no start after battery change

[pablopicasso46]

Ive had my '92 for almost 2 years and have never had a problem with it not starting, until recently, when I foind that after a day or two of sitting the battery would be dead. After charging it up it would start right up,but then be dead a day or two later, so I took it to my mechanic and had them test the battery, which they said was not holding a charge, so I had them put in a new one. Problem solced, I thought..but then they called me and said it wouldn't crank ??? Not the Vats, becasue the security light goes outwitthe key in.. He says it must be the starter which is very expensive to replace ($500 for the starter and like 4.5 hr sor $500 for labor),but couldit be somethng simpler,and/or related to the battery change since it dis always work fine before when the battery was charged?

[Kevin]

hook up with the wazoo guys and I'm sure the labor won't be an issue if it is the starter.

[scottfab]

Before ripping the starter out check the starter relay under the dash. It's located just above your left leg as you sit in the car. Also check the clutch switch located above the clutch peddle.

[pablopicasso46]

Thanks guys..Was just down at the shop and they say they checked all of that (can the relay be checked without actually repplacing it?)and also checked that the (purple ?) wire going to the starter is getting 11.5 volts(is that enough?) so they have concluded it must be the starter. I'm jsut confused as to how it neve rgave me a problem before , cold or hot, but just stpped working after the battery change? Is that possible?

[Dynomite]

Thanks guys..Was just down at the shop and they say they checked all of that (can the relay be checked without actually repplacing it?)and also checked that the (purple ?) wire going to the starter is getting 11.5 volts(is that enough?) so they have concluded it must be the starter. I'm jsut confused as to how it neve rgave me a problem before , cold or hot, but just stpped working after the battery change? Is that possible?

NO......11.5 volts is NOT enough.....You should have 12.75 volts more or less on a fully charged battery (engine off).

12.68v . . . . . . . . . . 100%
12.45v . . . . . . . . . . 75%
12.24v . . . . . . . . . . 50%
12.06v . . . . . . . . . . 25%
11.89v . . . . . . . . . . 0%

Check your Alternator........measure voltage with engine running across battery posts......should get 14 - 15 volts more or less (if battery is not Dead).

Yes....that is possible you cannot start your engine after changing batteries if your charging system is not working or if you installed a Dead Battery.

Try another battery......just disconnect your Dead Battery and jumper a good battery with your Dead Battery disconnected. Do NOT try to jumper your Dead Battery.

Or.......you have an excessive battery drain with
Ignition switch off.

Check specific gravity of all cells of your suspect battery to make sure they are roughly equal. In your case no balls or maybe only one ball will be floating ;)

[scottfab]

Thanks guys..Was just down at the shop and they say they checked all of that (can the relay be checked without actually repplacing it?)and also checked that the (purple ?) wire going to the starter is getting 11.5 volts(is that enough?) so they have concluded it must be the starter. I'm jsut confused as to how it neve rgave me a problem before , cold or hot, but just stpped working after the battery change? Is that possible?

The good news is yes, that is enough on the purple wire.
The bad news is there may be a starter problem after all.
When you turn the key to start, the voltage on the purple wire simply runs to the starter solenoid not the starter motor. The solenoid (mounted on the starter) is suppose to pull in, even 11V will do that. Once it pulls in it completes the circuit which puts the battery pos to the starter motor.
Do you hear any click coming from down in the V when you turn the key to start? If so the solenoid is engaging but not completing the circuit. There is a silver dollar size washer ring in there that gets pitted. One thing to try if you do hear the click is to do several quick moves to the start position in a row. It may engage eventually BUT the bad news it will need a rebuild.
If you hear no click a different approach is needed.

[Dynomite]

Check battery voltage at battery posts.
12.68v . . . . . . . . . . 100%
12.45v . . . . . . . . . . 75%
12.24v . . . . . . . . . . 50%
12.06v . . . . . . . . . . 25%
11.89v . . . . . . . . . . 0%

Maybe time to install Starter Relay to make sure you get maximum Battery Voltage at the Starter Solenoid :D
See item #7 of LT5 Added Systems (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/2942569-tech-info-lt5-eliminated-systems.html#post1579114180)

[pablopicasso46]

Dynomite:

The battery I had kept going dead , so I had to jump the car with my charger to get it to start in order to get it to the shop, which it did, They tested my battery and said it was no good ,so they put a brand new battery in it,and it was after they did that it would no longer start(turn over) They said they then tried a different brand new batttery and I believe even with a jump as well, and still nothing. The 11.5 volt the mechanic was talking about was, I'm pretty sure, on the purple wire to the solenoid, not accross the battery terminals. They haven't been able to check anything with regard to the alternator, becasue it hasnt started at all since the battery change

Scott:

I tried it several times and I do not think I heard a click, and I did , as was suggested in one of the "dreaded no start " threads , try to push the clutch down hard to make sure that the clutch switch was engaging. How can the cltch switch be checked other than by changing it, and the relay also? Is ther e a way to check if it;s the relay withut actually replacing the relay,or should i just have them replace it tosee if that fixes it?

