wheel refinishing?

[-=Jeff=-]

SO I need to get the front to wheel centers refinished. my plan is to get all 4 done, however, do I paint or Powder coat?

I know what a shop will charge per wheel for paint, not sure about powder coating.. there is also the DIY option as well

My main question is can Powder coat produce the same smooth glass like finish that paint can?


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-tXgYTXw-xTE/UmvmLWk_2FI/AAAAAAAAEeo/BTzwHgR5x1w/w1142-h643-no/IMG_20131026_100917092.jpg

[GOLDCYLON]

Polished???? Just an option.... and yes Powercoat can acheive the same finish. its ALL in the prep work....

[-=Jeff=-]

Polished???? Just an option.... and yes Powercoat can acheive the same finish. its ALL in the prep work....

Yeah thought of that.. but man keep it clean around all those bolts if polished...

I really like the color of the wheels now, I just need to fix the front 2 so I thought redo them all

I have also thought as looking at the Hyper silver Duplicolor kit as well

[GOLDCYLON]

Yeah thought of that.. but man keep it clean around all those bolts if polished...

I really like the color of the wheels now, I just need to fix the front 2 so I thought redo them all

I have also thought as looking at the Hyper silver Duplicolor kit as well

I hear you only way to keep em cleam after the high polish is back to clearcoat.

[-=Jeff=-]

yeah.. I think if I can keep the centers silver like they are it shows off the pieces instead of looking like a one piece wheel

[alnukem]

A couple of months ago I was reading about a aluminum sealant that was used by NASA at one time, it was suppose to be the cat's ***. It was like a $100 a can?????

[GOLDCYLON]

yeah.. I think if I can keep the centers silver like they are it shows off the pieces instead of looking like a one piece wheel

Only your barber will know.... actually 90% of the population have no idea what a 3 piece racing wheel is. We do. I think these would look great higly polished and sealed.

[GOLDCYLON]

A couple of months ago I was reading about a aluminum sealant that was used by NASA at one time, it was suppose to be the cat's ***. It was like a $100 a can?????


Prob some silicone lubricant product.

[BigJohn]

Zoops seal!!!

:neutral:

[USAFPILOT]

jeff where did you get those center caps? do they just plug in?

[-=Jeff=-]

jeff where did you get those center caps? do they just plug in?

No they don't although that was my original hope.. it is an easy mod to do..

The Center caps are OEM GM HHR/Cobalt 2.25" Center caps

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MONTE-CARLO-HHR-CRUZ-COBALT-TRAVERSE-EQUINOX-IMPALA-2-25-CENTER-CAPS-/181245407507?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a33117113&vxp=mtr

I removed the tang on the back side of the OEM caps as the clip diameter is too small..

I then removed the mounting ring from the Shelby cap (just taped). I then used 3M Acrylic body molding tape and put the Shelby mounting ring on the OEM cap and got what you see there in the pic.

Shelby Cap
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-b_GkQE27uW4/Um_Wp574ckI/AAAAAAAAEhU/-8_jVkHhesI/w899-h507-no/IMG_20130415_203934_242.jpg

Compared
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/t9-K-59i9Wi2Bc-FN7OoNn8IfsOdGj5Gqa_XgqqJ-5k=w899-h507-no

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fKegRRwIzr0/Um_Wq6_yGPI/AAAAAAAAEhY/k2okcF83q2g/w444-h788-no/IMG_20130415_202518_839.jpg

[8cam]

I had a set of Fikse FM10s on another car, polished and clearcoated. The most beautiful automotive jewelry I've ever had, looked absolutely amazing. And the biggest pain to clean, ever. I'll never do that again, sticking to simple easy to clean wheels. But if I were you I'd paint and clear them, and give them a good coat of wax. That will make them easier to clean despite all those bolts.

[WVZR-1]

I'm all for the paint VS powder-coat for a couple of reasons, todays product can match the durability of the powder-coat and the finish can be "controlled". generally speaking a powder-coat finish is a what you get is what you got. It's very difficult to control the product.

Primed, colored and cleared with the proper product and cure you will I'd think have a much more pleasant experience. Buy yourself some 2 1/4" center cap blanks and color them when you're doing the centers. I have center caps with the ZR-1 in the "correct font type" in my A-mold caps colored in black. It's doable but with a 2 1/4" center cap it would require a rather diminutive size I believe.

[Z51JEFF]

A PC finish can be wet sanded and polished,one of the NOS 91 wheels I got a few years ago didnt shine like the other 3 so I hit it with some polish and the shine came out.The only benefit of a powder coated wheel is drop it off,call me when its done.If it were me Id get a nice color mixed up and shoot the centers myself but not sure if you are in a position to do any painting.Ive got a set of brushed wheels Im going to have clear coated in PC only because I dont have a place to shoot them myself.

[-=Jeff=-]

this is the finish I am after...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-HZNCxYop-iw/UnOTh1WSzYI/AAAAAAAAEiQ/xyk9TdmjXSE/w292-h519-no/IMG_20131031_220518048.jpg

I was curious if the Duplicolor Hyper silver would be close but there is no metallic in it even though it states:
Dupli-Color® Hyper Silver Coating is a two-can system that creates a deep silver metallic finish over all types of wheel finishes.

Here is it on the left (with out the 'Hyper Clear')
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iUHyPqLeUeU/UnOTacEkfiI/AAAAAAAAEiI/PSnmqPiCJcA/w292-h519-no/IMG_20131031_220524266.jpg

[LGAFF]

Looks like Silver Sparkle PC

[-=Jeff=-]

Your guy do that color?

[WVZR-1]

Looks like Silver Sparkle PC

Just as easily could be a more conventional painted finish!

Regardless of the decision the "PRODUCT" is the determining factor for durability, the "APPLICATOR" is the determining factor of the quality of the finish! It's generally accepted that a quality painter (applicator) with the correct environment can produce a finished product of better visual appearance, the product of choice determines durability. Higher metallic finishes seem to all have certainly more "eye appeal" than a PC piece. The preparation, the prime, and the cure results in similar durability to powder coated finishes.

Powder coat is not all the same. There's different product of various performance levels just as there is for conventional refinishing. There's urethane, epoxy and other product just as in refinishing products. I believe that most high-silver powder coats require also a clear application. It's not as simple as:

Your guy do that color?

[-=Jeff=-]

yes I understand that..

I am not sure what I will do..

I have contacted a wheel re-finisher.. $110 per wheel, I give them the center sections of the wheels

I called a body shop, his rough quote was $650 total (again I supply the center only)

what I want is it to MATCH what I have in both Color/metallic as well as smooth shine..

I am leaning towards painting them or having the Wheel re-finisher do them. If I knew I could get a dead on 100% match I would just get the front 2 redone, as those are the ones that need it

[WVZR-1]

yes I understand that..

I am not sure what I will do..

