Couldm't get the 94 in gear......

[Roadster]

On the weekends I shift the 94 and the 82 in the garage, so it is easier to get into the 94 and go. We went out on Sunday, and I have noticed the past two times, that the trans is hard to shift when cold, but felt better as the Z warmed-up. So not thinking to much about it (yea right!!!) I go to move the Vettes on Monday to get them in their spots for the week, and I can't get the 94 into gear, any gear......:confused: So I stayed relaxed and finally it went into 2nd gear. Since my garage floor is at a very slight slope, it was enough to move up a few feet and then let it roll back until I got it over on the other side of the garage. :eek: That was close....
So I lift the hood, move the ECM and check the Clutch cylinder and besides what's in there being very dark, the fluid was very low. So I add some fluid and pump the clutch pedal about 15 times, and with the engine off, it now is going into gear easier than before.
Did a search on the forum and learned alot about the system. Need to check for leaks, possibly change out the fluid and see if there is a leak, or just remove and send it out for a rebuild from one of the vendors mentioned in the thread that I was reading. Also doesn't seem hard to remove or install. This may be the next job for the Z......

[ZZZZZR1]

Tom,

I'd make sure the clutch fluid is or was changed... Also change out the transmission fluid too, either one could cause the symptoms.

Do you have a list of maintenance records?

:cheers:

David

[8cam]

Actually the '90 self-bleeds, and when you pump the clutch, it will bleed out the reservoir. In that respect, it's actually one of the easiest clutches I've ever bled. That said, my slave bit the bullet - even after cleaning out the black sludge, it didn't last a day before I saw drips and the pedal flopped to the floor.

I just got a rebuilt unit from Jim @ Power Torque Systems, and I'll be installing it tomorrow. He recommended priming the slave with fluid prior to installation, making bleeding much quicker. As long as I can get past the CAGS, it shouldn't be too tough.

Interesting factoid, Jim told me the 89-90 slaves used a breakaway bleeder valve, intentionally torqued off at the factory - that's what is under that rubber cap. Really Chevy? I swear I'm finding all sorts of things that confirm they never intended these cars to be serviced.

[ZZZZZR1]

While I get the bold/red stuff is your thing, your impressive highlight doesn't say the same thing at all, and comes off very condescending. I don't appreciate it.

Mark,

I don't see that as condescending, he is highlighting a fact isn't he? Is Cliff attacking you? Absolutely not.

I think you are reading it wrong... Cliff even deleted the posts because you were upset about it.

:cheers:

David

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Cliff, what were your exact symptoms when your slave failed? My Challenge car is ailing in that respect, so I'd just like to compare notes.

Those that have been around here a while know that this "style" is just your way of communicating. Not condescending at all....at least not to me because I understand the flavor in which it is meant and conveyed. You are always perceived by myself as helpful.

I also applaud Dynomite for deleting the posts in question. He did so for everyone's benefit. This is a perfect example of how we all strive to respect each other and exchange information.

4Cam...I'm sincerely not criticizing anyone who takes it differently at all, either. Just listing my understanding of the bold red "style'".

Thanks :cheers:

[Kevin]

let's play nice everyone.

[GOLDCYLON]

While I get the bold/red stuff is your thing, your impressive highlight doesn't say the same thing at all, and comes off very condescending. I don't appreciate it.

Mark your missreading this. Cliff is just trying to highlight a solution. Cliff is a very nice and helpful guy

[GOLDCYLON]

Interesting factoid, Jim told me the 89-90 slaves used a breakaway bleeder valve, intentionally torqued off at the factory - that's what is under that rubber cap. Really Chevy? I swear I'm finding all sorts of things that confirm they never intended these cars to be serviced.

hmm I never heard that one but yeah it does not surprise me. Im sure WV would know for sure

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Dave (WV ZR-) is a wealth of knowledge for part numbers and this type of stuff. Always enjoy reading when he contributes these things. Thanks!!!!

:cheers:

[Roadster]

Tom,

I'd make sure the clutch fluid is or was changed... Also change out the transmission fluid too, either one could cause the symptoms.