My main confusion is that it always turnedover every time I turned the key.(.other than when the battery was dead, but then it did work once I had charged it or if I jumped it off of my truck),and anly stoppedworking afterthey put the new battery in it..Could chaniging the barrtery have caused this problem, , or aggravated an existing prob lem that hadn't been a problem before?? My feelingis it was working fine when I took it there,except for having a dead battery,and I think they should be givingit back to e still working as it did before, not needing $1000 worth of work to replace the starter .

.any thoughts?
Also if it comes down to it needing a starter,cananew one be purchased,and if so , from where? Mechanic says he doesn;t wantto put a rebuilt in due to the amount of labor involved in putting it in, and in replacingit again if it fails, even if the part is warranted.

Thanks again guys

[scottfab]

Well I think we've established that:
11.89v . . . . . . . . . . 0%
11. 88..................... 0%
11.87.......................0%
etc
and in fact 0V ..........0%

as for root cause
well

You have to look past the battery and whether or not
you last filled the tank or if the moon is out.
Time to focus on what is and what is not.
Forget all that has been checked and assume nothing has
been checked.
Turn the key to start it.
Does the security light flash every second?
No? OK

What happens when you short the "+" on the battery to the purple wire? (with the trans in neutral)
Nothing?
Ok
you must have the plenum pulled and the starter plunger and/or
starter rebuilt.

[Dynomite]

Check the Battery Voltage post to post. If you have 12.7 Volts more or less your battery is fully charged.

1. With car in neutral (car won't start but would jump forward on starter power if in some gear), jumper the purple wire with Positive Battery post.

2. Now if you have a No Start/no engine turn over (car will not start but engine should turn over), either the purple wire connection to starter is failing (from the point of your jumper) or you have a sticky Solenoid, burnt Solenoid points, bad solenoid Coil, or starter bound up on flywheel.

3. This is assuming you have a good connection to the starter from the positive battery post (in other words you are getting power to the Starter main coil (only interrupted by a poor Solenoid Points or inoperable Solenoid) .

4. If you hear a click (Solenoid activating and plunger moving forward) you have only Solenoid ponts to deal with as shown below or your connection from battery to starter main circuit is failing or starter coils or bearings or something else internal to starter (even starter gear bound up on flywheel as suggested in item #3 above. I would suggest that those starter failures would be rare in this case since all this happened only when you changed batteries. That coincidence would be REMOTE.

5. Now if car starts (actually it will not start with the jumper but definitely the starter will turn the engine over) with the purple wire jumper. It becomes obvious you have something in the ignition circuit eating up voltage to give you only 11.5 volts in purple wire (as measured before you jumped the purple wire).

Inspection, Testing and Reconditioning the Valley, Starter, and Coils (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-4.html#post1581663366)

Starter Solenoid Contacts.

I had a NO START condition on a 90' and after I towed it for a start....got home and it fired right up. I would have liked to hot wire the starter (purple wire) when that happens to see if it is the starter or starter ground circuit. Or check that purple wire for 12+ volts when I turn the switch to start. I lean toward ground circuit or sticky starter solenoid. Another indication would be if when you turn the ignition key to start do the lights dim for example indicating a current draw to the starter solenoid/starter.

If the solenoid does not move (no clicking indicating the Starter Solenoid did not move) as in my case then a sticky Solenoid or Solenoid Ground Connection. If the Solenoid clicked/moved...then bad Solenoid contacts or bad connection Battery cable (Positive) to starter/battery or bad ground (Negative) engine to battery.