I have contacted a wheel re-finisher.. $110 per wheel, I give them the center sections of the wheels

I called a body shop, his rough quote was $650 total (again I supply the center only)

what I want is it to MATCH what I have in both Color/metallic as well as smooth shine..

I am leaning towards painting them or having the Wheel re-finisher do them. If I knew I could get a dead on 100% match I would just get the front 2 redone, as those are the ones that need it

Is the wheel re-finisher a "local"? If it's a local then they should have likely some "test-panels" that you could check for the match. They should be able to also tell you what wheels they do on a regular basis so that you could check that wheel for your thoughts. What product does the wheel re-finisher use? Do they also do powder coat for some? If you can get the product type and brand from the re-finisher it might help making a decision.

An exact/dead-on match isn't near as critical for wheel centers as it is for adjacent panels, the offset of the center, the reflection of the polished rim section all distort the final appearance and then there's the "sunshine" or the "overcast"!

If the re-finisher is local carry a wheel to him and have a conversation "toe - toe". The re-finisher I'd generally say would be the better choice. Their equipment is meant for the particular refinishing that they do. In a shop environment you've got a large booth that needs to also be productive, it's difficult to do the prime and cure, the color/clear and cure in a shop that also needs to be productive.

[-=Jeff=-]

yes local:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Chicago-Wheel-Service/122385677925120
Chicago Wheel Service,

one of the Body shops I called referred me to them

[LGAFF]

PC does not require a clear coat; in fact that is typically what makes it look horrible in the long run

[WVZR-1]

PC does not require a clear coat; in fact that is typically what makes it look horrible in the long run

That I don't believe applies to ALL - it's the incorrect use of "product" that generally results in what you want to call "horrible"! Product is important!

I chose my words carefully I thought when I mentioned "most" high-silver powder coat products require a clear coat and I do believe that's correct. Do they all? Likely NOT but I'm not that familiar with them all.

If the attempt is to match the two rears the product choices I believe change dramatically. Powder coat if that's what the rears are would require the same product for a "close match" I'd think, conventional refinishing I believe stands a better chance.

The wheel refinisher I believe is the better choice to do just the two fronts. They should do several different silvers for all of the different brands and he might just look at a wheel and "rattle off the code"! They would be my first choice and I'd make it a visit.

I believe I've done maybe six sets of wheels, two of those sets were done by a wheel refinisher that was dedicated to collision wheel repair. Their plant was very close to me and both were pleasant experiences. That plant is still in operation but it's been sold to another vendor.

I bought a set of '90 ZR-1 wheels in Wisconsin from a bicycle builder and the wheels were serial numbered by the builder because the vendor offered to pick them up, process them and forward them to me. His bicycles are serial numbered so it was not an issue for him to accomplish. I knew that I received my wheels when they arrived and not collision exchanges. They're in boxes.

Ye Ole Wheel shop has done three sets for me - first class - I've got a set now that I need to carry to him.

[LGAFF]

When you see PC yellow, it is the clear that does it.......Clear PC often does not hold up well to UV and its a gamble unless you really know the product.

[LGAFF]

Jeff refinish them yourself, those #s are crazy to refinish center sections.....

[-=Jeff=-]

Yeah just need to find the right paint,

[WVZR-1]

Jeff refinish them yourself, those #s are crazy to refinish center sections.....


$110 per and they supply product and assure your satisfaction is NOT crazy. Done by a wheel re-finishing jobber in their production shop is the best way to accomplish a satisfactory finish to start with. Once they actually see the centers the price could likely change, maybe down or maybe up. Down if maybe the preparation doesn't look as tedious as prepping an entire wheel. Up maybe if the fastener bores require maybe some special attention. If they look at a wheel and can assure you satisfaction it's way cheap. You drop them off and pick them up! Done!

[-=Jeff=-]

Yeah I am also leaning towards getting them done, I would really like them to look really good and professional, first I need to get the off the car....

I will take a nice one and a bad one in for an idea of cost,then I will take them apart.

[LGAFF]

I would counter a $400+ cost at a shop, labor rate is $42-46 per hour and paint and material rate $16-22....that is a lot of labor for centers only.

Or as others suggest, hand them a blank check and never question.

[LGAFF]

$15 refinish job, including fixing curbing...which was bad

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/IMG_87161.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/user/lgaff/media/IMG_87161.jpg.html)

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/054.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/user/lgaff/media/054.jpg.html)

[LGAFF]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/052.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/user/lgaff/media/052.jpg.html)

[WVZR-1]

I would counter a $400+ cost at a shop, labor rate is $42-46 per hour and paint and material rate $16-22....that is a lot of labor for centers only.



Irrelevant comment! Material rate for "collision" related repairs has absolutely nothing to do with this operation and neither does the "collision" labor rate! I believe you know that also.

Your $15 exhibition? It apparently satisfied you but how long will it last? You don't know. Did it increase the value of the wheel set? Questionable. Not to someone that was interested in something other than what it actually is. The set is likely early 9 1/2's and 11's so your counter that they're extremely valuable is determined by the 11's NOT your refinish job.

[LGAFF]

You have your opinion, I have mine.....

[WVZR-1]

Here's a good read regarding wheel refinishing aluminum or aluminum/magnesium alloy wheels and this is how mine were done at Ye Ole Wheel Shop, from prime to color and clear was two days for cure and then the color and clear. Notice here the mount of the tires:

http://stevekouracos.wordpress.com/restoration/tips-and-tricks/aluminum-magnesium-wheel-restoration/

[Z51JEFF]

Jeff refinish them yourself, those #s are crazy to refinish center sections.....

I thought so.The shop Im looking at for my wheels quoted me a price of $150 to PC 4 brushed aluminum wheels in clear.This shop is top notch and I questioned the low price and was told if the wheels are completely prepped,thats the price for a set of wheels.Im working on these this weekend and hope to drop them off Monday.As far as the set the O.P has,Id bead blast the centers,all 4 done in PC and be done with it.I cant see having just the centers costing $400+ though.As far as clear PC over a color PC,just look at a stock OEM wheel,thats clear PC over the entire wheel,paint and bare surface.Jeff,if you were closer Id paint these for you,its no big deal.If the centers are in nice shape Id take a bead blasted center,shoot a light coat of etch prime,bury the center in primer,scuff that shoot color then bury that in clear.:-D

[LGAFF]

My PC guy said $200 tops for all 4...which is honestly what he charged me for my wheels, barrels and all...

I think that as talented as -=Jeff=- is he could easily do this himself with the same quality results.

[-=Jeff=-]

Hmmm, but PC might last longer..

Where he located? He open on Saturdays?

[Z51JEFF]

Hmmm, but PC might last longer..

Where he located? He open on Saturdays?

Paint will last just as long,PC isnt bullet proof.Ive seen some OEM wheels where the prolong exposure to break dust and moisture will cause PC to start to peel.

[LGAFF]

He is pretty busy right now, doing 460 Camera Stands and then a project for Starbucks, he is open on Saturday and Generally working Sunday. My only concern is that you do need to sandblast it.....need to see if any cleaning up needs to be done after to ensure a smooth surface.

