Castrol 10W-60 TWS

[Scrrem]

I used up the last of my stock of BMW 10W-60 TWS oil with a change on Sunday and when out searching for more and found that BMW/Castrol may have renamed / rebadged the oil. One site I checked said that the TWS oil and been discontinued and replaced by the product below. Hopefully it's still the same product inside the bottle. Can anyone shed some light on this?

http://www.amazon.com/Castrol-10W-60-Synthetic-Motor-Oil/dp/B00AED05PS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1430174358&sr=8-1&keywords=Genuine+BMW+07510009420

Rich

[Arctic91]

I found mine here when looking for some allroad parts: http://www.ecstuning.com/

I think that it's the right stuff.

Scott

[PhillipsLT5]

Go to BMW dealer, be ready for sticker shock, 1 liter bottles, but cheaper than a Bill B rebuild

[mike100]

I bet they re-branded it so they could charge $24 a bottle. I bought some in 2011 for $15 per at the BMW dealer. I didn't care for the shift quality and now I'm in the Amsoil Synchromesh camp.

I'm surprised to see such a blatant price increase for motor oil.

[Bearly Flying]

Why would you run a 60 weight oil in the LT5

[efnfast]

Why would you run a 60 weight oil in the LT5
Not the engine, the tranny.

[Paul Workman]

Not having any issues other than not being able to find TWS anymore, AND having a little "curnch" when shifting into 5th ONLY WHEN it is cold, on Marc's recommendation I switched to Red Line Heavy "shock Proof" full synthetic 75W-90.

One outing does not an evaluation make, so I'll save that for later. But, once up to operating temps, it shifts like butter - and no crunch going into 5th; very "normal" feel to it. Check w/ me in November!!

[ZZZZZR1]

Rich,

Funny you asked about this... I need to change my fluid and a few friends want to change their trans fluid. I asked Marc his opinion and go this.

"We no longer use the BMW lubricant because new products are available
that are better.

For a street driven car with the OE dual mass flywheel we use Amsoil
MTF. It's a 5W-30 synthetic lubricant. It's better than the GM lube
that has been discontinued because the GM lube used mineral oil. You
can get it from me or any Amsoil dealer.

For a car with a dual mass flywheel we use Red Line Shock Proof
Heavy. It quiets the transmission better than the BMW 10W-60. It is
also good for racing because it is synthetic. You can get it from
Summit Racing. RED-58204"

Ordered Red Line!

:cheers:

David

[98indypacer]

Rich,

Funny you asked about this... I need to change my fluid and a few friends want to change their trans fluid. I asked Marc his opinion and go this.

"We no longer use the BMW lubricant because new products are available
that are better.

For a street driven car with the OE dual mass flywheel we use Amsoil
MTF. It's a 5W-30 synthetic lubricant. It's better than the GM lube
that has been discontinued because the GM lube used mineral oil. You
can get it from me or any Amsoil dealer.

For a car with a dual mass flywheel we use Red Line Shock Proof
Heavy. It quiets the transmission better than the BMW 10W-60. It is
also good for racing because it is synthetic. You can get it from
Summit Racing. RED-58204"

Ordered Red Line!

:cheers:

David
I think Marc meant: For a car "without" a dual mass flywheel we use Red Line Shock Proof Heavy. It quiets the transmission better than the BMW 10W-60.

[XfireZ51]

What does ZF-Doc recommend?

[mike100]

What does ZF-Doc recommend?

The Castrol 10w-60...but he lives in Phoenix so the prevailing oil weight philosophy tends to be heavier grades since the 7 months of summer is so hot there.

[tonywy]

I used Amsoil Synchromesh, could not believe that an oil change from the GM stuff could make such a difference. Shifts better cold, no more gear rattle and as well when hot.

[Dynomite]

What does ZF-Doc recommend?