I Installed a relay in the start circuit of the 90' identical to what I have on the 91' which basically provides direct power from battery to starter Solenoid when relay is activated. This is one of those intermittent issues and does sound like poor electrical connections in either the Starter Negative Connections or Starter Positive Connections. Starter Relay, Wiring Harness, Battery, and Plugs Tricks (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-3.html#post1581564085)

The Starter Solenoid is shown in the left photo with slight burnt contacts in right photo.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/bac49725-6086-4f07-a929-9f1f498e4d50.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/Maintenance%20ZR1/bac49725-6086-4f07-a929-9f1f498e4d50.jpg.html)http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/e8886408-e5b8-40d3-a5d2-199e22f85e0a.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/Maintenance%20ZR1/e8886408-e5b8-40d3-a5d2-199e22f85e0a.jpg.html)

The Solenoid contacts in left photo were wire brushed clean in right photo.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/95a2d94c-6e14-4206-ab39-e157c17fc6a2.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/Maintenance%20ZR1/95a2d94c-6e14-4206-ab39-e157c17fc6a2.jpg.html)http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/e6b04516-3ebb-49ab-9f32-1da552901435.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/Maintenance%20ZR1/e6b04516-3ebb-49ab-9f32-1da552901435.jpg.html)

Complete Starter Disassembly.
Photo provided by others.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/e1e09df6-311e-4048-a50f-65ec8a45ee43.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/Maintenance%20ZR1/e1e09df6-311e-4048-a50f-65ec8a45ee43.jpg.html)

[pablopicasso46]

Security light does not flash, so I know it's not a VATS issue

I'm not sure if they tried jumping the purple wire to the +, but I will find out later today,and if not have them try that..I assume the key doesn;t need to be on for that, I think, as I said , they did measure the voltage in the purple wire while tryingto start it and it was 11.5v..which, as I understand it , is what powers just the solonoid and should be enough for that? I did just go down to the shop and try to start it and interestingly, I discovered that the new battery was completely dead .no int lights or anything,so maybe there is a drain on it somwhere? I jumped to my truck..which has always worked before,but this time nada.. When i turned the key the voltage on the dash gauge did drop by about 4 v and I lasitened closely but I didn't hear any click so does that mean it;s most likely the solonoid(and not the starter itself?) As yousaid Dynomite, I find it odd that the starter would go out just whe the batery was changed(?)

Thanks again

Will figure it out eventualy , I'm sure

[Dynomite]

Security light does not flash, so I know it's not a VATS issue

I'm not sure if they tried jumping the purple wire to the +, but I will find out later today,and if not have them try that..I assume the key doesn;t need to be on for that, I think, as I said , they did measure the voltage in the purple wire while tryingto start it and it was 11.5v..which, as I understand it , is what powers just the solonoid and should be enough for that? I did just go down to the shop and try to start it and interestingly, I discovered that the new battery was completely dead .no int lights or anything,so maybe there is a drain on it somwhere? I jumped to my truck..which has always worked before,but this time nada.. When i turned the key the voltage on the dash gauge did drop by about 4 v and I lasitened closely but I didn't hear any click so does that mean it;s most likely the solonoid(and not the starter itself?) As yousaid Dynomite, I find it odd that the starter would go out just whe the batery was changed(?)

Thanks again

Will figure it out eventualy , I'm sure

One more possibility.....if you continue to try to start the car with low battery voltage there is more of a chance of burning/arcing the solenoid points (solenoid has less magnetic field to engage with full force). Further, once solenoid points are closed there is greater possibility of burning/arcing those points with the starter amrature having not enough torque to rotate the flywheel.

Hot wire the purple with 12.7 volts (full charged battery) and see what happens.

As an aside......I always disconnect my battery negative terminal (terminal easiest to get at with 8mm flex open end ratchet) when I expect to not drive the Z for over a few days (say a week). Even when sitting for several months with battery disconnected, the engine fires right up after reconnecting the battery. The batteries just do NOT discharge significantly by themselves even over a several month period when disconnected.

This applies to my tractors, lawnmowers, ATVs, trucks, cars.....everything with a 12 volt battery. Obviously I have to reset those items where memory is lost by the battery disconnect which are very few (clock and radio selection). I used to mess around with Tenders but got tired of having to leave electricity on just for a tender. I am a minority in this regard on this Forum (actually prolly the only one) just so you know :D

[scottfab]

Security light does not flash, so I know it's not a VATS issue

Good, as long as you're not going by the past results. If so (once the
battery is back to full charge) try it again. We simply must make sure nothing has changed there else we'd end up chasing our tail.

I'm not sure if they tried jumping the purple wire to the +, but I will find out later today,and if not have them try that..I assume the key doesn;t need to be on for that, I think, as I said , they did measure the voltage in the purple wire while tryingto start it and it was 11.5v..which, as I understand it , is what powers just the solonoid and should be enough for that?

Yes, 11.5V is enough there on the PURPLE wire.
This is not the line that supplies the big current to the starter motor.

