endurance record

[Vetman]

Is it fair to say the z still has the 24 hours endurance run record of any production car. As I read about the vw that set a higher speed, it sounds like it was a prototype, not a regular production car as our Z's were?

[Kevin]

the records set were regardless of class, however the zr-1 was the last production car to do it

[vettebrett]

the records set were regardless of class, however the zr-1 was the last production car to do it

You would be correct Kevin

[Vetman]

Any speculation from anyone if the new zr1 could hold up to the challenge. I would think the supercharger might be a weak point for a 24 hour run.

[ZRXMAX]

It seems the automotive industry loves to brags about what their cars can do these days, however, resetting the 24 hour record isn't something they are drawn to do.

I think it would be really exciting for the worlds automotive leaders in performance were to bring their top dogs to a venue similar in some ways to Ft Stockton for a bit of record setting attempts.

I am pretty sure their are a few cars out there that could raise the bar now.

I am also pretty sure a well sorted out 90 to 95 ZR-1 could raise the bar also !

[efnfast]

Now, wouldn't it be the nuts to see an old ZR-1 beat the old record.

[ZR-1 Franz]

I think this record with the VW Nardo has to be accepted. But, this car was purpose built
for this record run. If it would have failed, they would have said that it was just a test run
of a prototype. And, they drove it at the high speed circle track in Nardo, Italy.
This track is not so dangerous as Fort Stockton. It was no economic risk for VW as
it was for Chevrolet. At the time of the record run of the ZR-1, ZR-1s were in the
showrooms of Chevy dealers. Just imagine what would have happened to this
car if they would have had no success in Fort Stockton!
But this is typical for the European car manufaturers, especially the Germans.
They also played an unfair game with Reeves Callaway and his Sledgehammer.
But Callaway and Lingenfelter showed them what a real "hammer" is!
For me, the ZR-1 is still the record holder, no other production car was ever able
to do this.

[ZRXMAX]

I have no trouble (any longer) accepting the "*Record*" that VW set.

:)

I think this record with the VW Nardo has to be accepted. But, this car was purpose built
for this record run. If it would have failed, they would have said that it was just a test run
of a prototype. And, they drove it at the high speed circle track in Nardo, Italy.
This track is not so dangerous as Fort Stockton. It was no economic risk for VW as
it was for Chevrolet. At the time of the record run of the ZR-1, ZR-1s were in the
showrooms of Chevy dealers. Just imagine what would have happened to this
car if they would have had no success in Fort Stockton!
But this is typical for the European car manufaturers, especially the Germans.
They also played an unfair game with Reeves Callaway and his Sledgehammer.
But Callaway and Lingenfelter showed them what a real "hammer" is!
For me, the ZR-1 is still the record holder, no other production car was ever able
to do this.

[ZZZZZR1]

I think this record with the VW Nardo has to be accepted. But, this car was purpose built
for this record run. If it would have failed, they would have said that it was just a test run
of a prototype. And, they drove it at the high speed circle track in Nardo, Italy.
This track is not so dangerous as Fort Stockton. It was no economic risk for VW as
it was for Chevrolet. At the time of the record run of the ZR-1, ZR-1s were in the
showrooms of Chevy dealers. Just imagine what would have happened to this
car if they would have had no success in Fort Stockton!
But this is typical for the European car manufaturers, especially the Germans.
They also played an unfair game with Reeves Callaway and his Sledgehammer.
But Callaway and Lingenfelter showed them what a real "hammer" is!
For me, the ZR-1 is still the record holder, no other production car was ever able
to do this.

Well said Franz!!!!!

:cheers:

David

[WVZR-1]

the records set were regardless of class, however the zr-1 was the last production car to do it

What makes you think/believe that it was a "production" ZR-1?

You would be correct Kevin

I'd say it was a very "purpose built/assembled" car - production is a "stretch"!

[ZRXMAX]

What makes you think/believe that it was a "production" ZR-1?

Pot stirring David ?
Yes, the overall car was prepared for the record run. The engine was pulled from the assembly line for a cosmetic reason as the story goes. Given that the throttle was restricted to 70 to 75% from wide open and the Z was running much of the time in the low 180s it seems they might have super tuned it



I'd say it was a very "purpose built/assembled" car - production is a "stretch"!
Exhaust work for sure. Beyond the oil coolers, fuel cell and other mods required for the run I would be quessing.

[XfireZ51]

The rear gears were taller in order to keep the motor below the 6k rpm level.
According to accounts I heard at Gathering, they wanted to avoid water pump cavitating. So 5500rpm was a target for the 175. Obviously, there were safety mods that necessarily were part of the overall prep.

[ZR-1 Franz]

In my opinion The ZR-1 record car was still a production car, even with
all that tuning, because you can do these modifications to your ZR-1
without any problems. It is a car like yours, a car you can buy.
A car like the VW Nardo is a prototype, a purpose built car for what ever!
It's not so easy to get one and have it parked in your garage !! [-X[-X :-D

Best greetings from Switzerland,

Franz

[Fully Vetted]

The rear gears were taller in order to keep the motor below the 6k rpm level.
According to accounts I heard at Gathering, they wanted to avoid water pump cavitating. So 5500rpm was a target for the 175. Obviously, there were safety mods that necessarily were part of the overall prep.

Yeah, it was explained pretty well at The Gathering. They actually took an engine right off the line. In fact, they happened to pick an engine that had been rejected in QC for some reason and repaired. Thanks to the gearing the car was never ran at full throttle. They placed a block of wood under the accelerator pedal so the drivers could just keep it planted. They also had to carry certain parts in the car for repairs. In order for the run to count as a record if it broke down they could only use parts that were in the vehicle and the driver had to do the repair. If I remember correctly there was only one issue and it was after 24 hour record was set and they were going for the 5000 mile record (or visa versa) and I believe it was a coolant line maybe.

The only mod I kind of have an issue with is the gearing swap. Lowering the RPM will definitely have an impact on the endurance aspect which was what the record was all about to begin with.

[Hog]

Too bad they didnt just run the record in 6th gear.

5th gear with 3.08 gears at 5500rpm and a 25.7" tire gives you 182 mph.
3.33:1 gives you 167mph
3.45 is 162mph
3.55 is 158mph
3.70=151mph
4.11=136mph

In 6th gear with 4.56 gearing you can still run 184mph
4.11=204mph
3.70=227mph
3.55=236mph
3.45=243mph
3.36=250mph
3.08=273mph
But the driveshaft would be spinning at twice th engine rpm, or 11,000rpm in 6th gear with 4.56 gears and 5500rpm engine rpm at 184mph.

peace
Hog

[XfireZ51]

What was their actual average speed given that 175 includes stops and accel/ decel times?

[WVZR-1]

Too bad they didnt just run the record in 6th gear.


peace
Hog

A 6th gear run would likely have fallen short of the 24 hour record by 23 or more hours.

[Hog]

A 6th gear run would likely have fallen short of the 24 hour record by 23 or more hours.
Why?

peace
Hog

[WVZR-1]

Why?

peace
Hog

Heat and stress would have killed the ZF! Are some of the "catastrophic" failures of the ZF induced by abusing 6th gear? Maybe. Ask the builders and I believe they'll all mention disregarding 6th gear for all "sustained" high speed driving.

[Hog]

What was their actual average speed given that 175 includes stops and accel/ decel times?

Since teh 175 includes some periods of time at 0mph and at speeds other than 180mph, 175mpgh IS the cars actual average speed over the 24hour period.

To get the figure you seek, the stopwatchs would have to have been stopped everytime the driver deceled for a pit stop, the restarted when after the stop after peak speed had been re-attained. I doubt this was calculated.

peace
Hog

[Hog]

Heat and stress would have killed the ZF!
Heat and stress at 3/4 throttle? Obviously the appropriate gearing would have to swapped in, eg. 4.56's for 184mph. Just like they actually did for the record run to run in 5th gear.

peace
Hog

[Paul Workman]

Couple of things...

The water pump breaks into cavitation somewhere about or above 6000 rpm, and they needed to keep the rpm down below that for the run, obviously. And, 5th gear at about 5500 rpm is nearly at the torque peak for a stock LT5; both were valid considerations.

