Clutch & Flywheel Replacement

[c4koh]

All,

Per my other thread (clutch disk disintegration), I'm half-way through the replacement... being, I removed everything and just received from Carolina Clutch a new lightweight aluminum Fidanza flywheel, and Stage 2 kit.

There is not too much written up in the "Solutions" on clutch / flywheel replacement, so I'm going to summarize my notes (I take notes on every task, and also photos, which I then go through backwards upon re-installation... I'll write them up and share). Since I've researched many notes, some replies from folks who have very good experience leave a lot of detail out, and so to help people like me, who may not have the same level of experience, but certainly want to try it - happy to encourage it!

So far, two dilemmas presented themselves, which extensive searching didn't clarify one way or another:

1. re-use of old existing flywheel bolts.
I got a replacement set in the clutch kit from Carolina Clutch, but also got from Jerry's Gaskets the ARP "torque converter" set.
I could not ascertain if the original bolts should be re-used: I could see no information that they were, indeed, torque to yield so I think they could.
However, they are 2 inches long and the different thickness of the single mass flywheel v. the original dual mass flywheel, from what I could gather, confirms need for new, shorter bolts.
I'm traveling at the moment, but will easily confirm this when I get back.

2. use of red loctite on the flywheel bolts and pressure plate.
In the "solutions" section, Red Loctite is recommended for the FW and PP bolts. And I've hunted high and low on the internet, and it seems folks use red, use blue, or use nothing... as long as they're torqued correctly, it seems all good.
Now some folks did have their FW bolts working their way loose, but judging by the post, these may not have been fully torqued and/or the engine was being revved very high (9000+ RPM).
So in conclusion, I think that you could get away without red loctiting them, and the blue is a sort of useful option compared to nothing in keeping them snug.
But... even if you could get away with it, I've decided to red loctite them. My figuring being it certainly can't hurt, but more since the flywheel and pressure plate bolts are very easy to get to, they can be heat-torched out when I replace... so I decided for it.

And one question, which Tom @ CC confirmed, which was "which way around does the [Stage 2] clutch disk go" - answer is the raised spring cage (i.e. where the spring cage extends out of the main plate, and there is the funnel spline tapering out around an inch... the other side of the plate being completely flat)... the flat side should go against the pressure plate, and the raised spring cage and spline snout should poke into the flywheel...
If I understood it correctly, again, I'm traveling so will check when back... but believe so.

Would anyone have any gotchas for putting it all back together? Any other advice?

Will write up my removal and re-installation once complete.

By the way, on a scale of 1-10, getting everything out was a 7. Liquid Wrench used on all bolts, which I do as a matter of course just in case (not sure if every bolt needed it, but since the spray takes 1 second, I do it out of habit). Really not too bad, and the C-Beam plates which I was worried about were no problem at all - just lock a spare wrench above to stop it spinning, and the bolts came right off.

Car is jacked up on 21" "SUV" stands, which works well enough, and with just me (no help!) all was doable... trickiest part was maneuvering the transmission on my makeshift transmission plate (2" x 8" x 1 foot slab of wood with a small 1.5" detent drilled to rest the transmission oil drain plug), placed on a regular jack... I've since got a better transmission jack for that, but perfectly doable by one person.

The only pain was the clutch bell housing bolts, because of their positioning, and the catalyst heat shields bolts (IIRC two small 10mm bolts).

[A26B]

.................................................. ........
1. re-use of old existing flywheel bolts.
I got a replacement set in the clutch kit from Carolina Clutch, but also got from Jerry's Gaskets the ARP "torque converter" set.
I could not ascertain if the original bolts should be re-used: I could see no information that they were, indeed, torque to yield so I think they could.
However, they are 2 inches long and the different thickness of the single mass flywheel v. the original dual mass flywheel, from what I could gather, confirms need for new, shorter bolts.
.................................................. ........................

The original bolts for the Dual Mass Flywheel can be re-used for the same application, BUT not with the Fidanza alum flywheel, they are too long.

