So...How much does it cost to build a 380 cube ZR1?

[alnukem]

I was just wondering what it would cost to build a 380 cube LT5(stock LT-5 block with 4" sleeves & stock crank offset ground to 3.7??"). I guess this is our "383" of the LT-5 world. Too bad it took this long to figure it out! I guess we would have 350's with topend jobs & probably no 368's or 385's, then the super mega-strokers. I also think that if rebuilding, more aggressive cams are a lot more reasonably installed. And, I wonder what the torque numbers would look like. Also, any downsides to this combo? Thanks, Tim

[We Gone]

Here is one example. Take your pick.

http://zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/products/major%20engine%20upgrades.htm

[GOLDCYLON]

No downside and about 10K

This included Petes intake cams and porting on the heads.

[LGAFF]

DIY for probably 3-4K

probably closer to 4 with the liner cost

[rkreigh]

price out what you "think" it will cost and double it (ask me how I know)

seriously, I think you are looking at a bit more than 10k, but these guys probably have cheaper and more current sources than I do.

contact pete and marc haibeck and they'll tell you "it depends on what the car needs" and they won't typically know until they get it apart

soooo.... to answer your question

keeping the stock rods? stock cams? I'd run pete's intake and stock exh.

porting the heads (you better) CNC or hand port???

have the headers, exh, blah blah, that you need to make all of it work

it adds up real quick

price out all the parts you need, labor, and options you want

if you can do it for 4k, sign me up for 3 of them!!!

[XfireZ51]

When my 5.7L had Pete's intake cams, I really thought it was a very sweet motor. Very smooth. And it was. I was concerned about adding the exhaust cam being too much, too lumpy, too raucous.
NOW, it is just perfect IMO. So tractable, so driveable. It does exactly what you want it to do and when. It would be difficult to go back. And so if I were to go to a larger displacement LT-5, I couldn't imagine spending the money without doing the cams. If anything, the larger displacement NEEDS the bigger cams to take full advantage of the additional cubes.

[alnukem]

Wouldn't you have to change rods????? Isn't this how your gaining the cubes.....by offset grinding the crank & using small SBC rod journals.

I think I would go with something like Oliver or Manley.

And cams, wouldn't it be a waste to not go bigger @ $1800 for both Intake & Exhaust? I know you would have to buy new tappets.....how much are they? But the cost to install while the engine is out has got to be a lot more cost effective.

[LGAFF]

I believe stock rods work.....need liners and pistons...cams come up now and again. I have a few extra sets of my own I got cheap....

[Scrrem]

If your doing an offset grind on the crank you have to go longer rods, don't you?
Rich

[alnukem]

If your doing an offset grind on the crank you have to go longer rods, don't you?
Rich

Not necessarily......you have to go to smaller connecting rod big end diameter. This is where you gain your throw to increase the stroke. You basically "relocate" the centerline of the rod to further out on the crank. The smaller diameter rod journal lets you do this.

[GOLDCYLON]

If your doing an offset grind on the crank you have to go longer rods, don't you?
Rich


No and stock Rods are fine as they are pretty beefy. This is the biggest bang for the buck before you start getting into the bigger stroker dollars

[GOLDCYLON]

DIY for probably 3-4K

probably closer to 4 with the liner cost


If you have the skillsets, tools, time maybe....

[LGAFF]

Got the original motor from my 90, it will be either a 368 or a 380...so I guess I will find out

[alnukem]

No and stock Rods are fine as they are pretty beefy. This is the biggest bang for the buck before you start getting into the bigger stroker dollars

What type of bearing do you have to run???? Is it a adaptor bearing & then your normal bearings???? It would have to pretty thick?

[Polo-1]

It's up to you which way you want to run them. Google small journal to large journal SBC for the many bearings or bearing spacers out there. 2.000 to 2.125 sbc.

[alnukem]

Thought we should conclude this thread for people that might be looking to rebuild or increase their displacement.

From Polo-1;

A 380ci should be in the 475rwhp 430rwtq range. Better porting, intake cams...
I would think you could hit 500-515rwhp without too much problems.

Stock cranks have been offset ground forever. Most grinds are .100 as the normal cut. The LT5 offset started with Mike Ebert's 396ci motors, I think. The crank guy I used said it has a ton of meat in it and is a high quality unit. I went with 3.750 (3.66 stock) It looks like it can be pushed out 3.775 without any problems. The SBC small journal bearings come in .001 - .030 under size, so thats not a problem.