As for the ZF 6th gear issue, I have first hand experience with that, so I know what you're talking about. However, I haven't run across any reading that acknowledges that as being an issue with new ZFs. I wonder if it is an issue that appears after some miles are put on the car. In my case it happened at about 45,000, and the ZR-1 mileage was essentially new at the time of the record run.

FWIW,
P.

[Fully Vetted]

Since teh 175 includes some periods of time at 0mph and at speeds other than 180mph, 175mpgh IS the cars actual average speed over the 24hour period.

To get the figure you seek, the stopwatchs would have to have been stopped everytime the driver deceled for a pit stop, the restarted when after the stop after peak speed had been re-attained. I doubt this was calculated.

peace
Hog


If I remember correctly in the seminar they said their cruise speed was closer to 183-185mph to make up for stopping for driver change and fuel. Keep in mind this is a time vs. distance experiment. The 2 big records here were 24 hours and 5000 miles. At the end of 24 hrs you divide the miles driven by 24 hours and you come up with the average speed. At the end of 5000 miles you do the same thing still coming up with the average speed.

In the seminar they explained that after they had broken the 24 hr record they called Dave McLellan and told him the news. After congratulating them he asked, "Do you still have fuel?" "Yes, we do," they reported. "Do you still have tires?" Again, they reported, "Yes, we do." He responded with, "Let's go after the 5000 mile record, too, then!" They had travelled a little over 4221 miles. Another 800 miles wasn't that far of a stretch. The rest is history...



The water pump breaks into cavitation somewhere about or above 6000 rpm, and they needed to keep the rpm down below that for the run, obviously. And, 5th gear at about 5500 rpm is nearly at the torque peak for a stock LT5; both were valid considerations.

Doesn't an electric water pump solve that issue?

[FU]

Ask JVD , he was on the crew for the record run.

[LancePearson]

What was their actual average speed given that 175 includes stops and accel/ decel times?
The information I had was that the 5500 rpm with the 3:08 rear end run in fifth gear ran the car hour after hour at 190 mph on the straights and drifted down to 177 or less in the curves with the centrifugal force then crew changes, fuel, etc. The car also was required to carry 48 gallons of fuel. There are rules that a car must meet to qualify for the record. Remember, they beat a fifty year old record run by "the Mormon Meteor" at 161 mph and that was hardly a production car. Several others tried to do what our cars did and failed. I don't know if modern production cars could do it but something like a ZO6 prepped well ought to be able to I would think as could something like a Lambo, probably some of the BMW's. For that matter, I'd like to see what a 415 lt5 could do at it on the same track. The track is over 7 miles long and lightly banked but if you ran 220 mph and less in the corners I'd wonder if it would even be safe to try it. It's Bridgestone's tire test track now I believe.

What would be a serious hoot is to take 25 of our Z's as presently configured and run ten or twenty laps on that track one day. That would be a hell of a hoot.

[Hog]

[QUOTE=Fully Vetted;174469]If I remember correctly in the seminar they said their cruise speed was closer to 183-185mph to make up for stopping for driver change and fuel. Keep in mind this is a time vs. distance experiment. The 2 big records here were 24 hours and 5000 miles. At the end of 24 hrs you divide the miles driven by 24 hours and you come up with the average speed. At the end of 5000 miles you do the same thing still coming up with the average speed.

QUOTE]
My 180 mph cruise was hypoothetical as I didnt know the actual cruise figure. Thanks for the info.

XFire asked what their actual average speed was. I was giving him an answer to his question, which is based on data that wasnt gathered.

Here is an article with good data. I wonder what the ole' L98 would have done?
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/specs/c4/zr1/record.html

peace
Hog

[Hog]

The information I had was that the 5500 rpm with the 3:08 rear end run in fifth gear ran the car hour after hour at 190 mph on the straights and drifted down to 177 or less in the curves with the centrifugal force then crew changes, fuel, etc. The car also was required to carry 48 gallons of fuel. There are rules that a car must meet to qualify for the record. Remember, they beat a fifty year old record run by "the Mormon Meteor" at 161 mph and that was hardly a production car. Several others tried to do what our cars did and failed. I don't know if modern production cars could do it but something like a ZO6 prepped well ought to be able to I would think as could something like a Lambo, probably some of the BMW's. For that matter, I'd like to see what a 415 lt5 could do at it on the same track. The track is over 7 miles long and lightly banked but if you ran 220 mph and less in the corners I'd wonder if it would even be safe to try it. It's Bridgestone's tire test track now I believe.

What would be a serious hoot is to take 25 of our Z's as presently configured and run ten or twenty laps on that track one day. That would be a hell of a hoot.
A 415 LT5 wouldnt do much better with its throttle castrated to 70%. Power wasnt the limiting factor for the record run.

peace
Hog

[rkreigh]

the Nardo has upped the bar to 200+ average which would require a few things

1. the attempt to be run at Nardo, the only track this would be realistic to try.
2. lots of sustainable HP, going a average of 200+ is a whole different ball game than going 175
3. a really big check!!

I talked to Graham at length about what it would take from an engineering standpoint to retake the record for a ZR-1 and he stated quite simply

a check with many zeros after the 1

with no real incentive other than bragging rights it is a daunting and difficult task to muster the cash

a 415 with a big tank, roll bar, proper gearing, and aero mods would likely be challenged.

but I'd sure like to see a vette (new or old ZR-1, C7, C6R) or what ever it takes to set the bar up to 205 or so.

it's another thing on my "bucket list" - retake FIA record

now if we can just talk to Mr. Leno, and Mr. Lingenfelter about sponsoring the effort, I'm all in.

Graham, how about it?? my bet is that you could build the car given the check with the right number on it.

it would be a great honor to be a part of this effort, and we need to get this one BACK!!!

yes, the LT5 is still the only "production line" engine even with the minor tuning and mods to own this record.

I believe that a modern "run what ya brung" effort and something like the yellow bird 415 capable of lapping at 218 might even have a shot.

gonna take the right team to do it, and Nardo is the place.:flag2:

[Paul Workman]

Doesn't an electric water pump solve that issue?

Yes. And, Pete feels it may be worth about 8-10 hp too. However, if ever the damn thing stops working, you run the risk of cooking the gaskets (at the very least) on your LT5. (Pete can talk from experience on that issue as well!)

p.

[LancePearson]

I'm not sure what the merits of setting a record above 200 mph for 24 hours would be. For me the 175+ is pretty rare air over that length of time. Anything more gets to be a demonstration of spending without much merit in the car you are going to buy in the real world. Where can you even run them 175 now? Not in Virginia I can tell you.

Back in 1990 it was done for marketing with a specific real purpose: to overcome two decades of waning power and slowing speed by government fiat in the USA for a flagship race car product for a car company. It worked, established that Vette was fast and durable to counter two decades of decline.

Today, isn't it a given that all the upper end Vettes are fast? I'd guess Porsche, BMW, Ferrari, et al, already accept that and having watched some modern ZR-1's run at VIR I'd say they are very fast. So, why fuss with an endurance record when the speed of the marque is so well established now?

I think it's not worth re doing but would think a few laps on the same test track would be a heck of an anniversary event if it could be arranged for the owners of the cars.

Today, just about every engine in race cars can be made to generate more than one horsepower for every cubic inch of displacement or more so power is relatively cheap. Proving endurance isn't necessarily in GM or Porsche who owns the Nardo track now's best interest. It's okay to have it but with race cars what's the warranty?

I have been fascinated with the record and the doing of it but I think it was a one time thing and have often wondered why VW later tried it with their car. Outside of a very small fraternity, no one really knows about that record. Just my two cents but I don't see the merits of mounting any effort. The question seems to me to be: why? What's the purpose of doing it now? The cars already go faster than small aircraft fly.

I'd rather see them support DP and Gt racing and things like that, frankly.

Just my opinion and everyone has one.

[rkreigh]

the LT5 pump flows a ton and not too many electric pumps can come close to flowing the GPM rating of the mechanical pump

the elaborate bypass system was a direct result of the water pump high flow popping the end tanks off the cheap c4 rad at high flow

an electric pump can work and is a good idea for a drag car, but not too sweet on the street IMHO

[XfireZ51]

the LT5 pump flows a ton and not too many electric pumps can come close to flowing the GPM rating of the mechanical pump

the elaborate bypass system was a direct result of the water pump high flow popping the end tanks off the cheap c4 rad at high flow

an electric pump can work and is a good idea for a drag car, but not too sweet on the street IMHO

I think Pete would agree.

