Bad Alt. Codes 61 & 63.

[RICHARD TILL]

Pulled the plenum on 1990 #2161 today. On the last several outings at night i`ve noticed that every light on the car pulsated as if there was a voltage swing. Last week it completely quit charging and today i pulled the alt.. Bearings are surely too noisy. Its 120k bone stock except for the nice new 25 hp mercruiser tag on the map sensor. Also several times lately i`ve had the service light come on while running 65-70 mph for maybe 2-3 miles then go off. Sometimes it`ll sound as if it had a dead miss at idle and a little above then come to life. I have two codes, 61 & 63. My ST-364-90PSID manual says that the code 61 is secondary port throttle valve system and code 63 is right oxygen sensor circuit. Injectors are factory. I checked them today and every one of them checked 12.2-13.0 ohms. I don`t know but i hope that they can check good and still be bad. Could bad injectors cause the code 63? My plans are to get the alt. rebuilt at a shop that i trust and order a set of rebuilt fic injectors. Check the coils and wires. I unpluged the vacuum pump about 5 years ago because it ran too often while still leaving satisfactory performance. I`ll dig into that too. Any advise on those codes? I`m in unknown territory and this manual i have has all the info but sometimes its like looking for a needle in a haystack. Any words of advise from the experienced? Many Thanks in advance.

[We Gone]

Just a guess but the code 61 is secondary port throttle valve system may have something to do with the unpluged the vacuum pump. I'm sure someone who knows more than I do will offer up some good advice soon.

[SteelBlueZR1]

It is likely, based on personal experience, that your secondary solenoid is going bad and throwing a code 61. Does your car sometimes fall flat on its face when you get into the secondaries?

[XfireZ51]

Bone stock motor? How could you run full power w vacuum pump unplugged?

[Franke]

Richard, my 4 bad injectors read 12-13 ohms when cold but read anywhere from 6-8 ohms hot. The original injectors don't like ethanol fuel and started shorting out the coils somewhere around 50k miles or so. Replacing them will make a world of difference in performance and idle quality. Be sure to test the rebuilt injectors before you button everything up. You also need to find the vaccumn leak in your engine so that the pump doesn't run so often. It could be the cause of the 61 code. As Xfire says how can you run full power without secondaries vaccumn?

[Schrade]

What's the operating voltage on the right O2?

If over 1/2 volt cosistently, your burning rich, and cats will foul soon.

Isn't 13V inj impedance a borderline reading? Poor spray quality could be indicated...

[Paul Workman]

What's the operating voltage on the right O2?

If over 1/2 volt cosistently, your burning rich, and cats will foul soon.

Isn't 13V inj impedance a borderline reading? Poor spray quality could be indicated...

No. 12-13Ω across HOT injectors is normal (always test them HOT). At 11.0 Ω and less it indicates trouble with the solenoid windings w/in the injector coils, and as resistance decreases, so does the injector function until if fails completely.

AND, BTW, it is possible to burn a valve if one or more injectors become marginal. If an injector failure is severe enough, the cylinder won't fire. The worst case scenario is an injector that has not reached that level and simply leans that cylinder out waaay to lean, resulting in a burnt valve. (BTDT x2)

The spray pattern would be more a function of the tip being contaminated with carbon or dirt. But, I don't think that wouldn't foretold by the resistance, per se'

P.

[RICHARD TILL]

I thank all of you who have responded. Haven`t had a chance to work on the car the last couple of days but i do have the alt. rebuilt. It got new bearings, brushes, regulator and a rectifier. The charge was $80. After unhooking the vacuum pump it didn`t fall on its face in the full power mode. It did have a small dead spot. Hopefully tomorrow i`ll get the chance to identify and check the secondary system and reinstall the alt. Its a slow go for me in this unfamiliar territory. I do have a few mechanical skills as i have built and run a 10 second dragboat with a big block chevy with two 1050`s. Its all old school except for the msd ignition. Am definately getting new injectors but haven`t decided on new or rebuilt. I`ll post again when i have more news. Thanks again and i`m still all ears.

[RICHARD TILL]

A couple of questions just popped into my feeble mind. I`m exposing my ignorance. Evidently injectors are rated in pounds. Is that a rateing of pounds of fuel per hour delivered at a given pressure? Whats the stock rating? Should i specify a flow pattern? What are the questions i should ask to get the maximum benefit? Would i be better off by having my injectors rebuilt instead of buying different ones?

[Schrade]

Jon Banner FIC Injectors used to be the go-to guy for C4 injectors - as far as I know he still is.