Do you have a list of maintenance records?

:cheers:

David

Dave, I believe none of the fluids have been changed....so it looks like replacing or get the system rebuilt.............
No records as of yet, got in contack with another previous owner, so we will see where that goes..... Tom

[8cam]

I think you are reading it wrong...

4Cam...I'm sincerely not criticizing anyone who takes it differently at all, either. Just listing my understanding of the bold red "style'".

Mark your missreading this. Cliff is just trying to highlight a solution. Cliff is a very nice and helpful guy

I deleted my post, don't mean to cause problems. And yes I've gotten a lot of help from those red lines already, so big kudos to Cliff.

My only point was that "not set up to bleed" wasn't the whole picture, and I expanded on that from my conversation with Jim. The extra red emphasis that wasn't originally there, without an explanatory link, just didn't come across well.

[ZZZZZR1]

Dave, I believe none of the fluids have been changed....so it looks like replacing or get the system rebuilt.............
No records as of yet, got in contack with another previous owner, so we will see where that goes..... Tom

Hold of on replacing or rebuilding anything yet.

Change the fluids (clutch / brakes / transmission) and see how things go. That might fix the issue.

:cheers:

David

[ZZZZZR1]

I deleted my post, don't mean to cause problems. And yes I've gotten a lot of help from those red lines already, so big kudos to Cliff.

My only point was that "not set up to bleed" wasn't the whole picture, and I expanded on that from my conversation with Jim. The extra red emphasis that wasn't originally there, without an explanatory link, just didn't come across well.

Mark,

I couldn't agree more about Jim Jandik , he is the man!!! Great products / service and discussions with him.


Thanks for editing your post and giving feedback on your brake upgrade experience.

:cheers

David

[Dynomite]

4cam.....I was only mentioning the fact I went through the same thing on my 90' and thought you prolly did not see it so highlighted it in BOLD RED. It is an important issue as you verified that the Stock Clutch Slave Cylinder in a 90' (maybe 91') does not have the bleed valve any longer. And as I found out it is a mess to try to bleed the Slave Cylinder by breaking the lines. You did a nice right up on the background confirming what we both experienced and mentioning the self bleeding characteristic. Thanks :thumbsup:


Oh....will mention again...(this the third time)....I got a New Clutch Master and New Clutch Slave from Jerry which I installed both in around 30 minutes including bleeding (New Clutch Slave has a nice bleed valve). My wife Priscilla pumped the Clutch when I opened the bleed valve each stroke. Clutch releases perfectly now. New Clutch Slave DOES fit around a Stock Exhaust pipe without disconnecting the pipe just in case anyone is wondering.

[Mystic ZR-1]

How did you bleed it,
the bleed port is on the bottom of the new
AC Delco slaves? What genius designed that?
Back filled mine thru the bleed port (bottom to top).

[Dynomite]

How did you bleed it,
the bleed port is on the bottom of the new
AC Delco slaves? What genius designed that?
Back filled mine thru the bleed port (bottom to top).

AC Delco genius ;)

Back filling would definitely work better but gets messy with connections/hose that I did not have handy. Maybe that is why the bleed valve is on the bottom of the Slave Cylinder :D

I did use a few sheets of paper towel under the bleed valve.

Yes...I bled it before installing it on the bell housing. Also tried to tip it up in rear as I bled it to get air out and also when you do that the steel line tips down which makes it more difficult. I recall I also pushed the plunger against bell housing to destroke the Slave Cylinder with bleed valve open. I just tipped rear up and twisted it so bleeder was not all the way on bottom and said to wife "PUSH and HOLD". I then cracked the bleed valve and closed bleed valve. Did that a few times keeping fluid in clutch reservoir. Then it is tight but you can depress the plunger a bit for positioning Clutch Slave on Bell Housing. Make sure you get some lube on plunger end for Clutch Fork...also making sure you have the plunger inserted properly on Clutch Fork.