Like I have said before, I have done the MEGA $$$ 402ci build. If it were for me or anyone else, go for the 380 it's only a few hundred over the 368 build.

From Paul Workman;

All very intoxicating, I must say. (Y'all got me starting to drool over a 380 w/ some cams now...:o)

I ran some numbers based on rwhp/cid for fully ported350s w/intake cams for those of us with "mortal" 350s (est. 450 rwhp) and Pete's insane 474 rwhp 350. For a 380 ci the proportions work out to between 489 rwhp (w/cams) for us "normal" peeps, to 515 rwhp for a setup like Pete's. (He says he keeps the magic formula burried in a Mason jar in his backyard. Maybe that explains why there's so many little pot holes in his back yard...Spoze?)

Anywayz... north of 480 rwhp would make for a lot of low 11-sec LT5s when the team ZR-1 Net Registry makes a run on the club trophy next fall! (But, unless I win the lottery, I'll just have to be happy with my 500+hp, Nikasil 350 (oh, the horror!;))

Fun topic!

P.

From GOLDCYLON;

380 bottom end with full top end porting including the heads and Long tube headers and petes cams = the biggest bang for the buck.

[alnukem]

Here is a incomplete tally of cost that I think I know? If any body has better numbers or wants to fill in the blanks, they should.


CNC Porting Heads 3000
LA Sleeves 1200
Oliver Rods 1200
Porting IH 1700
Offset grinding crank 300
Pete's Cams 1795
Lifters 500


Subtotal 9695


Pistons
Bearings
Machine Work
Assembly
Haliback Head Gasket 334

Of course, if your starting "stock", it doesn't include the headers.

[rkreigh]

390 ci from LPE with full boogie treatment ($36k)

380 CI from Haibeck or other sources with full boogie treatment (less than half of $36k)

HP at tires. the same


technology marches on. the 380 will have a great rod angle, be MUCH cheaper to build.


stirr in some TI rods for fun (they are cheaper now than when LPE put then in the LSV no too) still way cheaper than 36k

wonder if the LS7 rods could work, they are likely some "take out" rods around and they are good to about 700 hp


sorry, but 4500 for a crank is ferrari prices. top fuel cranks are cheaper than that but it's all in the volume


we tried to get a "group buy" on stroker cranks. good luck. there are probably about 30 415s in the world


like to get a "registry" of the ZR-1 aftermarket builds. that would be pretty cool.


with pete putting down about 500 at the tire with a stock block, I honestly don't think a 415 is worth it anymore


you can go big cubes and you'll just choke it off with the limited flow capacity of the heads and make a bit more torque but not much more HP relative to the big $$$

what we need a new billet head with a bigger cam sprocket and turn up the flow. a stock LS LS7 head flows 370 cfm. that's a dream for a LT5 head. good heads flow around 330 cfm, with the "new builds" doing better

but we do have a HUGE advantage is flow velocity and turbulence and much better combustion chamber design. I think a big bore relatively short stroke engine is the way to go.

don't even need more displacement, just more flow, better cam timing, and nikasil coating on the ductile liners and a very free flowing head.

the factory knows a thing or two about building engines. lowering the friction is huge. the lt5 have direct acting cams which create quite a bit of friction even though the direct acting cams are very nice. look at the modern DOHC engines, they have roller cam followers with a fulcrum lever to cut friction. a modern LT5 head would do wonders. and hell, let's put some deck plates on it and make it a 6 bolt design while were at it.

nelson sure could do it, but so could others. I see billet heads whittled all the time even for lowly BB chevies. love to see this done for the LT5

then we can go kick so LS @SS in the meantime, not so much

getting 500 rwhp out of an LS7 is a cakewalk. on an LT5, it takes pete!!!

kudos to that young man, Pete and Marc have "scienced and engineered" the LT5 to keep it viable and competative. and it's such a great engine,it deserves the love. I still favor the ZR-1 over my "faster and more powerful" hardware. as I get older, the "intangibles" like sound, feel, throttle response, and looks start to matter more than the numbers

it's all in how much you "enjoy the ride"

in the end, that's what matters most. the ZR-1 is a faithful mistress, seductive, powerful, and sexy. and the song she sings is from a siren that calls to the masses.

