Trans Questions.....Hard Going Into Gear

[Rumbln70SS]

Hey all, brand new owner here!

I just got the car and I have some questions about the transmission.

It's extremely hard going in and out of gear, particularly first and reverse. The other thing I notice is when the clutch is in and the car is in gear or I am trying to get it in gear, it creeps forward. The clutch grabs low on the floor so I don't think it's worn out. Is there some type of adjustment?

Something else I notice a good bit of noise when the clutch is out and it's in neutral.

Help is greatly appreciated!

[We Gone]

First, Check the clutch master cylinder under the ECM just above the battery, be sure the fluid is not empty. The noise you hear may be the duel mass flywheel.

[Rumbln70SS]

Steve,

Thanks buddy, I appreciate it! Does this look right? LOL :)

This car has a Spec stage 2 clutch and aluminum Fidnaza flywheel. Learning all the time.

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n389/Rumblin70SS/ZR-1/38CC260E-5BB1-4927-BE61-1DBD74C6FCD1_zpslmveviqi.jpg (http://s337.photobucket.com/user/Rumblin70SS/media/ZR-1/38CC260E-5BB1-4927-BE61-1DBD74C6FCD1_zpslmveviqi.jpg.html)

[csavaglio]

Welcome to ZR-1 ownership. First, with the problems your describing, don't drive the car until it's sorted. Problems with the clutch not disengaging will quickly do very expensive damage to your transmission. ZF-Doc, probably the best builder of ZF transmissions, said to me that this is the most common cause of damage he's seen over the years.

Your clutch pedal should start to release fairly high up on the pedal travel. If it's releasing low, there's a problem with your hydraulics. If it creeps with the clutch pedal pushed in, it means it's not fully disengaging.

One of the first things I do on any 6 speed vette is to pull the clutch master cylinder and slave cylinder and send them to Jim Jandik at Power Torque Systems to be rebuilt. Jim's done 3 or 4 sets for me. His work and customer service is first class and the turnaround is fast. I believe he's around $120 to rebuild both. He uses OEM parts that he bought out when the original company got out of the business.

http://www.powertorquesystems.com/index.htm

It sounds to me like your either low on fluid (which means there's a leak since the fluid level raises as the clutch wears) and/or your master or slave is worn out where they're not getting the pressure and travel you should have.

These are typically neglected items and can do major damage to the transmission if not working properly. Unless you know for sure they were just done, I'd send them out. 120 bucks is cheap insurance for a $2000-4000 transmission.....



Chris

[RICHARD TILL]

You`ve found the problem. Fill it up, monitor it`s level and search for possible leaks.

[csavaglio]

I can't see the photos here at work. But if it's missing fluid, it went somewhere...be careful, because it can leak behind the master cylinder like a brake master cylinder and the slave can leak into the boot and into the bellhousing.

Good luck!
Chris

[ZZZZZR1]

I would change the clutch fluid (don't just fill it up)

The cause could be old fluid, not just lack of

Also change the trans fluid too...

:cheers:

David

[csavaglio]

I got home and checked the pic. I wouldn't trust it if it got that low. The fluid went somewhere. There's nowhere for the fluid to go unless there's a leak somewhere. Typically, it's the slave that goes first and you'll see fluid where the pushrod comes out inside the rubber boot. You might see fluid behind the master cylinder if you crawl up under the dash and look at the firewall. Less likely, it could be the line itself or a loose fitting.

Either way, with the fluid looking that black, it's unlikely any of those components have ever been properly serviced. If it were my car, I'd send them off for rebuilding. Don't go to the parts store...the ones they sell are junk....cast cases instead of welded, poor quality and they don't fit right.

I had Jim rebuild the ones on my LT4 cars and my ZR-1. Amazing the difference even on my Z, which weren't leaking but had degraded in stroke and hydraulic power.