I did just go down to the shop and try to start it and interestingly, I discovered that the new battery was completely dead .no int lights or anything,so maybe there is a drain on it somwhere?

The easy places to look for current being sapped off is the glove compartment and the center console. I personally have had the center console do this. Regardless you need to find out what is
draining the battery. Disconnecting it each time you park it at night
is not an option and I strongly suggest this is a bad idea for several
reasons which I won't go into on this thread.
That would be inconsiderate. Do a search on this forum for "float charger" to find out more. To find what is drawing current at night
try this video. It's a bit long winded but accurate. What you need
is accurate info.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF1gijj03_0

I jumped to my truck..which has always worked before,but this time nada.. When i turned the key the voltage on the dash gauge did drop by about 4 v and

Really really not a good idea to jump start the car ever unless it is
an emergency and even then doing it properly will minimize burning
up the 80s vintage electronics !! You want to let the battery recover
up to a reasonable level first by running your truck 15 or so minutes
while connected to the battery of the Z. Better yet put it on a
charger for 30 min at least. FYI these are not deep cycle batteries.
Taking them down to being dead shortens their life considerably.
Also attempting to start the car with less than a fully charged battery
in no way arcs the contacts on relays or solenoids more than usual.
In fact it'd be less because the internal resistance of the battery is
higher.

I lasitened closely but I didn't hear any click so does that mean it;s most likely the solonoid(and not the starter itself?) As yousaid Dynomite, I find it odd that the starter would go out just whe the batery was changed(?)

Don't think with a dead battery any useful info can be acquired.


Thanks again

Will figure it out eventualy , I'm sure

Yes, we WILL get this. We're all here behind you.
At this point and from all I've seen on this tread you're
likely to need to pull the plenum (or someone will).
To prep for this I suggest reading up on how to do this.
Even if your mechanic does the work you can still be up
to speed. Here is a link
http://www.zr1netregistry.com/Information/TechNet/EngineDrivetrain/Engine/tabid/137/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/208/LT5-Plenum-Removal.aspx

[Dynomite]

As an aside......I always disconnect my battery negative terminal (terminal easiest to get at with 8mm flex open end ratchet) when I expect to not drive the Z for over a few days (say a week). Even when sitting for several months with battery disconnected, the engine fires right up after reconnecting the battery. The batteries just do NOT discharge significantly by themselves even over a several month period when disconnected.

This applies to my tractors, lawnmowers, ATVs, trucks, cars.....everything with a 12 volt battery. Obviously I have to reset those items where memory is lost by the battery disconnect which are very few (clock and radio selection). I used to mess around with Tenders but got tired of having to leave electricity on just for a tender. I am a minority in this regard on this Forum (actually prolly the only one) just so you know :D

I do this only when the Two Zs (LT5s) and 90' (L98), Tractor, lawnmowers, ATVs, trucks, cars are sitting for a week or so.

IN several years with doing this (three trucks including a Tacoma, two JD tractors, three Craftsman Lawnmowers, Two Yamaya ATVs, One Polaris ATV, several cars including a 90' Z, 91' Z, 90' L98) leaving battery disconnected for short and long periods of time in temperatures 70 deg to zero.....every single one has started right up when battery was reconnected :D

The only item I have to reset on the Z (LT5) and L98 was the radio selection :-D

Those are the FACTS and others can talk but without facts :sign10:

And it does NOT make any difference on which post I disconnect (on the Corvettes I disconnect the negative post since it is closest to my 8mm open end ratchet wrench) ;)

Also....it IS excellent practice to disconnect the battery when working on the engine as no one can disagree there except some maybe that disagree with ALL my posts :D

I do not disconnect the batteries on anything I might use within a week. I have had some tractors and Corvettes sit for two or even three weeks with battery connected occasionally without a starting issue. But in general I have always had problems with batteries connected for long periods of time and the worst thing you can do is let a battery discharge for long periods of time. So...in general this is what I do.

Oh....and I do my own modifications and maintenance on ALL vehicles with the ATVs and Corvettes heavily modified and ALL runing perfectly.

I will go out and hook up a battery with 11.5 volts and see if the Solenoid does its job and report back.....I have some of those batteries sitting on the shelf as I have to replace say a battery every 3 years having 15 vehicles with batteries.

Bottom line...you have an opportunity to try something I did not try when this happened to me.....connect 12.7 volts to the purple wire and main starter cable (assuming both cable ends have good contact with Starter).

