The Dreaded No Start

[gbmidyear66]

Took my son to his roller hockey game today. Came out after the game and its dead as a doornail. No solenoid click - nothing. Wiggled the clutch switch with my fingers - still nothing. Had the wife pick us up, we all went to a movie. Came back to get a tow truck to get me out of my parking space - and it fires right up!

I am guessing a flakey clutch safety switch, or maybe my sweaty hands on the ignition key resistors confused the VATS. So I'm looking for a clutch switch - and supposedly the part number is D2212A or 10045822. I can find photo's of these online - though they are not readily available.

I pulled of the hush panel off to take a look - and now I am quite confused .... the switch I have in there looks nothing like either of the apparently correct switches. I took a photo of what I have (see attached). Can anyone set me straight? Do I have a substitute in already - or are the above part numbers incorrect).

Thanks

Glenn

[WVZR-1]

I'd say the first check since it does crank and run now, with-out disturbing anything check to see what in the past 22+ years has been by-passed. Take the car to the "wide-open" spaces and see if the clutch switch has been by-passed. Will it crank in gear with-out the clutch pedal depressed?

Use some contact cleaner on the ignition cylinder. Do you have a second newer key? I don't know that I'd go looking for trouble first. A snapshot like you've supplied isn't like putting "eyes on" the same view.

The "blue wire" indicates that what you've taken snapshots of is brake switch related. Where does the heavier purple wire go? Your part # for the switch is correct, they're getting harder to find.

[sdickens]

That exact same thing happened to me once. I thought it was my clutch switch as well as I had that go out on another Vette years ago.

The problem went a way a few minutes later. I tested it and I am able to start my car in gear without pressing the clutch, so my clutch switch has been by-passed. Never did figure out what that issue was and it did not happen again.

[scottfab]

Did you happen to notice if the "Security" light on the left of the tach was flashing? If so it was the VATs. It may not have read the key pellet right.
A 4min wait is needed if the Security light is flashing before try to start again.

[Tyler Townsley]

Take the car to the "wide-open" spaces and see if the clutch switch has been by-passed. Will it crank in gear with-out the clutch pedal depressed?

Just put in neutral and see if it will start without depressing the start switch.

Tyler

[LGAFF]

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=20411&page=2

[LGAFF]

Follow the yellow and purple wires in the photo.....the white switch is to turn off cruise control when clutch is depressed

http://www.zr1.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2497&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1370836899 (http://www.zr1.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2497&d=1370836899)

[gbmidyear66]

Guys, thanks a lot for your inputs.

Lee - your photo's on your post (#13) shows that your 90 has the exact same clutch switch as my car - which is really weird because that switch is not what is shown in the 1990 FSM (page 7C-10 Figure 9 - which shows the D2213A). It looks to me like the 90 had multiple configurations for the clutch switch ? Can anybody shed any light on this?

My car does NOT have the clutch switch bypassed. But I am going to splice into the switch side of the wiring and add a toggle switch in parallel as a "backup".

In my case - I am thinking my problem was more likely a VATS/Key issue - as I do not recall hearing the fuel pump run when I turned the key - just dead silence.

I'm going to clean the key and the ignition cylinder. If I have the problem again, I will 1) look closely for "security" indicator, and 2) check for change on voltmeter when key is turned and I operate clutch - this should help me narrow it down.

It is a real frustration when this happens, didn't drive the car to work today because I had appointments I had to be on time for - hate not being able to rely on it starting.....

[LGAFF]

The car also has a starter relay on it.....

[gbmidyear66]

Lee, I wished you'd posted 10 minutes earlier....

I guess I'm officially a dumb***, I see a switch operated by the clutch pedal and assume its the safety switch - wrong. Yup, there it is on FSM 9B-3, cruise control release switch.

Guess I will just clean the key and the ignition cylinder and be more observant of the presence of "Security" indicator and movement of voltmeter to narrow mine down if (when) it happens again.

Any luck with your's Lee?

[WVZR-1]

Just put in neutral and see if it will start without depressing the start switch.

Tyler

Tyler you of course are correct but some/most will do it as directed and also get a short education of WHY it's there, for the several years I've posted it that way and for the reason I stated only two have commented about it, yourself and a very good friend from the service who is a professional truck driver. My comment isn't/wasn't intended for only the C4 Corvette but anything with the clutch operated safety switch. The quick surge forward or rearward if done "my way" and if it doesn't start is very educational, VERY! Most mowing machines come to mind for PTO safety when I think of clutch safety devices and many PTO's are bypassed also.

[scottfab]

....snip...
Guess I will just clean the key and the ignition cylinder and be more observant of the presence of "Security" indicator and movement of voltmeter to narrow mine down if (when) it happens again.
....snip...

I'd suggest also having a "plan B" should it not be VATs related. Perhaps carry a short single wire jumper wire to go from the POS bat to the famous "purple" wire. This eliminates much and would help isolate.
Look at the next "no start" as an opportunity to isolate and find the root cause.