Oh, and the noise you're hearing is from the lightweight flywheel. The original, heavy, multipiece unit dampened the noise. In my current LT4, I have a heavy single piece flywheel and I get some grumbling from it when in neutral and when easing very gently from a stop.

Chris

[Rumbln70SS]

Guys,

First off, thanks so much for responding, I really appreciate it! After some additional investigation, it looks like the slave cylinder. Ever since I got the car on Memorial Day I have had some spots of fluid under it. Honestly I thought it was engine oil but now after closer inspection, it appears to be clutch fluid.

Per Chris's reccomendation I have sent an email to Jim inquiring about pricing to rebuild/exchange both and the turnaround time. I am no longer driving the car either. I'll probably give Jim a call tomorrow as I'm sure he is busy like everyone else.

What looks like a little bit of dirty fluid in the bottom of the master is actually a coating of muck as best as I can describe it. I'm sure the slave is the same way.

A rebuild and fresh fluid will hopefully straighten the shifting woes out.

As Dave suggested I will also be changing the tranny fluid....what do you guys reccommend?

Thanks for explanation of the tranny noise with the aluminum flywheel......I might need to put some dynamat in this car!

I'll keep you all abreast of my progress!

[csavaglio]

Glad you'll get it sorted. Jim's a great guy and the turnaround is fast. He'll explain everything on the phone. He uses all OEM stuff and you're parts will be better than new when he's done. As I recall, they were around $120 plus shipping in a flat rate box. The last set he did for me was about 3 or 4 months ago.

As far as tranny fluid goes, I use Amsoil Synchromesh Transmission Fluid. As far as I know, the only current stuff on the market that the ZF builders recommend is the Amsoil, GM oil (which I don't believe is recommended by ZF themselves) and Castrol TWS 10w-60. The Castrol fluid is actually the motor oil they use for the BMW M-series cars. It's expensive....around $20 a quart and the only place I've seen it is at the BMW dealer.

I used the Castrol fluid a while back in one of my LT4's, but switched to Amsoil. I had no problems with either, but the Amsoil shifts a little smoother since it's a little thinner. It's also a bit cheaper and, the big plus, I don't have to go anywhere near a Bimmer dealer to get it....

Oh, when you do the transmission oil, make sure you can remove the fill plug BEFORE pulling the train plug.....

Chris

[Racinfan83]

Here's a link to a DIY I did on mine..
http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20819

[zr-1.R1]

Good evening to all, for the clutch master cylinder, brake oil dot 4 is compatible?
thanks

[Rumbln70SS]

Glad you'll get it sorted. Jim's a great guy and the turnaround is fast. He'll explain everything on the phone. He uses all OEM stuff and you're parts will be better than new when he's done. As I recall, they were around $120 plus shipping in a flat rate box. The last set he did for me was about 3 or 4 months ago.

As far as tranny fluid goes, I use Amsoil Synchromesh Transmission Fluid. As far as I know, the only current stuff on the market that the ZF builders recommend is the Amsoil, GM oil (which I don't believe is recommended by ZF themselves) and Castrol TWS 10w-60. The Castrol fluid is actually the motor oil they use for the BMW M-series cars. It's expensive....around $20 a quart and the only place I've seen it is at the BMW dealer.

I used the Castrol fluid a while back in one of my LT4's, but switched to Amsoil. I had no problems with either, but the Amsoil shifts a little smoother since it's a little thinner. It's also a bit cheaper and, the big plus, I don't have to go anywhere near a Bimmer dealer to get it....

Oh, when you do the transmission oil, make sure you can remove the fill plug BEFORE pulling the train plug.....

Chris

Chris, thanks again for your insight. I called Jim today and am waiting on a call back. I think I will go with the Amsoil fluid. Oh and I can't complain about Bimmers since I own one :)

Are these trannies smooth when they are right? How do they compare to a T56?

Good call on the fill plug......that would suck lol.

Here's a link to a DIY I did on mine..
http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20819

Great writeup! I'll use some of your tips for sure.

