427 LT5 Build 2 underway

[tpepmeie]

Here we go, guys. Thought I would make a new thread to document build 2. The target is 800 bhp, @ 7400 rpm. Some upgrades from the previous version (700 bhp/6900):


New larger inlet valves (41.5mm v. 39.5mm)
Higher compression ratio
Billet aluminum mono blade throttle body
New cams...maybe


Here are two links to other discussions about Build II.
http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23894
http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=23537

I was never really happy with the ring seal on the first build, both from a blow-by and oil control perspective. So, we're now using new pistons, a different bore finish, and new rings. These pistons (430g) are a bit heavier than the featherweight CP forgings I used in build 1, so the crankshaft will need rebalanced. The intention is to get better stability of the piston in the bore.

Ross Custom billet pistons. 14:1 / Flat Top / .140" deep valve pockets made from a mold of my combustion chamber. These valve pockets will accommodate more than .550" valve lift if I decide to go there...

.043/.043/3mm Total Seal rings

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_1258.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_1258.jpg.html)

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_1259.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_1259.jpg.html)

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_1260.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_1260.jpg.html)

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_1261.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_1261.jpg.html)

[XfireZ51]

Groundbreaking stuff Todd. You're one of the people we should celebrate for advancing the ball! :handshak:

[FU]

Gas ported pistons :thumbsup: nice option.

[Blue Flame Restorations]

What bore finish are you planning to use?

[A26B]

I've seen the groove between the compression rings on Mahle LT5 pistons before. Can you elaborate on yours?

[tpepmeie]

What bore finish are you planning to use?

Whatever Total Seal recommends :-D. Seriously, though, I think the finish hone is 280-320, with a specific cross hatch angle. Keith Jones at Total Seal is the guy.

[tpepmeie]

I've seen the groove between the compression rings on Mahle LT5 pistons before. Can you elaborate on yours?

Jerry,
most all of the high end pistons have this. I believe the theory is to provide more volume for the gas pressure that escapes past the top ring. The groove helps relieve that instead of compromising the ring seal in the land. At least that's the way I understand it.

[tpepmeie]

I added a couple of links to the original post, just to keep it all together.

Some other upgrades for Build II:


Custom main bearing studs
ARP head studs
Cometic MLS head gasket
Custom heavy duty secondary cam chains (:eusa_shhh)
improved crankcase ventilation
upsized fuel delivery system, incl. new rails & adj regulator
alpha-n fuel calibration, fully mapped on engine dyno
RAM dual disc clutch

That's all I can think of right now. This should be fun. :cheers:

[USAFPILOT]

Is this a second engine or a rebuild of the 1st 427?

[bradley]

could you share what your doing to improve the crankcase vent system ??????

[Scrrem]

I was never really happy with the ring seal on the first build, both from a blow-by and oil control perspective. So, we're now using new pistons, a different bore finish, and new rings. These pistons (430g) are a bit heavier than the featherweight CP forgings I used in build 1, so the crankshaft will need rebalanced. The intention is to get better stability of the piston in the bore.

So what do you think the issue was with the ring seal on the first build? I just recently did a 380 build and only have about 800 miles on the motor but am getting a significant amount of blow-by as well. I was thinking my rings just haven't seated in yet but maybe it's something else. Starting to wonder now. Would be intersted to hear your thoughts.

[tpepmeie]

So what do you think the issue was with the ring seal on the first build? I just recently did a 380 build and only have about 800 miles on the motor but am getting a significant amount of blow-by as well. I was thinking my rings just haven't seated in yet but maybe it's something else. Starting to wonder now. Would be intersted to hear your thoughts.

Well, I'm no expert, but I think it's a handful of things. The bore finish is obviously important. I don't know what hone finish was put on my first build, I will specify exactly what it is on the second one. A cylinder deck plate is a must, especially with open deck (mine is not open deck, and had a plate hone). The quality of the ring pack can't be overlooked either--I'm upgrading that too.

I also think piston stability in the bore hurts us as well. Especially with longer stroke/shorter rods. In the end, I have chosen a slightly heavier piston this time, with longer skirts. Still the box-bridge inboard pin boss design. My belief is that the piston starts rocking around in the bore, the ring seal gets disturbed, and the rings start to flutter at high rpm.

