This is weird

[mgbrv8]

I recently finished a extensive plenum pull

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10201021415884459.2217036.1439230280&type=1&l=8f46fa4533

Now I have put over 1000 miles sense and the car was running great, but I just finished a 500 mile trip and got back it ran fine. but today it started fine ran good then I turned on the power key and no difference in power like they weren't opening matter a fact I would hold WOT and every now and then in the upper rpms it intermittently fall on its face. it idles fine starts up fine. what the heck??

Dave

[Schrade]

DTC History codes?

[mgbrv8]

good point ill check the pump tomorrow


Dave

[QB93Z]

What year is the ZR-1?

[GOLDCYLON]

What year is the ZR-1?

91 according to his profile.

[mgbrv8]

What year is the ZR-1?

So sorry it's a 91

Dave

[mgbrv8]

Okay when I get back in town my first check will be the pump. So my next thing will be the power keys contacts (cause my dash light dose light)?? Well of course besides pulling codes.

Dave

[GOLDCYLON]

Okay when I get back in town my first check will be the pump. So my next thing will be the power keys contacts (cause my dash light dose light)?? Well of course besides pulling codes.

Dave


David check the pump first

If your Green LED is lit next to the full power script on your radio surround valet key.... then the valet key power module is working correctly. Have you been able to pull any codes from the ALDL ??? That would point to a secondaries failure and a SES light in the DIC? If not then make sure the pump is working.

[mgbrv8]

It unfortunate Dave but some of us get tired of it. Have you looked into your pump yet ?

Not yet I won't be home until Tuesday.

[GOLDCYLON]

Not yet I won't be home until Tuesday.

Ok let us know so we can advise you further.

[Blue Flame Restorations]

If you still have your secondaries and IF they are part of the problem, you could always eliminate them (rip them out) and any future vac issues that may be associated with them. Again, only IF that is part of the issue.

[GOLDCYLON]

If you still have your secondaries and IF they are part of the problem, you could always eliminate them (rip them out) and any future vac issues that may be associated with them. Again, only IF that is part of the issue.

Very true a lot of helpful documentation on how to pull them or pin them on here. A lot of us have pulled them over the years to get rid of the secondary issues. It sucks to have to pull the plenum every time a 63 code comes up

[Dynomite]

today it started fine ran good then I turned on the power key and no difference in power like they weren't opening matter a fact I would hold WOT and every now and then in the upper rpms it intermittently fall on its face. it idles fine starts up fine. what the heck??
Dave

I would start by confirming the secondary operation. Also check secondary vacuum pump, vacuum leaks (would have to be major). Then if power key or something else can be diagnosed. Always good to confirm secondary operation in any event :thumbsup:

[mgbrv8]

Okay here is a recap, Okay with the PowerKey off and after a 20 or so minutes of driving my check engine light turns on. Prior to the check engine light the car runs just fine through the rev range. Once the check engine light turns on when I use throttle past 3000 I have a very strong stumble or cut off. And with check engine on or off I don't have my secondaries opening. I check the pump is working and yes it is, and the codes I pulled are 52(Pass-key key detection circuit shorted) and 61(Pass-key – key #1 programming resistance out of range). About 200 miles ago I just completed a extensive under plenum rebuild the link is below of everything that I did. What is my next move gentlemen.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=8f46fa4533

Dave

[WVZR-1]

Okay here is a recap, Okay with the PowerKey off and after a 20 or so minutes of driving my check engine light turns on. Prior to the check engine light the car runs just fine through the rev range. Once the check engine light turns on when I use throttle past 3000 I have a very strong stumble or cut off. And with check engine on or off I don't have my secondaries opening. I check the pump is working and yes it is, and the codes I pulled are 52(Pass-key key detection circuit shorted) and 61(Pass-key – key #1 programming resistance out of range). About 200 miles ago I just completed a extensive under plenum rebuild the link is below of everything that I did. What is my next move gentlemen.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=8f46fa4533

Dave

It appears you've maybe confused CCM codes with ECM/Driveability codes - using a '90 FSN DTC 52 is EOT and would shut down secondary system and 61 would be a Secondary Port Throttle code - both very relative to your issues.

[A26B]

It appears you've maybe confused CCM codes with ECM/Driveability codes - using a '90 FSN DTC 52 is EOT and would shut down secondary system and 61 would be a Secondary Port Throttle code - both very relative to your issues.

:cheers: Always ready with good info.

Mgbrv8: Always start with the lowest numerical DTC.

[mgbrv8]

First off thank you so much for straightening that out I really do appreciate it. So what we are saying is that I have a faulty EOT sensor? Where is that located and where can i find one?

Dave

[WVZR-1]

First off thank you so much for straightening that out I really do appreciate it. So what we are saying is that I have a faulty EOT sensor? Where is that located and where can i find one?

Dave

GM # 10096136 for a '91 I believe and it's below the cooler outlet/inlet ports facing forward on a horizontal. I would think Jerry has but if you buy "local" you shouldn't have issues. I didn't say you "need" one but it's where the 52 takes you. The diagnostics in the FSM for it are quite complete with Ohm values for temps etc. If your car isn't a '90 or '91 the part # is different. I thought I remembered yours being a '91.