Has logged lots of hours on other vette boards, including injector vid stickies which I suggested he start posting in '08.

[Schrade]

Deleted for new thread (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=177799#post177799)

[RICHARD TILL]

Ordered rebuilt injectors from fic a few minutes ago. At present i`ve hid the map sensor from myself and have about given up on finding it. Injector folks said that i`d be getting rebuilt 22 lb. bosch, would flow match and get them out the door.

[tomtom72]

A couple of questions just popped into my feeble mind. I`m exposing my ignorance. Evidently injectors are rated in pounds. Is that a rateing of pounds of fuel per hour delivered at a given pressure? Whats the stock rating? Should i specify a flow pattern? What are the questions i should ask to get the maximum benefit? Would i be better off by having my injectors rebuilt instead of buying different ones?

Hi Rich, there used to be some vids over in the C4 section at CF.com. You could get a good eye on the various spray patterns. If I remember right, that's questionable as I'm senile LOL, the stock ones had a hibred pattern something like a bit of a pencil beam and a semi-fog spray; the new Lucas based were for sure a pencil beam pattern; and FIC's rebuilt ones ( I forgot what brand they were based on ) were a fan pattern with a nice terminal fog. The most shocking thing in most of the vids is at what fuel PSI the new multechs locked up at. It was fairly close to the max PSI of an LT5's system PSI. Even before lock up they had troubled spray patterns. The FIC lucas & Bosch based replacements had no issues till they were past 60 or so PSI. Our max rail PSI is 55.

I think ours are about 22lbs/Hr (?), and the commonly used Lucas based replacements are like 25 lbs/Hr (?) I may have that backwards.....but that isn't an issue as both RC and FIC makes sure the injectors are more than a match for an LT5 even after the usual mods have been done. So there is more than enough reliable flow potential.

The only bump in the road is that when my OEM ones failed back in '05 the thinking then was do not try to rebuild the OEM units. Also, do not buy GM's replacement parts for M/Yr 90 as they are still not resistant to Methanol till this day ( back in '05 ).

One last thought. Back in '05 for plug & play the choices were GM or RC. I went with RC due to my noobness with EFI motors. People were using Accel's, you had to modify the terminal on the injector(?), and they were cheaper that the RC's. FIC didn't exist back then, I think? Now I think there are even more choices than RC, FIC & Accel? Oh, just consider the subtle differences between a new part, a rebuilt part, and a reman'ed part. No knock on FIC! They did have some failures with the rebuilt line. There have been none I've seen with FIC's new Lucas based units.

:cheers:
Tom

[RICHARD TILL]

Hello Tom. I finally got the fic rebuilt Bosh injectors installed. Now it sounds as if i have a dead miss on one cylinder. I checked and rechecked myself before replacing the plenum. No backfireing or any other noises. Won`t even come alive in the full power mode. I buy and sell a few used cars to make extra money. Right now i have an 03 Focus in the Vette`s stall for a transmission rebuild. Late next week the plenum will be pulled for another visual inspection after first reading the plugs. Hopefully i looked but did not see. My first hope would be a crossed plugwire. Wouldn`t be the first mistake i ever made. I didn`t check these injectors in any way before installation. Didn`t check the ohms and didn`t know how to check for a spray pattern. That was another real smart move. So far this has been a real dissapointment but i WILL get this thing fixed.

[tomtom72]

Hi Rich!
Okay, my first stupid question to you would be : You did clear the DTC 's ? If not the secondaries will be locked out by the ECM as part of the self preservation programing. Any DTC that relates to the emissions equipment and any that relate to the motor functions ( like a cam sensor, crank sensor, TPS, DIS failure, secondary solenoid, secondary MAP, primary MAP, etc ) will lock out the secondaries.

Second stupid question: dead miss is evident at idle in open loop; or do you have to wait for closed loop operation?

3rd stupid Q : the miss, did it generate another SES light? Even a winking SES could be stored in the CCM as a "History" DTC.

If you crossed a plug wire then you would have two cylinders down....just saying buddy, does it sound like it could be two cylinders?

Okay, I'm not much help so I will go get the FSM and start reading and if I come up with anything I'll post up. :o

:cheers:
Tom

[We Gone]

Dead miss, have you pulled the plug wires to find out what plug (if any) it is? May be a bad plug, wire or coil pack.

[tomtom72]

No, I didn't even get to the FSM reading yet! But I did remember two items off the top of my feeble head! LOL

One member had an issue with a dead miss, one cylinder only, after doing an injector swap. After much work he discovered he had pinched one wire in one side of the injector harness. The wire's insulation got cut and shorted out & it's injector got no command to fire.