From ZFDoc Questions and Answeres (http://www.zfdoc.com/faq.htm)

(Q.) I just bought, at the local BMW dealership, 3 liters of the Castrol TWS 10W60 oil. I was surprised to see that it is motor oil. Not being a lubrication engineer myself, who did the investigation and determination that this product is compatible with and good for our ZF transmissions? Jim � Grand Sport Registry

(A.) Jim, the C4 Corvette ZF S6-40 6-speed transmission uses engine oil for lubrication. I was told by Jeff Henning, Warranty Administrator of ZF Industries North America, that Engineering of ZF Industries in Germany determined that the BMW imported Castrol (RS superseded by TWS) 10W-60 oil was the recommended alternative to the (GM P/N 1052931) factory-fill oil for use in the ZF S6-40 transmission. In effort to verify ZF Industries alternative lubricant recommendation, we ran our own test series on the BMW imported Castrol TWS 10W-60 oil. Independent testing of the transmission oil samples was sub-contracted out to CTC Analytical Services. The test series went as follows:
<1> Spectrographic analysis indicated that it is has full synthetic composition.
<2> After 2 hours of operation, approximately 100 miles, oil sample analysis tests indicated that the viscosity rating was reduced from 60 down to a 43 level. No need to worry, this is a normal occurrence for this heavier type of oil. I attribute this to microscopic-level lubricant-strand trimming through operational loading where all of the oil contents has been passed through gear pressure-loading regions at least a few times.
<3> At 200 miles, the viscosity level stabilized at a 42 level viscosity since the 100 mile oil analysis test results.
<4> At 5000 miles, the oil analysis test results indicated a 40 level viscosity.
The test-transmission was completely disassembled and checked for wear. There were no signs of carbon film like experienced with the factory-fill oil. The phosphor-bronze lined synchronizers had no glazing and experienced an average mass loss of approximately 4% based on reserve-wear-range mass equivalency between 0.062"(new) and 0.048"(spent)
gap wear/mass measurements.
<5> At 10,000 miles, the oil analysis test results indicated a 39 level viscosity.
<6> At 12,500 miles, the oil analysis test results indicated a 37 level viscosity.
<7> At 15,000 miles, the oil analysis test results indicated a 34 level viscosity.
The test-transmission was again completely disassembled and checked for wear. There were no signs of carbon film like experienced with the factory-fill 30 oil. The phosphor-bronze lined synchronizers had no glazing and experienced an average mass loss of approximately 17% based on reserve-wear-range mass equivalency between 0.062"(new) and 0.048"(spent) gap wear/mass measurements.
<8> At 15,000 miles the oil had enough phosphor-bronze particles suspended
in it that deposits began building up inside of the synchronizer sliding
sleeves from the normal centrifuge-like rotational occurrence.
In Conclusion, until someone invents a copper magnet, we recommend that the ZF S6-40 6-speed transmission oil be changed at 10,000 - 12,000 mile intervals so as to minimize the amount of deposits of the suspended spent synchronizer material from collecting in critical component contact surface areas.

In Conclusion, until someone invents a copper magnet, we recommend that the ZF S6-40 6-speed transmission oil be changed at 10,000 - 12,000 mile intervals so as to minimize the amount of deposits of the suspended spent synchronizer material from collecting in critical component contact surface areas.

See LT5/ZR-1 Fluids (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp.html#post1580070550)

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite6/353a8770-2463-4a3d-bd53-860920b2b618.jpg

[-=Jeff=-]

is the new bottled BMW stuff the same just a different bottle?

[XfireZ51]

is the new bottled BMW stuff the same just a different bottle?

Jeff,

Yes. I still have 1/2 qt. not cheap BUT. I'm probably at the point where I should drain mine and replace.

[-=Jeff=-]

Actually some quick research says the new stuff is different..

I think i will go with Amsoil on the next change

[Scrrem]

Actually some quick research says the new stuff is different..

I think i will go with Amsoil on the next change

Yeah, I went out on EBAY and found the old stuff but since B.B will be a speaker at BG this year, may be a good time to get his 2 cents...
Rich

[XfireZ51]

Actually some quick research says the new stuff is different..