Here are a few links for more background on "No Start" things:
http://www.zr1netregistry.com/Information/TechNet/%5BAllArticles%5D/tabid/262/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/112/ZR-1-No-Start-issue.aspx

http://www.zr1netregistry.com/Information/TechNet/%5BAllArticles%5D/tabid/262/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/68/No-Start-Engine-Wont-Crank.aspx

[tccrab]

Some would argue that my patented "Dreaded No Start Cure" is a last ditch problem solver, others would argue that this what should have been done by GM.
Whatever you call it, it has been proven to work.
One relay, some wire and a little time.
Problem solved.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/tccrab/StarterRelayMod.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/user/tccrab/media/StarterRelayMod.jpg.html)

'Crabs

[JThomas]

I had a similar issue with my '92 ZR-1, three years ago. When the car got hot (Up to temperature) and I parked it, it would not start again, right away. If it sat for a while, long enough to reelly cool down, it would start again. We ended up replacing the starter and all was well.

[Dynomite]

Some would argue that my patented "Dreaded No Start Cure" is a last ditch problem solver, others would argue that this what should have been done by GM.
Whatever you call it, it has been proven to work.
One relay, some wire and a little time.
Problem solved.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/tccrab/StarterRelayMod.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/user/tccrab/media/StarterRelayMod.jpg.html)

'Crabs

No arguments regarding your No Start Relay :thumbsup:
I installed your Relay, Differential Drain plug, Eliminated TB Coolant and Air Induction, and Added Belt Tensioner Billet Aluminum Pulley as standard corrective measures to what GM started on both a 90' and 91' ZR1 ;)

Thanks Crabs :handshak:

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Some would argue that my patented "Dreaded No Start Cure" is a last ditch problem solver, others would argue that this what should have been done by GM.
Whatever you call it, it has been proven to work.
One relay, some wire and a little time.
Problem solved.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i159/tccrab/StarterRelayMod.jpg (http://s71.photobucket.com/user/tccrab/media/StarterRelayMod.jpg.html)

'Crabs


Nice input, Tom :cheers:

[tccrab]

Nice input, Tom :cheers:

Thanks Brett, I sincerely appreciate it.
Coming from a guy like you with your skills, this is high praise indeed.
I am so not worthy.
You too, Dynomite. You guys are great.
:cheers:
TomC
a.k.a., Crabs

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Thanks Brett, I sincerely appreciate it.
Coming from a guy like you with your skills, this is high praise indeed.
I am so not worthy.
You too, Dynomite. You guys are great.
:cheers:
TomC
a.k.a., Crabs


Obviously, you've never seen me with a schematic. LOL Ask Tyler....

You do great work, tom. :handshak:

[ghlkal]

Just FYI,

I thought I was having a clutch switch problem also. When I searched at some of the big parts houses, eg gmpartsdirect, their online catalog showed the switch in stock. I can't verify that as I didn't order one.

They may still be available if someone needs one.

Of course, you can find used ones too (eg, corvettenutz, etc)

[Bearly Flying]

I have recently began having problems with my 91 not starting, altho in my case it seems to be when the engine is cold , it won't start, once the engine is warm, it will start.
Battery tested out OK, I had another battery approx 1 year old I switched into the car, No difference.
When I turn the key, I can hear what I believe is the starter solenoid click with the clutch depressed. If I let the clutch out part way, there is nothing, no clicks from the solenoid. So I believe the clutch switch is working properly.
The security light does not come on while trying to start the car. So the VAT system shouldn't be at fault.
After repeated attempts at hitting the starter, it will engage enough to slightly rock the engine, a couple more cycles of the key and it will generally start normally.
I suspect it may be the contacts in the starter itself are arc'ed, but I thought I would check with the Experts to get your thoughts before diving into that Plenum for my first time.

[Dynomite]

I have recently began having problems with my 91 not starting, altho in my case it seems to be when the engine is cold , it won't start, once the engine is warm, it will start.
Battery tested out OK, I had another battery approx 1 year old I switched into the car, No difference.
When I turn the key, I can hear what I believe is the starter solenoid click with the clutch depressed. If I let the clutch out part way, there is nothing, no clicks from the solenoid. So I believe the clutch switch is working properly.
The security light does not come on while trying to start the car. So the VAT system shouldn't be at fault.
After repeated attempts at hitting the starter, it will engage enough to slightly rock the engine, a couple more cycles of the key and it will generally start normally.
I suspect it may be the contacts in the starter itself are arc'ed, but I thought I would check with the Experts to get your thoughts before diving into that Plenum for my first time.


In that regard ;)

1. Starter Contacts.
I had a NO START condition on this 90' and after I towed it for a start....got home and it fired right up. I would have liked to hot wire the starter (purple wire) when that happens to see if it is the starter or starter ground circuit. Or check that purple wire for 12 volts when I turn the switch to start. I lean toward ground circuit or sticky starter solenoid. Another indication would be if when you turn the ignition key to start do the lights dim for example indicating a current draw to the starter solenoid/starter.