[-=Jeff=-]

So I am in no rush, I think I will go to the parts store again and find some paint that is close to what I want and try it out,

The hyper silver duplicolor stuff is wrong.

Once I test it on aluminum I can determine if I am going to do it myself

[WVZR-1]

If you're doing these yourself certainly look into "adhesion promoters" for aluminum. Every solvent based vendor has their own so there should be many choices but it's worth the effort! What ever your attempts in a "rattle can" are going to require some sort of a base I believe to get anywhere near a match.

[-=Jeff=-]

Absolutely, I could also get stuff mixed to match, but I feel if I am going that far.... Then get it all done.. We will see when I get the wheels of the car what I end up doing

[Z51JEFF]

Well,I was wrong on my $150 a set qoute,its per wheel,HELL NO!These wheels are brushed,cleaned and ready to go and they want $600+ for the set.This weekend Ill be shooting the clear myself.

[-=Jeff=-]

going back tot eh parts store tonight to see if I can find a close match to my wheel to test.

if I can, I will start with the sad one first

[-=Jeff=-]

Well, no luck so far..

Next thought is silver sparkle paint kit from Eastwood or get some mixed at the paint supply house

[WVZR-1]

Well, no luck so far..

Next thought is silver sparkle paint kit from Eastwood or get some mixed at the paint supply house

You mentioned the "refinisher" was local. If that's so and they're very close that would be the next visit I would think to see if they can satisfy the "color request" from their "everyday" selection of color choices. You might find out in the same visit what product type and brand they use.

Both of your mentioned choices cost money. The visit costs some time and you should leave somewhat more informed!

[-=Jeff=-]

yeah,

I need to get the wheels off first.. hardest part is finding good jack stand points while it is on the kwik lift.. front is easy, back is a PITA

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Just take the wheel to an Auto Paint store, like a Dupont or PPG store. They can color match it for you. They can also use a fine poly instead of a coarse poly. The coarse poly makes it sparkle more than the original silver.

[WVZR-1]

Just take the wheel to an Auto Paint store, like a Dupont or PPG store. They can color match it for you. They can also use a fine poly instead of a coarse poly. The coarse poly makes it sparkle more than the original silver.

I suggested the "visit" to the refinisher for the "experience and answers". I agree with you in the paint store visit also because when the product and required materials are put on paper it's certainly valuable information to have when making a "decision"! Those answers could be a game changer.

[-=Jeff=-]

I suggested the "visit" to the refinisher for the "experience and answers". I agree with you in the paint store visit also because when the product and required materials are put on paper it's certainly valuable information to have when making a "decision"! Those answers could be a game changer.

Yes thanks for both the ideas.. worth it to visit.. the paint supply place might be a bit easier to get to for (due to work schedules) but both are planned..

Here are my initial thoughts..

Assume both the paint store and refinisher can match.. here are the options I am considering

1) just buy paint and do the 2 in need for refinishing

2) have the refinisher do the 2 in need of refinishing

3) get all 4 done and not worry about it

I have time.. no rush, thanks for all the help so far

[WVZR-1]

If these wheels are going to be "with you" for a while doing the "four" creates a "known" - doing two regardless of process certainly leaves the possibility of "disappointment". Doing the "four" also creates the known for a future need if there should become a need for a single or touch up of sorts.

Borrow a set of something in the vicinity to store the car on, do the four in what ever process you determine to be economical and can produce your desired results. There's no second thought of if you made the right choice or not.

Are your intentions to use the hardware over?

[BigJohn]

They are Aluminum, right???

:neutral:

[-=Jeff=-]

If these wheels are going to be "with you" for a while doing the "four" creates a "known" - doing two regardless of process certainly leaves the possibility of "disappointment". Doing the "four" also creates the known for a future need if there should become a need for a single or touch up of sorts.

Borrow a set of something in the vicinity to store the car on, do the four in what ever process you determine to be economical and can produce your desired results. There's no second thought of if you made the right choice or not.

Are your intentions to use the hardware over?

Yes was hoping to.. why do I have to replace that too? of so I will not do anything for a while then.. From what I gather the 40ish bolts per wheel are titanium and not cheap

They are Aluminum, right???

:neutral:
Yes aluminum wheels

[WVZR-1]

Yes was hoping to.. why do I have to replace that too? of so I will not do anything for a while then.. From what I gather the 40ish bolts per wheel are titanium and not cheap


I was more curious about your plans, I would doubt the titanium hardware because of the initial expense when constructed. Titanium is usually an option that costs sometimes considerably more. It's then debated whether you replace nuts or bolts or both. I don't know the original build specs but the argument bolts or nuts get more involved. Are the nuts "ny-loc" or just "prevailing torque" or neither and just maybe lock-tited? Titanium unless an alloy with a high iron content I don't believe is considered highly magnetic. Yours?

[-=Jeff=-]

So I don't know what the material is, i can take a magnet to it and see.. Last time I had them apart I used Blue Lock Tite and torqued to 18-20 ft lbs

I was planning on doing the same, if I can find out what material the bolts are I have one wheel with different style bolts, it would be nice to have all 4 the same..

Would if someone at speedline would know

[WVZR-1]

So I don't know what the material is, i can take a magnet to it and see.. Last time I had them apart I used Blue Lock Tite and torqued to 18-20 ft lbs

I was planning on doing the same, if I can find out what material the bolts are I have one wheel with different style bolts, it would be nice to have all 4 the same..

Would if someone at speedline would know

12 point hardware shouldn't be that difficult to match and I'm guessing that's what they should be. ARP does some as well. I would think if you removed one and spec'd that one it would/should be an easy find. Maybe not but I don't see why not! 18 - 20 ft lb seems maybe light but then again I've read 28 - 30 so? I wouldn't think you need to be concerned with "stretch" at something 30 ft lb or less so Loctite I'd guess should do. What thread are they? I'd like to think metric or if not an SAE fine pitch rather than USS.

You could "chuck-up" the bolts I'd think in a rotary tool and polish with steel wool. 40 times per = awhile!

[-=Jeff=-]

Yeah I am going by memory, it might have been 25

I do agree I should be able to find one fo the 2 styles to match.. my luck is I will find the match where I will need 120 .. LOL

[-=Jeff=-]

Okay,

Went to the wheel refinisher today. He has a color/metallic that will be close to what I have. I bring him 4 centers.. $300 Out the door ($75 each)

now I need to break them down and drop them off..

Sounded like less then a week to do.. (essentially a couple days)

[LGAFF]

That's more like it "$300"

[-=Jeff=-]

right, before I was getting a verbal without seeing it quote..

Now I have it written down from them on a card.. It is convenient to get them there and pick them up.. Need to disassemble them now

[WVZR-1]

right, before I was getting a verbal without seeing it quote..