I think i will go with Amsoil on the next change

Care to post a link to that research?

[-=Jeff=-]

I found this Snippet of Info in a thread:

"TWS is tested and approved by BMW to meet the specific requirements for the M series engines - it has a different formulation ( which includes additional synthetic esters ) to the Edge sport 10W-60 to meet the specific BMW requirements and the only spec the TWS meets is BMW.
The EDGE 10W-60 is the retail alternative for the TWS Motorsport, which is a workshop only product supplied to BMW dealers.
So for the M series asking for the 10W-60 grade, I would recommend either the TWS Motorsport from BMW outlets or the EDGE 10W-60 ( which also only carries the BMW approval ) from retail outlets

Hope that helps

Kind regards

Andy Griffin
Castrol Technical Support"

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=906342&page=2

I was not going off the other comments, just this..

So what is different? can it or will it cause issues in the ZF?

Amsoil MTF 5W-30 is the same/ similar to OEM and Not stupid expense

Also search BMW Forums.. bunch of guys chatting about TWS vs the Edge stuff

[Dynomite]

A Comparison of Castrol TWS 10W-60 Motorsport and Castrol TWS 10W-60 Edge (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=926080)

What does ZF-Doc recommend?

Bill is now using a Custom blend synchromesh lubricant exclusively sold through Rockland Standard Gear (150SM) but recommends either 150SM, or Castrol TWS 10W-60 or the NEWLY LABELED Castrol Edge 10W-60 which is nearly identical (but now there are two Edges).

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite11/150SM.pnghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite11/Castrol%20Edge%202.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite11/Castrol%20Edge.jpg

[XfireZ51]

I have had the EDGE Castrol 10W-60 in my ZF for the last 2 years. I bought it directly from Patrick BMW here in Schaumburg. My ZF has a Hurst short shift on it, and I haven't given the trans a second thought. This is a trans running on a Fidanza FW. Neutral trans noise is minimal. Your experience may vary, but I don't have a reason to switch.

[Jitse]

I am using Castrol Edge 10W60 too, no problem at all here in Holland to get it. price about 20€ a liter. I am happy with this oil , tried other brands but prefer this Castrol Edge, less noise and smooth shifting.

[RussMcB]

This link is to a post from a guy who had Blackstone tests done on each.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=926080

My quick read seemed to indicate the newer version is better.

[mike100]

This link is to a post from a guy who had Blackstone tests done on each.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=926080

My quick read seemed to indicate the newer version is better.

Maybe for an engine application, but is the reformulated version still the best choice for synchro friction?

[Dynomite]

I have had the EDGE Castrol 10W-60 in my ZF for the last 2 years. I bought it directly from Patrick BMW here in Schaumburg.

Which Castrol Edge are you using?
The label was Castrol TWS Motorsport until Castrol changed the names ;)
Now my question is........Are the Labels Castrol Edge Professional and Castrol Edge TWS the same (Both are 10W-60)?

Castrol TWS Motorsport and Castrol Edge Professional are for all practical purposes the same (not quite identical......but the same).

See A Comparison of Castrol TWS 10W-60 Motorsport and Castrol TWS 10W-60 Edge (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=926080) for comparison of Castrol Motorsport and Castrol Edge Professional 10W-60.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite11/Castrol%20Edge%202.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite11/Castrol%20Edge.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/90%20ZR1/96575466-a493-4334-838c-ff5b695b084c.jpg

And....then there is 150SM Tranzilla Lube (Rockland Standard Gear) :D

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite11/150SM.png

[XfireZ51]

Motorsports

[Roadster]

I purchased Castrol Edge Professional months ago online, and two replacement plugs (just in case) from my local VW dealer. Still haven't changed anything out yet. I also have no reason to believe that there is nothing but the stock clutch setup in my Z. That being said, it shifts fine, can be a little notchy when cold, but otherwise good when warm.
Probably will change soon, and may as well use the Castrol this time around and maybe switch in another 10,000 miles or so.
Interesting thread, always good info.....:-D

[Hib Halverson]

Not having any issues other than not being able to find TWS anymore, AND having a little "curnch" when shifting into 5th ONLY WHEN it is cold, on Marc's recommendation I switched to Red Line Heavy "shock Proof" full synthetic 75W-90.