After Priscilla got good full stroke clutch pedal pressure I called it a day and as 4cam suggests I think it will self bleed any remaining air over a period of time.

[Mystic ZR-1]

You're right, it was a little messy!
But it seems to have worked OK, got a good pedal now.

[nelson007]

Dave how many miles do you reconmend having the fluid changed?
I have 31 k in my car and might change it before going on the mountain run.
Nelson007


Tom,




I'd make sure the clutch fluid is or was changed... Also change out the transmission fluid too, either one could cause the symptoms.

Do you have a list of maintenance records?

:cheers:

David

[ZZZZZR1]

Dave how many miles do you reconmend having the fluid changed?
I have 31 k in my car and might change it before going on the mountain run.
Nelson007

Nelson,

Many say clutch fluid / brake fluid should be changed every 2 years, but I would yield to Marc Haibecks advice.

If you don't know when your fluid was changed, that's not a bad idea.

Look forward to seeing you in BG!!!

:cheers:

David

[8cam]

Dave how many miles do you reconmend having the fluid changed?
I have 31 k in my car and might change it before going on the mountain run.
Nelson007

If it's original (likely) then it's 20+ years old. I think I'd change it. :) The black, nasty sludge I pulled from mine was probably original too, and I'm sure that stuff just accelerated the slave failure.

A quick change is a 10 minute job and you'll get 90% of the fluid flushed, and you don't have to go under the car. Just suck the old fluid from the reservoir with a turkey baster and wipe the stuff out until it's clean. Put in clean DOT4 to the fill line and give it 20-30 pumps - you'll see the air bubbles coming up through the reservoir. Suck the fluid out, refill and repeat. Do this about 4 times and you'll run about a half-bottle through, most of the fluid will be changed. Now if the clutch goes soft again, the slave is the culprit 95% of the time.

A true 100% bleed will require diving under the car and using the bleeder valve, and isn't possible on a 90 with the original slave.

[8cam]

4cam.....I was only mentioning the fact I went through the same thing on my 90' and thought you prolly did not see it so highlighted it in BOLD RED.

That's ok, just different styles. I'm one of those oddballs who reads everything, including all the stuff around the actual posts. It's all good, sorry for reacting negatively.

[LantanaTX]

Interesting and helpful thread. I did the self bleed yesterday and my clutch pedal feels better now. I used a wadded up paper towel to suck the black stuff our of the reservoir and then added new fluid and pumped about 50 times, then repeated the process a few more time until the fluid remained nice and clean.

I now want to change the fluid in the trans. What is the best fluid for the trans? heard some kink of BMW stuff? Also can anyone post a picture of the adaptor tool to remove the fill plug?

[Dynomite]

Interesting and helpful thread. I did the self bleed yesterday and my clutch pedal feels better now. I used a wadded up paper towel to suck the black stuff our of the reservoir and then added new fluid and pumped about 50 times, then repeated the process a few more time until the fluid remained nice and clean.

I now want to change the fluid in the trans. What is the best fluid for the trans? heard some kink of BMW stuff? Also can anyone post a picture of the adaptor tool to remove the fill plug?

4.4 pints - Castrol TWS 10W-60

LT5/ZR-1 Fluids (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp.html#post1580070550)

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite6/2844c361-c225-4c5b-be61-a3129d0d14b0.jpg

D. Be careful on inserting the 17 mm Allen Wrench into the Transmission Drain Plug. That Transmission Drain Plug often has road rash which prevents complete insertion of the 17 mm Allen. If not completely inserted you may strip the Allen part of the Drain Plug.
Snap-On 17mm Allen/3/8 socket (http://store.snapon.com/General-Service-Tools-Socket-VW-Transmission-Drain-Plug-Triumph-Motorcycles-17mm-external-hex-3-8-drive--P635958.aspx)

Dress up the Allen part of the Drain Plug and then tap the 17 mm Allen into the plug using a small hammer for full insertion before applying a torque on the 17 mm Allen Wrench to remove the Drain Plug. I use a box wrench that fits over the long end of the 17 mm Allen Wrench for additional leverage making sure you keep the 17 mm Allen Wrench fully inserted in the Drain Plug you are removing.