I don't know anything about the ARP "torque converter" set of ARP bolts. We buy our ARP flywheel bolts in bulk from ARP, as per our size specification. They are packaged by us in sets of 8 bolts & washers. They may be used as "torque converter" bolts but that's not how we specify & buy from ARP.

[Demps]

My LLs: Be sure to clean the PP & flywheel contact surfaces with brake cleaner. Light grease on trans shaft where disk slides. Torque sequence and gradually tighten as you go is important. Ball stud in, rotate bell housing ~60 deg, catch throw-out collar, rotate bell housing in place (alignment dowels on side), tighten stud to spec. Light grease on fork contact and slave-to-fork pivot. Depress clutch pedal for trans last ~1inch of closure. Put trans boot fully around tunnel--drivers side sporty--loosen side panel inside plus work tab under car before c-beam tight (trans full up).

Cryptic but it'll make sense.

Ted

[c4koh]

Demps - not cryptic at all. I've been obsessing about the clutch, transmission and flywheel for the last week ... kind of on my mind until all is done! I already have brake cleaner ready for the cleaning! All good.

@Jerry - other folks recommend the ARP by part number, which you can see (as example) here http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-230-7303/ from summit, which are certainly the same spec, but here classed as torque converter bolts... I guess they could be called whatever they want!

Recommendation to all, though - the 230-7303 ARP set itself being $12-$15 for the set at regular places, and being 3 in that set, of course means 3 packs would be needed... therefore Jerry's set - http://jerrysgaskets.com/store2/root/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10&products_id=877 make much more sense... better value, and without the one spare bolt!

[WVZR-1]

The original bolts for the Dual Mass Flywheel can be re-used for the same application, BUT not with the Fidanza alum flywheel, they are too long.

I don't know anything about the ARP "torque converter" set of ARP bolts. We buy our ARP flywheel bolts in bulk from ARP, as per our size specification. They are packaged by us in sets of 8 bolts & washers. They may be used as "torque converter" bolts but that's not how we specify & buy from ARP.

Jerry,

Is there a shoulder on your flywheel bolts? I don't recall that being mentioned in the previous thread.

[Paul Workman]

IIRC, when I installed my Fidanza, the ARP PP bolts (long) came with a thread tap in the kit, specifically to provide more purchase into the aluminum FW.

I DID use RED Locktite on the 8 FW bolts, and I DID tap the Fidanza for the slightly longer ARP bolts, and I did put blue Locktite on the pressure plate bolts before torquing them down. That was 5 years ago, and so far so good.

Anywayz... relatively (if not actually longer) deeper purchase of the PP bolts in the aluminum Fidanza was in harmony with my sense of "good engineering practice". YMMV.

Paul

[A26B]

Jerry,

Is there a shoulder on your flywheel bolts? I don't recall that being mentioned in the previous thread.

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-nkg90o/products/22/images/283/10202539__64149.1413692164.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

[5ABI VT]

Great thread. Should be starting mine in the next few days finally. All the fork and ball stud stuff worries me I've never fiddled with a clutch before but it's never too late to learn !

I did write Down somewhere the torque specs maybe you already know them not sure.

[5ABI VT]

I took a few pics earlier here's the bolts cc included for the stg2.

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb463/Emm3Speed/ZR-1%20Clutch%20flywheel%20install/8D9D4420-4FF3-4463-BDA5-EE480B6A9350_zpsjzi1pafe.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/Emm3Speed/media/ZR-1%20Clutch%20flywheel%20install/8D9D4420-4FF3-4463-BDA5-EE480B6A9350_zpsjzi1pafe.jpg.html)

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb463/Emm3Speed/ZR-1%20Clutch%20flywheel%20install/2FA81B24-5BCC-40D0-B35E-EC2B8AB11EDB_zpsbl7f1l8z.jpg (http://s1207.photobucket.com/user/Emm3Speed/media/ZR-1%20Clutch%20flywheel%20install/2FA81B24-5BCC-40D0-B35E-EC2B8AB11EDB_zpsbl7f1l8z.jpg.html)

[5ABI VT]

http://jerrysgaskets.com/store2/root/images/10202539.jpg

Im assuming these replace the gold bolts I posted above ? I don't even know which bolts are for pp or flywheel but the gold ones had washers too. I think I need to order a set for peace of mind!