[grahambehan]

Ask JVD , he was on the crew for the record run.

Now that's funny!
Graham.

[Pete]

Ask JVD , he was on the crew for the record run.


Now that's funny!
Graham.

Is Mr JVD blowing smoke up our @ss again.:p


On the electric water pump, i was using a remote 55 GPM pump really never had an issue.
In traffic it would keep the motor nice and cool even in 90+ days i really liked it.
What i didn't like was when it stops it stops no warning.:censored:

The other thing is you can not go roundy round racing with an electric WP if you kept the RPM's up for a period of time it could not keep up but then again either does the stock WP the reason for our bypass.
The great thing about the electric WP was soon as you were done high revving (roundy round racing) the electric WP would bring the temps down much faster at idle.

Pete

[LGAFF]

Steve Maxwell exoctic car service did a water pump revision for Ferrari 348 twin turbos......they were having cavitation issues much like the LT-5. He did an impellar redesign and issue solved.

I tried to contact him, seems very old school...no website, no anwering machine, etc...maybe someone else might be able to contact him

[vettebrett]

If I remember correctly in the seminar they said their cruise speed was closer to 183-185mph to make up for stopping for driver change and fuel. Keep in mind this is a time vs. distance experiment. The 2 big records here were 24 hours and 5000 miles. At the end of 24 hrs you divide the miles driven by 24 hours and you come up with the average speed. At the end of 5000 miles you do the same thing still coming up with the average speed.

In the seminar they explained that after they had broken the 24 hr record they called Dave McLellan and told him the news. After congratulating them he asked, "Do you still have fuel?" "Yes, we do," they reported. "Do you still have tires?" Again, they reported, "Yes, we do." He responded with, "Let's go after the 5000 mile record, too, then!" They had travelled a little over 4221 miles. Another 800 miles wasn't that far of a stretch. The rest is history.

Nice to see that I did not put everyone to sleep during the presentation...lol

[FU]

......they were having cavitation issues much like the LT-5. He did an impellar redesign and issue solved.



We had that same problem racing another car that had a wp cavitation problem. The water pump that we tried was very similar to the LT5's pump. What we did to stop the cavitation was to rivert a thin stainless steel disc to cover the blade's on the open side. This stopped any over heating problem's on the car and worked better than expected. I meant to try this out on the LT5 with hope's that the "fix" may help out our high heat problem.

[Daniel_Mc]

Nice to see that I did not put everyone to sleep during the presentation...lol


Yea about that... :rolleyes:

[Vetman]

I agree with Lance about z's on the track at Fort Stockton! I would throw in some dough just to drive my z on the Fort Stockton track at a sane speed or insane speed. Maybe we could add that to the 25 year anniversary of the Z at the gathering in 2015. I plan to attend that event and will be coming from the state of Washington. I hope to visit what is left to the Stillwater plant too. It would be cool if they would open Stillwater up for us too. I hope something BIG is planned for the 25th Anniversary gathering in 2015. I hope to drag some west coast Z's along in a caravan.:cheers:

[Meanmyz]

Nice to see that I did not put everyone to sleep during the presentation...lol

Previous Quote: In the seminar they explained that after they had broken the 24 hr record they called Dave McLellan and told him the news. After congratulating them he asked, "Do you still have fuel?" "Yes, we do," they reported. "Do you still have tires?" Again, they reported, "Yes, we do." He responded with, "Let's go after the 5000 mile record, too, then!" They had travelled a little over 4221 miles. Another 800 miles wasn't that far of a stretch. The rest is history...) End Quote:

Ah Hah. And it's good to see you paid attention at the 2010 Gathering, as Dave McLellan, John Heinricy, Jim Minneker, and Tommy Morrison talked about that!:cheers: Of course maybe you knew that already.

[LancePearson]

I'm a touch confused. I thought the gpm ratings of our water pumps were too much, hence the flow system and double thermostat. At speeds over 6,000 rpm it cavitates? These guys get pushed to 7000 rpms quite often. Then, what do the highly tuned 415's, 427 resleeved or turbo boosted LT5's do for water pumps and effective cooling?

Is there a solution which deals with it in modern times? These cars are all still running around if they haven't been wrapped around a tree seems to me.

Lance

[vettebrett]

Yea about that... :rolleyes:

You don't count D

[ZRXMAX]

Reading about the history of the 24 Hour Record Run is great ! Its full of great people with drive, talent, and determination accomplishing what many others failed to accomplish. In my not so humble opinion nothing could be more exciting that making another attempt on the record with our fabled ZR-1. Why, how, and with what resources? That would be left to those that want it badly enough to see it become reality. I would like to see the direction of the conversation turns towards how it could happen. We are like Baja 1000 racers watching "Dust to Glory" for the 23rd time. Its makes great entertainment but misses the energy of undertaking a project that turns the automotive world into a spectator. I am willing to donate something relative to my expendable resources. The question is would any private entity really want to spend the money to make it happen? Very doubtful... Most would agree that on the outside nobody wants to invest in a project no matter how much fun it is with no real financial reward.

[Hib Halverson]

I was there.

Jim Van Dorn was not. In fact, Jim did not get into the ZR1 hobby until year or so later.

The car was stock. In fact, it weighed significantly more than stock due to the cage, the fuel cell, telemetry, radios and the spare parts it carried.

The engine was as discussed earlier, a stock LT5, built by the LT5 Gang in Stillwater and held from shipping to BG because of a minor QC problem.

It was used in the Record Run car as-is with stock manifolds no cats and open exhaust. The calibration was changed to optimize engine performance in that configuration. The engine was throttle-stopped except for a few laps at the very end which Stu Hayner ran at WOT in fifth.

The car had a 3.07 axle, no rear stabilizer bar and no sideview mirrors.

The tires were special race tires Goodyear built for the Run.

It is unlikely another production car would ever set the 24. The cost would be astronomical. Finding a venue would be difficult. It would be unlikely a production car would be able to exceed the VW prototype's 24-hr. speed to set a record.

[LancePearson]

I can only imagine what that engine sounded like thundering down the straight at 190 mph or so. Open exhaust, no cats. What was that like to listen to, H.H.?

Lance

[Hib Halverson]

I'm a touch confused. I thought the gpm ratings of our water pumps were too much, hence the flow system and double thermostat. At speeds over 6,000 rpm it cavitates? These guys get pushed to 7000 rpms quite often. Then, what do the highly tuned 415's, 427 resleeved or turbo boosted LT5's do for water pumps and effective cooling?

Is there a solution which deals with it in modern times? These cars are all still running around if they haven't been wrapped around a tree seems to me.

Lance

These highly tuned 415s or 427s or turbo LT5s are not running WOT/high-rpm for sustained periods, thus they don't run into cooling problems.

While I've not tested LT5 coolant pumps, I do know that one of the final validation tests was WOT fifth gear for a tank of fuel. The cooling system must have worked well enough to pass that test.

I've not experience the "cavitation problem" but I've always thought a quality, all-alumium radiator, a 20 psi system and a blocked or restricted coolant bypass would improve high rpm cooling.

Additionally, I'm not sure I understand how the pump could cavatate when the system is bypassing coolant around the radiator, but again, there are probably those here better versed in hydrodynamic subjects than I.

[Meanmyz]

Hib, I remember first reading your article on this in the 1990 Road & Track "Specials" Corvette issue. Awesome stuff. As a matter of fact, just thinking about it brings back memories of "the electricity in the air" over the new ZR-1.