It was a well-built engine, and still had enough blow-by to push the dipstick up an inch under WOT. I never measured blow-by directly with a meter, but I wish I would have. It ran well and made a lot of power, so it couldn't have been too much of a problem.

Todd

PS- your rings should be seated by now. Did you break it in initially with a load? either on a dyno or hard street runs?

[tpepmeie]

could you share what your doing to improve the crankcase vent system ??????

No. Mainly because I haven't got it all figured out yet. Will probably involve venting the crankcase directly to atmosphere, and possibly eliminating the PCV system. Or else figure out how to significantly increase the flow capacity of the PCV system.

[bradley]

you might want to call corey on this . he did his masters paper on trying to improve the lt5 pvc system

[Scrrem]

PS- your rings should be seated by now. Did you break it in initially with a load? either on a dyno or hard street runs?

Todd,
Yes, I did get some hard runs during breakin, nothing excessive though. I am getting a good deal of oil seeping out around the exhaust flange where my headers bolt up, no its no coming from the header stud. It's getting better the more I drive it, so by the time I return from BG, hopefully it will be to a minimum. The final hone on my liners was done with a really good honing machine and a deck plate was used. Hopefully this will resolve itself. Good luck with the build, can't wait to see the final product!!:cheers: .
Rich

[XfireZ51]

No. Mainly because I haven't got it all figured out yet. Will probably involve venting the crankcase directly to atmosphere, and possibly eliminating the PCV system. Or else figure out how to significantly increase the flow capacity of the PCV system.

Todd,

Suggest you speak to Pete about venting to atmosphere. I believe they tried that with BobGs 427.

[ALZR1]

Hey Todd what is the length of the con-rods?

Al.

[tpepmeie]

Hey Todd what is the length of the con-rods?

Al.

6" Carrillo's

[tpepmeie]

Heads are done... 41.5mm valves. "A lot" of airflow....

[Jagdpanzer]

Heads are done... 41.5mm valves. "A lot" of airflow....

How much did you gain?

[5ABI VT]

Very cool :)

Silly idea but thought I'd mention it anyways :) I was thinking to run a pcv hose from the rear all the way back to the tire tray and put a big reservoir of some sort like a fuel cell where the spare tire goes to increase the volume in the system. All I did for now is run a vacuum line all the way to the front of the car ahead of the wheel where I put a catch can hoping to increase volume slightly and catch some oil.

[tpepmeie]

How much did you gain?

35-40 cfm throughout the lift curve. I'll post more detail when the heads arrive next week. And the flow efficiency, which was great beforehand, was maintained. Doesn't appear to be any adverse shrouding with the bigger valves. Still >90 cfm/sq in at .500".

[tpepmeie]

Look what showed up today. Without a doubt, I would say it is impossible to fit any larger intake valves in the LT5. New Beryllium Copper valve seats. 41.5mm intake valves, 35.5mm exhaust valves.

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_1300.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_1300.jpg.html)

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_1301.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_1301.jpg.html)

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/64bad69b-3ced-4235-a762-853ad58c7c27.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/64bad69b-3ced-4235-a762-853ad58c7c27.jpg.html)

376 cfm @ .500"
390 @ .600

[PhillipsLT5]

WOW!

[efnfast]

WOW!
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
What is the stock size?

[LGAFF]

My Todd, what big valves you have....

[XfireZ51]

Todd,

Absolutely stunning! The copper beryllium seats are gorgeous.

[Hib Halverson]

Those seats are pretty, for sure but wow, the larger valves really "slimmed down" the valve bridges. At the 800-hp level do you have any concerns about keeping those parts of the head cool?

Of course, I guess duty cycle is an issue, too. If all this engine will be is a drag racer then maybe there's no problem

But if you're going to do long periods of WOT, i.e.: standing mile events, things are going to get pretty darn hot....

[RyanChappel]

What an impressive build. I live over in Boone County, near Zionsville. Is the engine being assembled in Fishers? If so, I'd love to be around when that jewel is fired for the first time....