If the solenoid does not move (no clicking indicating the Starter Solenoid moved) as in my case then a sticky Solenoid or Solenoid Ground Connection. If the Solenoid clicked/moved...then bad Solenoid contacts or bad connection Battery cable (Positive) to starter/battery or bad ground (Negative) engine to battery.

Installed a relay in the start circuit of the 90' identical to what I have on the 91'. This is one of those intermittent issues and does sound like poor electrical connections in either the Starter Negative Connections or Starter Positive Connections.
Starter Relay, Wiring Harness, Battery, and Plugs Tricks (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-3.html#post1581564085)

The Starter Solenoid is shown in the left photo with slight burnt contacts in right photo.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/bac49725-6086-4f07-a929-9f1f498e4d50.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/Maintenance%20ZR1/bac49725-6086-4f07-a929-9f1f498e4d50.jpg.html)http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/e8886408-e5b8-40d3-a5d2-199e22f85e0a.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/Maintenance%20ZR1/e8886408-e5b8-40d3-a5d2-199e22f85e0a.jpg.html)

The Solenoid contacts in left photo were wire brushed clean in right photo.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/95a2d94c-6e14-4206-ab39-e157c17fc6a2.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/Maintenance%20ZR1/95a2d94c-6e14-4206-ab39-e157c17fc6a2.jpg.html)http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/e6b04516-3ebb-49ab-9f32-1da552901435.jpg

Complete Starter Disassembly.
Photo provided by mgbrv8 Complete starter rebuild by mgbrv8 (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=165565) (Dave)
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/e1e09df6-311e-4048-a50f-65ec8a45ee43.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/Maintenance%20ZR1/e1e09df6-311e-4048-a50f-65ec8a45ee43.jpg.html)

[Bearly Flying]

The Starter clicks every time I turn the key, and the lights on the radio, center panel will go out momentarily and the Radio aerial will cycle. So it appears to be drawing power to the starter

[scottfab]

The Starter clicks every time I turn the key, and the lights on the radio, center panel will go out momentarily and the Radio aerial will cycle. So it appears to be drawing power to the starter

You need to make sure the battery is not "soft" or that the ground from the battery to the car is not rusted. If these are ok then look to the starter.
One thing to do is measure the voltage right at the battery posts (not the connector but right on the battery) when the key is turned.

[Bearly Flying]

Scott; When I connected to the battery posts it was showing 12.5 volts.
Turn the key to the ON position, voltage dropped to 12.1
Turn the key to the START position, voltage drops to 11.8
Solenoid clicked but didn't engage.

[scottfab]

Scott; When I connected to the battery posts it was showing 12.5 volts.
Turn the key to the ON position, voltage dropped to 12.1
Turn the key to the START position, voltage drops to 11.8
Solenoid clicked but didn't engage.

Battery seem ok, you're right.
Still a toss up then between clutch switch and starter.
Try depressing the clutch several times when cold and before engaging the starter. Hold the peddle all the way down and still. If that helps then bypass the clutch switch (temporarily) by jumpering around it. I say that because you don't want to have to pull the starter until your sure that's it.

[ZR1North]

Like others, I chased this problem for some time. I reluctantly installed the relay modification to provide 12V directly to the starter, but it did not solve the problem long term (still intermittent no starts when hot). I just had Marc replace the starter which I believe is the only real solution to the "dreaded no start" (provided the clutch switch and starter enabler relay are functioning).

[Bearly Flying]

ZR1North; That's kinda my problem except Mine will start when it's hot, won't start when it has been sitting..

Scott; I will try pumping the clutch.

Thanks for your help on this.

[ZR1North]

ZR1North; That's kinda my problem except Mine will start when it's hot, won't start when it has been sitting..

Scott; I will try pumping the clutch.

Thanks for your help on this.

That is a bit odd for the dreaded no-start issue, BF. The starter problem will manifest itself even after the car has been shut down for a while since it is subject to heat soak, but I assume your reference to "sitting" is to do with a very long shut down or overnight situation. If so, I agree that you probably have other or additional issues than just the starter. Others have identified the likely culprits. Good luck!

[Bearly Flying]

Scott; Tried pumping the clutch as you suggested. No luck.

[scottfab]

Scott; Tried pumping the clutch as you suggested. No luck.

Time to test by a jumper around the clutch swithc but it's looking like starter :(

[Bearly Flying]

Pulled the Plenum, finally got the starter out.
The positive contact inside the starter solenoid is chewed up pretty bad, the contact area has been chewed down from the original thickness of 1/8 inch to around 1/32". Going to try and find a replacement.
The negative post shows some wear, but could still clean it up.

A couple other items found on the way into the starter. It appears the vacuum actuators for the secondaries were install upside down, the arm of the actuator was running at an angle to the bellcranks on both cannisters.