[Rumbln70SS]

Update:

Talked to Jim today from Power Torque Systems. Seems like a real nice guy and very knowledgeable. He mentioned that I have to have original parts in order to rebuild them so I started tearing into the car this evening.


Low and behold I have original parts! I was able to get the master off, but I am having a little trouble with the slave. Anyone have any tips/tricks to getting it out? Mounting bolts are out, but I can't seem to get to the steel line and remove the unit.


One other question, my third brake light is not working. When I got under the dash, I noticed there isn't a connector plugged in. What color are the wires that connect to it? I found a few things unplugged and I need to figure that out before inspection again. Looks like someone removed the whole ABS system at one time.

[Racinfan83]

Not sure exactly which wires go to what - but there are 2 brake light switches. My 3rd light wasn't working and one of the two switches was bad... Wish I could help more but the dealer fixed this one while I had it there for inspection...

[We Gone]

One of the brake switches is for the CC.

[Mystic ZR-1]

One of the brake switches is for the CC.

CC and a splash?
;)

[Rumbln70SS]

One of the brake switches is for the CC.

LoL and mine is disconnected :) There are a few wires tapped and spliced under the dash.....maybe the result of ABS removal.

Got everything off tonight......shipped to Jim tomorrow for the rebuild....does anyone sell the replacement hard line? Mine is tweaked just a bit.

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n389/Rumblin70SS/ZR-1/B9F039CE-8F95-43C3-B392-B79BD2525B41_zpsubdx5eoa.jpg (http://s337.photobucket.com/user/Rumblin70SS/media/ZR-1/B9F039CE-8F95-43C3-B392-B79BD2525B41_zpsubdx5eoa.jpg.html)

[Rumbln70SS]

Not sure exactly which wires go to what - but there are 2 brake light switches. My 3rd light wasn't working and one of the two switches was bad... Wish I could help more but the dealer fixed this one while I had it there for inspection...

Hey thanks anyways! People on this forum are great!

[csavaglio]

Not sure about the wires or the 3rd brake light and how it's tied to the abs stuff.

As far as the getting to the line going into the slave cylinder, it's a braided steel flexible line....like the braided lines a lot of guys use for brake lines. You should be able to pull the slave out (with some wiggling), drop it a little, and get a line wrench on the line.

Worst case, and I haven't had to do this on any of the ones I've done (2 LT4s and a ZR-1), you can unbolt the little bracket that holds the line to the frame or firewall to give more play....just follow the line down from the topside and you should be able to get to the retainer. Like I said, I've never had to do that, though.

I've always found the master to be a whole lot harder to get out. It was easy on the LT4 cars compared to the Z....a whole lot less wiring and stuff in that area.

When you put it back together, you can put the line on, tighten it up, then wiggle it back in there, feed the two bolts in and tighten them down.

Jim's a great guy and will answer your questions extremely specifically if you ask him. I don't get anything out of referring people to him, except that it keeps him in business so that I can go to him later too!

Chris

[Bob Eyres]

BTW, that ZF6 fill plug takes a 17mm Allen wrench to open. And a pipe for leverage. It's usually in there tight.
I've used the GM factory fill and the Castrol. Both Good, but I'll try the Amsoil next time.
Good idea to stay away from the Bimmer store. My 335 just got out of warranty and now I avoid that place like the plague. :jawdrop:

[Jim Nolan]

I guess I'm lucky the local BMW dealer only charged me $9.50 a bottle for the Casrtol last year. He owns alot of different dealerships so I guess he doesn't need that much profit. By the way get a factory service manual, everything you need to know and then some is right there.

[Rumbln70SS]

Not sure about the wires or the 3rd brake light and how it's tied to the abs stuff.

As far as the getting to the line going into the slave cylinder, it's a braided steel flexible line....like the braided lines a lot of guys use for brake lines. You should be able to pull the slave out (with some wiggling), drop it a little, and get a line wrench on the line.