I went to a car show yesterday and quite a few folks had never seen a ZR-1. all of them commented, what a beautiful car and wow does it sound great. the old LSV when it clears it's throat still roars like a mighty lion.

the CCW 505 rims are still for sale, just not the tires. they are toast. I baked them off in honor of some cool fall air. the LT5 quickly "dispatched" with the hideous run flats and I will gladly light them up in the back yard and dance around them as they burn. runcraps are just not for me.

need to get those 18' ccw 505s so I can get back to the toyo RA1s I have on the turbo car. they work well and I have a spare set of 335s just dying to get roasted. use em up before they get old

what a great weekend to crooze the ZR-1. fyi, bob arnold will be selling has LPE stroker. he has a spare engine too. I'll try to get it up on the registry and keep you all posted when it hits ebay.

it's the "sister" car to mine. not quite a powerful, but very nice. he has 82k on it. I'm going to catch him this month and pass

sooooo......... who out there has more than 82k on their stroker LT5???

raise your hand!! cause you "get it"

drive that beeotch like you robbed the nearest bank and are going across state lines.

the LT5 is a masochist, and enjoys the beatings. the engine is an anvil, and I'm trying to wear it out, and it's a job I truely love.

[Scrrem]

This is great information, please keep it coming. I got my new motor on the stand last weekend and started getting her apart.
Rich

[rkreigh]

hey, are you going up to Wazzoo maint day? I'm going to try and make it.

let's caravan up if you are going. thinking of going to Katie's first and heading on up from there.

you up for it? thanks.

[Scrrem]

hey, are you going up to Wazzoo maint day? I'm going to try and make it.

let's caravan up if you are going. thinking of going to Katie's first and heading on up from there.

you up for it? thanks.

Yes going to maintenance day, not sure about Katie's, depends what time I roll out if the rack.

[secondchance]

hey, are you going up to Wazzoo maint day? I'm going to try and make it.

let's caravan up if you are going. thinking of going to Katie's first and heading on up from there.

you up for it? thanks.

Ron,

I think the maintenance day is Sunday.

[rkreigh]

ok, thanks for the reminder. still think I can make it, but I need to check

like to work on the following items

headliner,
install new clutch mast cyl
tighten up the rear spindle bolts
look over installing the new cooling fans (but that will likely have to wait, might be more of a "do at home" project)

[Kevin]

I really need to set up a pittsburgh zr-1 crew.

[secondchance]

ok, thanks for the reminder. still think I can make it, but I need to check

like to work on the following items

headliner,
install new clutch mast cyl
tighten up the rear spindle bolts
look over installing the new cooling fans (but that will likely have to wait, might be more of a "do at home" project)

If you want door panel straightened out show up with plenty of crazy glue and a rubber glove (hate getting that stuff all over my fingers!). We got some glass mats.

[rkreigh]

will do! I will bring the new headliner tape and spray adhesive too

you are the man Yun! are you going to Kate's on Sat??

I got the "green light" for maintenance day

[alnukem]

You know, I tried to make this a education thread, for people new to the ZR1, like me. I felt this might be a good way for someone who was considering building up their car, to give them a place to find answers about a build that would not be as expensive & bump up the torque numbers as a alternate to standard 500 hp 350. I was thinking maybe we could "help the breed". The last 7 posts should have been handled differently, maybe "PM"????? I don't know or care if this against the forum rules, but I know it is very inconsiderate.

[GOLDCYLON]

It happens all the time as folks tend to get off on a tangent. Its nothing personal.

I plan on getting my car dynoed this winter so we can see some numbers that everyone seems to have interest in. Right now its still 105 here in phoenix so.....

This is no sales job and the facts are plain and simple. If your going to go the 368 route anyway... without a doubt this is the biggest bang for the buck mod. Its like and additional $500. Do the math.

It will cost you time unless you have a lot of spare parts to shorten that process. This stroker will benefit from top end porting, head porting, headers and petes cams. I also suggest bigger cooling which I could discuss how I came to that conclusion as well. I also suggest Mark's Haibecks Cometic Head gaskets for obvious reasons.