[ZR-1 Franz]

When I began to drive Corvettes, my first one was a '74 Coupe, many people here
could not understand. I often was asked, why I would not drive an European sports car.
I never wanted, even the Corvette's reputation wasn't good here. In German car
magazines the Corvette did not often get fair critics. Me for myself often told those
who criticized the Corvette, that the day would come when they all would shut their big mouths! And this day came and you could not read a lot about this record in European car magazines.
This is what the Europeans understand as "fair". I think
there was no European sports
car at this time which would have been able to get this record and the Europeans
had to take a purpose built race car, yes this VW is a race car, to beat the ZR-1.
May be they would never have it this way easy, if they had to drive it in Fort Stockton.
In Nardo you have side rails on the whole track, it is much better illuminated and so on.
All of these facts make me so proud to have a ZR-1 in my garage, especially here in
Europe!!!! :saluting:

[Meanmyz]

When I began to drive Corvettes, my first one was a '74 Coupe, many people here
could not understand. I often was asked, why I would not drive an European sports car.
I never wanted, even the Corvette's reputation wasn't good here. In German car
magazines the Corvette did not often get fair critics. Me for myself often told those
who criticized the Corvette, that the day would come when they all would shut their big mouths! And this day came and you could not read a lot about this record in European car magazines.
This is what the Europeans understand as "fair". I think
there was no European sports
car at this time which would have been able to get this record and the Europeans
had to take a purpose built race car, yes this VW is a race car, to beat the ZR-1.
May be they would never have it this way easy, if they had to drive it in Fort Stockton.
In Nardo you have side rails on the whole track, it is much better illuminated and so on.
All of these facts make me so proud to have a ZR-1 in my garage, especially here in
Europe!!!! :saluting:



I know how you feel Franz. :cheers:

[TCurtner]

Yes. And, Pete feels it may be worth about 8-10 hp too. However, if ever the damn thing stops working, you run the risk of cooking the gaskets (at the very least) on your LT5. (Pete can talk from experience on that issue as well!)

p.


Would someone share what parts to use to correctly add the electric unit? Part numbers? Sources? Can the whole bypass circuit be BYPASSED? What radiator? I want to go VERY FAST for very long - and all between 5k and 7.1k rpms regularly :-)
Thanks in Advance :happy1:

[Pete]

Would someone share what parts to use to correctly add the electric unit? Part numbers? Sources? Can the whole bypass circuit be BYPASSED? What radiator? I want to go VERY FAST for very long - and all between 5k and 7.1k rpms regularly :-)
Thanks in Advance :happy1:

If your going to run those type of RPM's for extended time the electric WP will not be good.

You can limit the bypass but can not eliminate it completely,even with electric WP.

Pete

[vandornjim]

I was there.

Jim Van Dorn was not. In fact, Jim did not get into the ZR1 hobby until year or so later.

Now Hibber. Weren't we supposed to be the same person in those early years?:cheers:

No, I wasn't there and didn't know anything about it until afterwards.
At the 2010 BBQ Gathering we showed the story of the run and Morrison was there along with others of the run. We gave out videos to many in attendance.

Speaking of water pumps and such. I had one of our techs once leave a clamp loose and started an LT5. The hose came off and the water shot clear across the shop. Someone once told me the LT5 pumped 90 gallons per minute. That seems pretty high but I never tried to verify it.

That's one of the amazing things about the LT5. The AC, PS, alternator, water pump, oil pump, and all the other systems have to work at idle, then all the way up to 7200. And they did it for 24 hours!

The only question I have about the run? What about jackrabbits and coyotes on the track at 180mph?;)

[-=Jeff=-]

What about jackrabbits and coyotes on the track at 180mph?;)

The jackrabbits and coyotes were a bit faster then the ZR-1 @ 181 MPH, so they would not get hit ;)

:p

[Fully Vetted]

I hear that's why they chose Texas for the record attempt. Animals are just a tad quicker down here.

[rkreigh]

Some ideas about bringing the Endurance Record BACK to the corvette. Maybe not the C4 ZR-1 (although a nice 415 could do it) but potentially the NEXT ZR-1 or a fully prepped Corvette. the Nardo has had it long enough. time for the corvette to take it again!

>>>> read on if interested.

I have some ideas on how to attract investors and some ideas, potential investors that might be willing to finance such an immense undertaking.

I've talked to Graham over the years and I'm sure that he'd be interested in building the car if the funds were available. Now that Ken owns LPE, my bet is that he would jump on this as a backer and for a marketing opportunity for LPE.

like to get the following "team together" to back and build

Ken Lingenfelter/Graham Behan
Doug Rippie
Kim Baker
Reeves Callaway/Chris Chesnoe
(Chris is right here in VA and a good friend of mine, works as the callaway marketing rep)
Jay Leno (car guy extroadinaire, might be a backer)
HP Computers (own EDS now, might want to get back in for advertising)
Speed Channel
GM (maybe to promote the C7, next ZR-1)
Guildstrand

others...... there are many that MIGHT be interested. the secret is to get widespread support and build a world class team like the first go around.

for drivers,

as many of the original 24 hours team that would want to drive, plus some of the current Corvette team to round out the field. I'm betting that would be the easy part. During the 2010 Anniversary, many of the original team expressed interest in "doing it again" of the opportunity was available.

Anyway, it will take a good business plan and being that this is ONLY for bragging rights, filming the event and getting the celebs air time on a Speed Channel show for advertising purposes about the build of the car, the running of the event, and retaking of the record is the only real attraction.

I would also build a website to collect donations to help fund it and sell patches, merchandise ect.... potentially using a non-profit corp similar to ZR-1 Net Registry.

sounds crazy I know, but it's on my personal "bucket list" to retake the record.

love to get involved organizing this team, the engineering and build of the car, and of course a victory lap or two wouldn't be bad either!!!

run would have to be at Nardo of course, don't know of any other suitable tracks that would work.

running 200+ for 24 hours wont be easy, or cheap, but it's time to bring this record back to the corvette

long overdue. and thanks to Dave and GM for building the one and only ZR-1 to take it the first time and create the legend we all enjoy today. truly a world class team that produced beyond expectation.

time to do it again!!

[LancePearson]

You are right, it sounds crazy, not exactly crazy but more or less pointless. Not worth the effort or expense but have at it if you are driven to.

[rkreigh]

the 24 hour record means a lot to the ZR-1 brothers.

nothing in it besides the achievement. kinda like climbing mountains.

but trust me, going fast for a LONG time is a hoot.

if you think 140 is cool, try 200. once you're there you'll understand a whole lot better.

[Vetman]

I love the idea. Because Corvette set the record once before, I would think it would be more likely to happen again. Funding should be easier.... not easy. Getting some heavy hitters behind this, especially G.M would be key. I would hope a track in the U.S. could be located. I would think funding would be more likely if it was run in the U.S. If it was done in Europe, I would schedule a trip at that time to attend. However it would be much more fun to drive my Z to it in the U.S. Sounds like a giant Net Registry party!!!:cheers:

[XfireZ51]

Ron,
I think you're a dreamer but I LOVE how you dream.

[Fully Vetted]

I wish there were categories for stock, modified and purpose built cars. I'm more interested in what the record would be for a bone stock car right off the line. Who cares what a modified or purpose built car can do. Then it just becomes a spending challenge more than anything else. I say run a stock car where the only changes allowed would be tires and safety equipment. In this case even our ZR-1's would be considered modified. They changed the gearing so they could run at those speeds and keep it under 6000 rpm because of the cavitation problem. What if they hadn't been allowed to do that and remain in the stock classification? Would the record have been broken? I still think it would have but the margin would've been much smaller.

[LancePearson]

the 24 hour record means a lot to the ZR-1 brothers.

nothing in it besides the achievement. kinda like climbing mountains.

but trust me, going fast for a LONG time is a hoot.

if you think 140 is cool, try 200. once you're there you'll understand a whole lot better.

In 1999 context it was important. Today, I don't think so much.

It's an unrealistically long period to run anything at over 200 mph safely in my view.

If you look at modern high powered and fast engines they do not have long or reliable life expectancies. Just look at the F1 engine racing rules in detail and see how long an Indy 500 car engine lasts before being trashed. The ability to generate high speeds today is far more common than it was 25 years ago through technology. Most come with a decided lack of ability to do it for long periods with a very few exceptions.

Running 24 hours at 200 mph? Where can the average guy run his Z for ten minutes for even 140 or 150 mph without risking huge traffic fines and worse? A few closed open road races.

So, it isn't a matter of not understanding, it's a matter of not caring as it isn't relevant.

It would be far more fun to buy time from Bridgestone if they would let us and take 20 or 30 Z's and run ten or twenty laps on that very same track where the record was set with our owners driving their own cars. No circular track in Europe would be nearly as significant to this owner.