[c4koh]

Well - finished the job and will make a more detailed write-up including tool sizes and photos at some point over the next weeks...

Summary of my first clutch change as below:

Just finished 2 and half weekends of part-time maintenance, with a change of clutch and new Fidanza flywheel, courtesy of Carolina Clutch... working under 21" of raised car (SUV jackstands), and a very unweildy 160lb ZF transmission, there was quite a bit of exasperation, swearing, head scratching... but finally put the exhaust and the shifter parts back on today, fired her up and all working... relief!
Anyone thinking to do the clutch by themselves (which I've done - only time I needed help was my wife to depress the clutch pedal while shoving the tranny back in...), it's a doable job...
Exhaust out (easy enough)
Prop shaft out (very, very easy - though make sure the rear wheels can move and parking brake off so you can rotate the shaft around to get to the 4 bolts)
Drive / C-beam out (medium). The 4 bolts (2 front, 2 rear) are a tiny bit of a pain to get your hands to, but doable; just make sure you have another wrench over them to stop them spinning while you take out the bolts.
Shuffles out relatively easy - just tip the transmission /engine down a bit.
Transmission out (medium). The 5 bolts to bellhousing were easy enough to get to, but needs careful shifting and gentle, VERY gentle, pressure to get it out of the clutch & bearing... For the transmission removal, I did *not* have a transmission jack (I got one for putting it back in), so it was a pain with a regular floor jack to lower it, but carefully done it was OK.
Bellhousing (PITA) - the bolts are all a pain to get to. Invest in some decent u-joint / bendable sockets and extensions, makes it much easier.
I didn't need to remove the fork ball, just rotated and slid it off... bit of shuffling, but it came off the throwout bearing no problem.
Clutch out (easy) - only thing is you'll need gloves / shoprag to hold the flywheel teeth, which are sharp.
Flywheel out (easy, though I did use an impact wrench to remove the 8 bolts).
Pilot bearing out - easy. I used a slide hammer with bearing puller which made it a 2 minute job.
New Pilot bearing - easy enough. I used the old one over the new one as a means to tap it in, worked well. I was not sure how far "inside" the depression it was supposed to go - the bearing is about 3/4" deep, but the cavity is around 1.5" from flywheel face to crank plug... I'd forgotten to photo it, so instead tapped it back until it was completely snug... it's a slight taper before the pilot bore, so I tapped it back to the finish of the taper, so it's "inside" not flush with the flywheel, but in around 1/2".
New Flywheel in (easy - I also used red loctite while torquing it down).
New Clutch / PP plate (ditto)
Bellhousing back... (less PITA, easier to torque down than try and break loose fastened bolts. I used blue loctite on these.
Same amount of shuffling to get the fork back in, but nothing serious.
Transmission back - HARD. Took a while to position it, pain, and it's very heavy... and you need a clutch depressed to point the snout into the pilot bearing... and that last inch... Took me about an hour!
After figuring out the best way, it then took a few minutes! The 5 bolts that connect the transmission to the bellhousing are quite short, and if you need that last inch, they wont go through the transmission bolt and bite into the housing... So, if you have a longer, same-spec bolt, you can use this to bite and pull it in - this worked a charm... transmission was then mated, and other 4 bolts went in, then replaced the temporary bolt with that.
C-beam back - easy, but only after learning you need to tip the transmission and engine down to slide it over the transmission first, then back over the rear drive.
Prop shaft back - very easy. Careful not to have the cap with tiny needle pin bearings open... ask me how I know... The FSM does say to tape it. I didn't. Lesson learned.
Exhaust back - medium - bit of a pain frankly to position it all in, and the spring bolts were a pain too...
All in all completely doable with patience, Factory Service Manual invaluable, as is iPhone to take photos at all stages to work back from. Haynes and Chilton useless for the task - not used whatsoever.
HTH.