I partnered with Dom and between me helping him pay for some of his dyno time he has more data on the 380 with Pete Cams setup than even the BIG GUYs have. A couple of us have done it now and its becoming a predictable platform. Mine a daily driver and it took almost a year to get the tune right.

This is a build that was carried on the backs of a lot of folks in this club. Dom, Jerry, Pete, Polo-1 (Kevin). Nobody in this community was talking about a 380 a scant year ago. It was 368, 415 or 441 with one exception Dennis's atomic Z which is a 396.

One last thing if you are going to go this route make sure the crank plugs are welded in if any offset milling/grinding is going to occur. This piece of advice alone will save you time, money and utter frustration when going forward with this project.

Now back to the build notes. GC

[Scrrem]

I'm getting ready to go the 380 route with an offset grind. Does the grinding process dislodge the plug in the crank??
Rich

[GOLDCYLON]

I'm getting ready to go the 380 route with an offset grind. Does the grinding process dislodge the plug in the crank??
Rich


IMHO yes. The crank has a blend of the screwed in type and the pressed in type. GC recommends welding at minimum the expansion (Press in) plugs. You are changing the dynamics beyond what was engineered. Same problem when you add major HP and dont add better cooling, better rear ends and better braking. Disaster.

Read my story of woe

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18568&highlight=motor

[secondchance]

will do! I will bring the new headliner tape and spray adhesive too

you are the man Yun! are you going to Kate's on Sat??

I got the "green light" for maintenance day

I'll be at Katie's. See ya!

[secondchance]

You know, I tried to make this a education thread, for people new to the ZR1, like me. I felt this might be a good way for someone who was considering building up their car, to give them a place to find answers about a build that would not be as expensive & bump up the torque numbers as a alternate to standard 500 hp 350. I was thinking maybe we could "help the breed". The last 7 posts should have been handled differently, maybe "PM"????? I don't know or care if this against the forum rules, but I know it is very inconsiderate.

Woops! Sorry! Did not mean to get side tracked.
Tell you what - once my motor is out, disassembled and components get worked on, etc, etc, etc, I will share my experience of 380 build.

My apologies!

[secondchance]

I'm getting ready to go the 380 route with an offset grind. Does the grinding process dislodge the plug in the crank??
Rich

No - according to Ryan. I will still inspect the plug and make sure all is well before my mechanic starts closing up.
Hmmm, according to GC it's otherwise... I will look into it further.

[GOLDCYLON]

No - according to Ryan. I will still inspect the plug and make sure all is well before my mechanic starts closing up.
Hmmm, according to GC it's otherwise... I will look into it further.


You've been advised. :neutral:

[secondchance]

You've been advised. :neutral:

And noted Redeye!
I will inspect the plug and turn to Dr. Phil for guidance.
Thanks.

[5ABI VT]

Awesome info :) Hopefully Ill be treading down this path in the relatively near future.

What options are there for cams? are custom grinds available? Im tempted to want to do something like my LT4 build.. all lightweight, maxilite rods, hollow valves , solid roller etc.

Im thinking offset grind, longer rod, aggressive cams, hollow valves, solid lifter setup and rpm it a bit more for more hp. Not sure how the lifter setup is on the LT5. The s54 in my e46 M3 had a rocker setup that was easy to maintain lash with via swapping shims.

[alnukem]

GC, Thanks

Does anybody have any Torque numbers from one of these?

[alnukem]

Woops! Sorry! Did not mean to get side tracked.
Tell you what - once my motor is out, disassembled and components get worked on, etc, etc, etc, I will share my experience of 380 build.

My apologies!

No Problem! Was you planning on doing it over the winter?

[secondchance]

Awesome info :) Hopefully Ill be treading down this path in the relatively near future.

What options are there for cams? are custom grinds available? Im tempted to want to do something like my LT4 build.. all lightweight, maxilite rods, hollow valves , solid roller etc.

Im thinking offset grind, longer rod, aggressive cams, hollow valves, solid lifter setup and rpm it a bit more for more hp. Not sure how the lifter setup is on the LT5. The s54 in my e46 M3 had a rocker setup that was easy to maintain lash with via swapping shims.

I think SGC and Pete grinds Stage 1, 2 and 3(?). These are stock cams ground down on the opposite side of the lift lobe (?).
Now that I have more time due to delay I am seriously considering Stage 1, intake.