Now I have it written down from them on a card.. It is convenient to get them there and pick them up.. Need to disassemble them now

I'd say you've done well - they will be done in a "controlled" environment by someone that should have the preparation process pretty much under control. Should be easy to duplicate if the need arises. I mentioned some time ago might be less could be more, the visit did you well. Many things control the price in a production environment, the work could be slow and most times work is work. Keeps production people busy. You didn't have any "collision" damage that needed addressed which normally an "off the street" wheel needs.

If you're happy with their work and establish a relationship they might be able to accommodate with maybe rotor refinishing etc.

[-=Jeff=-]

Wheels apart, getting dropped off tomorrow

[WVZR-1]

Have you gathered all of your fasteners yet for reassembly?

I believe you've made the best choice and I'd like to think all "goes well"!!!

[-=Jeff=-]

I was planning on reusing what I have. From stuff I have read online it seems to be mixed results.

[WVZR-1]

I was planning on reusing what I have. From stuff I have read online it seems to be mixed results.

I thought you had one wheel that was a "no match"!

[-=Jeff=-]

Correct, I have not find anything yet.. Stuff on eBay is $60 per wheel

[-=Jeff=-]

dropped them off.. asked to verify finish and it is powder coat, not paint, but by the looks of several wheels I couldn't tell..

Nice part is these will now have a lifetime warranty from defects etc. I shouls have them by Friday

[-=Jeff=-]

Almost done:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ehYfrAfqzLU/Uo5TlTvjeAI/AAAAAAAAEmU/Ca24896crq4/w814-h458-no/IMG_20131121_120759110.jpg

compared to:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-tXgYTXw-xTE/UmvmLWk_2FI/AAAAAAAAEeo/BTzwHgR5x1w/w1142-h643-no/IMG_20131026_100917092.jpg

[nelson007]

I saw a newer zr1 with black wheels and a red stripe.Is that factory or did some just paint the stripe?
Thanks,
Nelson 007

[BigJohn]

Looks Good!!!

[BigJohn]

I saw a newer zr1 with black wheels and a red stripe.Is that factory or did some just paint the stripe?
Thanks,
Nelson 007

That would be 2012 ZR1 Centennial Edition!

:cheers:

[-=Jeff=-]

So I got my wheel back today.. Well worth having them done..

They are Powdercoated in color and then Powder Clear

Lifetime warranty from defects etc..

Asked the guy I worked with and the color is a close enough match you will not be able to tell.. I will get some pictures once I get them out of the box and bolted back tot he barrels.

Now for a hood....... and get the rockers done

[-=Jeff=-]

Before:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-AaX6rJWTXCE/Uo_oVOozfqI/AAAAAAAAEoQ/0v453i6lCNM/w1085-h611-no/IMG_20131026_100917092.jpg

close up of original color
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dnDVHn1FD44/Uo_pIIfOKNI/AAAAAAAAEok/rRxBMDH_OmI/w402-h714-no/IMG_20131101_200208695.jpg

After:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kscGqT7dDpM/Uo_msCqmhqI/AAAAAAAAEoY/urczT75SeI0/w1085-h611-no/IMG_20131122_161653154.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-CZBoGKusDbc/Uo_oSW8S80I/AAAAAAAAEoE/j_cUuzONj94/w1085-h611-no/IMG_20131122_162302361.jpg

[-=Jeff=-]

Now to decide what to do about bolts..

I have 40 of the one on the left, 120 of the one on the right

any thoughts?
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HSpe9adROso/UpthMJZGQQI/AAAAAAAAEp0/YRzA9kQ5f6E/w402-h714-no/IMG_20131201_101106858_HDR.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7objDBsMeUQ/UpthT438tJI/AAAAAAAAEp8/dkwIygghiuM/w402-h714-no/IMG_20131201_101113060_HDR.jpg

[WVZR-1]

Now to decide what to do about bolts..

I have 40 of the one on the left, 120 of the one on the right

any thoughts?


I would think there's a couple reasons why I might choose to do 40 to match the 120. 1. you need fewer 2. it's certainly the type most frequently seen with the larger diameter flange with most multi-piece wheels.

I would think it important to match the shoulder of the bolt also to the 120 also. I'd think the shoulder length is maybe just a couple mm short of the total depth of the bore for the multi-piece when assembled. You didn't mention size or a post a profile so what I mention could be speculation but I wouldn't think. The one on the right looks like it might carry a "trademark". Yes/No?

I would think it not a problem. The catch could be is that I believe some of the multi-piece are done with 7mm hardware. Yours are?

Wheel centers certainly do look good. They did you well.

[-=Jeff=-]

I will get length and info later.. they are 8mm head not sure if actual thread size

[Z06scentair]

They look awesome!

[USAZR1]

Those turned out really nice,Jeff. :thumbsup:

[-=Jeff=-]

bolt on Right says "R O" and "TITAN"

both are M6 as far as I can tell, one is about 28-29mm the other 32mm
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dvLt5OhNGR8/UpwK947V_tI/AAAAAAAAEqU/4sN046FoiPw/w1206-h679-no/IMG_20131201_221359341.jpg

Found some chrome plated ones on eBay for $60 per wheel r $220 for all 4. I doubt I can get these parts from Speedline, not sure where else to look

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Jeff, have you considered a stainless fastener? I so often see chrome hardware rusting just from tightening the fastener to the wheel.

Just a thought.....

[-=Jeff=-]

Yes, that would be preferred

[WVZR-1]

bolt on Right says "R O" and "TITAN"

both are M6 as far as I can tell, one is about 28-29mm the other 32mm

Found some chrome plated ones on eBay for $60 per wheel r $220 for all 4. I doubt I can get these parts from Speedline, not sure where else to look

They appear to have different shoulder dimensions but of course that could be maybe a "visual" thing from the snapshot. You need to confirm which is correct - I assumed the 120 count because they were the majority but maybe that's wrong. What was the hex size of the nuts? M6 I believe would be M10 and M7 would be M11. I don't know that you could rely on those but I believe anything else would be a specialty dimension. The heads of the bolts appear to be different also, 6pt vs. 12pt, yes/no? Were the nuts also 12pt? You didn't mention. I believe you need to look seriously at M7 hardware.

M7 Titan here:

http://www.enha.eu/product_info.php/language/en/info/p40_felgenschraube-m7x32-titan.html/
Almost every M7 spec is displayed here and you could dimensionally match the flange diameter etc:

http://www.titanium-touch.de/shop/index.php?cat=c12_-nbsp--nbsp--nbsp-M7.html

A simple vernier answers most of your questions, M6 thread diameter would be less than 6mm and M7 would be 6mm +. Both are 1.0 pitch so the screw pitch gage is of no value. What's the bore dimension of the holes? Not the painted centers.