One outing does not an evaluation make, so I'll save that for later. But, once up to operating temps, it shifts like butter - and no crunch going into 5th; very "normal" feel to it. Check w/ me in November!!

Paul has his signals a bit crossed.

Red Line does not make a product called "Heavy Shockproof full synthetic 75W90."

It makes a product called "Heavy Shockproof" but that's not suggested to be used as a transmission lubricant. Red Line also makes "MT90" a 75W90 GL4 gear lubricant intended for old-fashioned manuals such as Muncies and Warner T10s and it makes a 75W90 GL5 for rear axles.

Regardless of what Marc may say, neither of the above products is suitable for use in a ZF S6-40.

The Red Line products which are suitable for a ZF are:

MTL, which is a GL4, 75W80 and is the most commonly recommended Red Line synthetic product for ZF S6-40s.

Light Shockproof, which is suggested for use in ZFs subjected to severe duty.

The best all round product for street driving is MTL which has good shift feel even at low temperatures. The best choice for a ZF in a car which is tracked or is driven hard on the street in warm weather is Light Shockproof which has outstanding shift feel except when the trans lube is very cold.

Before Castrol changed the marketing of the 10W60, it was popular, I guess, because it was approved by BMW. I've been skeptical because of a conversation I had a number of years ago with Bill Boudreau who told me that, according to his testing, the oil didn't last very long and needed to be changed every 10,000 miles.

I stuck with Red Line Light Shockproof because 1) the shift feel and 2) that I can go 36,000 miles between changes.

[mike100]

^^^ I do believe most synchronizers need a GL-4 lube. Also the gear oil weight rating is not the same as the motor oil weight rating. I also used to run Redline MTL in a T5 5-speed manual in my old Z-28 and that had no ill effects over the 140k miles that I kept track of that vehicle. That would probably be my second choice to Amsoil or GM synchromesh. I can get GM synchromesh at the store down the street for $10 a bottle so there's that...

A 40 weight motor oil grade is like an 85-90 weight gear oil rating- I wouldn't want to go thicker in the ZF as the factory fill was a 30 weight anyhow.
viscosity chart:
-----------------
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c265/mschrameck/visc_zpsatu2d0sx.jpg~original (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/mschrameck/media/visc_zpsatu2d0sx.jpg.html)

[tf95ZR1]

Thanks, Mike! I didn't know that about engine vrs. gear oil.

And don't I remember Bill B. saying something about Red Line...?

This is great timing for me, also, as it's time to change the trans
fluid. I've always used Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 from my
local BMW dealer.

I'm gonna be in for a bit more work: with my lowered car,
my drain plug is ground flat. I'll need to cut a pattern in the plug
and avoid the fluid that's going to drain (top/inside of plug is designed
hollowed out) and replace with a new plug. Any other style plug to use?
The stock one sure has thin walls. I hope I used anti-seize on it.

[Hib Halverson]

(snip)

I'm gonna be in for a bit more work: with my lowered car,
my drain plug is ground flat.(snip)

Your car is lowered so much the drain plug in your ZF is ground flat?!
Wow.