An ACD "jobber" would be more inclined to have it on their shelf than a dealer. You could call first. The inventory requirements for ACD "jobbers" is substantially different than the dealer requirements.

[Schrade]

First off thank you so much for straightening that out I really do appreciate it. So what we are saying is that I have a faulty EOT sensor? Where is that located and where can i find one?

Dave

Maybe don't rush off too quickly after a device; first test power and grounds in the circuit.

BIGGEST racket in the auto industry is replacing good parts with good parts.

exempli gratia:
Mechanic, to customer, after plugging in the computer to car's ALDL:
"Computer says, DTC 'X' circuit. I can replace 'X' device, and that will probably fix it."

Customer says, "Ok", then pays, and drives off Open Loop, no SES light. 3 days later, first time Closed Loop, SES light. Back to mechanic. Mechanic says, I'll try another 'X' device, and won't charge for the device (but WILL charge labor). And he puts the good 'X' device back on the shelf.

Then it repeats ad infinitum, until customer decides to sell car, with 'Lots of new parts'.

And a corroded ground wire, that could have been fixed in 5 minutes for free, instead of wasting days back and forth to the shop, and $1,740.xx, on good parts.

Customers are dumbaces. Too busy punching buttons, passing inane non-sense on their smart device, instead of using their brains... I even fell for some dumb stuff once at the GMC dealer, WHEN I HAD THE TSB IN MY HAND!!!

Customer SHOULD have said to mechanic, "SHOW ME why you think 'X' device needs replacing".

Sir Rants-A-Lot OUT!
.................................................. .........

You have a multimeter there Dave?

And thanks to Darryl [Dom?] for re-opening the thread...

[mgbrv8]

Is there a test procedure for that sensor????

Dave


Maybe don't rush off too quickly after a device; first test power and grounds in the circuit.

BIGGEST racket in the auto industry is replacing good parts with good parts.

exempli gratia:
Mechanic, to customer, after plugging in the computer to car's ALDL:
"Computer says, DTC 'X' circuit. I can replace 'X' device, and that will probably fix it."

Customer says, "Ok", then pays, and drives off Open Loop, no SES light. 3 days later, first time Closed Loop, SES light. Back to mechanic. Mechanic says, I'll try another 'X' device, and won't charge for the device (but WILL charge labor). And he puts the good 'X' device back on the shelf.

Then it repeats ad infinitum, until customer decides to sell car, with 'Lots of new parts'.

And a corroded ground wire, that could have been fixed in 5 minutes for free, instead of wasting days back and forth to the shop, and $1,740.xx, on good parts.

Customers are dumbaces. Too busy punching buttons, passing inane non-sense on their smart device, instead of using their brains... I even fell for some dumb stuff once at the GMC dealer, WHEN I HAD THE TSB IN MY HAND!!!

Customer SHOULD have said to mechanic, "SHOW ME why you think 'X' device needs replacing".

Sir Rants-A-Lot OUT!
.................................................. .........

You have a multimeter there Dave?

And thanks to Darryl [Dom?] for re-opening the thread...

[mgbrv8]

Okay here are the newest updates. I changed my oil pressure switch which was leaking like a pig and checked my oil temperature sensor. The sensor tested out fine. The problem was still there though with the advice of my good friend Mark Horner I checked the fuel pressure. I didn't think that was the problem because I changed the pumps less than a year ago. When I check the pressure at the rail it was 10 pounds and it wouldn't hold when I took power off the red test wire. So I changed the filter and while I had it off I tested fuel pressure on the filter inlet and it was still 10 pounds. Here's the kicker with the jumper wire attached to the red test wire you can clearly hear both pumps running with your ear on the tank filler. So this leads me to believe there is a faults in the rubber connector hose from the fuel pumps to the fuel line. What do you guys think??? I am going to attack it in the morning the mosquito's are out in force this evening.

[Schrade]

I'm probably the last one to offer direction, but maybe pull the 2' pump fuse, and do complete FP tests on primary pump first.

I think that with the 2' pump on, you have the 2' pump check valve involved, which might effect accurate leakdown test for #1 pump...

Could be wrong tho'

[mgbrv8]

First off thank you. You wouldnt have a procedure to reference to by any chance. I was going to check voltage at the pumps tomorrow before I pulled them via the plug connector. Thanks very much

Dave.

[Paul Workman]

So far, so good: narrowed focus on fuel delivery = one if not THEE issue -

What we know:

Two identical pumps, each with a check valve are "Y'ed" together in a single feed line and will provide about 52 psi (static test conditions).
The problem came on suddenly. (This suggests something failing catastrophically - generally easier to find than something intermittent or insidious; a good thing, far as troubleshooting goes)
Jumping the battery to the fuel pump connector (ignition switch OFF) at least ONE pump can be heard. (Both might be running, but we don't know that. However, even with ONE pump continuously running, the pressure should be 50+, NOT 10. So, for now, we can set that aside move on. We can make a mental note to verify both pumps are running at a later time, if that becomes necessary.)
FP measured LOW at filter input.