Editing to add:
The old Dual Mass flywheel had ZERO flywheel weights in any of the 24 notches. The new lightweight Fidanza, according to Tom @ CC is probably good for up to 2 or 3 balance weights in that original flywheel, but clearly zero is perfect as the CNC new flywheel is pretty balanced anyway from all accounts. That, and many, many people saying they just put in the Fidanza straight from the box, I did the same.
Rattle? Pretty muted, actually. I was expecting a really loud rattle like a can of ball bearings, but it's more like a can of heavy ballbearings / marbles, but in a carpetted can... a sort of muffled rattly noise... and not really very noticeable.

Transmission Oil - went with ZFDoc's recommendation of the BMW M Castrol 10W60; I'd put MTL Redline in the last time (8 years ago...) which seemed nice enough but this Castrol stuff is THICK. Took a while to pour it down the funnel and hosepipe, I can tell you!

[5ABI VT]

Well - finished the job and will make a more detailed write-up including tool sizes and photos at some point over the next weeks...

Summary of my first clutch change as below:

Just finished 2 and half weekends of part-time maintenance, with a change of clutch and new Fidanza flywheel, courtesy of Carolina Clutch... working under 21" of raised car (SUV jackstands), and a very unweildy 160lb ZF transmission, there was quite a bit of exasperation, swearing, head scratching... but finally put the exhaust and the shifter parts back on today, fired her up and all working... relief!
Anyone thinking to do the clutch by themselves (which I've done - only time I needed help was my wife to depress the clutch pedal while shoving the tranny back in...), it's a doable job...
Exhaust out (easy enough)
Prop shaft out (very, very easy - though make sure the rear wheels can move and parking brake off so you can rotate the shaft around to get to the 4 bolts)
Drive / C-beam out (medium). The 4 bolts (2 front, 2 rear) are a tiny bit of a pain to get your hands to, but doable; just make sure you have another wrench over them to stop them spinning while you take out the bolts.
Shuffles out relatively easy - just tip the transmission /engine down a bit.
Transmission out (medium). The 5 bolts to bellhousing were easy enough to get to, but needs careful shifting and gentle, VERY gentle, pressure to get it out of the clutch & bearing... For the transmission removal, I did *not* have a transmission jack (I got one for putting it back in), so it was a pain with a regular floor jack to lower it, but carefully done it was OK.
Bellhousing (PITA) - the bolts are all a pain to get to. Invest in some decent u-joint / bendable sockets and extensions, makes it much easier.
I didn't need to remove the fork ball, just rotated and slid it off... bit of shuffling, but it came off the throwout bearing no problem.
Clutch out (easy) - only thing is you'll need gloves / shoprag to hold the flywheel teeth, which are sharp.
Flywheel out (easy, though I did use an impact wrench to remove the 8 bolts).
Pilot bearing out - easy. I used a slide hammer with bearing puller which made it a 2 minute job.
New Pilot bearing - easy enough. I used the old one over the new one as a means to tap it in, worked well. I was not sure how far "inside" the depression it was supposed to go - the bearing is about 3/4" deep, but the cavity is around 1.5" from flywheel face to crank plug... I'd forgotten to photo it, so instead tapped it back until it was completely snug... it's a slight taper before the pilot bore, so I tapped it back to the finish of the taper, so it's "inside" not flush with the flywheel, but in around 1/2".
New Flywheel in (easy - I also used red loctite while torquing it down).
New Clutch / PP plate (ditto)
Bellhousing back... (less PITA, easier to torque down than try and break loose fastened bolts. I used blue loctite on these.
Same amount of shuffling to get the fork back in, but nothing serious.
Transmission back - HARD. Took a while to position it, pain, and it's very heavy... and you need a clutch depressed to point the snout into the pilot bearing... and that last inch... Took me about an hour!
After figuring out the best way, it then took a few minutes! The 5 bolts that connect the transmission to the bellhousing are quite short, and if you need that last inch, they wont go through the transmission bolt and bite into the housing... So, if you have a longer, same-spec bolt, you can use this to bite and pull it in - this worked a charm... transmission was then mated, and other 4 bolts went in, then replaced the temporary bolt with that.
C-beam back - easy, but only after learning you need to tip the transmission and engine down to slide it over the transmission first, then back over the rear drive.
Prop shaft back - very easy. Careful not to have the cap with tiny needle pin bearings open... ask me how I know... The FSM does say to tape it. I didn't. Lesson learned.
Exhaust back - medium - bit of a pain frankly to position it all in, and the spring bolts were a pain too...
All in all completely doable with patience, Factory Service Manual invaluable, as is iPhone to take photos at all stages to work back from. Haynes and Chilton useless for the task - not used whatsoever.
HTH.