With virtually no suspension travel the car must be a handful sometimes, but darn, I'll bet it looks really cool.:dancing

[tf95ZR1]

I don't want to hijack this thread, and maybe I exaggerated a bit
about being ground flat, but a hex will definitely not work as is.
It used to hit on speed bumps (not anymore!) and still handles just
fine, even at HIGH speeds. :)

[Dynomite]

Your car is lowered so much the drain plug in your ZF is ground flat?!
Wow. With virtually no suspension travel the car must be a handful sometimes, but darn, I'll bet it looks really cool.:dancing

One other possibility is the transmission is tilted down a bit more than normal caused by loosening of the C-Beam/Transmission Bolts. Maybe time for ZFdoc C-Beam Plates installation :thumbsup:

C-Beam Normal alignment is 1.77 in from top of C-Beam to the under body at the location of the front Universal Joint Bearing.
Side to side alignment is 1.1 in from C-Beam Side wall to passenger side under body side wall at the same location.
I raise the transmission just a bit more than the 1.77 in criteria (say 1.5 in clearance) to account for weight (engine and transmission) once the transmission is released from the jack support.

Before Castrol changed the marketing of the 10W60, it was popular, I guess, because it was approved by BMW. I've been skeptical because of a conversation I had a number of years ago with Bill Boudreau who told me that, according to his testing, the oil didn't last very long and needed to be changed every 10,000 miles.



I thought Bill Boudreau was referring to the spent synchronizer material (which would accumulate in any oil) and not to some deterioration of the Castrol 10W-60 oil :dontknow:

"In Conclusion, until someone invents a copper magnet, we recommend that the ZF S6-40 6-speed transmission oil be changed at 10,000 - 12,000 mile intervals so as to minimize the amount of deposits of the suspended spent synchronizer material from collecting in critical component contact surface areas".

[Dynomite]

Just had to revive this 2015 Discussion for those that missed it first time around ;)

Red Line does not make a product called "Heavy Shockproof full synthetic 75W90."

It makes a product called "Heavy Shockproof" but that's not suggested to be used as a transmission lubricant. Red Line also makes "MT90" a 75W90 GL4 gear lubricant intended for old-fashioned manuals such as Muncies and Warner T10s and it makes a 75W90 GL5 for rear axles.

Regardless of what Marc may say, neither of the above products is suitable for use in a ZF S6-40.

The Red Line products which are suitable for a ZF are:

MTL, which is a GL4, 75W80 and is the most commonly recommended Red Line synthetic product for ZF S6-40s.

Light Shockproof, which is suggested for use in ZFs subjected to severe duty.

I stuck with Red Line Light Shockproof because 1) the shift feel and 2) that I can go 36,000 miles between changes.

Hib.........Very Interesting in regard to Red Line MT90.......The most recommended Oil for the Toyota Tacoma V6 manual Transmission is Red Line "MT90" a 75W90 GL4 (MT90 from Summit Racing ). The Toyota Discussions suggest GL5 are too slippery for the Syncros of the Toyota Manual Transmissions. And yes.....many of the guys use Red Line 75W90 GL5 in their Differentials. I use Mobile 1 75W90 in all my Differentials.

I do use Castrol 10W-60 in ALL Corvettes ZF S6-40 Transmissions.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/800x600/80-353a8770_2463_4a3d_bd53_860920b2b618_1__215baaf45f a8310b57b69078bd80040f5003d62d.jpg

[XfireZ51]

BMW dropped the Castrol TWS several years ago in favor of their own branded oil. Since then I have been using the Amsoil Manual Synchro Oil and find it to shift a bit smoother with no other issues. Marc H uses that oil for the ZF.

[Dynomite]

BMW dropped the Castrol TWS several years ago in favor of their own branded oil. Since then I have been using the Amsoil Manual Synchro Oil and find it to shift a bit smoother with no other issues. Marc H uses that oil for the ZF.

Do you have a picture of a quart of Amsoil Manual Synchro Oil ?
Is that Amsoil Manual Sunchro oil 75W-90 weight?

Ebay has all kinds of Castrol 10W-60 for sale (Edge and TWS) which is what I have in all ZF S6-40 Transmissions including a Black Label recently rebuilt by Bill Boudreau and a New Blue Label ZF-S6-40 Transmission :p

Marc Haibeck now as of 2016 suggests Castrol TWS and Castrol Edge (both 10W-60) as alternate ZF S6-40 Lubricants and is now using Amsoil MTF synthetic 5W-30 manual transmission specialty lubricant. Red Line MTL is also good. For an application that uses a single mass flywheel, Marc has found that Red Line Shock Proof Heavy is the best for suppressing gear rattle.