It is always exciting to hear the sound a new engine makes when it first comes to life... I used to work around IndyCar for a few years, through the Chevy Indy v8's, the Buicks, the Aurora (a monster of an engine), the Infinity v8, and of course Toyota and Honda....etc.,

It gets in the blood, for sure.

[tpepmeie]

Guys,
Just a quick post to let you know that from January, I've started a business focused on the LT5. I intend to have a blog dedicated to build 2. If things go as planned, I'll have more to display at BG this year.

Hope you can click over to the website, and contact me if you have any questions.

PS. I did ask the mods if this was ok, and never got a response. Apologies in advance if this violates any forum rules.

Thanks.

[XfireZ51]

Guys,
Just a quick post to let you know that from January, I've started a business focused on the LT5. I intend to have a blog dedicated to build 2. If things go as planned, I'll have more to display at BG this year.

Hope you can click over to the website, and contact me if you have any questions.

PS. I did ask the mods if this was ok, and never got a response. Apologies in advance if this violates any forum rules.

Thanks.

Todd,

Perhaps you would become a sponsor.

[tpepmeie]

working on it.

[Jagdpanzer]

Todd,
Good luck with the new venture

[FU]

Yes Sir , Best of LUCK in your new venture :cheers:

[GOLDCYLON]

Serious Motor porn

[tpepmeie]

This engine build is going to be chronicled on my blog site. Hope you guys will follow along. I expect the block back from the machine shop very soon.

http://pepmeierenginedevelopment.blogspot.com/2016/07/lt5-427-build-2-progress.html

[Tripler]

Awesome build . Looking forward to the completion. That will be amazing power for a normally aspirated engine like the wickedly amazing LT5...
;)

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[5ABI VT]

way cool I definitely will follow. I want to be building a stroker very soon !!

[tpepmeie]

In case you guys want to follow along. The rotating assembly is together. My blog is updated with the latest steps. This will be the last update for awhile, as I need to get the cylinder heads ready and the cams timed.

http://pepmeierenginedevelopment.blogspot.com/

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_0519.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_0519.jpg.html)

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_0522.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_0522.jpg.html)

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_0535.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_0535.jpg.html)

[XfireZ51]

Todd,

I don't recall, but was your earlier 427 build also a closed deck?

[tpepmeie]

yes, it was Dom.

[ALZR1]

In case you guys want to follow along. The rotating assembly is together. My blog is updated with the latest steps. This will be the last update for awhile, as I need to get the cylinder heads ready and the cams timed.

http://pepmeierenginedevelopment.blogspot.com/

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_0519.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_0519.jpg.html)

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_0522.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_0522.jpg.html)

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_0535.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_0535.jpg.html)





I like the Gas ports on the Pistons Todd

[WARP TEN]

OK Al, I'll bite: What are gas ports on the pistons? Those tiny little holes around the perimeters? And what exactly is their purpose? Inquiring minds want to know....-Bob

[-=Jeff=-]

OK Al, I'll bite: What are gas ports on the pistons? Those tiny little holes around the perimeters? And what exactly is their purpose? Inquiring minds want to know....-Bob

Yes Bob.. I stumbled across this:
a gas port is a hole drilled from the piston deck (a vertical gas port) or from the top ring land (a horizontal gas port) to the rear of the top ring groove. The purpose of a gas port is to apply combustion pressure directly to the top ring, forcing the ring face firmly against the cylinder wall. The number, size, and location of gas ports vary with bore diameter, engine type, dome design, and the engine builder’s personal preferences.

Here is a link:
http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-22-the-importance-of-gas-ports/

[WARP TEN]

Yes Bob.. I stumbled across this:


Here is a link:
http://rehermorrison.com/tech-talk-22-the-importance-of-gas-ports/

Ahhh....thanks Jeff. I am enlightened! And the article itself was quite interesting. Right at the end it said: "When you cross the threshold of 1,000 horsepower, gas ports become essential for maximum performance." Certainly glad that Todd won't be held back any! --Bob

[Jagdpanzer]

Looking good Todd.
The new rod bolts appear to have larger heads.
Did the block require further clearancing from before?

[tpepmeie]

Looking good Todd.
The new rod bolts appear to have larger heads.
Did the block require further clearancing from before?