Tested all my fuel injectors, found one bad primary, 6.2 ohms, the rest all came in at 12.3 to 12.6. They were the original injectors, according to the part numbers on them. Ordered new injectors.

[WVZR-1]

A couple other items found on the way into the starter. It appears the vacuum actuators for the secondaries were install upside down, the arm of the actuator was running at an angle to the bellcranks on both cannisters.



Do NOT just change the orientation of the actuators without considerable thought. The "backwards" has been discussed/debated for years and I'd think most would agree "NOW" that you don't mess with what you've got. I've read that actually they could be installed in either direction in production, it wasn't the result of some "nitwit" as some claimed and once installed you need to consider the diaphragm is going to take a "set" so to speak and tampering with it would/could likely lead to failure or problems.

Those actuators have done it "their way" for 22+ years and you want to "retrain" them. Never!

[Paul Workman]

I have recently began having problems with my 91 not starting, altho in my case it seems to be when the engine is cold , it won't start, once the engine is warm, it will start.
Battery tested out OK, I had another battery approx 1 year old I switched into the car, No difference.
When I turn the key, I can hear what I believe is the starter solenoid click with the clutch depressed. If I let the clutch out part way, there is nothing, no clicks from the solenoid. So I believe the clutch switch is working properly.
The security light does not come on while trying to start the car. So the VAT system shouldn't be at fault.
After repeated attempts at hitting the starter, it will engage enough to slightly rock the engine, a couple more cycles of the key and it will generally start normally.
I suspect it may be the contacts in the starter itself are arc'ed, but I thought I would check with the Experts to get your thoughts before diving into that Plenum for my first time.

I agree with you...sounds like the contacts on the solenoid could be at issue - maybe.** I bought a starter rebuild kit off of ebay for around $35, but the push pin that came with the replacement armature (that pushes the starter gear to engage the ring gear on the flywheel) was about 5 mm shorter than the OEM. Had I used it, only half of the starter gear would be engaged...Not so good. So, I opted to R&R that copper ring with some emery cloth to remove the carbon and pitting. Good as new - still working fine some 4 years later!

Later, I ran across the new contact posts at NAPA for around $6 for the pair. New posts and some emery cloth and you're good to go.


Scottfab pointed out once, and rightfully so, that to prevent arching the contacts in the clutch interlock switch, resulting eventually in the switch failure, always engage the clutch fully before turning the ignition switch i.e., never turn the switch and then press the clutch to the floor or there the switch contacts will arc in the process: also not good.

** If the problem is definitely heat-related, that is indicative of an issue with the stator windings; either in the solenoid itself, or within the starter. "Stops working when it gets hot" is a classic, I mean CLASSIC winding issue; beit motor, ignition coils, injectors...anything with windings.

P.

[scottfab]

...snip...

A couple other items found on the way into the starter. It appears the vacuum actuators for the secondaries were install upside down, the arm of the actuator was running at an angle to the bellcranks on both cannisters.

....snip.....

I found mine to be backward also. That was in 98. I turned them around and have had no issue with binding after having done so. The risk you run when that angle is not straight is binding. Binding can cause one side to engage well before the other. The result is a less dramatic WOT effect.
It is also my opinion that you'll eventually get leaks in the diaphragm of the actuator if you don't turn them.

[WVZR-1]

I found mine to be backward also. That was in 98. I turned them around and have had no issue with binding after having done so. The risk you run when that angle is not straight is binding. Binding can cause one side to engage well before the other. The result is a less dramatic WOT effect.
It is also my opinion that you'll eventually get leaks in the diaphragm of the actuator if you don't turn them.

I believe it was documented by maybe Jerry that just the opposite is the case, I don't recall if it was on the @listserve or CF but I believe PW was a "proponent" at one time for reversing them and I notice he made "no mention" a couple hours ago. I don't believe he would have overlooked the opportunity.

Where's Jerry?

[Bearly Flying]

It definitely flexes the diaphragm when it operates, the sideways pull causes the arm to move across the face of the canister putting quite a bit of stress on the diaphragm.

WZZR-1, Thanks for the heads up, but I think I prefer a straight pull on the actuator. I will PM Jerry and get his thoughts, I see He has the actuators on his site, if necessary I will get a couple new ones thrown in with the injector order.

Paul; I Googled replacement contacts for the starter, it appears Nippon Denso is well known for burning up the contacts, there were lots of Suppliers. Hopefully my local NAPA can get them.

[WVZR-1]

It definitely flexes the diaphragm when it operates, the sideways pull causes the arm to move across the face of the canister putting quite a bit of stress on the diaphragm.

WZZR-1, Thanks for the heads up, but I think I prefer a straight pull on the actuator. I will PM Jerry and get his thoughts, I see He has the actuators on his site, if necessary I will get a couple new ones thrown in with the injector order.

Paul; I Googled replacement contacts for the starter, it appears Nippon Denso is well known for burning up the contacts, there were lots of Suppliers. Hopefully my local NAPA can get them.