The other incident with your symptoms also turned out to be wiring, one injector plug was not clipped on.

:cheers:
Tom

[RICHARD TILL]

I haven`t done any troubleshooting at all. The miss is evident at cold start. I didn`t clear any codes. Battery cables were loose for several days. Would the codes not clear themselves? Could be a pinched wire but i doubt it. They`re wrapped real well with that black plastic. When i drove the car today the service engine light did come on. Today i`ll check to see what that code is and post the results tonight. Had a 61 & 63 before i worked on it and wasn`t running all that bad. Lots better than it is now. Thanks for the replies and ideas. Keep em coming. I`m all ears.

[RICHARD TILL]

Checked for codes this afternoon and still have 61 and 63. My vacuum pump is rusted on the inside and i didn`t address the code 63. I`ll be shopping for a new pump.

[XfireZ51]

Checked for codes this afternoon and still have 61 and 63. My vacuum pump is rusted on the inside and i didn`t address the code 63. I`ll be shopping for a new pump.

I have one on my 92 that works and isn't used.

[RICHARD TILL]

I`d surely be interested in that pump. How much shipped to 38852 Mississippi?

[RICHARD TILL]

Today i pulled the plenum again. I`m getting good at it since its my 4th time since i`ve owned the car. Twice in 1999 for a starter problem and twice recently. I installed the vacuum pump that i got from Dominic. It works well. I hot wired the vacuum pump with an on/off switch and ran about 5 ft of hose from it to do troubleshooting on the secondaries. All is well except the secondary port throttle selenoid. Anyone have one or know where i could get something similar that would work in its place? Evidently it was bad when i bought the car in 98. I still don`t have much of a clue as to why i had a dead miss. I started the engine and removed the plug wires one at a time. No. 1 is the problem. No. 6 on the same coil fired strong. I stuck a plug in the boot and it would just barely spark when grounded. The plug wire is good. I measured the resistance on the primary sides of every coil and all were about the same with .5-.7 ohms. Thats the only measurement i could get. No reading from any terminal to ground, between the towers or from the primary to the towers. I have another coil that i`ll put in its place when i reinstall. The only hint i got was when i pulled the plate assembly with the coils the plug with four pins came off by itself. Maybe i didn`t have it locked on but i thought i checked and rechecked. Hopefully thats what happened. I pray that it was. I didn`t get a ses light when it was running poorly. Service engine soon light only. Codes 61 and 63. My service manual is begining to look used. As for my code 63, i pulled the right side O2 sesnor and it measured the same as the left. It took me forever to get to the plug. Whoever designed the spot for the cdm box must have been the same knucklehead who placed the plug in such a tight spot. I removed the right side motor mount frame brace, both motor mount nuts and jacked the motor up a little. I traded sides with the sensors to see if the code followed. I guess time will tell. I don`t have the $$$ to just throw parts at this thing but don`t mind buying whats proved to be wrong. Again, thanks to all who have replied with advise and if anyone has a seleniod, i`m at your mercy. Richard

[tomtom72]

I may be wrong but I think Jerry has them???? Or maybe it Kurt White??? I also seem to remember that one of the Kodiac's (?) use the same solenoid for a vacuum boost system...maybe Marc H knows?

:o Sorry that's all I got Richard.

:cheers:
Tom

[scottfab]

Wow, lots going on here in one thread. It gets messy but lets see....

Today i pulled the plenum again. I`m getting good at it since its my 4th time since i`ve owned the car. Twice in 1999 for a starter problem and twice recently.

So you're half way to the "10" club then. I've pulled mine 10 times in 16yrs. Eight of those in the first year and then 2 in 03.

I installed the vacuum pump that i got from Dominic. It works well. I hot wired the vacuum pump with an on/off switch and ran about 5 ft of hose from it to do troubleshooting on the secondaries. All is well except the secondary port throttle selenoid. Anyone have one or know where i could get something similar that would work in its place? Evidently it was bad when i bought the car in 98.

More than one of us has been able to take it apart, clean it, re-seat the needle and rework the spring (I lengthened mine by pulling it apart a bit). This helps keep it from leaking. Then put it back together with model plan glue.

I still don`t have much of a clue as to why i had a dead miss. I started the engine and removed the plug wires one at a time. No. 1 is the problem. No. 6 on the same coil fired strong. I stuck a plug in the boot and it would just barely spark when grounded.

you could have had that wire firing through the insulation to a ground.
The manual calls this "spark plug wire leakage"

The plug wire is good.