17 mm Allen Wrench
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/ZR1%20Maintenance/de90da95-206a-4b2d-95cc-cbaba81cf6d1.jpg

[LantanaTX]

Thanks for the info. I am having the same symptoms as the OP. When the car is cold and first driving away from my garage, I have to shift slowly and carefully to avoid grinding 2nd gear. The clutch also doesn't engage smoothly. After the clutch and trans warms up, everything is fine. I flushed the clutch and it feel much better. Now I am going to change the trans fluid. I know the Castrol is popular but I did see a post where someone said they got better syncromeshing with AMSOil. Since my issue only shows up cold, should I consider the thinner AMSOil? Or something else?

[Racinfan83]

Lantana - here is a link to my DIY on changing tranny fluid. Was like a new one after I did it...http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20819

[LantanaTX]

Lantana - here is a link to my DIY on changing tranny fluid. Was like a new one after I did it...http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20819


Thank you. I had already found your thread and it was a very good step by step. Just wondering about fluid since someone mentioned they had better syncro operation with AMSoil than Castrol.

[WVZR-1]

I mentioned to a "local fellow" here to make sure he could remove the "fill plug" before the draining and because his drain was all "road-rashed" he felt it necessary to deal with that first. That wasn't a problem for him but the "fill plug" certainly was.

If you need a drain/fill plug the VW part number in this post should be available "locally"

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showpost.php?p=179949&postcount=1

When the fluid is fresh I don't believe there's issues with either and it's likely improved similarly. I believe the "frequency" of the service is maybe more critical than the product.

A box wrench and the hex I believe works better than just the attempt with the bulk of the M17 hex key. You can lay the box wrench right tight to the plug and certainly gain leverage. You can use both hands also in this case, one to maintain the position of the hex and the other for the box wrench. I don't believe there's anything easier.

[8cam]

Finished installing my new slave cylinder this afternoon and it's made a big difference in shifting. The first test drive showed shifting that was much smoother, and the clutch feels more solid than it ever has. Definitely worth the couple hours' work.

[Roadster]

An acquaintance needed a drain plug for his ZF and he's in somewhat of a remote location but his son ordered the part # I suggested from a metropolitan Buffalo NY VW dealer for him. I received the snapshot of what he received tonight. Here's an image of the plug and the part # pick ticket from the VW dealer. A dealer may attempt to substitute this part number but insist on this # and you should receive the 17mm hex. The substitute would be a later "spline" drive instead of the hex. The VW part # is WHT-001-937 that I had posted several weeks/months ago. There is still 17mm hex stock.

http://www.zr1.net/forum/picture.php?pictureid=2313&albumid=233&dl=1376276752&thumb=1

http://www.zr1.net/forum/picture.php?pictureid=2314&albumid=233&dl=1376276752&thumb=1

There's full size images in my album. Don't know why the "thumbnail" doesn't open larger. Oh well the number is the important information if an OE style fill/drain is needed. Full retail I believe was less than $10.

Thanks to WVZR-1 I just ordered two of the said part this AM from my local VW dealer. They will in on Tues and cost is $5 a piece....:thumbsup:

Thanks to Dynomite for the info on fluids. Picked up the Mobil 1 gear lube 75W-90, looked for DOT 4, no luck with regular DOT 4, no luck with the Castrol Tranny fluid. I'll have to look on ebay or other part stores for those items. Already changed out the engine oil and filter.
And ordered the Snap-On 17mm Allen/3/8 socket....so I will be ready to roll...

And thanks for all of the replies to date, very helpful info.....

Tomorrow, will use DOT 3 to replace the clutch fluid, unless I find DOT 4 before then. This is just so much fun,( I really mean it, enjoy doing things myself when I have the knownledge and time to do it) and my wipers stopped working on the 82, now if only I had more time....mmmmmmmm

[dredgeguy]

Get the Castrol TWS 10-60 Tranny fluid from your local BMW dealer. Just picked up 3 quarts today, about $48 with tax.