If you've an electrical shop that does their own rebuilds I'd remove mine and either let them do a quick check or at least buy their parts using all of your own as samples and their knowledge of the 'denso starter that's on nearly everything to make a choice of the proper parts to use for the replacement. There are choices - many. It's a starter motor that they see very often. Most Toyota dealers will have the stuff on the shelf also.

[scottfab]

I believe it was documented by maybe Jerry that just the opposite is the case, I don't recall if it was on the @listserve or CF but I believe PW was a "proponent" at one time for reversing them and I notice he made "no mention" a couple hours ago. I don't believe he would have overlooked the opportunity.

Where's Jerry?

I'd be interesting in hearing from anyone that thinks binding prevention is enhanced by having the actuators installed in anything but at straight angle.

[WVZR-1]

I'd be interesting in hearing from anyone that thinks binding prevention is enhanced by having the actuators installed in anything but at straight angle.

Here's a rather recent comment but not the one I recall, mentions the same things though!

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1582935484-post12.html

[Jagdpanzer]

Jerry's previous post is correct. When this topic was going around a while back I gave a set of NOS heads I have a thurough look over up on the bench. Tried the actuator positioned both ways. Installed straight it would bind the linkage and not fully open the secondaries when vacuum was applaid. Installed the other way with an angle the linkage ran smooth fully opening the secondaries.

[scottfab]

Jerry's previous post is correct. When this topic was going around a while back I gave a set of NOS heads I have a thurough look over up on the bench. Tried the actuator positioned both ways. Installed straight it would bind the linkage and not fully open the secondaries when vacuum was applaid. Installed the other way with an angle the linkage ran smooth fully opening the secondaries.

That was not my experience . Given enough vacuum it would power it's way open. But turned such that the angle was straight and even a moderate vacuum could open it. It's one of those things that can lead to an unreliable and problematic secondary system. It's a given that there are a lot of aspects to the secondary system that can fail. Removing root cause issues is imperative to lowering the probability of an unsatisfactory WOT experience. This is but one.

[scottfab]

Here's a rather recent comment but not the one I recall, mentions the same things though!

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1582935484-post12.html

Something is amiss. We need pictures and/or video.
The descriptions in the link are based on "he said/ she said" from the factory. There is no question in my mind but that the straightening out of the pull is the right thing to do, "L" bracket or no.
As I recall I may have had to tweak that L bracket to accomplish the desired effect.
Overall though this would not be the first time things done on purpose at the factory ended up being wrong in so far as reliability is concerned. Sometimes things are simply done to be expeditious.

On the other hand what some are calling "upside down" may in fact be "right side up" ?

[WVZR-1]

Something is amiss. We need pictures and/or video.
The descriptions in the link are based on "he said/ she said" from the factory. There is no question in my mind but that the straightening out of the pull is the right thing to do, "L" bracket or no.
As I recall I may have had to tweak that L bracket to accomplish the desired effect.
Overall though this would not be the first time things done on purpose at the factory ended up being wrong in so far as reliability is concerned. Sometimes things are simply done to be expeditious.

On the other hand what some are calling "upside down" may in fact be "right side up" ?

Scott - I didn't expect you to be particularly "receptive" to the information! Having many vacuum actuators of various styles apart and understanding how the linkage is attached to the diaphragm in most of them, Jerry's comments make sense. Your comment "he said/she said" was an expected comment after your "matter of fact" statement that I only pointed out was something that had been discussed further, you certainly didn't disappoint there!

[scottfab]

Scott - I didn't expect you to be particularly "receptive" to the information! Having many vacuum actuators of various styles apart and understanding how the linkage is attached to the diaphragm in most of them, Jerry's comments make sense. Your comment "he said/she said" was an expected comment after your "matter of fact" statement that I only pointed out was something that had been discussed further, you certainly didn't disappoint there!

I really don't want to get to the pissing match just yet. I'd rather stick to some facts. The reason for mentioning "he said she said" is that there is nothing useful in saying a GM guy said such and such. Carries no proof that the way to do it is right because.......blah blah blah.
And as far as not disappointing you, sounds like you would like to just argue. You'll have to look elsewhere for that.

Now then. About the issue.
Without pulling my plenum (which I haven't had to do in over 10yrs) and video the smooth and straight pull of the L bracket can we come up with some pictures or video? Let's to that instead of using indirect testimony.
I'm on my roof today doing some flashing but will be in and out cooling down. Later on I'll look for my pics. This issue needs to probably move to an old thread or start a new one. We're kind on a thread title that is a non segue. At issue is: binding AND damage to the diaphragm by pulling at an angle (sideways).

[Bearly Flying]

I pulled one of the actuators and flipped it around and tested each with a vacuum pump. Doesn't appear to be any binding on either one, takes the same amount of vacuum to open to full throttle

Linkage as found
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r203/BearlyFlying/020-1_zps1a65c048.jpg

Rotated Canister to straighten alignment
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r203/BearlyFlying/023-1_zps0e890319.jpg


Scott, Your right. Sorry about the hijack. I will start a new thread.