[-=Jeff=-]

You are right, these are M7.. Caliper shows just over 6mm on the diameter, head is 8mm 120 are 12pt and 40 are 6 point. I will check the barrel hole size tonight,

Now that I think about it, the but is 11mm also 12pt

[-=Jeff=-]

Another interesting thing..

many I find that are M7x32mm are chrome.. I was thinking Stainless would be good but

the Chrome are tensile strength of 12.9 while Stainless is 10.9

would 10.9 be okay?

[WVZR-1]

I would think you would want to avoid the chrome and 10.9 is fine. The other thing to consider is the torque of these. Some/most I believe settle on a spec that is 17 - 20 lbft. When/if you see values greater than those I'd be somewhat skeptical.

Since time is maybe not an issue why not just post a WTB in the tire/wheels, autocross/road-racing sections of the CF with specs and a "snapshot". Someone may just have a couple handfuls of the "Titan" product you need for a match OR maybe knows "where to get"!

You should have enough information I'd think to do the WTB>

[-=Jeff=-]

well I found a set of Stainless for a good price, I might just go that route, but I will do a WTB on CF and see if anything happens..

[GOLDCYLON]

Another interesting thing..

many I find that are M7x32mm are chrome.. I was thinking Stainless would be good but

the Chrome are tensile strength of 12.9 while Stainless is 10.9

would 10.9 be okay?

Id go with stainless due to pitting rust concerns in your neck of the woods. GC

[-=Jeff=-]

how do I tell if the original bolts were titanium or Stainless?

Next is to verify the flange size, some are 14.9 others are 12.9

I found a set of Stainless with the 12.9 flange, but need to measure mine at home

[GOLDCYLON]

how do I tell if the original bolts were titanium or Stainless?

Next is to verify the flange size, some are 14.9 others are 12.9

I found a set of Stainless with the 12.9 flange, but need to measure mine at home


Gotta be stainless.. titanium would have cost a boat load still does to this day

[-=Jeff=-]

so If I go stainless I could just do one wheel to match it or get all new bolts nuts..

[GOLDCYLON]

so If I go stainless I could just do one wheel to match it or get all new bolts nuts..

You know you want to go all new. Your there now. Otherwise afterwords it will be I should of, could of would of. Treat yourself right.. do it right in one. :-D

[-=Jeff=-]

Hey WV,
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-j9VOj2HFxlk/Up01EYD_O0I/AAAAAAAAEq4/e-6acW6lsoQ/w402-h714-no/IMG_20131202_193224211.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qRX3ABuHTlc/Up01FqffafI/AAAAAAAAErA/ElxSz2n8HzU/w402-h714-no/IMG_20131202_193151686.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XCj85AoPN6s/Up01G_XyCsI/AAAAAAAAErE/CgenfRJTR8A/w402-h714-no/IMG_20131202_193105758.jpg

Oh do you guys think a difference of 2mm on the flange will make a big difference?

meaning if I get all new Bolts the stainless are 12.9 flange, not 14.9

also most I find are chrome plated, not many Stainless ones.

[-=Jeff=-]

it is interesting, most bolts I find or in Germany or UK, 1.99Euro for Titanium, 1.30Euro for Stainless

found some others on eBay $200 for Stainless with zinc nuts shipped.

One thing interesting is all the nuts I have on my wheels match, just 40 bolts that don't

So most of what I find are
Chrome
Gold
Black Chrome

[WVZR-1]

The wheel bores seem to be consistent for what's expected. They seem to spec out at an SAE of .009 so I'd think the bore and the M7 is a fit. I found some pretty interesting M7 hardware and I'll try to get back to you in the AM. I think maybe the thing to do is either spend the money for the 40 TITAN to match or maybe consider an "all in" for the set.

What can people with these wheels pass on for information? I haven't seen a sole with the wheels respond with what's on theirs NOR have I seen you ask. I'd think I'd be asking what the originals are on some of the wheels that are out there. Not that they're any better than others but it might be something to consider. 12.9 vs. 14.9 I think of no consequence with a 40 bolt assembly. Were it an assembly of 24 - 30 it might be of some concern. Follow?

Some have reversed the assembly for offset purposes I believe and they should be able to pass on what they found when disassembling.

[-=Jeff=-]

Yeah I figured they would post up, I will post on here and Cf looking for help, looking forward to your findings

[WVZR-1]

The hardware I found all has provisions for "wire" so that's a no go. I believe the two links I gave you the other day both have the TITAN product and there's minimal difference in price. They're certainly light so the ship should be tolerable but I wonder about the other fees. It would be nice to be able to source them from the UK - I don't think the additional fees are as steep.

I'd just maybe do an inquiry to both and see what can be accomplished.

I don't know if it would be worthwhile to maybe make a couple calls to some domestic 3-piece wheel constructors or not. Maybe the SSR/Tanebe Group would be a choice. The dimensions are resolved, if a match is desired that's resolved I'd guess so it's a matter of "doing".

It looks like you've one interested in participating for a buy of 40 - 80 so that should I'd think help the cause.

[-=Jeff=-]

M7 Titan here:

http://www.enha.eu/product_info.php/language/en/info/p40_felgenschraube-m7x32-titan.html/
Almost every M7 spec is displayed here and you could dimensionally match the flange diameter etc:

http://www.titanium-touch.de/shop/index.php?cat=c12_-nbsp--nbsp--nbsp-M7.html

I emailed/submitted site messages to both of those, I found those too in my searching as well as your links.

both have one close, we will see what they come back with

[WVZR-1]

I emailed/submitted site messages to both of those, I found those too in my searching as well as your links.

both have one close, we will see what they come back with

Both had the TITAN - one @ 1,99 and the other @ 1,80 and I thought the fees were less. They weren't close, I'd have guessed a match. Did I miss something there?

[-=Jeff=-]

nope, you got it and thanks, but I emailed seeing if they had a price break for x amount,

if they say I would get a better price at 100 pcs or 500 pcs, then I will inquire to anyone wanting a set. either way one of those will work if I decide to just do the one wheel or even all 4.

edit: when I mean close, I asked one if there was other lettering, then described what I had in hopes they might know what will match to it (is it stainless, plated, etc)

[WVZR-1]

nope, you got it and thanks, but I emailed seeing if they had a price break for x amount,

if they say I would get a better price at 100 pcs or 500 pcs, then I will inquire to anyone wanting a set. either way one of those will work if I decide to just do the one wheel or even all 4.

Forgot to mention - I've passed those two links on to an industrial fellow in Austria that buys in that part of the world regularly and I would expect him to answer by likely Thursday.

[-=Jeff=-]

You know I am really starting to think the bolts are Titanium..

They seem light ( I know they are small)

they have 'TITAN' stamped on them, at one of the links you gave me the TITAN is called out as TITANIUM, the other says nothing of the material

[WVZR-1]

You know I am really starting to think the bolts are Titanium..