However, if it's your dream, have at it. I'd prefer something more down home, more relevant, more concrete personally.

Lance

[Fully Vetted]

In 1999 context it was important. Today, I don't think so much.

Why? Why was it relevant 23 years ago but not today? What has changed?

It's an unrealistically long period to run anything at over 200 mph safely in my view.

I would argue that 200 mph today is safer than 175 mph 23 years ago.

If you look at modern high powered and fast engines they do not have long or reliable life expectancies. Just look at the F1 engine racing rules in detail and see how long an Indy 500 car engine lasts before being trashed. The ability to generate high speeds today is far more common than it was 25 years ago through technology. Most come with a decided lack of ability to do it for long periods with a very few exceptions.

The purpose of F1 and Indy car engines isn't to run 24 hours. That's like saying the drag cars don't last long enough to run in NASCAR. It's not that they don't have reliable life expectancies. That's not what they are designed to do. However, look at the LeMans cars. They do it all the time.



Running 24 hours at 200 mph? Where can the average guy run his Z for ten minutes for even 140 or 150 mph without risking huge traffic fines and worse? A few closed open road races.

It's no different than in 1990.

So, it isn't a matter of not understanding, it's a matter of not caring as it isn't relevant.

I completely disagree.

It would be far more fun to buy time from Bridgestone if they would let us and take 20 or 30 Z's and run ten or twenty laps on that very same track where the record was set with our owners driving their own cars. No circular track in Europe would be nearly as significant to this owner.

I completely agree.

[LancePearson]

It's just opinions and I've stated mine so will not go further other than to answer one of your points. "...Why? Why was it relevant 23 years ago but not today? What has changed?"

Go back to the time and there were very serious marketing reasons for doing this then after 20 years of being gutted by the EPA and losing their flagship's record for speed and power. It started conceptually by Lloyd R. and others and was a very valid marketing reason to develop the car and engine for speed then show the world they were back to being fast and powerful. They wanted to sell cars. In that context in those times it was an astounding accomplishment that brought real relevance. Shame they didn't continue to develop the dohc and stuck with the old two valve pushrod instead in my view.

Hey, if it's your dream, go for it. As much as I love my lt5 I just don't share that dream.

Lance

[Hog]

I wish there were categories for stock, modified and purpose built cars. I'm more interested in what the record would be for a bone stock car right off the line. Who cares what a modified or purpose built car can do. Then it just becomes a spending challenge more than anything else. I say run a stock car where the only changes allowed would be tires and safety equipment. In this case even our ZR-1's would be considered modified. They changed the gearing so they could run at those speeds and keep it under 6000 rpm because of the cavitation problem. What if they hadn't been allowed to do that and remain in the stock classification? Would the record have been broken? I still think it would have but the margin would've been much smaller.

A very slight change in gearing matter not, 3.45/3.54 to a 3.07 gear, big deal. Heck the 3.07 gear was still an available gearing choice in a Corvette. It only brought the engine rpm down about 700-800rpm. They could have added a single inch of tire and brought the rpm down 400rpm.


That gear swap means nothing in the big picture, they ran in 5th gear. Theoretically they could have ran a 2.56 rear gear and ran in 4th gear of the ZF. Would that mean the car isnt "stock", no, it just means it's optioned differently.

At the end they removed the throttle stop and ran over 190mph.

Remember the 5000mile wasnt an original goal as it only mattered in the US. The 5000km record made sense to much more of the world simply because of the metric system.

In my opinion, the Zedder that ran that endurance challege was a stock car with a stock LT5 installed. Stuff of legends.

peace
Hog

[Hog]

It's just opinions and I've stated mine so will not go further other than to answer one of your points. "...Why? Why was it relevant 23 years ago but not today? What has changed?"

Go back to the time and there were very serious marketing reasons for doing this then after 20 years of being gutted by the EPA and losing their flagship's record for speed and power. It started conceptually by Lloyd R. and others and was a very valid marketing reason to develop the car and engine for speed then show the world they were back to being fast and powerful. They wanted to sell cars. In that context in those times it was an astounding accomplishment that brought real relevance. Shame they didn't continue to develop the dohc and stuck with the old two valve pushrod instead in my view.

Hey, if it's your dream, go for it. As much as I love my lt5 I just don't share that dream.

Lance

Easy there killer, yes, you've stated your opinion, a few times now. I think it would be great. You dont have to share a dream to think that some times things should be done, just because it's a milestone, or because "It would be cool." To be so blatantly opposed to such an endeavour is IMO, kinda "wet-blanketish".

I really dont think that the endurance record had as much marketing importance as you say it did. There were a few cars before the ZR-1, that met if not beat the ZR-1 acceleration wise. This endurance record wasnt going to make or break GM. Having "valid marketing ideas" simply to have an "excuse" to get funding wouldnt be a 1st in GM performance divisions. Look at all John Moss's toybox.


Once the Direct Injection technology from GM gets some "break-in"miles on it(the GEN 5 LT1 IS the 1st GM engine to have AFM/DOD on a manual trans-DI or not). An attempt using a C7 with the supercharged LT4 in a C7- version 4 ZR1 could possibly spun for GM and/or Chevrolet Performance involvement.
The C7 appears to have some good aero as well as racebred cooling methods for the engine and trans/rear dif. Maybe it could be the car to invest in to break the record.

For no reason other than it being another automotive milestone, that next step to take, it would rock for a Vette to "take it back". Like we wouldnt brag to our Ford/Mopar friends if a Stingray retook the record.
We'd ALL be proud as ****.

peace
Hog

[Meanmyz]

This endurance record wasnt going to make or break GM.
Hog

Just something I wanted to throw in. I am not sure, but I can't remember GM bringing very much of a purse to the table. Tommy Morrison really had to work hard in getting money with sponsors. As it is, it really cost him ALOT of money and ALOT of headache in trying to get everything lined up.

I don't think Ralph Kramer's superiors (GM/Chevrolet marketing, were very keen on this effort. Or of being involved and/or risk involved to their employees (GM's employees) Heinricy or Minneker.

I think officially, they were there on their own time (as professional racers).

Anyway, Hib, or somebody can add, if they have anything to correct.

Goodyear, developing a special tire just for this run was a big help... For some reason, my memory says to the tune in the $250,000+ range...

[rkreigh]

for those who attended the 2010 gathering we learned quite a bit about what Morrison did to scrounge up funding, and yes goodyear kicked in the tire development which at the time was a huge amount, 250k sounds right.

another record attempt is all about bringing the record back to corvette and the usa to show the world that we build world class cars just like GM did with the ZR-1. it's hard for many to understand WHY this is important, it's a national pride thing, a corvette thing, an engineering thing.

and yes it takes a huge commitment in funding with ZERO return on investment unless we get creative.

look at nascar, top fuel, any form of racing. it's ALL about advertising. and that's where GM went wrong with the first run. it really didn't help sell the ZR-1 that much and only many years later did it help create "the legend" that is the ZR-1 today.

if we do it differently this time, it would be on speed channel, have professional videos done, and help all the contributors get the air time.

how about michelin for the tires?? new corvette tire brand has a "bad taste" in the USA's mind because they are french. but clearly they make great tires and have deep pockets. and Nardo is in their back yard.

keep in mind the ZR-1 and the C7 rollouts overseas, corvette is trying to penetrate the international market more than they have. it's important for the survival of the car, and being "world class" competitive is key! better products sell cars. GM is starting to understand that more and appealing to a global market is critical.

there are a lot of ways we can attract backers/contributors from many suppliers of the parts, tuners, ect... as they are hungry for the exposure and setting this record would give them world wide air time.

and making it a very collaborative effort, getting lots of sponsors involved, and getting lots of advertising exposure is what will make it a success.

and yes, I'd love to do it here in the USA, but the engineering reality is that NARDO is probably the only place in the world that has a track that is safe and setup for sustained high speed without the side loading on the tires. if anyone knows a better venue, please chime in, they may exist, and not be "accessible" to the general public.

there are a bunch of engineering tricks we can pull that GM didn't bother with, high speed refueling, much larger tanks, better brakes, and it's a "run what ya brung" so we can build whatever engine we want. a large displacement, low rpm, high torque engine, with the proper cooling, in maybe a C7 chassis (for the aero) would make this an attempt more realistic.

at the same time, we have "victory laps" for anyone who wants to get out on the track. even rent some cars, having a few high speed laps in exotic (vette or otherwise) is a thrill you'll not soon forget. I'm renting a lambo for $99 on a groupon in Aug, even if I don't go over the speed limit, it will be worth it!!

am I a dreamer, sure I am! I dreamed of someday owning a ZR-1. I've had 4 of them now. and continue to own one of the best of the best.