Don

[Bearly Flying]

To finish off the Starter thread. Pics of the solenoid contact and plunger.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r203/BearlyFlying/027-1_zps7e65ac92.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r203/BearlyFlying/028_zpsfa409123.jpg


http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r203/BearlyFlying/030_zps20862de4.jpg

[A26B]

By request from the OP, Barely Flying, please find the following, FACTUAL information regarding "Secondary actuators installed backwards at the factory";

In actuality, this is simply not accurate.

Chris Allen, Assembly Manager and Scott Skinner, Engine Building Supervisor, were Mercury Marine employees on the LT5 project. I am proud to say that both are good friends of mine. I also personally know several of the girls who worked on the LT5 assembly line. My information comes directly from all of the above.

The facts are:
1. The linkage arm sits to one side of center due to an "L" bend in the arm for attachment to the actuator diaphram.

2. The actuator was initially installed with the diaphram linkage "straight in line with the secondary linkage bellcrank.Binding/dragging was evident, so the actuator was turned over to align the center of the actuator diaphram with the bellcrank. The linkage was angled but the pull was straight and aligned with the actuator. No more binding, quicker & smoother operation.

3. The LT5 was essentially a hand-built engine produced to race engine tolerances, by Mercury employees who filled voluntary positions with no guarantee that the positions they were leaving, earned by time & performance, would be available to them after the LT5 program was completed. They were a team of highly skilled and motivated personnel.

4. The ocassional posts about "a woman" doing sub-standard work is unfounded and unwarranted. To further promote baseless rumors only serves to promote mis-truths about the LT5 and cast an undeserving bad light on individuals who consider the LT5 program at Mercury Marine in Stillwater, OK, the highlight of their entire career.

THE BOTTOM LINE: The actuators work best and are supposed to be installed with the linkage bar angled to the secondary linkage bellcrank, to achieve a straight pull from the diaphram. Do not rotate the actuator to obtain a straight linkage bar.

[Bearly Flying]

Thanks Jerry, actually I started a second thread on this. Hope you don.t mind but I will copy it over there.

Good info, Thanks

[Z51JEFF]

I have an NOS safety switch AC Delco part #D2213A if the OP needs it,$100 is what I paid.Ive had a few no start issues with my 91.Ive replaced the OEM starter relay and also ran a second ground From the starter relay,so far no issues but this has only happened a few times in all the years Ive had the car.Ive got the secondary relay if the problem continues.When I was looking for the safety switch it was nowhere to be found,lots of places had it listed on there websites but when t came time to order one,no deal.

[gbmidyear66]

Been overseas for a week on business, come back and this thread has taken on a life of its own. Anyhow, all good stuff

Z51JEFF - thanks for the offer, but I am inclined to think my issue was most likely an incorrect key read by the VATS. I'm going to leave the clutch switch as is. I put the hush panel back in and cleaned the ignition cylinder today.

I'm going to keep a close watch on the behavior each time I try to start the car to try and isolate clutch Vs VATS - hopefully my experience was a "one of".

[scottfab]

.... snip...

I'm going to keep a close watch on the behavior each time I try to start the car to try and isolate clutch Vs VATS - hopefully my experience was a "one of".

There is a thread somewhere that lists in order of "most likely to occur" the "NO start" issues. If you print it and have it in the car you can refer to it quickly upon the next event (if ever). If it is not already, it should be a sticky thread and in the Solutions list.

[Dynomite]

Take a look at the Intermittent No Start TIPS Link Below

That link cites Haibeck Automotive Technology Haibeck Automotive Technology (http://www.zr1specialist.com/) as the source of the Technical Information :thumbsup:

STARTER
Intermittent No Start TIPS (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=10180 )
Starter Electrical Connections TIPS (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=170257)
Starter Solenoid TIPS (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=149253#post149253)
Starter relay modification TIPS (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=88156)
Hold starter longer to prevent backfire TIPS (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=139294)
Starter Relay, Wiring Harness, and Plugs Tricks (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-3.html#post1581564085)
Clutch Start Switch Linkage (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-3.html#post1581564089)
No start (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=75155 )
No start cure (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=98493)
Starting issues (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=77517)
Ebay ZR1 Starter (http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=ZR1+starter&_sacat=0&_odkw=lt5+plug+wires&_osacat=0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313)

[Dynomite]

Guess what......I have a NO START :sign10:

Got to test my Tow Adapter :D
Worked perfectly....popped the clutch in second gear and vrrrrrrooooommmm ;)

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/49089722-2f9e-43b5-85fa-946a8ef1e888.jpghttp://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/1c6c7f9c-d3b7-44e7-8a03-c938c69b61ff.jpg

See #2 of Lifting and Towing the ZR-1 (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp.html#post1580070574)

I will make sure I have plenty of battery and if so .....will remove the plenum and fix the darn starter (this the 91'....starter fixed on 90'). It rat tat tat tats.....
I will even take photos for anyone that is interested in a 10 minute Plenum Removal.