They seem light ( I know they are small)

they have 'TITAN' stamped on them, at one of the links you gave me the TITAN is called out as TITANIUM, the other says nothing of the material

I assumed that from the beginning and it's an alloy of course and NOT I believe a Titanium in the "aircraft spec" that most are familiar with and believe that all Titanium are done to that spec. I found some very nice Titanium to that "spec" in the correct dimensions but the pricing was $17 - $20 per. There's many "wives tales" out there as to how to determine Titanium product. The alloys are of course more difficult to determine. The RO I believe ID's the alloy and it's anti-corrosive properties but I didn't investigate it much.

[-=Jeff=-]

I assumed that from the beginning and it's an alloy of course and NOT I believe a Titanium in the "aircraft spec" that most are familiar with and believe that all Titanium are done to that spec. I found some very nice Titanium to that "spec" in the correct dimensions but the pricing was $17 - $20 per.

SO here are my options as I see it:

Option 1) Buy enough for one wheel, they will be 'TITAN' and close (Lettering may not be exact Mine also have 'R O' on them) but they are the same (~$150, plus shipping, not including nuts)

Option 2) Buy Stainless for all 4, found a set for ~$200 shipped from UK with Zinc Nuts)

Option 3) Buy Chrome plated for all 4, Found them for $.90ea and $.35 each nut ~$200 plus around $20 for shipping (from USA Vendor)

Leaning towards #1 or #2.. my biggest concern will be if I buy the 40 (option 1) and the color being different.. Might be okay, I might be over thinking it..

But my wheels will remain apart until I decide what to do..

[-=Jeff=-]

M7 Titan here:

http://www.enha.eu/product_info.php/language/en/info/p40_felgenschraube-m7x32-titan.html/
Almost every M7 spec is displayed here and you could dimensionally match the flange diameter etc:

http://www.titanium-touch.de/shop/index.php?cat=c12_-nbsp--nbsp--nbsp-M7.html


Ok,

first link is Approx $150 for one wheel (40 bolts/nuts) Tax and Shipping (Germany)

Second Link is Approx $220 for one wheel+ (50 bolts/nuts) tax and shipping, (This place has a 50 piece minimum) Also from Germany

Or I go for the heavier Stainless bolts and nuts for $200 shipped from the UK (This is a clearance price too, he is switching to Polished Stainless) but what he currently has would be fine with me

their is not much online listed in the US

[-=Jeff=-]

Bought a set of Stainless hardware and nuts for $200 shipped..

I felt that was better then $150+ for one wheel in titanium



Anyway, I cleaned up the barrels and set a center in for a few more pictures

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-rkuawVl22q8/Up6ibv5WLoI/AAAAAAAAErc/7MNUCDd0lP8/w492-h874-no/IMG_20131203_212243930_HDR.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-x1Q-QY2Cysw/Up6ic2OIe-I/AAAAAAAAErk/KrDXLo1GEwg/w492-h874-no/IMG_20131203_212213819.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4wxXwRIV5Ds/Up6ievPcSoI/AAAAAAAAErs/qibaSz2aV9M/w492-h874-no/IMG_20131203_212226660_HDR.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Ol5-LxiAflA/Up6if2GhPuI/AAAAAAAAErw/HmQAFcybwwk/w492-h874-no/IMG_20131203_212220762.jpg

[WVZR-1]

Bought a set of Stainless hardware and nuts for $200 shipped..

I felt that was better then $150+ for one wheel in titanium


Since they're already disassembled I think that's likely a "wise buy". You'll know when you have them in hand. You've also established a "value" of the 120 of the correct hardware that you have now if others should need.

[-=Jeff=-]

yep, Thanks for all your help!!

Now since I am waiting for hardware, maybe I can tackle the brakes. LOL

[5ABI VT]

Wish I saw this sooner.. I have a few hundred HRE bolts and nuts in bags from the sets or so ive rebuilt/refinished over the last 2 years. What do the original bolts look like? Refinish looks good pc is the way to go. Did you leave any bolts in your lip/barrels? Im assuming so.. the tires can push the silicone apart unless its a stretch fit.

Heres a set I hand brushed for my m3 last year, Clear powedercoat. I pay 160 for 4 centers.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v141/5abivt/HRE%20540R/9F9EC9A9-ACEA-42CD-A2FF-2178143456F7-182-0000000F8165A968.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/5abivt/media/HRE%20540R/9F9EC9A9-ACEA-42CD-A2FF-2178143456F7-182-0000000F8165A968.jpg.html)

My pc guy knows me and tapes off the backpad and the lip area where all the bolts touch and outer/inner pieces mate. Powdercoat is pretty consistent in thickness but its just something I do.

[-=Jeff=-]

Yes they did the same for me on the back side of my wheels since that is the mating surface I am using.. the correct bolt is on the right in this picture:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7objDBsMeUQ/UpthT438tJI/AAAAAAAAEqo/CS6-FqWA1E8/w308-h547-no/IMG_20131201_101113060_HDR.jpg

[-=Jeff=-]

Bolts in all of them.. just need to tighten and torque them all (and probably add some loctite)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lAsWFQTxHOs/Uqmu2HfhCOI/AAAAAAAAEuM/8UumO_mHz-s/w727-h409-no/IMG_20131211_223733557.jpg

[WVZR-1]

I thought you might show us the bolt head. The bolt head has no issues with conventional metric configurations? M8 X 12 pt or? Very similar to what the originals were or smaller flange?

[-=Jeff=-]

I thought you might show us the bolt head. The bolt head has no issues with conventional metric configurations? M8 X 12 pt or? Very similar to what the originals were or smaller flange?

I can I have a couple extra, it was late when I took the picture

Head is M8 12pt, size is M7, the flange is a bit smaller Diameter but that is it. otherwise almost the same as the originals

[-=Jeff=-]

Done:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TXgimqSgsFE/UsotuzHk28I/AAAAAAAAE1g/W-fi_eUWWkw/w1116-h628-no/IMG_20140105_220829516.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ORSmb_sdKSs/Usotvy6lPdI/AAAAAAAAE1o/VcQOFP61lvY/w1116-h628-no/IMG_20140105_220824862.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-H2Yl3eJ9dMc/UsotxL93lYI/AAAAAAAAE1w/36otfmXsC8o/w1116-h628-no/IMG_20140105_220816837.jpg

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Gorgeous! Your car will look awesome!!

[GOLDCYLON]

Look great -=JEFF=-

[JimZRyd]

Those Shelby's do look awesome!!!

[WVZR-1]

Jeff - I'd say you've done well!! What about the "barrels"?

[USAZR1]

Wow! Those wheels turned out great.

[Hog]

You can use a grinder and torch to determine rough metallurgy.

Titanium-although titanium is a non-ferrous metal, it gives off a great deal of sparks. These sparks are easily distinguishable from ferrous metals, as they are a very brilliant, blinding, white color.

300-series stainless steel
These sparks are not so dense as the carbon steel sparks, do not fork, and are orange to straw in color.

310-series stainless steel These sparks are much shorter and thinner than the 300-series sparks. They are red to orange in color and do not fork.