[XfireZ51]

Awesome info :) Hopefully Ill be treading down this path in the relatively near future.

What options are there for cams? are custom grinds available? Im tempted to want to do something like my LT4 build.. all lightweight, maxilite rods, hollow valves , solid roller etc.

Im thinking offset grind, longer rod, aggressive cams, hollow valves, solid lifter setup and rpm it a bit more for more hp. Not sure how the lifter setup is on the LT5. The s54 in my e46 M3 had a rocker setup that was easy to maintain lash with via swapping shims.

I think the question to ask yourself is , what power level do you want to get to? Again, you may be comparing apples to oranges looking towards the LT4 as a guide. Achievable power with few and simple mods to LT5 is rather impressive. No rockers in LT5, tappets directly actuated by cam lobes.

500+chp w just porting through to the heads, stock cams, headers and exhaust

550chp doable w stock displacement and bottom end. Add Pete cams.

Look at tpepmeir's 427 build for 700+chp and lots of choices in between and up to 441CID.

[RICKYRJ1]

I am watching closely so I can learn from my WAZOO brothers. I will add my name to list of future builds.

[5ABI VT]

I think the question to ask yourself is , what power level do you want to get to? Again, you may be comparing apples to oranges looking towards the LT4 as a guide. Achievable power with few and simple mods to LT5 is rather impressive. No rockers in LT5, tappets directly actuated by cam lobes.

500+chp w just porting through to the heads, stock cams, headers and exhaust

550chp doable w stock displacement and bottom end. Add Pete cams.

Look at tpepmeir's 427 build for 700+chp and lots of choices in between and up to 441CID.

I agree its apples to oranges but its the theme I like to keep the same. As light weight as possible and rpm as high as possible. At the same time 'bang for the buck' seems to be the smart way to go. if I won the lottery though ... oh boy... I would be doing some really fun stuff with this car !

[rkreigh]

Awesome info :) Hopefully Ill be treading down this path in the relatively near future.

What options are there for cams? are custom grinds available? Im tempted to want to do something like my LT4 build.. all lightweight, maxilite rods, hollow valves , solid roller etc.

Im thinking offset grind, longer rod, aggressive cams, hollow valves, solid lifter setup and rpm it a bit more for more hp. Not sure how the lifter setup is on the LT5. The s54 in my e46 M3 had a rocker setup that was easy to maintain lash with via swapping shims.


search for some posts from "fastlane" on his monster 421 car with deck plates and solid lifter cams. car did 900 hp "the hard way" with a custom intake and max ported heads at 9000 rpms. he had to pull the heads and change the chains often. adjusting the solid cams requires pulling the engine so it's not for the "faint of heart" to go this direction.

keep in mind one thing, the stock heads "run out of breath" and don't flow enough for max HP at very high rpms. even with solid porting, 7500 is a pretty agressive power peak and the hyd lifters can go to 8k. the chains are suspect at that rpm

solid lifters are major hassle and the rest of the build needs to be "max effort" to make it even remotely possible. then you need to be committed to frequent engine pulls to maintain the adjustment.

I'd be curious to see how long the adjustment would hold. like to see a solid cam motor that could do 50k between tune ups and valve shim adjustments but I honestly don't know if that is feasible.

not too many folks other than fastlane have gone the solid cam route in the LT5 as it's difficult. but it sure would be cool to see an 9k monster!!!

good luck on the build if you decide to do it. I think if you study fastlanes setup you'll learn alot. he did "deck plates" and stretched liners to get a better rod angle (long rods) used a big bore and relatively short stroke, and of course the custom chains he had made up for th longer deck height

as I remember his deck plates were HUGE and something like .4 thick (don't remember the exact thickness)

like to see where that car is now. it's no longer with Fastlane.

Mr. Lane Goldstein anyone hear from him lately? he is an amazing gent to be sure!

[5ABI VT]

Fairly familiar with the fastlane car it's mighty impressive to say the least. Definitely out of the budget unless of course :). If solid lifters require pulling the motor it's probably out of the question unless I'm confident I can do the work myself.

I recently saw another lt5 go 9200 rpm on YouTube it's a destroked motor with an individual tb setup for an intake ill post the link up. Very very cool. Got me thinking about rpms again. If the heads can't flow the air I think it's a better bet to stick with the recipe of cubes + as much rpm as reliably possible.