No. A bit of an optical illusion. The shoulder is a little fatter, but the overall height is the same as the prior bolts. No clearancing required.

[Pete]

Todd did you buy sleeves from AES?

Pete

[tpepmeie]

Todd did you buy sleeves from AES?

Pete

No.

[Jagdpanzer]

No. A bit of an optical illusion. The shoulder is a little fatter, but the overall height is the same as the prior bolts. No clearancing required.

2" rods journals then?

[tpepmeie]

2" rods journals then?

Yes. And I should have said no additional clearancing was required. There was already some light clearance from build 1.

[tpepmeie]

God, I hate timing camshafts. Pwasinger... we need a special fixture to save time! Spent mothers day getting all 4 within .75degree. OK, one needs some rework... it's about 2d out from where I want it.

There has to be an easier way!

[Demps]

Sure is fun when you're done though.

Ted

[tpepmeie]

Hey Ted. Going to bg?


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[Jagdpanzer]

I'm fabing up a special fixture to simultaneously position two dial indicators over both the intake and exhaust lifters. Should reduce setup time a bunch.


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[Demps]

Hey Ted. Going to bg?


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Not this year. My job is killing me.

It would be nice to catch up.

Ted

[tpepmeie]

I'm fabing up a special fixture to simultaneously position two dial indicators over both the intake and exhaust lifters. Should reduce setup time a bunch.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

Consider the first one sold! Here's how GM Motorsports did it with the Indycar engines early 2000's.

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_0817.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_0817.jpg.html)

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_0818.jpg (http://s1036.photobucket.com/user/tpepmeie/media/IMG_0818.jpg.html)

[Jagdpanzer]

Thanks Todd, same approach I have in mind

[tpepmeie]

curved indicator tips would be nice too. Some welding rod and the right die to make the male threads....

Glad for your talents, Phil!

[A26B]

I will be your second customer.

[Jagdpanzer]

Got them both however, using 1/8" drill rod I happened to have around. Die size is 4-48 which is pretty universal for most dial indicators these days.


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[Demps]

D@mn it. #3...
Ted

[Jagdpanzer]

Ted, Amazon time
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0055OQCQC/ref=sr_ph_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1494813986&sr=sr-1&keywords=4-48+die

[2ljd]

#4...


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[Jitse]

I like the dual timing fixture too, would you put me on the list too Phil.

[tf95ZR1]

Todd, the custom LT5 items you displayed at BG
we absolute EYE CANDY! Beyond high end! And
thank you for sponsoring the Pizza & Beer on Wed.

Ted

[efnfast]

Todd, the custom LT5 items you displayed at BG
we absolute EYE CANDY! Beyond high end! And
thank you for sponsoring the Pizza & Beer on Wed.

Ted
Took the words right out of my mouth Ted. - Steve

[Jagdpanzer]

Here is the prototype fixture I fabricated to simultaneously position two dial indicators directly over the intake and exhaust lifters.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170524/6ed699c70a23c4c146e57a6ee6ddcd09.jpg

In case you are wondering the indicators are mounted 10 degrees off vertical for the intake valve and 12 degrees for the exhaust so they track perfectly with lifter travel.



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[oricale]

Here is the prototype fixture I fabricated to simultaneously position two dial indicators directly over the intake and exhaust lifters.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170524/6ed699c70a23c4c146e57a6ee6ddcd09.jpg

In case you are wondering the indicators are mounted 10 degrees off vertical for the intake valve and 12 degrees for the exhaust so they track perfectly with lifter travel.



Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)
Awesome!!!!!!

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[tpepmeie]

I'm a few weeks away, maybe 3, from firing up "Series 2" 427 build on the test stand. Cams are timed, externals are being installed, it goes fast from here.

Any local guys want to show up for the first fire?

Todd

[tpepmeie]

It's a 14.5:1 compression 427, hopefully pushing 770-800 hp.

[Ryan Chappel]

Local guy here..would love to hear that thing fire up..


Hit me with an email...


Ryan Chappel (lenmcfarling@gmail.com)

[tf95ZR1]

Wow, 14.5:1!
What fuel do you plan to run?