400-series stainless steel
400-series sparks are similar to 300-series sparks, but are slightly longer and have forks at the ends of the sparks.

Spark characteristics
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/Paul_Schermerhorn/spark1.png (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Paul_Schermerhorn/media/spark1.png.html)
(A) High-carbon steel
(B) Manganese steel
(C) Tungsten steel
(D) Molybdenum steel


http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/Paul_Schermerhorn/spark2.png (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Paul_Schermerhorn/media/spark2.png.html)
A) Wrought iron
(B) Mild steel
(C) Steel with 0.5 to 0.85% carbon
(D) High-carbon tool steel
(E) High-speed steel
(F) Manganese steel
(G) Mushet steel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushet_steel)
(H) Special magnet steel

Flame testing

Color of flame in presence of Titanium ion is Silver white or White-Silver.



Here is a cool little page that lets you pick a substance and it gives you info and the flame colour result for that substance
http://www.webconversiononline.com/flame-color-test.aspx?element=titanium


So if you take your grinder and just quickly touch some part of a bolt to it and see a brillian blinding White colur, you have Titanium alloys, if you see an Orange-Red colour, you have yourself some sort of Stainless Steel.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
the following is just a gab about some pretty manly machines, long read.

I remember putting a flame to Magnesium ribbon and it burned a very bright white and left a white ash.
Phosphorous and Lithium when exposed to Oxygen burn violently, hence White Phosphorous (Willy-Pete) being used in incendiary weapons.

Titanium has the highest strength to weight ratio of ANY metal, hence it's expansive(85% of the aircraft is Ti) use when building the CIA's A-12 MAch 3.3 spy plane, the USAF's YF-12A Interceptor and eventually the more public SR-71. The fuselage on these planes fits VERY loosely on the ground and they actually leak fuel, it's not until airborne, after the airframe heats up, do all the parts come into alignment and fit tightly. They are given small takeoff fuel loads of the exotic JP-7 fuel, then once airbourse they hit a tanker and fill up. JP-7 is highly viscous(for jet fuel) it is also hard to ignite. The ground crews must use a chemical named Triethylborane (TEB) to start the Pratt & Whitney J-58 Ramjet engine along with a powerful "Start Cart" to get them lit. TEB ignites spontaneously when exposed to the air. Originally the "start Carts" were powered by 2 Buick Wildcat V8 engines, but later on, they smartened up and moved over to Chevrolet power, in the form of dual Big Blocks. Bases where teh SR71 was stationed, such as Kadena Japan, eventually went to a MUCH queter pneumatic starting system, and thetwin BBC start carts were ferried around where needed. These "start carts" spun the engine up to 3,200 rpm, a 50cc or 1.7 ounce shot of TEB is initiated as the Pilot moves the throttle from "Cut-Off" to the "Idle" position that allows the JP-7 fuel to flow and the engine can then self-sustain. Then the start cart is disconnected and wheeled over to teh other side to start the 2nd engine. Each engine carries a nitrogen-pressurized sealed tank with 600cc or 20.7 ounces of TEB. The amount of TEB was actually the limiting factor of the SR-71 endurance as a full TEB tank allowed ofr roughly 16 "hits".
Filling the TEB tanks required all non filling team persons to be absent from the area. The TEB teams wore those silver relective fire suits and SCBA(sel Contained Breathing Apparatus) just like firefighters. This contrasts the safe ground refueling of teh SR-71 where full maintenance teams can be working on teh jet DURING the refueling.
I often wondered that it sounded like a whole lots of hassle of starting and cranking up teh afterburners with such a hard to ignite fuel such as JP-7. Then I learned that the JP-7 fuel itself is actually used as a coolant to cool the Engine
Hydraulic fluid systems
Engine Oil
TEB tank
Actuator control lines
Air Conditioning systems
Parts of the airframe subjected to aerodynamic heating

And the Afterburner nozzle
(very, very hot-notice the nozzle in the picture below-many parts of the afterburner chamber are incandescent and the parts at almost the very end appear black, as the JP=7 fuel is taking away the heat in the nozzle-kind of like the regenerative cooling of the Space Shuttles Main Engines which run cryogenic fuels through the engine bell in order to cool it, during the final checjout off each Shuttle before they were launched for the 1st time(called a FRF or Flight Readiness Test), the Shuttles 3 SSME's are run at 104.5% for 20 seconds, then shut down-they immediatley turn white as they fost up, even though seconds before flames reaching 3,315 °C (6,000 °F), higher than the BOILING point of Iron, were flowing through the bell.
Can see this here during the STS-26 FRF (Flight Readiness Firing of Space Shuttle Discovery which launched for the actual STS-26 Return to Flight(RTF) following the Challenger disaster at the start of STS-51-L.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUHLdJsoUOE



The JP7 fuel was so hard to get burning, that the TEB was needed to light the J-58's afterburners. Each canister of TEB was good for 16 "shots" 1 needed for starting theengines, another fir takeoff to light the afterburners(2), then the plane hooks up with a tanker, then the TEB is hit again to re-ignite the afterburners(3), fly to nearthe area where you wnat to spy-hit a tanker-more TEB to reignite the burners(4), go do your spying the cametras on the SR71 can record 100,000 square miles in 60 minutes, get out of enemy airspace connect with tanker, re-ignite the afterburners with TEB(5) and get you *** home. TEB burns with a green colour and can be seen when starting.

Here is a picture of the very last J-58 engine to be run just prior to the program being terminated. The engine is being run WOT on full afterburners. The reason for this run was simply to "dispose" of the remaining JP-7 fuel in storage at the engine test facility.
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb373/Paul_Schermerhorn/Space/J58.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Paul_Schermerhorn/media/Space/J58.jpg.html)


For those interested in Space SHuttles, here is the internal view of the crew during launch. July 4, 2006 headed the STS-121 crew toward the International Space Station.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsmW_y04z_Y

3:00 Launch occurs at
4:20 Throttle up call at
SRB (Solid Rocket Booster) Seperation at 5:07 You can see the seperation motorts firing at thetop of each booster through the windows. These rocket push the boosters away from the stack. They seperation rockets actually leave blackened marks on the tank.
7:09 Negative return call-The Shuttle could come back to the Shuttle Landing Facility near the lauch site at Kennedy Space Center, even if it wanted to.
8:47 Press to ATO- Select Istres means that the Shuttle can ATO(Abort To Orbit) if it lost a single engine. And to select the TAL Trans Atlantic Landing as Istruss. Meaning the Shuttle would head down and make turns to slow teh Shuttle down for a landing at Istres Airforce Base in France. The other choice of a TAL abort landing was Zaragoza or Moron both in SPain. NASA sends C5 jets ahead to these places to setyup before each launch. The setup includes nettiung to catch the Shuttle and slow it after landing. Also access and cooling equipement was transported as well.