I dreamed of owning a nice Twin Turbo C5, got it. car is amazing.

everything worth having starts with a dream, and the vision to make it happen. this vision will take a small army, and a team of people that share the dream.

I have a feeling quite a few folks do. especially engineers that want to showcase their talents and show the world what they can do.

koniegsegg is an example of a small "world class" manufacturer with the ultimate commitment to innovation and quality that sets the bar higher for no other reason than the spirit of innovation. and with a "cost is no object, make the best" attitude, like GM had with the ZR-1, many good things can happen. like warren zevon said, "send lawyers, guns and money" :fahne::fahne:

this record is very important to the ZR-1 gang, and maybe while less so with the corvette crowd in general, there are many that would like to see the record brought home.

the C7 ZR-1 (or whatever it ends up being called) may again have the cajones to take the record with some mods, but IMHO, a "purpose built" car, like the VW did with the Nardo, would be the ticket.

if anyone is interested, or would like to explore this, let me know. I hope to see this before 2020. it will take a few years to muster the funds, plan it out, and do it right.

trust me, others may share this passion and do it before us. and then the bar will only be set higher.

nothing about this is going to be safe!! talk to the original 24 hour record drivers, that track was CRAZY dangerous.

my favorite quote from the track worker "if you run off the track and wreck, you better hope you catch on fire or we probably won't find you until morning"

we all have NO idea, just how courageous that record attempt was.

another attempt at Nardo, would clearly be MUCH safer, even at the higher speeds.

time for me to write up the business proposal I guess, and see who bites!!

[LancePearson]

RkReigh,
Don't forget, there were people back then who knew the value of advertising what they had but GM was in some of those years losing $20 billion dollars a year and the chairman and president (Z champion) both lost their jobs and 21 factories were closed to try and keep the company from going bankrupt. Little wonder the ad money went to volume cars instead of very expensive, most expensive GM had ever tried to sell, the Z, instead when there was not enough to begin with.

Records are good things and the longer term point I'd like to submit is perhaps the best time to do it is when they change technology to something revolutionary like a dohc mid engine turbo rear drive in the Vette. then it would really be possible to emphasize the changes in performance records and measures. The things they are doing in the C7, and I love Corvettes, are pretty much line extensions on the engine, the interior, wind tunnel work on the exterior that their sports cars competitors have done for a few years now so it is only "new" to GM owners, not necessarily others. I'm kind of hoping the C7 is a short stint and the C8 is revolutionary. They didn't have the money in the recent bankruptcy to do the C7 other than as a line extension and things like direct injection into two valve pushrods, variable valve timing, new, heavier, better looking leather interior, etc. with body design for cooling and drag and all are really only new to Corvette, not to their competitors.

I really think they will have to at some point get revolutionary and was surprised they didn't do it with the soon to be C7. I understand why they didn't while in bankruptcy and the government bailing them out but my hopes are for something different down the line.

Then, records should be part of everything that gets done for that car to create demand and knowledge about it.

[Fully Vetted]

...what would be worth doing is if GM ever (not likely) does something revolutionary and instead of pushing old two valve pushrod front engine, rear drive technology puts a dohc small turbo mid engine rear drive car as a Corvette. Then, it is worth setting both speed, endurance, racing records to publish something new and revolutionary. That would then be worth it for GM to publish the new and revolutionary car.

Just another two cents....

Here's a nickles worth to think about. If I'm GM/Chevrolet and I am absolutely committed to the "old pushrod two valve CIB front engine" architecture as it appears they are while everyone else is doing all the DOHC smaller displacement turbo engines then I would definitely have something to prove. What better way for them to prove this technology is not dead then to go out and set an endurance record?

[LancePearson]

Here's a nickles worth to think about. If I'm GM/Chevrolet and I am absolutely committed to the "old pushrod two valve CIB front engine" architecture as it appears they are while everyone else is doing all the DOHC smaller displacement turbo engines then I would definitely have something to prove. What better way for them to prove this technology is not dead then to go out and set an endurance record?

they are already successful on two racing circuits with it, the Rolex DP and the Rolex GT circuits and have proved it quite well. I think they know that at some point they have to change from essentially the heritage of the 1955 265 small block GM engine two valve technology and simply didn't have the money in the bankruptcy to do it with the C7. I'd love to sit in the engineering councils at GM Corvette and hear what they are dreaming about doing. Hard to believe they are dreaming two valve pushrod, front engine naturally aspirated technology but maybe they are, David.

Oh, to be a fly on that wall. Those guys doubtless have one view and the economic realities of pushing what they have is another from the business side.

I'm not against records, setting them, but they should serve a purpose since it is such a huge effort in all ways. Goodyear developed the high speed tire for the technology not just for this car by the way. They sell speed rated tires across many sizes for more than just Corvettes so their $250,000 then was an investment for the future of speed tires I'd wager just used this platform to get it right on.

I'll be quiet now because you've heard my views which are just opinions based on the business aspects of cars mostly.

Lance

[Fully Vetted]

As will I...

[XfireZ51]

Let's not forget that GM certainly has some pretty nice DOHC turbo motors, just not in the V8 config. As long as trucks are the most profitable deal GM has, I'm afraid we'll be living with the simpler OHV motor. Where I see the innovation coming is the integration of IC and electric ala McLaren. In fact, I see electric eliminating turbos etc. Need an extra 200hp, wham, you got it. And you can control it so much more accurately using software to control the motors. Imagine infinitely variable torque splitting in curves w four wheel steering to boot.

[Fully Vetted]

The Porsche 918 Spyder and Ferrari La Ferrari are proof you are correct. Sick, insane power and docile as a Taurus.

[LancePearson]

The best 24 hour endurance test is june 22, 23 on the circuit de la sarthe...24 hours of le mans and Corvette racing will be there...in some ways a better endurance test because the course is varied and competitive with turns, straights, chicanes, kinks and narrow track...tougher than 24 of daytona, a banked track. Lets see how vettes do at le mans for 24 hours. Race rules will controll engine and body as all races on tracks do now by class.

P.s. mclarens are fabulous, balanced and fast...very $$$$$, but super.

[Fully Vetted]

...P.s. mclarens are fabulous, balanced and fast...very $$$$$, but super.

I knew there was something we could agree on!

[LancePearson]

Lol...let us see how vettes do at circuit de la sarthe june 22, 23...some kinda test at Le Mans

[LancePearson]

Mclaren models I have seen also have perfect balance..driver in center of car, passengers one each behind on sides. Good fore and aft, side to side balance.

[XfireZ51]

To me the McLaren is the "smartest" car out there. It's pretty brilliantly engineered. Truly a balanced automobile.

I love Lemans. The greatest race IMO.

[Fully Vetted]

To me the McLaren is the "smartest" car out there. It's pretty brilliantly engineered. Truly a balanced automobile.

I love Lemans. The greatest race IMO.

No doubt about it. Through great engineering and no compromise execution they have developed supercars that are not only extremely fast and agile but comfortable to drive. Supercar owners no longer have to have their legs shoved over to one side or have water dripping on their feet or absolute 0 visibility. If I had the coin and was in that market McLaren would have all of my money.

[LancePearson]

Le Mans, the Circuit de la Sartha track, is the classic in road racing and for 24 hours would be some kind of endurance test better than a staged relatively constant speed test...tougher with highly varied braking and accelerating rifs over and over and over...coming into corners at 175 then braking to 60 then accelerating out again all the way around, day, night, etc. Corvette racing will be there with current Vettes meeting race rules and conditions so there will be a highly relevant test for endurance of all major marques entered on classic grounds June 22, 23.

the McLaren latest is some kind of car, a less than 4.0 liter hybred scooping out 903 bhp and using electric twin T. generated boost of 176 hp, instant on or off, no lag.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mclaren-automotive-announces-powertrain-for-the-mclaren-p1-192043171.html

I'd think an electric motor turbo would be better than exhaust generated turbo charger since you might be able to place the fans/motor in different spots in the engine compartment or car for that matter than if restricted to exhaust gases and the lag would be electric. DC motors are highly controllable and uniform with great power possibilities driving gear driven fans. They aren't the only ones working on it either.