Analysis so far:

Pressure is 10# at the filter input too. (This doesn't verify the filter isn't partially blocked, but is important to note perhaps for later, should it be necessary to test it)
Also, since there is no fuel flow in the line between the pressure gauge and the pumps, there will be no pressure drop in the line, even if there was a significant blockage. So... Again, another mental note: we haven't eliminated the possibility of a restriction in the line. However, we're tracking a pressure loss (not related to flow at this time). Time to go to the pump end and see what is going on.

Continuing troubleshooting...

Inspect the external connections at the pump for fuel leaks.
I would like to have known what the (test mode) current draw is with the test connector connected to the battery before we got to this point. But, no harm done if we do that now. Current draw in test mode in the 8-10A range would all but eliminate an electrical connection or grounding problem (but not totally eliminate the possibility...yes, another mental note to come back to, if necessary).

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/Fuelpumpcurrentcheck004.jpg (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/6PPC_bucket/media/tech%20files/Fuelpumpcurrentcheck004.jpg.html)
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/Fuelpumpcurrentcheck001.jpg (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/6PPC_bucket/media/tech%20files/Fuelpumpcurrentcheck001.jpg.html)
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/Fuelpumpcurrentcheck005.jpg (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/6PPC_bucket/media/tech%20files/Fuelpumpcurrentcheck005.jpg.html)

Pulling the pumps now will facilitate a COMPREHENSIVE visual inspection of the fuel pump assembly for anything mechanically impeding fuel delivery, e.g., a leaking hose or connection, or filter inlet blockage, etc (I actually found one of those red shop rags floating in my tank - apparently left and forgotten on a previous venture!)
Each pump has an internal check valve. If either valve is bad, that could be the problem. I found that even with mouth pressure* on the fuel outlet port, I was able to discover a bad check valve. (Note: I replaced my pumps a while back and one had a bad check valve right out of the box.)

*A more scientific and accurate check valve test method can be accomplished by setting the pressure regulator on an air compressor to 50# and rigging up a hose and some clamps to pressurize the pumps' outlet to verify the check valve is working. If one is leaking, then isolate each pump and test.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/7-25-09008.jpg (http://s185.photobucket.com/user/6PPC_bucket/media/tech%20files/7-25-09008.jpg.html)

I would suspect if you get this far, you'll have found the problem. But, IF NOT, then reinstalling the pumps and rigging up a jig to test fuel pressure at the pumps outlet feeding the fuel line is in order. And, if pressure is good there (you can even do a leak-down test too), then we can assume trouble between the inlet to the fuel line at the pump end and the fuel filter. Let's see whatcha come up with to this point, and get back to us...

BE VERY CAREFUL WHEN EXPOSING THE OPEN FUEL TANK!!! No flames, good ventilation, NO ELECTRICAL SWITCHES TURNED ON OR OFF, INCLUDING THE AUTOMATIC AIR COMPRESSOR SWITCH, OR ROOM THERMOSTAT SWITCH...

Good luck. Let us know...

[Schrade]

First off thank you. You wouldnt have a procedure to reference to by any chance. I was going to check voltage at the pumps tomorrow before I pulled them via the plug connector. Thanks very much

Dave.

When Paul W says 'mental note' in previous post; that's IMPORTANT.

Either write it down, or post result on the boards as you go, or both. ESPECIALLY as you progress in the diags testing...

I got so many scratch notes written down from board feedback, calls to Jerry, Marc, Dominic, Jon / FICinj's, etc., ...

[mgbrv8]

Paul and Schrade you guys are the best thanks guys

Dave

[mgbrv8]

I FOUND THE PROBLEM!!!!!! One of the hoses poped off of my pumps because of those pesky plastic clamps so I removed all of them and put metal ones. I put my camera down the filler and sure enough you could see the fuel pouring out.

Dave

[Paul Workman]

Yeah... I'd call that a catastrophic (fuel delivery) failure!

One of those plastic clamps broke on mine too, when I was replacing a bad fuel pump. Went to the steel worm type clamps. No more issues so far.

Glad you found it! Congratz!=D>

Now would be a good time to see what the static and dynamic pressure is, for future reference. Just a thought.:cheers:

P.

[Schrade]

Great!

Now get in, come East, and help me bolt mine up here.

Pizza and a few ales around 6. EASTERN.

[mgbrv8]

Now this is interesting guys. Since I put the metal clamps on the fuel pump lines The car runs better than it ever has. It runs better than when I picked it up from hammer in Idaho in 2009. It runs better than when I put the pumps in a year ago. And even runs better than when I replaced all the injectors six months ago. It has never run this good. Also I used to have a little bit of a hunting issue when I was coasting from about 30 miles an hour to 0 in neutral. That is gone now. Also my car has a Fidenza aluminum flywheel and there has always been a little chatter at Idle. You have to strain now to try to hear any sign of that. I am really amazed with the difference.

Dave

[Z06scentair]

That's great fellow....glad you have it fixed!