[Tripler]

Wish I lived closer . Todd you are an artist extrordinaire .
Make sure to run a vid for us that cannot attend .
:)

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[XfireZ51]

Todd,

When do u plan on doing this? Might be able to combine w a trip to Michigan I'll be doing around June 17.

[jss06c6]

Todd,

Are you going to run E85?

Steve

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[tpepmeie]

Definitely not. Probably VP C12. Maybe C16 on the dyno for added safety margin.

[jss06c6]

Understood. Compression ratio was the basis for the question. Can't wait to see how it runs!

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[diamond zr1]

Todd/great meeting you at pizza night/thanks again/you really do have some nice stuff/good luck on the build/keep us all posted//Was at Coreys today to watch him dyno Scotts cr1 475/he was able to eak out some extra power as he always does/joe

[tpepmeie]

Thanks, Joe. Great talking to you as well. Give Corey my best next time you see him.

[5ABI VT]

Hopefully you can make a video at least a cell clip ? Id be happy to post it on my youtube and instagram ! I also would love to see/hear it of course

[tnova]

Phil,
It appears I'm collecting a "Phil's Tool Set". If you produce the tool, put me down for one also.
Tony - tnova

[tnova]

Todd,
I'm the guy behind you for the porting by GVD. Really appreciate your time and sponsoring the pizza at the Gathering. Your products are machining eye candy. Tony - tnova

[oricale]

I'm fabing up a special fixture to simultaneously position two dial indicators over both the intake and exhaust lifters. Should reduce setup time a bunch.


Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)
Let me know when you have a cost...really could use one of these![emoji6] [emoji106] [emoji106]

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[tpepmeie]

I'm a few weeks away, maybe 3, from firing up "Series 2" 427 build on the test stand. Cams are timed, externals are being installed, it goes fast from here.



Any local guys want to show up for the first fire?



Todd



Firing this bad boy up tomorrow afternoon if anybody wants to come over. Pm me for directions or see the website.




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[Demps]

How far from Florida?
Ted

[tpepmeie]

Lol! A long way. I'll send you video.


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[BigJohn]

15 hours!

[Jagdpanzer]

Good luck Todd!
When the earth starts shaking around Fishers Indiana we'll know why.

[GOLDCYLON]

Good luck Todd the beast will roar :)

[tf95ZR1]

Good Luck, Todd!
I also wish I could be there.

[jss06c6]

Video on your website would be super! That first beautiful marriage of air, spark and fuel is an exciting moment.. good luck, I'm sure it will go well!

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[Ryan Chappel]

I was able to make it over to Todd's place and he fired up the new engine.


Todd had fitted some mufflers to the SW headers he was using, which was sort of disappointing for me, because I really wanted to see the reaction in the 'hood when he started his creation!!


It started on first touch and was quite smooth, settling into a crusty, lopey
idle, and like any LT5 you could almost hear every moving piece in concert.


Todd ran the new engine about two minutes and shut down to eyeball.


I have some cell phone video, and when I can, I'll get it to Todd for his blog.


Thanks Todd.

[-=Jeff=-]

What ECM was used to start up the creation?


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[tpepmeie]

Factory ecm. At this point.


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[-=Jeff=-]

I was gonna say.. impressive tuning and setup in a short time

[tpepmeie]

Blog is updated with a new video.
http://pepmeierenginedevelopment.blogspot.com/2017/07/first-start.html

[jss06c6]

Fabulous work Todd! Congratulations! Loved the steel toes flops..😎 Did you design and build the engine stand or is it commercially available!

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[Tripler]

Awesome Todd . Amazed how it started so easily and what a sound ! Can't wait to see the dyno run results ...
Watchin the vids for the 4th time lol ...

;)

[tpepmeie]

E85 429 CID LT5 ready to light up this weekend.

Big cams, Big Valves, Big Compression. We're going for 800.

[tpepmeie]

I've had it running a year ago, but not E85 and not with the new Fuel Pressure Regulator. Finished the powdercoating on all the top end stuff too. This will run E85 @ 75 PSI rail pressure. I hope to do back-to-back with 112 Leaded on the dyno to see if there is much difference.

[lfalzarano]

Fantastic job!!! Unbelievable creation.


Lou