Worst case, and I haven't had to do this on any of the ones I've done (2 LT4s and a ZR-1), you can unbolt the little bracket that holds the line to the frame or firewall to give more play....just follow the line down from the topside and you should be able to get to the retainer. Like I said, I've never had to do that, though.

I've always found the master to be a whole lot harder to get out. It was easy on the LT4 cars compared to the Z....a whole lot less wiring and stuff in that area.

When you put it back together, you can put the line on, tighten it up, then wiggle it back in there, feed the two bolts in and tighten them down.

Jim's a great guy and will answer your questions extremely specifically if you ask him. I don't get anything out of referring people to him, except that it keeps him in business so that I can go to him later too!

Chris

Chris,

I resolved the brake light issue as it ended up being the switch. What threw me off was the fact that there were no wires to the second switch and I couldn't find anything that looked like a correct plug-in. After a google search I found out that's how it appears it should be so I spent $8.00 for a new switch and now I have the third brake light working again. I'll test the cruise once it's back on the road.

As for the slave, I did exactly as you suggested and unbolted the line. I pulled the slave and line out so I could get to the fitting properly without stripping it. My line isn't a braided line but more like an AC hose as shown below. Does anyone make a steel braided replacement? I'm going to ask Jim the same question as well.

My master was easily actually, but I did remove the battery and loosen the ECM to get to it.

I'm glad you suggested Jim. I enjoy supporting small business he really knows his stuff. I fully expect it to be better than new and you can't beat the price.

Thanks for all your help!

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n389/Rumblin70SS/ZR-1/EDB28EDF-9790-4AE1-AE6D-C02CA6DB9FFE_zpsega1ovim.jpg


http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n389/Rumblin70SS/ZR-1/AB0C2018-6541-4D01-8710-226D5181AE60_zpsogpa51e4.jpg

BTW, that ZF6 fill plug takes a 17mm Allen wrench to open. And a pipe for leverage. It's usually in there tight.
I've used the GM factory fill and the Castrol. Both Good, but I'll try the Amsoil next time.
Good idea to stay away from the Bimmer store. My 335 just got out of warranty and now I avoid that place like the plague. :jawdrop:

Thank you Bob! Looks like mine was recently serviced as the drain plug has fresh Teflon tape on it. I'm still changing it so I know what fluid is in the car. Hopefully the Amsoil is worth the money. I believe I have the Allen wrench but I will pick it up if not.

As far as Bimmers, I like my 335, but I didn't have good experiences at the dealer. The service teams appear professional, but it took multiple tries to fix a missing problem and they never did resolve a rattle I have upon startup.

I guess I'm lucky the local BMW dealer only charged me $9.50 a bottle for the Casrtol last year. He owns alot of different dealerships so I guess he doesn't need that much profit. By the way get a factory service manual, everything you need to know and then some is right there.

Thanks Jim, I am going to grab one of those manuals off of eBay if there's one available.

[csavaglio]

Oh, it looks like 1990 and 1991 were different. 1991-96 had a braided soft line like this:

www.zip-corvette.com/catalog/product/view/id/7727/s/91-96-clutch-pressure-hose-assembly/category/7950/

I would've thought 1989-96 would've been the same since the cylinders are. Yours is correct for a '90.

The startup rattle is fairly common. It's the timing chains. It has to do with no oil being in the top of the motor at startup.

I think a big help here is to use a filter with a good anti drain valve and a good motor oil. Most of the filters today listed as correct don't have any anti drain features at all. If I recall, the current Delco filters do. Marc Haibreck has a good writeup on his site about the filters and oils to use. Our motors are flat tappett, so the require an oil with lots of ZDDP. Most oils have little to none these days, even diesel oil. And you'll want to search this site for the proper way to change the oil. It's not the same as a normal motor.

Glad you've got it well on its way!