[Mystic ZR-1]

Believe it or not, the BMW stealership is the least
expensive place to get Castol TWS 10/60!

[Racinfan83]

Yes it is ^^^^^ Even cheaper then I could find it online... Go Figure..

[nelson007]

Hello Mark,
I will being changing the oil in my car tomorrow the way you did. After sucking out the fluid from the reservoir should i put the cap back on after each time i pump it out? You said you changed with Dot 4, my cap has Dot 3, its a 95.
Thanks,
Nelson
QUOTE=4cam;202378]If it's original (likely) then it's 20+ years old. I think I'd change it. :) The black, nasty sludge I pulled from mine was probably original too, and I'm sure that stuff just accelerated the slave failure.

A quick change is a 10 minute job and you'll get 90% of the fluid flushed, and you don't have to go under the car. Just suck the old fluid from the reservoir with a turkey baster and wipe the stuff out until it's clean. Put in clean DOT4 to the fill line and give it 20-30 pumps - you'll see the air bubbles coming up through the reservoir. Suck the fluid out, refill and repeat. Do this about 4 times and you'll run about a half-bottle through, most of the fluid will be changed. Now if the clutch goes soft again, the slave is the culprit 95% of the time.

A true 100% bleed will require diving under the car and using the bleeder valve, and isn't possible on a 90 with the original slave.[/QUOTE]

[nelson007]

Charlie can you pick me up 3 quarts so i can replace Jim's stock.
Thanks,
Nelson
By the way you might have to get a trailer hitch on you car for your next trophy,the one you have now completely filled the back of your car.

Get the Castrol TWS 10-60 Tranny fluid from your local BMW dealer. Just picked up 3 quarts today, about $48 with tax.

[8cam]

Hello Mark,
I will being changing the oil in my car tomorrow the way you did. After sucking out the fluid from the reservoir should i put the cap back on after each time i pump it out? You said you changed with Dot 4, my cap has Dot 3, its a 95.
Thanks,
Nelson
If it's original (likely) then it's 20+ years old. I think I'd change it. :) The black, nasty sludge I pulled from mine was probably original too, and I'm sure that stuff just accelerated the slave failure.

A quick change is a 10 minute job and you'll get 90% of the fluid flushed, and you don't have to go under the car. Just suck the old fluid from the reservoir with a turkey baster and wipe the stuff out until it's clean. Put in clean DOT4 to the fill line and give it 20-30 pumps - you'll see the air bubbles coming up through the reservoir. Suck the fluid out, refill and repeat. Do this about 4 times and you'll run about a half-bottle through, most of the fluid will be changed. Now if the clutch goes soft again, the slave is the culprit 95% of the time.

A true 100% bleed will require diving under the car and using the bleeder valve, and isn't possible on a 90 with the original slave.

I hope you mean changing the clutch fluid. Don't put the Castrol in the clutch system! :)

I use DOT4 because I use the same stuff in the brakes, and it has a slightly higher temp range than DOT3. For the clutch, it doesn't make much difference, just don't use DOT5. I sucked the fluid out, refilled the reservoir and pumped away, did not put the cap back on. You want those air bubbles coming out so leave the cap off and pump it until the bubbles are gone.

[Roadster]

Get the Castrol TWS 10-60 Tranny fluid from your local BMW dealer. Just picked up 3 quarts today, about $48 with tax.

not a bad price from what I have seen.......

Believe it or not, the BMW stealership is the least
expensive place to get Castol TWS 10/60!

Yes it is ^^^^^ Even cheaper then I could find it online... Go Figure..

Have to disagree with both of you on this one, as you can see below, found mine on ebay, and even with the shipping, it is comparable to the BMW dealerships.....