[XfireZ51]

Cliff,

I have disconnected the negative terminal on my Vettes for years. Especially during the winter. I SPECULATE it may also help with retarding corrosion by eliminating electrolysis. Just a pain on the radio resets but who listens to the radio. The ECM does need to do a re-learn however but
not that big a deal.

[scottfab]

Looks like this tread is taking off onto "how to maintain your battery".
So.........
Here are some links on how most of us do this.
Again I do NOT recommend disconnecting the battery.
You end up unnecessarily zapping the electronics over and
over as you struggle to get the thread started in AND
read post #20 on this thread:
http://zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19918&highlight=float+charger
and of course as a complete diversion away from your
original problem here's a bunch more on float charges.
http://zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4141&highlight=float+charger

http://zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4741&highlight=float+charger

http://zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17396&highlight=float+charger

http://zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17951&highlight=float+charger

http://zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19745&highlight=float+charger

Good luck on your original problem. You have a new
battery in it so with a charge on it you should be good
to go in finding out why the starter does not spin up.
Look to my previous post for the link to a video on
how to find out what is discharging you new battery.

[Dynomite]

Cliff,

I have disconnected the negative terminal on my Vettes for years. Especially during the winter. I SPECULATE it may also help with retarding corrosion by eliminating electrolysis. Just a pain on the radio resets but who listens to the radio. The ECM does need to do a re-learn however but
not that big a deal.

If you want to have some fun reading your battery charge (digital) and coolant Temperature (digital) as you drive check out #5 of
Manual Supplement, Secondary Diagnostics, Sensors, Electronic Automatic AC (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp.html#post1580070557) Explains the Calculations :thumbsup:

a. Coolant Temperature.
Coolant Temperature - 16 indicating you are .............Coolant Temperature is 83 deg C or 181.4 deg F
at Coolant Temperature (Now Press Fan)
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite/eda160ce-3bf9-48d3-88c8-576148781726.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite/b1f0d8c8-438c-4a1e-9b5d-d3cb23dafc5e.jpg

b. Battery Charge.
A bit more complicated for Battery Charge...................Air is OFF in this case
Battery Charge - 05 (Now Press Fan)..........................197 indicating 14.408 volts
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite/aeb9d516-0b5d-4478-9577-411850c51a77.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite/88276635-9391-44d9-ad7d-9dcae6cbc084.jpg

Battery Charge - 05 (Now Press Fan)
at Battery Charge -105 indicating 13.742 volts
Air is ON in this case
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite/23478fae-2e8f-4318-a46f-b39d636da60e.jpg

[scottfab]

About half of the ZR-1s made are 1990.
The temp can be read out of the AC unit on a 90 but not
with parameter 12, it's 16.
That is hold the "Up" and "Down" arrows both in until
"00" shows then scroll up to number 16.
Now press the "fan" button.
The value there is deg C.

[Schrade]

GOOD info in that post (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp.html#post1580070557) Mr C; did I read more on other HVAC display parameters, in the FSM somewhere?

(or in '94 FSM :confused: )

Or is it in Owner's Manual? (just got OM from geezer; still reading) - THANKS Bill...............................

[Schrade]

Thanks guys..Was just down at the shop and they say they checked all of that (can the relay be checked without actually repplacing it?)and also checked that the (purple ?) wire going to the starter is getting 11.5 volts(is that enough?) so they have concluded it must be the starter. I'm jsut confused as to how it neve rgave me a problem before , cold or hot, but just stpped working after the battery change? Is that possible?

If YOU could charge the battery, and get the car started, and then NOW, with a new battery installed, the car won't crank, then the mechanic broke something (cooked a circuit).

I would FIRST get them to charge my original battery, get my $C-Bill+ for the new battery refunded, put it back in the original, and NOT have them see why the battery won't 'HOLD' a charge (find the parasitic draw) ...

Is the wrench hack a friend?


ed.:
And yes, a relay can be checked without replacement.

Test for continuity on MAIN input and output terminals of the relay. Should be open.

Apply 12V to the 'activator' / lower amperage INput; then ground the OUTput of the 'activator' / lower amperage side.

This should close the MAIN relay circuit, and show continuity.

Did they replace a relay without testing? If so, you should LEAVE.

[scottfab]

GOOD info in that post (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp.html#post1580070557) Mr C; did I read more on other HVAC display parameters, in the FSM somewhere?
.. snip...


Page 1C1-5 of the FSM.

[Schrade]

Page 1C1-5 of the FSM.

Thanks very much there scottfab!