[Rumbln70SS]

Oh, it looks like 1990 and 1991 were different. 1991-96 had a braided soft line like this:

www.zip-corvette.com/catalog/product/view/id/7727/s/91-96-clutch-pressure-hose-assembly/category/7950/

I would've thought 1989-96 would've been the same since the cylinders are. Yours is correct for a '90.

The startup rattle is fairly common. It's the timing chains. It has to do with no oil being in the top of the motor at startup.

I think a big help here is to use a filter with a good anti drain valve and a good motor oil. Most of the filters today listed as correct don't have any anti drain features at all. If I recall, the current Delco filters do. Marc Haibreck has a good writeup on his site about the filters and oils to use. Our motors are flat tappett, so the require an oil with lots of ZDDP. Most oils have little to none these days, even diesel oil. And you'll want to search this site for the proper way to change the oil. It's not the same as a normal motor.

Glad you've got it well on its way!

Well that makes more sense with the line. At $110.00 plus shipping I might keep the old one for now until I get other things sorted.

The rattle I was referring to was actually my BMW, but I'm glad you sent me to Marc Halibecks site. Some excellent info there, especially the oil and filter reccomendations. I have been dealing with roller cams so long I forgot about the flat tappets requiring ZDDP. The car does have a NAPA filter currently.

I will definitely look up the oil change before I do one.

[csavaglio]

Tony,
I wasn't meaning to suggest you change your line...just wanted to show what the 91-96 style was and what I was thinking of when I posted about mine.

Marc did post an update to the oil filter testing he did a few years ago, so be sure to look at the latest. As far as I know, the current Delco filters are good, so I bought a handful to store when I need them (since nobody in town carries them anyway). The NAPA/WIX filters are also supposed to be good, but, superficially, I think the blue Delco ones look more proper on top than the white Napa ones, even though I believe the originals were black.

C

[Jim Nolan]

I mask over the label and spray mine semi-gloss black before installation. Looks like an original, except it is about a 1/2 inch shorter. Only a anal expert can tell the difference. There was a guy on this site that reproduced the original silver and black PF-970 labels. Got some of them to.

Jim

[Rumbln70SS]

Tony,
I wasn't meaning to suggest you change your line...just wanted to show what the 91-96 style was and what I was thinking of when I posted about mine.

Marc did post an update to the oil filter testing he did a few years ago, so be sure to look at the latest. As far as I know, the current Delco filters are good, so I bought a handful to store when I need them (since nobody in town carries them anyway). The NAPA/WIX filters are also supposed to be good, but, superficially, I think the blue Delco ones look more proper on top than the white Napa ones, even though I believe the originals were black.

C

No worries Chris! I actually wanted to replace it, but I figured I would hold off because of the price. I talked with Jim today and as long as the rubber on mine is in good shape, there was no real benefit in replacing it.

I'm going to see if I can't find the AC filter locally.......if i can't I'll probably just go with the NAPA unit again. I can't recall hearing any chain rattle when it starts, but I'll be sure to listen closely next time I fire it up.

I mask over the label and spray mine semi-gloss black before installation. Looks like an original, except it is about a 1/2 inch shorter. Only a anal expert can tell the difference. There was a guy on this site that reproduced the original silver and black PF-970 labels. Got some of them to.

Jim

Thanks Jim! As modded as this car is, no one will notice the filter color, but that's a good tip for a stocker!!

Tony

[csavaglio]

I got a small pile of the AC filters on Ebay for around $6 each with free shipping. There's several vendors and it's not a big deal to order up several years worth.

My local Napa's don't even carry theirs and would have to order anyway.

C

[Rumbln70SS]

I got a small pile of the AC filters on Ebay for around $6 each with free shipping. There's several vendors and it's not a big deal to order up several years worth.

My local Napa's don't even carry theirs and would have to order anyway.

C

I didn't even think about eBay to be honest and the price was right on those filters too!

I talked with Jim today and he was able to rebuild my master for the clutch. He had said that the slave was too far gone to rebuild. His words were that it looked like a high school kids acne with all the pits it had.