A single engine shutdown would result in a lower than planned, but still safe orbit. In all 135 flights, an Abort To Orbit was only called once. It was by Space Shuttle CHallenger during STS-51-F. Three minutes and 31 seconds into the ascent, one of the center engine's two high pressure fuel turbopump turbine discharge temperature sensors failed. Two minutes and 12 seconds later, the second sensor failed, causing the shutdown of the center engine. 8 minutes into the flight, one of the same temperature sensors in the right engine failed, and the remaining right engine temperature sensor displayed readings near the redline for engine shutdown. Quick actions of Jenny M. Howard aBooster Systems Engineer instructed the crew to "Set Limits To Inhibit" when the crew did this, no more engines would shut down based on readings from sensors on the engines. IfMs. Howard waited or did not send these instructions up to the crew on Challenger, a 2nd engine WOULD have gone down leaving Challenger with only a single engine. This incident occured on July 29 1985 at 3:00PM EDT, which was obviously before the Challenger disaster less than 7 months later. At this time, there was no way for the Astronauts to eject, or bail out. They HAD to either land the Shuttle on a runway or ditch in the water. Computer simulations of water ditches came with results of LC/LV(Loss of Crew/Loss of Vehicle). It wasnt until after after the Challenger disaster that NASA forced Astronauts to wear semi pressurized launch/landing suits(the previous launch/landing environments was "hirt-sleeves" they only wore those blue cotton overalls, no gloves, no helmets-except of STS-1 through STS-4 "test" flights where the Pilot and Commander wore ACES pressurized suits and helmets which came directly from the SR-71 program. Even the 2 ejection seats were from the SR-71. After STS-4 President Reagan proclaimed the STS or Space Transportation
System as OPERATIONAL, so the ejection seats were stripped from Columbia and crew size went from 2 up to 5-7 with 8 people being carried twice. 4 on the flight deck and the rest on the mid-deck.

After the STS-51-L disaster, in addition to the orange semi-pressure suits, NASA implemented, gloves and helmets and also a system of getting the crew OUT of the Shuttle in a situation where ditching was unavoidable. At 30,000ft they would blow the side hatch pyrotechnically, Auto-pilot would be engaged in a safe level glide path. A 12 ft "slide pole" would be extended out fo the hatch. Then the crew would attach themselves to the pole and step off and slide down the pole to its end and then freefall til tehir chutes deployed then they would fall gently into the North Atlantic where they woudl steep until rescue crews pciked them up. The purpose of the slide pole was to allow suffcient clearance of the crewmember and the left wing and the left elevons. By the time the last crew member was out of the Shuttle, altitudes would have been under 10,000ft. The bailout sequence would have to be quick and smooth as the SHuttle would be descending at glide ratio of 4.5:1 at subsonic speeds or about double that of a "flying Squirrel", at Hypersonic speeds this falls to 1:1. For every 1 foot of lost altitude, teh Shuttle would move forward by 4.5 ft at subsonic speeds. So it it dropped 10,000ft it would have moved forward by 45,000ft.
In other words, it kinda glides like a brick. Purpose built sail planes can approach ratios of 70:1, hang gliders 15:1, a fuel exhausted Boing 767-200 approx 12:1.

AT this point the Shuttle can still ATO or reach a safe orbit on a single engine, although they will have to burn this single engine for a longer duration in order to build up enough orbital velocity.

9:26-Single engine Istres OPS 104 call-This call means that the Shuttle can make it to Istres AFB if 2 engines are down.

8:54-Press to MECO(Main Engine Cut Off) call- means that they are good to move forward to previously calculated MECO times.
The pitch and the plux manouvers are when the Shuttle drops it's external fuel tank then teh Shuttle rolls over so the guy in teh 2nd row of seting in this video can unbuckle his belts and grab a camera and take photographs of the External Tank out of the top window of the Orbiter. This is done to investigate foam loss or other abnomalities of the tank. This will be the last time human eyes willl see tank as it will burn up over the Indian Ocean.

And of course the video cuts off before I can see the throttle down. So here is another in cabin video of launch. This is of shuttle Columbia, apparently after the Challenger disaster as the crew is wearing the orange suits and helmets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie-uoZoaMRY

3:09 throttles pulled back to beginnning to be pulled back from 104%
3:16 throttles are now at the 67% setting to reduce stress as the stack goes supersonic
3:40 shows a great pic of the stack going transonic
throttles back up at 104%
3:47 command throttles from 67% back up to 104%
3:50 throttles are back up at 104%
4:04 after the throttles are opened back up again, mission control re-checks the the Shuttle's status and is confirmed as a GO at throttleup Notice how much smoother and quieter the ride gets after going supersonic and as the atmosphere begins to thin out.
4:44 the "less than fifty" call is given, this means that the Solid Rocket Boosters combustion chambers have a pressure less than 50 psi, its now safe to jettison teh boosters and move into the 2nd stage of the system
4:46 SRB's jettison, you can here the thump of the pyros severing the connections between the SRB's and the external tank, you can also see the flash from the seperation rockets that push the boosters away form the Shuttle stack
4:50 The call of "103" is referencing the change from the 1st stage of flight(102) to the next stage which is referred to as "103"
5:05 Commander calls for open visors if you wish.
5:32 the TAL land site is Bagul if needed.
6:23 Commander states that they have broken the 50 mile space barrier and now have 4 new Astronauts.
6:45 negative return, no longer able to return to launch site or the Return To Launch Site RRLS Abort is no longer an option. They either have to perform a TAL (Trans Atlantic Landing Abort, or a Abort Once Around(AOA-Abort where the fly around the Erath once and land back in White Sand, or perform an ATO or Abort To Orbit.
6:53 Mach 13 cal
6:58 press on to Main Engine Cutoff
7:05 they can get to Banjul with 2 engines down
7:18 someone comments "there coming on now" referring to teh G loads building up as the stack becomes lighter and lighter as fuel is consumed
7:44 Mach 17 so in 50 seconds they have accelerated from 9895.6mph to 12940.4mph.
8:24 Mach 20 or 15524mph
8:28 main engins beg to throttle back to keep the stresses to teh orbiter and the Astros limited to 3g
8:45 Mach 22 or 16576mph
9:16 Mach 25 or 19030mph
9:26 MECO and you can see the seats recoil forward after being loaded back by 3.0g acceleration
9:44 that bang is the external tank being released


Sorry about the book, but - coloured sparks, JP-7 fuels being lit by Green burning self igniting TEB to get J-58 Ramjets spun up by using TWIN Big Block Chevrolet Engines, to power the fastest jet to ever be flown skirting at 90,000ft which then leads into Space Shuttle Main Engines which are the most efficient engines ever built which convert 99.5% of it's fuel into thrust which HAVE to be throttled back from 104.5% down to 65% about 45 seconds before they are shut down, just to keep the Astronauts from pulling more than 3 g;s of acceleration - simply gets me all worked up. The only thing that could top these types of topics, is talk of souped up LT5's tuning and burning and spinning 4 camshafts at 3500+rpm by a crankshaft spinning 7000+rpm.