Editing to add:
The old Dual Mass flywheel had ZERO flywheel weights in any of the 24 notches. The new lightweight Fidanza, according to Tom @ CC is probably good for up to 2 or 3 balance weights in that original flywheel, but clearly zero is perfect as the CNC new flywheel is pretty balanced anyway from all accounts. That, and many, many people saying they just put in the Fidanza straight from the box, I did the same.
Rattle? Pretty muted, actually. I was expecting a really loud rattle like a can of ball bearings, but it's more like a can of heavy ballbearings / marbles, but in a carpetted can... a sort of muffled rattly noise... and not really very noticeable.

Transmission Oil - went with ZFDoc's recommendation of the BMW M Castrol 10W60; I'd put MTL Redline in the last time (8 years ago...) which seemed nice enough but this Castrol stuff is THICK. Took a while to pour it down the funnel and hosepipe, I can tell you!


Big thank you =) just finished a 16 hr shift.. Going home to pass out and wake up and start mine tonight :) this has given me renewed confidence to get in there.

Any details on the arp bolts .. Was it any issue because they don't have a shoulder etc ? I want to order a set myself.

[c4koh]

Any details on the arp bolts .. Was it any issue because they don't have a shoulder etc ? I want to order a set myself.

Well, the ARP bolts did have a slight shoulder (say around 1/2" diameter of shoulder on the 7/16" head (IIRC)...), so that'd be about 1/16" of shoulder proud of the head... but the washers that were supplied by Jerry (Jerry's Gaskets) rounded it out to maybe 1/2" or 9/16", so certainly a bit more meat.

They went in snug, only thing to note is that they're 12 point, and 7/16" - which of course I didn't have a 12pt socket in that size (just 6pt)... For the flywheel, and especially wanting to torque them correctly, I didn't want to risk rounding them and using at 6pt socket.... All torqueing of bolts back (for flywheel, with red loctite, and for clutch pressure plate to flywheel, also with red loctite) were carefully torqued to Factory Service Manual specification, in the star pattern indicated in the FSM.

To be honest, the only pains were the clutch-housing bolts, getting the transmission back in, and removing/re-installing the drive C-beam (until I found out to tip the engine and tranny down a little!).

FYI I calculated hours spent to be around 25 hours for everything: jacking up, preparation, all parts removal, writing up as I went along, and re-installation... I'd also think if I did it again, knowing what I know now, I'd be able to do it in half that - i.e. a long day. I also coated the exhaust fitting bolts with copper grease, for the 3 flange bolts (LHS, front), each of the 4 spring bolts, and the two back J connectors to the rubber supports.

But above all, absolutely doable by yourself - if I can, anyone can!

Steve

[ghlkal]

Good work :cheers:

The 5 bolts that connect the transmission to the bellhousing are quite short, and if you need that last inch, they wont go through the transmission bolt and bite into the housing... So, if you have a longer, same-spec bolt, you can use this to bite and pull it in - this worked a charm... transmission was then mated, and other 4 bolts went in, then replaced the temporary bolt with that.


This is a great tip

[Franke]

Excellent work and write up. I for one would like to know how the car runs and reacts to the new flywheel/clutch setup.
I don't know if this is a help or not but in the past on other 4 speed cars I got longer tranny bolts and cut the heads off. Then I threaded them into the bell housing to use as a guide rail for the tranny to slide on into the clutch. I also used a centering tool for the clutch disc. Usually the tranny seated all the way with just a twist of the output shaft while in gear. If the tranny didn't seat all the way then I had someone else release the clutch and all was good. I don't know if there is enough room in the tunnel of the Z to do this.