He didn't have any 1990 spares so he is sending along a later unit. It appears that it will work but I won't know for sure until I get it all bolted up.

Jim's a great guy, very detailed and a big help in getting this job completed. Thanks so much for reccomending him.

[csavaglio]

I think you'll be ok on the slave. I believe the difference is the angle that the bleed screw is set at. It points straight down on the later one.

If it doesn't work, though, Zip is now carrying correct, stamped steel bodied slave cylinders (as opposed to the cast junk you get at most parts stores and mail order places).

I second your thoughts on Jim. He was great about answering my questions on bleeding the system after I got the rebuilt units back on the car. One trick, after you get the initial bleed done, is to jack the rear of the car up and let it sit overnight. The hose connection is at the rear of the slave and at the front of the master, so putting the car up at a nose down angle, helps let the air work it's way to the top.

I don't bother with the bleed screw on the slave cylinder once there's a little fluid in the slave cylinder. Basically, I fill the master, crack open the bleed screw and work the clutch until fluid starts coming out the bleeder (into a tube to keep the mess down). Then I close up the bleeder and start working the clutch down to the floor and back up. Just make sure you keep fluid in the master cylinder's reservoir.

C

[Rumbln70SS]

I think you'll be ok on the slave. I believe the difference is the angle that the bleed screw is set at. It points straight down on the later one.

If it doesn't work, though, Zip is now carrying correct, stamped steel bodied slave cylinders (as opposed to the cast junk you get at most parts stores and mail order places).

I second your thoughts on Jim. He was great about answering my questions on bleeding the system after I got the rebuilt units back on the car. One trick, after you get the initial bleed done, is to jack the rear of the car up and let it sit overnight. The hose connection is at the rear of the slave and at the front of the master, so putting the car up at a nose down angle, helps let the air work it's way to the top.

I don't bother with the bleed screw on the slave cylinder once there's a little fluid in the slave cylinder. Basically, I fill the master, crack open the bleed screw and work the clutch until fluid starts coming out the bleeder (into a tube to keep the mess down). Then I close up the bleeder and start working the clutch down to the floor and back up. Just make sure you keep fluid in the master cylinder's reservoir.

C

Thanks for all the tips Chris! When I talked with Jim, he gave me the suggestion of installing the slave with the line and using an oil can with a hose attached to the bleeder to force the fluid up to the master, so we'll see what works.

I got my parts back on Friday, but due to all the issues with my BMW needing a water pump I have not installed them. I will be doing the job tomorrow evening.

Below is a shot of the completed parts. I didn't have Jim do all the paintwork he normally does on the parts because honestly I am more interested in getting the car up and running than the minor details. Once it's a solid driver I'll do the detail work.

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n389/Rumblin70SS/ZR-1/E9720C57-6016-4170-B0E7-ED66F6879DDB_zpsxi6fh5uf.jpg

Below is he inside of the slave that came on my car. As you can see, it was beyond repair and another indication the car sat for a while.

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n389/Rumblin70SS/ZR-1/2EA343FA-1B77-449E-9BE9-643FFBF4BB6D_zpsocsv2s0o.jpg

This came in today as well.....I have an aquaintance that is a dealer so I figured I would try it out to see if the trans shifts cleaner, plus I know what's in it. I'll do the fluid change after the master/slave is on to see what the difference is with each update.

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n389/Rumblin70SS/ZR-1/DB7D19B1-2B02-4C67-9D6D-DE12A9A2BE68_zps8ixjckxn.jpg

Wish me luck! I hope to have it on and bled by Wednesday with the Wife's help.

[Rumbln70SS]

It's been a little while since I have posted as it took me a little longer to get the parts installed due to other priorities.

First impression is its much better, although I think I still have a little air in the system as its it still moves forward slightly when putting it into first.

Next steps are to jack it up from the rear, bleed and change the trans fluid.

All in all happy with the result!