Dang :p

[Bearly Flying]

10 minute Plenum removal.????....... Your Welcome at my place anytime....

[Dynomite]

10 minute Plenum removal.????....... Your Welcome at my place anytime....

To make Plenum Removal a 10 minute issue you should previously have Eliminated TB Coolant, Installed Oil Catch Can, put nothing on the gaskets and have a 1/4 inch socket with short extension for the DIS module connection in back of Plenum in your hand.....you are there (the 10 minute Plenum Removal) :D

Cliff

[Bearly Flying]

Geez, You Guy's amaze me. Took me three days to get everything stripped off.

[Corbusa]

Pictures Dyn. Please and the TB coolant removeal. thanks

[Dynomite]

Pictures Dyn. Please and the TB coolant removeal. thanks

OK.....will do Pictures for the Quick Plemum Removal NEXT TIME.

It turns out my Battery went dead on last drive as I was driving.....I did not get past STEP #1 described in Section B below......

Battery Hold Down Clamp is held in place with 6mm Allen Head SS Bolt
which can be removed using a 6mm Ball End Allen 3/8 inch socket.
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/022c002b-0159-45c8-a3c7-8361a5d3c653.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/Maintenance%20ZR1/022c002b-0159-45c8-a3c7-8361a5d3c653.jpg.html)

Refer to mgbrv8 Plenum Pull Thread as he has done a super Plenum Pull Coverage (Great Photos) including great Detailed Photo Coverage on AC Compressor and Starter Repairs mgbrv8 Plenum Pull including AC Compressor and Starter Repair (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?p=165102) :thumbsup:

Complete set of ALL pictures here NEXT TIME See #2 The 10 Minute Plenum Removal (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-4.html#post1581663365)

TB Coolant Elimination is Item #4 LT5 Eliminated Systems (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/2942569-tech-info-lt5-eliminated-systems.html)

A. Tools for Plenum Removal.

Two Allen Head wrenches (6mm and 3mm),
Two flat head Screw drivers and ...................................1/4 inch socket wrench with 1/4 inch socket
TB bracket wrenches (7mm and 9mm)..........................and short extension for DIS Connector
http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/cd1f898d-6255-439d-af9e-ab8bfbaea4b9.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/Maintenance%20ZR1/cd1f898d-6255-439d-af9e-ab8bfbaea4b9.jpg.html)http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Maintenance%20ZR1/7d184269-e7b8-4563-bb79-10ded592ab5c.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/Maintenance%20ZR1/7d184269-e7b8-4563-bb79-10ded592ab5c.jpg.html)

B. Plenum Removal Steps (assuming you have TB Coolant Blocked). If not.....remove some coolant before you start.
1. Disconnect Battery (Check Battery Condition and Jumper GOOD Battery as FIRST CHECK).
2. Remove Samco (or stock) Air Duct (large flat screw driver).
3. Remove Oil Catch Can Hose (If Oil Catch Can Installed) to Plenum and PCV Dual Connector on back of Plenum (small flat screw driver).
4. Remove Throttle Body Cables (two including TB Shield and two top (I have 3mm SS Allen Head) screws on Plenum) and TB Connector (7mm and 9mm wrenches).
5. Remove Fuel Regulator Vacuum Hose "L" rear of Plenum.
6. Disconnect MAP Vacuum hose from MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) and from rear of Plenum.......
(in case it gets intangled with other wires/hoses as MAP is not disconnected from Plenum).
7. Disconnect Passenger Side Plenum Vacuum (and Drivers side Plenum Vacuum if secondaries not removed).
8. Disconnect Brake Boost Vacuum line Drivers Side Rear of Plenum.
9. Remove three 6mm Allen Head SS Fuel Line Bolts and two fuel lines (6mm Allen Ball Head Socket) or Torx-40 stock bolts.
10. Open gas cap to prevent fuel lines from leaking when removed from fuel rail.
11. Remove 12 Allen Head SS Plenum Bolts (6mm Allen Ball Head Socket with Extension) or Torx-40 stock bolts.
12. Lift Plenum from Gasket (front only) and remove two Cam Cover PCV Vent Rubber Connectors to Air Horn.
13. Disconnect two DIS (Distributorless Ignition System) Connectors front of DIS.
14. Disconnect large Purge Vacuum line under front of Plenum (91')......
(90' has small vacuum line only under front of Plenum going to Charcoal Canister under left head light).
15. Disconnect two small electrical connectors rear under Plenum (MAP and DIS).
16. Unscrew 1/4 bolt in Main DIS Connector rear of Plenum.
17. Remove Plenum.