Cutting edge unfortunately seems to be in England, Europe and to some degree Ford who is well into the turbo world with many engines and dohc.

Wish Vettes had the inclination to do it. it's also why back in the 1980's when our Z's were designed it is so extraordinary that the LT5 got built at all. I wrote for the newsletter two different articles about the process and am still amazed it got done at all in the culture of the day and situation of the day. Gm is still too big, still too bureaucratic, still has too much capacity so not everything has changed. I'd love to hear what the working engine engineers there have to say they are dreaming of working on.

Lance

[XfireZ51]

David,

BTW,

I'm going to be in Dallas area next week beginning Wednesday pm.

[Fully Vetted]

Oh, man. Unfortunately I'm leaving Tuesday morning for Alaska for 2 weeks. I would've loved to met up. Hopefully you'll be returning soon?

[LancePearson]

David,
Alaska fun or Alaska work?
Lance

[Fully Vetted]

Fun. We will be celebrating both of our birthdays and our 25th anniversary on the boat. Not as brave as Mr. Voter to drive the Z up!

[LancePearson]

Big capitol letters: ENJOY! Congrats to you both. Alaska is on the list.....

Lance

[Fully Vetted]

Thank you, Sir. And I will do my best.

[rkreigh]

got to see and sit in a mclearan spyder a few weeks ago and also see a nice grand sport buggati (sold for over 2 mil) I loved the spyder and wish I had the coin!!

GM absolutely should move to a twin turbo DOHC platform soon as many of the worlds finest have (albeit at a much higher price tag). GM new block, crank and reuse most of the ecotec DFT turbo parts and crank up the boost to come up with something in the 700 HP range pretty easily

as many of you remember, John L was piloting a 1200 hp ecotec turbo 4 when he crashed and ultimately died.

a new more exotic vette would be great to "showcase" the technology.

but in the meantime, the sponsorship, planning, and all the substantial administrivia to promote and organize an event is needed.

I'm up for taking the record now (hell, use the nelson DOHC LT5 clone engine, it would work just fine, and he might "sponsor" the engine to get the free R&D)

another concept is like GM, don't just use ONE car. a new modded ZR-1, a Gen 7, maybe the old school ZR-1 plenty of room on the track to have them all hot lap without getting in each others way and that way if one car breaks (likely) you maximize the chances of one of the cars making it.

just renting the track and safety safari is a big chunk of change.

I'd love to see what a nice 415 could do with a few mods to prep it. maybe graham would run John Ls old yellow bird it was capable of 218 and with a few more tweaks could do 210 plus sustained which is what it will take to average 201.

lots of things to think about.

with the 400+ hour durability testing the LT1 and LT5 engines do, there isn't too much doubt that GM builds an engine with enough HP and reliability to do it. the aero, drivetrain, tires, and all the other durability issues come into plan.

the cool thing is that GM builds a variety of "near 200" mph cars bone stock out of the box with the new C6 Z06 and the ZR-1 capable of 205 and then some. lower it, regear it, load up on safety, strip the cats off, and lets see what it will do!!!

and just having the legend there, and having an opportunity for the old c4 ZR-1 to "do it again" would be enough for me. I indeed think it's possible.

just for fun, throw in one of those lemans C6Rs setup right. they definitely have both the speed and durability too.

possibilities are there aren't they?? just need to promote the event, and attract the fold, everything else is feasible, and most of all FUN!!!

hopefully I'll be able to afford to ship the LSV over and make a few laps myself!! I'm not geared for 200, but I'll bet she'll still pull 190 even with the 4.10s and some big ol rear tires :)

[TCurtner]

Now, wouldn't it be the nuts to see an old ZR-1 beat the old record.

Oh man...that might be a rallying cry!! Perhaps the forum members could field a car, and we could - as a 'team' - surpass the old record??? What a trip! :salute:

[LancePearson]

Good idea on the turbos and dohc.

This year's June 30 Pike's Peak International Hill climb with Sebastian Loeb driving a Peugot race car with twin turbo V6 of under 4.0 liter pushing an admitted (may be more) 900 hp destroyed the prior record up the 12 miles by more than a minute. Second to him was Rhys Millen in a Hyundai Genesis with same thing but 4.0 liter twin turbo. Loeb's flat track times? 0-62 mph...1.8 seconds...and to 124 was something like 7 plus seconds. Light weight tube frame race cars with panels hung on them to simulate a production name but man, can you push dohc with turbos.

Lance

[Kevin]

Pirate ZR-1 crew...just like old times.

[vandornjim]

Pirate ZR-1 crew...just like old times.

Ah alas, boys and girls. There comes a time in life when you just got to know when to stand back and let the young guns get their chance. The good 'ol LT5 was a unique item some 20 years ago but technology has definitely gained in those years.

The LT-5 had (and still does) have a breather problem whereas unusual amounts of oil are piped up into the plenum and ultimately, down the pipes into the combustion chambers. The LT5 also has an incredible rotating mass weight which could be trouble in the long run. Anyway, lots more where that came from.

The cars of today are much lighter and more nimble, not to mention the drivetrain packages. In our old Hot Rod days as a kid, we were happy with 350 real horsepower. We had to pump up the compression, add wicked cams and we got 4 mpg. Ohhhh those days at Lions Drag Strip.:)

Todays cars are a complete package. No breather problems, 650hp, quite, 30mpg, and 200 MPH. Of course lots and lots would have to be done to make a production car compete, if possible, but there's a whole lot of good starting points with the new technology. Heck, Graham and his boys are getting over 1,000hp!!! (I think 1400 too ;))

Every once in a while, usually on Weeknds, there are strange sounds coming from across my fence with GM, which sounds a whole lot like a huffer going off. Once in a while I walk over and catch a glimpse...OK, maybe 2....

There's plenty more to come folks.

I just love to take the 'ol Weekndr out once in awhile and listen to that engine. No matter how hard they try, they can't duplicate that sound of 32 valves on a cool night in Bowling Green....

[Daniel_Mc]

Jim,
Yes, the cars had their share of problems and the cars of today are defiantly pumping out more HP with less weight. But they lack something and I can't put my finger on it but the cars now just don't do it for me. Flashy yes, fast yes, fun to drive, yes. Still the new cars are lacking... They don't seem to have the soul that the car once had, if that makes any sense. The people that made all of this happen way back when, I feel, were the reason these cars felt so special. Not just the Z's but the C4 in general, it was a hard time within the world and GM it wasn't about the latest and greatest. It was about being the best and the PEOPLE made that happen.

-Daniel

BTW I grew up in the 90's and when the 1991's were built I was in 1st grade so I’m not reliving the muscle car era. Just sayin… :mrgreen:

[TCurtner]

Ok...Jim is of course, technically, and computer-wise 100% correct. BUT (yeah, here it comes)...there is SOMETHING else besides the HP wars and the zoom zoom exteriors. I'm going to try to identify it. Right here.
OK - for the record, I've had (this will sound like I have an addiction, and yes, perhaps it is so, but let's stick to the topic and not go into my trading maniacism):
(2) 2008 viper coupes, (3) C6 Z06s, (2) C6 z51s, several C5s, C4s - many modded -and various and asundry other sports cars, many of which i modded the heck out of myself (how about a 427 in a datsun 280z vert with sidepipes??).