Does the motor need to be pulled to do the cams ? I'm thinking about some cams and intake/ih porting or would the heads need to be ported? Not sure what's the biggest choke point on a stock motor.

[KJL]

I am also curious to know if cams can be changed out with motor in car. That would be the next mod I would consider at this point. I already have porting, headers, exhaust, chip etc...

I also see a Fidanza flywheel is also recommended by many. Is this doable with vehicle on jack stands?

[rkreigh]

I am also curious to know if cams can be changed out with motor in car. That would be the next mod I would consider at this point. I already have porting, headers, exhaust, chip etc...

I also see a Fidanza flywheel is also recommended by many. Is this doable with vehicle on jack stands?

while it's technically feasible to time the cams in the car it's not really the best approach and much harder than pulling the motor to do it right

putting a fidanza in the car on jack stands can be done but again NOT really recommended. the ZF 6 speed is a heavy rascal and getting the c beam out can be a hassle without some wiggle room

get a good transmission jack and a lift, it's worth it! I haven't ever done it on jack stands before so I can't comment on how hard it is, but for sure it can be done, just much tougher

[Paul Workman]

When my 5.7L had Pete's intake cams, I really thought it was a very sweet motor. Very smooth. And it was. I was concerned about adding the exhaust cam being too much, too lumpy, too raucous.
NOW, it is just perfect IMO. So tractable, so driveable. It does exactly what you want it to do and when. It would be difficult to go back. And so if I were to go to a larger displacement LT-5, I couldn't imagine spending the money without doing the cams. If anything, the larger displacement NEEDS the bigger cams to take full advantage of the additional cubes.

Dom, did you ever remove the secondary throttle plates, or are they still tied back?

[Paul Workman]

Good topic.

I've got the porting pretty much done on mine as part of my FBI package. So, the topic of a sleeve/off-set with some of Pete's cams...is serious temptation!

However, giving up the Nikasil gives me pause, and I wonder if one is going to do that, then maybe going "whole hog" (AES/closed deck/ stoker) is the better route (for me). And too, part of the reason for pause is Pete's 5.7 often rubs shoulders with motors having over two quarts more displacement and over $10 large more invested: get what is still on the table with the 5.7...I guess is my point. (Then again, Pete probably has $10 large spent on CAM BOLTS by now too! :sign10:)

[rkreigh]

Good topic.

I've got the porting pretty much done on mine as part of my FBI package. So, the topic of a sleeve/off-set with some of Pete's cams...is serious temptation!

However, giving up the Nikasil gives me pause, and I wonder if one is going to do that, then maybe going "whole hog" (AES/closed deck/ stoker) is the better route (for me). And too, part of the reason for pause is Pete's 5.7 often rubs shoulders with motors having over two quarts more displacement and over $10 large more invested: get what is still on the table with the 5.7...I guess is my point. (Then again, Pete probably has $10 large spent on CAM BOLTS by now too! :sign10:)

I hear you. the stock bottom end is very strong even with the mahle pistons. problem is the rings in that size (stock LT5) cost stupid money. marc was looking for a source but but the time you get a custom piston in the stock bore size and pay for LT5 rings that are made out of unobtanium you can afford the liners and more common 4" bore size.

sooooo.... here's what you do. whip out the old check book and have the AES liners nikasil coated! you'll need to get the correct piston rings but end the end you'll have a super durable low friction finish

problem is the nikasil coat job is likely north of 2k!!!

I thought about doing this too after seeing so many LT5 liners after tear down and replacement. they all look NEW. it's amazing stuff to be sure.

also like to hear more about the plasma coating that ford uses on their new blocks. they spray it on the bear alum block and viola!! a linerless block that runs the numbers.

say what you want about ford, but fron an engineering standpoint they are doing some pretty advanced stuff and are the "brother from another mother" to the DOHC v8s.

chevy needs to get off their dead @$$ and do another LT5 with modern tech. they are too hung up on putting truck motors in the corvette

while I'm impressed with 455-460 hp out of the new LT1. the MY 95 put out a conservative 475 hp in 1995~!! come on guys, the new vette needs 500+ to show the world what we can do.

I guess I'm a HP junkie. anything less than 500 at the tire is "insufficient"

[Kevin]

nikasil is used by audi on their lemans 24 hour endurance winner.