Castrol TWS EDGE Professional 10W-60 Synthetic - 1 Liter bottle - BMW E46 M3

Paid on May-03-14 $13.95 $8.95 3qts $41.85
Standard Shipping
Estimated delivery: Thu. May. 8

Subtotal $41.85
Shipping and handling $8.95
Shipping Discount from seller bavarian-autosport $11.90
Total $50.80


Question....what is the purpose of the "Black cup" inside of the clutch reservoir? It doesn't seem to collaspe like the diaphragms on the older master brake cylinders when fluid was getting lower in the cylinder and they expanded, then when you added fluid, you collasped the diaphram?

[Racinfan83]

Mine was $14.50/qt x3 = $43.50 + $3.48tax = $46.98. Stopped by on way home from work. No waiting for shipping and I got to see some sweet Beemers in the showroom when I walked by... :wink::p

[Roadster]

Mine was $14.50/qt x3 = $43.50 + $3.48tax = $46.98. Stopped by on way home from work. No waiting for shipping and I got to see some sweet Beemers in the showroom when I walked by... :wink::p

good price....but still not bad on my end, for another $3 comes right to the door. I would probably use $3 worth of gas driving to my local BMW dealer.:D
And yes, some of those BMW's are sweet looking indeed.....:)

[nelson007]

Thanks Mark,
Just finished all ok.
Nelson007




=4cam;202489]I hope you mean changing the clutch fluid. Don't put the Castrol in the clutch system! :)

I use DOT4 because I use the same stuff in the brakes, and it has a slightly higher temp range than DOT3. For the clutch, it doesn't make much difference, just don't use DOT5. I sucked the fluid out, refilled the reservoir and pumped away, did not put the cap back on. You want those air bubbles coming out so leave the cap off and pump it until the bubbles are gone.[/QUOTE]

[Roadster]

today's update!!!!

flushed out most of the clutch fluid with DOT 3, although I did find a regular container of Castrol LMA DOT 4 (not syn, I think), but did not use. Did the process as Mark (4cam) and others have suggested. Did the process 5x, pumping 25x each time. Looks real clear for now. As far as the shifhting goes....went out for a ride and noticed a big difference. No more "rough" shifting when cold, especially 3rd gear, feels as smooth as possibly can....:thumbsup:
Took it up above 5k in 1st gear and almost the same in second, limited to where I was at, and this machine is something else, just alot of fun to drive.
Next up brake fluid change, tranny, rear & coolant. I'll get there, just one-by-one.:D

[ZZZZZR1]

Mark,

So the transmission works fine now?

It shifts ok?

Take it up to 6k and ensure secondary's are working good :salute:

:cheers:

[8cam]

Mark,

So the transmission works fine now?

It shifts ok?

Take it up to 6k and ensure secondary's are working good :salute:

:cheers:

6k? You're not even trying. Take it to seven grand and get back with us. :D


And yes mine is outstanding to 7k+!

[Racinfan83]

Yeah I get 7k at least a couple times every time I drive it...:D
On-ramps are great..LOL

[Roadster]

Yeah I get 7k at least a couple times every time I drive it...:D
On-ramps are great..LOL

Still haven't been on the open road or an area where I can hit 7K, but running real good in all gears so far, no hestitations or stumbles to speak about, just gets up and goes....again feels real strong like it can go forever........Tom

[Roadster]

Again, thanking everyone for their imput on fluid choices, etc.
Ordered the VW plug parts on Friday, picked them up yesterday, $4.38 a piece, ordered 2. Today had delivery of the Tranny Fluid, and the Snap-On sokcet for the drain & fill plugs on the trans....I am good to go.....(whenever I get time):-D

the parts, and the Snap-On tool is a great fit.......
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p138/SSROADSTER/94%20ZR-1/IMG_4506.jpg (http://s127.photobucket.com/user/SSROADSTER/media/94%20ZR-1/IMG_4506.jpg.html)
http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p138/SSROADSTER/94%20ZR-1/IMG_4508.jpg (http://s127.photobucket.com/user/SSROADSTER/media/94%20ZR-1/IMG_4508.jpg.html)

It pays to ask questions, as you get all of the inside tips that go with the answers.........:cheers: