I nail the FP wiring issue, I'll tackle the hood latches (and then start on the rest of the list).

Thanks for describing the issue in case one of us runs into this ourselves :thumbsup:

Nice to solve one of these intermittent and hard to diagnose issues :handshak:

[PhillipsLT5]

Great news. My No Start condition was caused by a bad wire/connection at the top of the gas tank. We were able to determine both my pumps are working, but the primary pump was not getting 12v. Specifically, it is one of the male pins in that top plate. It's still giving us grief, but at least now we know exactly where the problem is.

Woohoo!

A huge thanks to all of you. After I nail the FP wiring issue, I'll tackle the hood latches (and then start on the rest of the list).

Another Brotherhood to the rescue

[RussMcB]

Thanks, Dynomite.

Quick summary (in case it helps someone someday):

After determining I had spark, we decided to investigate fuel pressure.
My new Autometer FP gauge read pressure, but I realized it wasn't behaving normally.
I connected a mechanical pressure gauge to the rail and found no fuel pressure.
We couldn't hear a fuel pump running so I removed the pump assembly from the top of the gas tank.
I used a battery charger to feed 12v to the pumps and we confirmed both were working.
Then we worked backwards to see where the break in conductivity was and we were able to pinpoint it.


I've tried to repair the terminals but it's still not quite right. Probably just too old and needs to be replaced. I'll work on it some more tomorrow in daylight, and it shouldn't be too tough to resolve.

[A26B]

I think you guys did some great work. The problem you described can sometimes be very elusive to pinpoint. What you ultimately found is a new-one so far as I can recall & one for the books. Again, great work.

[tf95ZR1]

Glad to hear you solved the problem, Russ.
I'm picturing myself soldering new terminals
next to an open fuel tank....

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Good job!! Hope to see you in BG!

[We Gone]

Russ, You need some last min. help just let me know...As long as I don't have to deal with Atl. traffic.....after 10am until after 8pm. works

[RussMcB]

Thanks, Steve. I'm making decent progress. I wont get everything done, but it should be 'good enough' by Sunday night (I hope!).

8CAM is coming over tomorrow to help with the front & rear bumpers. Those are the last two big tasks. Well, if you don't count bleeding the brakes, changing the trans & diff oil and getting the turn signals to work again. Oh, and packing.

If things go great, I might try to get the new stereo head unit in. I haven't done a car trip without satellite radio in a long time.

[We Gone]

Ok Russ... put many bumpers on over the last 38 years. along with anything else you can think of, had at least 16 Vettes so far 7 of them C4,s plus worked for buddy's dad at a Corvette shop for 25 years part time.

[8cam]

Good job Russ, I'll be over in a little while. Steve come on up if you don't mind the drive, we'd love an experienced wrench to help. I had my front bumper off once and putting it back on was a serious pain in the ***. I'm still not sure it's aligned correctly!

[8cam]

Glad to hear you solved the problem, Russ.
I'm picturing myself soldering new terminals
next to an open fuel tank....

The first time we powered the pumps and got a small spark, I think I peed a little...

[We Gone]

Good job Russ, I'll be over in a little while. Steve come on up if you don't mind the drive, we'd love an experienced wrench to help. I had my front bumper off once and putting it back on was a serious pain in the ***. I'm still not sure it's aligned correctly!

I'll agree 100% with the front, I should be up around 11am.

[Paul Workman]

I know that pain very well! I got the last bolts back in place only 10 minutes before heading tothe Mountain Run last year!

I think I have all the tools, a DVOM, and the electrical portion of tthe FSM with me. I'll be in Fontana Village for the Mtn run in case there are some lingering gremlins still a lerkin' about that need attenrion.;)

[RussMcB]

Yesterday Steve and Mark came over and I simply cannot believe how much help they were, how hard they worked and how much we got done. Yesterday was my birthday and their help was about the best present I could have hoped for.

Steve helped adjust the passenger side window. I had already worked quite a while on it a bit but it still wasn't right. He got it really close to perfect. Very glad because the that's the side my wife will be on and needs to good. :-)

Meanwhile Mark was kicking butt installing the door panel and most of the interior. I was pretty shocked to look up see it all back together.

Then we tackled the rear and front bumpers Those two did 99% of the work while I spent most of the time looking for the right fasteners.

Lastly, they got me started with the stereo install my showing me how those parts come apart. Before that, I had pretty much given up on having tunes for the trip.

I also learned a lot from Corvette stories and experiences. I couldn't be happier with the progress we made. I still have a substantial list, but expect the car to be together and driven later today.

http://zr1.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=305&pictureid=2849

[lfalzarano]

Under the battery is a terminal for all the critical wiring to run the engine. There will probably be a corroded or lose connection, since the car starts sometime and then doesn't. I finally had to replace that terminal, since the mechanic may have stripped the tightening bolt.

It's a shot but I had a similar problem.

[8cam]

Happy Birthday Russ! Any day wrenching on cars with friends is a good day. I enjoyed it, glad to help. Now drive that Z over here.

[We Gone]

Russ & Mark, I also enjoyed the day and the story's. Hope you got everything else done. & Happy Birthday Russ.