Bill Boudreau now suggests The ZF S6-40 6-speed transmission is lubricated by engine type oil. Manufacturer recommendations specify the use of GM P/N 1052931 (5w-30) or BMW P/N 07510009420 (10w-60) oil. Bill also suggests more Frequent transmission oil changes will ensure lower Pb particle levels (the porous Phosphorus-bronze (Pb) material of each synchronizer) suspended in the oil.

[jss06c6]

Just got my ZF back from Bill. I'm running BMW M-turbo 10w-60. 100 miles of Twisties this morning with a lot of up & down shifts. Never skipped a beat. Smooth shifts without exception.

Sent from my XT1585 using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[9T1 Red ZR1]

Hi,
I ordered the Castrol TWS but they shipped Castrol Edge Supercar 10W-60. Is this the same or should I return it?

Thanks,
Bill

[jss06c6]

Not sure.. try to get the oil specs and constituents, zinc, etc.. compare to the BMW M-turbo 10W - 60.

Sent from my XT1585 using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[Matt B]

I just went though this threat as in our German forum we currently have a case of transmission failure and at the same time I'm tidying up my new Z.

My car, as mentioned before, is a 18.5kmls example and I strongly assume (but don't know for sure) that transmission fluid is still factory filled. There are two particular concerns in my case:
- avoid that the new oil removes old debris too aggressively leading to bulky particles that may clog oil passages
- make sure the thing will survive German Autobahn speed.

Castrol Edge 10W60 is fairly easy to get here, but as Marc Haibeck recommends Amsoil 5W30 I wonder which will work better or safer. Marc's recommendation seems much thinner and therefore sounds like improved lubrication at all temperatures.
I don't think either is wrong but is there any better or worse?

[Great White]

I just went though this threat as in our German forum we currently have a case of transmission failure and at the same time I'm tidying up my new Z.

My car, as mentioned before, is a 18.5kmls example and I strongly assume (but don't know for sure) that transmission fluid is still factory filled. There are two particular concerns in my case:
- avoid that the new oil removes old debris too aggressively leading to bulky particles that may clog oil passages
- make sure the thing will survive German Autobahn speed.

Castrol Edge 10W60 is fairly easy to get here, but as Marc Haibeck recommends Amsoil 5W30 I wonder which will work better or safer. Marc's recommendation seems much thinner and therefore sounds like improved lubrication at all temperatures.
I don't think either is wrong but is there any better or worse?

Not sure which is better or worse, but the thicker oils tend to quiet things in the gearbox a bit better at higher temperatures. My car has an aluminum aftermarket flywheel so things tend to get a bit noisy after they warm up on my particular blue tag. When I first bought the car, I filled it with Lucas Synthetic Stabilizer because I found nothing else available at the time. I have since switched to the Amsoil Synchromesh 5w30 and haven't had any issues. Both fluids have worked well but I was unsure of how suitable the Lucas would be in this particular application. (It survived a few rounds on the NCM MSP course with no failures with the Lucas stuff in there though.)

[Matt B]

Thanks, sounds good. And just to be sure: it's Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid we're speaking about? I couldn't find some other with no "synchromesh" in its name.

[Great White]

Thanks, sounds good. And just to be sure: it's Manual Synchromesh Transmission Fluid we're speaking about? I couldn't find some other with no "synchromesh" in its name.Yes that is correct. I spoke with my local Amsoil distributor before I used it and he confirmed that this fluid meets the specifications set fourth by ZF for our S6-40 transmissions. Below is a link to the product.

https://www.amsoil.com/p/manual-synchromesh-transmission-fluid-5w-30-mtf/

Sent from my BBF100-2 using ZR-1 Net Registry mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

[-=Jeff=-]

I prefer the Amsoil to the TWS, transmission is very smooth with Amsoil, not so much with the TWS