C. Starter Removal.
18. Remove Coil Pack Connector and 4 bolts (two pairs 8mm hex heads 6mm bolts front, 10mm hex heads 8mm bolts rear).
19. Remove Coil Packs with plug wires attached (remove all 8 plug wires from Cam Covers).
20. Check starter with hot wire but then disconnect Starter Solenoid connector.
21. Disconnect main HOT wire from Battery to Starter.
22. Remove two starter mounting bolts (13mm Hex Head 10mm bolts) and lift starter out of Valley.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/D%20Engine%20LT5/f6da30fd-c4c0-4c81-9e31-f7510aaf14f2.jpg (http://s287.photobucket.com/user/dynomite007/media/D%20Engine%20LT5/f6da30fd-c4c0-4c81-9e31-f7510aaf14f2.jpg.html")

D. New Tools These from Harbour Freight......

a. 1/4 inch drive Torx #40 hardened steel for Plenum and Cam Cover Bolts (just long enough to reach between those two tight runners on the Plenum).

b. 14 inch long combination 1/4 inch and 3/8 inch drive Flex Head Socket wrench strong enough (even using the 1/4 inch end) to remove the hardest to remove Torx Cam Cover Bolts. The 14 inch leverage eliminates the need for a cheater bar on the typical socket wrench.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/dynomite007/Dynomite5/2bf973fa-bace-4f3d-8862-727822b29d38.jpg

[mgbrv8]

Here ya go buddy its all there

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10201021415884459.2217036.1439230280&type=1&l=bf12a0aa41

Dave

[POWERBRAKEBOB]

I bought my car new, and had the problem since. I learned more than I ever wanted to know. I found that the PASS Key, after verifying, then tells the F/P relay to start the pump to run for 2 seconds. THEN, that relay tells the Starter Enable Relay to allow current on thru the system to start cranking. HOWEVER, IF you keep running the tank low on fuel, it will burn up the pump. WHEN the pump overheats, it burns the relays. AQLL of this happened until one day, it would not crank, even when I hotwired the solenoid. I changed the pump, still problems, I ended up changinf the F/P relay. THEN I changed the starter relay. I had bypassed the clutch swith some 20 years ago. This time I bypassed the PASS key. Still problems. The car had sat a few years, so I hit the engine at the quarter car wash. While replacing the injectors, I noteced water in the valley. ASSUMING it would dry up soon. I lef it. It looked like bilge water. Ended up, the starter went under water. So, I ended up rebuilding the starter, BUT I was able to install a longer armature and field circuit off of another Denso starter.
NOW, with the PASS bypassed, the clutch switch bypassed, new relays, and higher powered starter, this motor SPINS. It starts now with snap, and never a failure. I am building these starters for your car, if you are in need of a starter that really cranks. I can also rebuild the alternator and water pumps. Up next is a larger bore clutch master and a HYDROBOOST Power brake booster, using a larger (1 inch) master.

[FU]

I ended up rebuilding the starter, BUT I was able to install a longer armature and field circuit off of another Denso starter.
NOW, with the PASS bypassed, the clutch switch bypassed, new relays, and higher powered starter, this motor SPINS. It starts now with snap, and never a failure. I am building these starters for your car, if you are in need of a starter that really cranks. I can also rebuild the alternator and water pumps. Up next is a larger bore clutch master and a HYDROBOOST Power brake booster, using a larger (1 inch) master.

You need to start another post about this , good stuff !!

[Corbusa]

Thanks Dyn !! And powerbrakebob thanks for what you're doing... I'm sure many will be glad for your rebuilds... I haven't been on the site much lately but appreciate all the help when its needed.

[Dynomite]

I bought my car new, and had the problem since. I learned more than I ever wanted to know. I found that the PASS Key, after verifying, then tells the F/P relay to start the pump to run for 2 seconds. THEN, that relay tells the Starter Enable Relay to allow current on thru the system to start cranking. HOWEVER, IF you keep running the tank low on fuel, it will burn up the pump. WHEN the pump overheats, it burns the relays. AQLL of this happened until one day, it would not crank, even when I hotwired the solenoid. I changed the pump, still problems, I ended up changinf the F/P relay. THEN I changed the starter relay. I had bypassed the clutch swith some 20 years ago. This time I bypassed the PASS key. Still problems. The car had sat a few years, so I hit the engine at the quarter car wash. While replacing the injectors, I noteced water in the valley. ASSUMING it would dry up soon. I lef it. It looked like bilge water. Ended up, the starter went under water. So, I ended up rebuilding the starter, BUT I was able to install a longer armature and field circuit off of another Denso starter.

NOW, with the PASS bypassed, the clutch switch bypassed, new relays, and higher powered starter, this motor SPINS. It starts now with snap, and never a failure. I am building these starters for your car, if you are in need of a starter that really cranks. I can also rebuild the alternator and water pumps. Up next is a larger bore clutch master and a HYDROBOOST Power brake booster, using a larger (1 inch) master.


You need to start another post about this , good stuff !!

I was thinking the same thing.....Very interesting technical information :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

In particular how it might relate to Lee's ZR1net Parts Development Program (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=21115)