So why the monologue? What has been my favorite performance car - overall - in all of this fanaticism? Well you guessed it, the ZR-1. Why? I'm honestly NOT completely sure. But i CAN identify some reasons...Prof McClellan was really on to something with the C4 and in particular the King. The cockpit is second-to none (not the goofy 80s buttons of course, but the seating, the view and even the kludgy gauges of the early models, and the seasoned positive changes of the later years. The shifter placement, the view over the hood, the road feel, much more) - the sport seats are unmatched to me by anything except the Viper seats (again, we are talking a major manufacturer, and production cars in all of this). I mean REALLY, good grief, the C6 seats suck. I want to be part of the car, one with the car, when i go quickly. And the C4 does this for me. Frankly one of the coolest parts of the design is that you DO have to crawl down into it - i feel like I am putting the car on (I'm 6'3") not just getting into it.
On the track, the feel of the Z is really just unmatched - safe, secure, controlled, never out-of-kilter. i spun the Viper a few times (stayed on track, so no worries) but never the Z. Yes, the Z has less power/torque by over 40% than say the 08 viper, but really on most tracks it's just as entertaining. And we ALL KNOW that with reasonable mods, and weight reduction (even the stock ACR 4th gen weighs in at 34xx lbs) the Z can approach the power/weight ratio of the viper (Don't know why i'm on the Viper - i guess because it is the closest 'feel' to the Z of all of them - the most visceral).
I know this is all apples to oranges to peaches to green beans, but there is MAGIC in this car. The sound of that motor! And much more... I am really considering just modifying my car to the moon, and seeing where it takes me vs. getting the new viper (or the new vette, or a 430/458, etc. etc.
Seriously, part of my reasoning is monetary rationality - the $ spent. For the dollars, it is very difficult to approach the performance of the 90s ZR-1 with anything out there. And with minimal mods, the Z is moving towards the upper 15% of cars available even today (oh yes, and still get 24 - 27 mpg on the highway). And have you priced new PS2s for a viper? I can still re-shoe my toy for well under 700!!
To sum it up, it is still - even today - a hard package to beat when you consider all of it. And HEY, did you ever try to insure that 350,000 McLaren?? Get serious, i have full coverage for just over 300/year.
So now that i've thrown the gauntlet for old vs new, and realizing that it is entirely personal, what say you?
BTW - i still want to go out and beat the old record, even if by 5mph and 1 minute =D>

[tf95ZR1]

Great post, Thomas!

FYI, the designation "LT1" has to do with how many posts you have.
When you hit 100, it will magically change to "LT5"

[TCurtner]

Great post, Thomas!

FYI, the designation "LT1" has to do with how many posts you have.
When you hit 100, it will magically change to "LT5"

well! ok, thanks! Something to look forward to...:cheers:

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Great post, Thomas!

Yup!:dancing

[vandornjim]

Jim,
Yes, the cars had their share of problems and the cars of today are defiantly pumping out more HP with less weight. But they lack something and I can't put my finger on it but the cars now just don't do it for me. Flashy yes, fast yes, fun to drive, yes. Still the new cars are lacking... They don't seem to have the soul that the car once had, if that makes any sense. The people that made all of this happen way back when, I feel, were the reason these cars felt so special. Not just the Z's but the C4 in general, it was a hard time within the world and GM it wasn't about the latest and greatest. It was about being the best and the PEOPLE made that happen.

-Daniel

BTW I grew up in the 90's and when the 1991's were built I was in 1st grade so I’m not reliving the muscle car era. Just sayin… :mrgreen:

Oh here we go again with the bait and switch routine....:dancing

YOU guys are all full of emotion and pride with the ZR-1. Duh. You think I've been involved as much as I have because I like c6's? The subject guys, as I replied to was, the concept of running a ZR-1 in the WRR, not whether I wash the Weekndr in my underwear....late at night......with the beagle's favorite toy. :p

If you were in first grade Daniel, then you missed out on some of the most memorable times you could ask for. Yes, the ZR-1 was arguably the most sensational launch of an automobile of the times. The organization of the owners and our continuing loyalty, is just a testament to its legacy. I HOPE YOU CONTINUE TO ENJOY IT.

Oh....one more thing.....the sister car to the EDS ZR-1 was an L98. It didn't do bad either!

No, a potential run for the record would be an effort for sure. And costly. If it were important today, I'd think McLaren or Mercedes would have a go at it.
Now I HAVE been working on another Corvette performance type event. Anyone ever hear of something called........

THE CANNONBALL RUN!!???:fahne:

[TCurtner]

Oh here we go again with the bait and switch routine....:dancing



Now I HAVE been working on another Corvette performance type event. Anyone ever hear of something called........

THE CANNONBALL RUN!!???:fahne:

CANNONBALL RUN???!!!?? Count me in!!!!!

[BigJohn]

Oh here we go again with the bait and switch routine....:dancing

YOU guys are all full of emotion and pride with the ZR-1. Duh. You think I've been involved as much as I have because I like c6's? The subject guys, as I replied to was, the concept of running a ZR-1 in the WRR, not whether I wash the Weekndr in my underwear....late at night......with the beagle's favorite toy. :p

If you were in first grade Daniel, then you missed out on some of the most memorable times you could ask for. Yes, the ZR-1 was arguably the most sensational launch of an automobile of the times. The organization of the owners and our continuing loyalty, is just a testament to its legacy. I HOPE YOU CONTINUE TO ENJOY IT.

Oh....one more thing.....the sister car to the EDS ZR-1 was an L98. It didn't do bad either!

No, a potential run for the record would be an effort for sure. And costly. If it were important today, I'd think McLaren or Mercedes would have a go at it.
Now I HAVE been working on another Corvette performance type event. Anyone ever hear of something called........

THE CANNONBALL RUN!!???:fahne:


Oh, no no no not more jail time!!!

:o

[LancePearson]

Instead of the Cannonball why not do the Big Bend Open in Texas? That looks like a lot of fun where you can run your Z two ways about 55 miles each way at a speed time trial selecting the speed you want to try and run. I've thought about it and concluded the costs to get there and back and total are too much but if one were closer I would really like to do that. You take a navigator along and have even more fun.

[TCurtner]

Instead of the Cannonball why not do the Big Bend Open in Texas? That looks like a lot of fun where you can run your Z two ways about 55 miles each way at a speed time trial selecting the speed you want to try and run. I've thought about it and concluded the costs to get there and back and total are too much but if one were closer I would really like to do that. You take a navigator along and have even more fun.

...or just go run HPDE or Wheel2Wheel on any of a number of tracks with SCCA or NASA and fulfill the need for speed....=D>

[Daniel_Mc]

not whether I wash the Weekndr in my underwear....late at night......with the beagle's favorite toy.

Great mental image... :eek:

If you were in first grade Daniel, then you missed out on some of the most memorable times you could ask for. Yes, the ZR-1 was arguably the most sensational launch of an automobile of the times. The organization of the owners and our continuing loyalty, is just a testament to its legacy. I HOPE YOU CONTINUE TO ENJOY IT.


Unfortunately I was in early grade school and if you ask most of my friends they'll say I still belong back in 1st grade. However I will argue that I am at least at the 5th grade level at this point!!! Thankyouverymuch

I do feel "cheated" to an extent, kind of like getting to the best party ever the day after with no booze. Talking with everyone involved it was just a great time for all. The people, the cars, the racing, and the records. After speaking with yourself at BG this year it sounds like I missed out on one great party out in the desert LOL I have been in the C4's for about half my life now and have been attending The Gathering since 2001. I hope to continue to enjoy this hobby for years to come.

Oh....one more thing.....the sister car to the EDS ZR-1 was an L98. It didn't do bad either!

No, the L98 car sure didn't. Lots of controversy surrounding the L98 car now....

THE CANNONBALL RUN!!???

Now that would be fun. However in the past 10 years or so the prices have really gone up for that event haven't they?

-Daniel

[XfireZ51]

I remember when it was a REAL Canonball Baker Sea to Shining Sea Memorial Trophy Race. They'd leave Manhattan at midnight headed west. Wasn't it Gurney and Yates that made it to LA in 33hrs driving a Ferrari Daytona?

[TCurtner]

One sentimental journey:

http://www.caranddriver.com/columns/brock-yates-even-the-cops-liked-the-cannonball-column

[LGAFF]

http://jalopnik.com/meet-the-guy-who-drove-across-the-u-s-in-a-record-28-h-1454092837

[Kevin]

shame Curits doesn't post here. i'm sure he'd shed some light on big bend.

[USAFPILOT]

http://jalopnik.com/meet-the-guy-who-drove-across-the-u-s-in-a-record-28-h-1454092837

Cool story, but CL55's suck ballz.