What did you measure? Should be about 30k ohms

I measured the resistance on the primary sides of every coil and all were about the same with .5-.7 ohms. Thats the only measurement i could get. No reading from any terminal to ground, between the towers or from the primary to the towers. I have another coil that i`ll put in its place when i reinstall. The only hint i got was when i pulled the plate assembly with the coils the plug with four pins came off by itself. Maybe i didn`t have it locked on but i thought i checked and rechecked. Hopefully thats what happened. I pray that it was.

Did you measure from 1 to 6. Since this is a waste spark design that gives you the coil's secondary winding resistance. That can be compared to the other three coils.

[QUOTE=RICHARD TILL;181118] I didn`t get a ses light when it was running poorly. Service engine soon light only. Codes 61 and 63. My service manual is begining to look used.

you should see mine.:p

As for my code 63, i pulled the right side O2 sesnor and it measured the same as the left.

It's not often that O2 sensors fail in a way that measuring the resistance will tell you anything. Most common failure is contamination that coats the sensor element. Then they are slow to respond or don't at all.

It took me forever to get to the plug. Whoever designed the spot for the cdm box must have been the same knucklehead who placed the plug in such a tight spot. I removed the right side motor mount frame brace, both motor mount nuts and jacked the motor up a little. I traded sides with the sensors to see if the code followed. I guess time will tell. I don`t have the $$$ to just throw parts at this thing but don`t mind buying whats proved to be wrong. Again, thanks to all who have replied with advise and if anyone has a seleniod, i`m at your mercy. Richard

Same thing I've done but the lead length on one is much shorter unless a long lead was used on both (not stock)

[XfireZ51]

Rich,

I'm pretty sure I have a solenoid for the secondaries. Too bad, I could have sent it along w the pump.
BTW, just went thru the O2 sensor swap. Left side went Code 44. So I swapped sides and got a Code 64. This would happen at idle
only. Cruise was ok altho I will be checking to see if the new O2 makes a diff in the tune.

[RICHARD TILL]

Today i remounted the coil assembly. I used a known good used coil for no. 1&6 cylinders. If it works i`ll get new MSD`s. Already priced them from Summit. Tom, I`ll check on those sources. This is sorta like looking for a needle in a haystack. Thanks. Scott, I tried two different plug wires when testing for spark. A full time mechanic told me today that it was possible for the coil to go bad on one side only. We`ll see. I didn`t get a measurement at all between the towers on 7 different coils. 4 weak coils? Gotta find a coil schematic somewhere. The leads on both my sensors are the same exact length. Made a mark on 1 of them not to get them mixed up. Both mine had 2 whites and 1 black lead. Thats not how my service manual described them. Its a 1 owner car from Birmingham. Bought it in 98 from a salvage dealer who had bought it at a sale. Had 88k miles and salvage title. Owner no. 1 was going down I-65, hydroplaned and left rear hit concrete retaining wall between the lanes. Broke the left rear quarter, shattered the rear glass, ruined the bumper cover and pushed the left rear wheel forward about 2 inches. My brother repaired it and did an excellent job. Until now the only $$$ i`ve spent is for a starter, gas, oil, tires and radio repair. Guess i`ve been lucky. You gentlemen keep the advise coming. I really value the voices of experience. And i nearly forgot. Keep your eyes open for a solenoid. I think i spelled it right this time. Thanks much, Richard

[scottfab]

....snip....
Scott, I tried two different plug wires when testing for spark. A full time mechanic told me today that it was possible for the coil to go bad on one side only. We`ll see. I didn`t get a measurement at all between the towers on 7 different coils. 4 weak coils?
....snip....


Yes, I have also seen a coil fail on one side. I suspect they are arcing internally on just the one side.
As far as measuring them on the secondary side you should see 5k to 6.5k from post to post and 0.32 - 0.42 ohms on the primary. (stock coil)
I find it hard to believe all your coils are bad. Not impossible just saying..

[tf95ZR1]

All is well except the secondary port throttle selenoid. Anyone have one or know where i could get something similar that would work in its place?

I have no idea of the application or quality, but....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Corvette-LT5-ZR-1-Secondary-Port-Throttle-Solenoid-Valve-/111138867154?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item19e06487d2&vxp=mtr

or

http://jerrysgaskets.com/store2/root/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=8&products_id=409

I started the engine and removed the plug wires one at a time. No. 1 is the problem.

Maybe dumb and simple, but have you tried a different spark plug? Check the gap, boot clip, or put dielectric grease on it?