Car acting up........................again.

[Z51JEFF]

Since Ive owned this car 3 times the car wouldn't crank over.So I plugged in a new clutch safety switch,no crank.with the key in the ignition the SECURITY light goes out,VATS good so that leaves the starter.Ive got an NOS starter just would like to know if everything points to a bad starter,the cars only go 20,000 miles but the first time this happened the car had maybe 12,000 miles.Thanks.

[Dynomite]

Since Ive owned this car 3 times the car wouldn't crank over.So I plugged in a new clutch safety switch,no crank.with the key in the ignition the SECURITY light goes out,VATS good so that leaves the starter.Ive got an NOS starter just would like to know if everything points to a bad starter,the cars only go 20,000 miles but the first time this happened the car had maybe 12,000 miles.Thanks.

I have had the same thing happen on a 90' and after I towed it for a start....got home and it fired right up. I would have liked to hot wire the starter (purple wire) when that happens to see if it is the starter or starter ground circuit. Or check that purple wire for 12 volts when I turn the switch to start. I lean toward ground circuit or sticky starter solenoid. Another indication would be if when you turn the ignition key to start do the lights dim for example indicating a current draw to the starter solenoid/starter.

I assume the solenoid does not move (no clicking indicating the Starter Solenoid moved). If the Solenoid clicked/moved...then bad Solenoid contacts or bad connection Battery cable (Positive) to starter/battery or bad ground (Negative) engine to battery.

This will be interesting what you find. And yes...I WILL install a relay in the start circuit of the 90' identical to what I have on the 91'. This is one of those intermittent issues and does sound like poor electrical connections in either the Starter Negative Connections or Starter Positive Connections.

I think it is pretty easy to ungum a gummed up Solenoid and Solenoid Contacts but have never done that on the LT5 Starter.

Starter Relay, Wiring Harness, Battery, and Plugs Tricks (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-3.html#post1581564085)
Electrical Ground Connections and Clutch Start Switch Linkage (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-3.html#post1581564089)

[WVZR-1]

Since Ive owned this car 3 times the car wouldn't crank over.So I plugged in a new clutch safety switch,no crank.with the key in the ignition the SECURITY light goes out,VATS good so that leaves the starter.Ive got an NOS starter just would like to know if everything points to a bad starter,the cars only go 20,000 miles but the first time this happened the car had maybe 12,000 miles.Thanks.

I always understood that the '90 & '91 experienced this situation sometimes frequently regardless of miles. Some I understand carry a 24" long 1/2" diameter heavy metal rod to "poke at the starter" to get it to crank. Smack it 4 - 5 times life is supposed to get good!

The starter enable relay under left side of dash will sometimes cure the situation and others have modified the starter circuit with a relay of their own to remedy the situation. The '92+ cars have a different starter motor circuit and don't have the pronlems.

Dwight should be able to tell you where to "POKE" !!!

See this single post for a temporary "remedy" - what I want you to see is the comment by James Britt attatched at the end of the post:

http://zr1.net/forum/showpost.php?p=147329&postcount=10

That "remedy" should work every time just like James mentions. I'd keep my NOS starter in the box. If I were to go under the plenum I'd spend probably less than $30 to replace the contacts and other small parts that seem to fix every ND starter out there:

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTricks/Starter.shtml#QuickFix

[XfireZ51]

So it looks like Britt is feeding a direct 12v signal to the ECM allowing the starter to engage and bypassing all the potential sources of the voltage drop. When I got my BR ZR, I had the no start situation and I installed a bypass on the clutch switch. I realize about the possible start in gear, but I've driven manuals all my life and my muscle memory always pushes in the clutch and makes certain trans is in neutral prior to ignition. I could have a little plaque made and fixed to the steering wheel I suppose. However, haven't had a no start since. If you ever pull the plenum, take the opportunity to do a starter rebuild. Kits are available pretty cheaply and it takes 30 minutes.

[WVZR-1]

So it looks like Britt is feeding a direct 12v signal to the ECM allowing the starter to engage and bypassing all the potential sources of the voltage drop. When I got my BR ZR, I had the no start situation and I installed a bypass on the clutch switch. I realize about the possible start in gear, but I've driven manuals all my life and my muscle memory always pushes in the clutch and makes certain trans is in neutral prior to ignition. I could have a little plaque made and fixed to the steering wheel I suppose. However, haven't had a no start since. If you ever pull the plenum, take the opportunity to do a starter rebuild. Kits are available pretty cheaply and it takes 30 minutes.

I don't see where the ECM is involved in the "temporary crank" procedure. The only mention of the computer at all is just the fact that the starter harness leads are in a conduit that's routed near the computer. The ECM is involved in only the VATS cranking related issues and there's no VATS related issues here at all!

By-passing the clutch safety. Why? If you were that concerned that it was creating a repeated issue then it means the circuit needs attention. If you're not ambitious enough to correct the start enable relay circuit, then carry a short jumper to by-pass the switch if needed.

[Brad Sewell]

Timing is everything... I have been working on my no start the past couple of days.It didn't occur for 6-8 months and now it occurs once every 20 or so starts. The article in Technet says basically the same thing as above.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to safely expose the copper inside the purple wire? I have not been able to find a probe sharp enough to pierce the insulation and I don't really want to strip it and leave it exposed.

Any ideas or proven solutions?

[Z51JEFF]

Thanks for the tips everybody,where can I find a small parts rebuild kit for the starter?

[WVZR-1]

Timing is everything... I have been working on my no start the past couple of days.It didn't occur for 6-8 months and now it occurs once every 20 or so starts. The article in Technet says basically the same thing as above.

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to safely expose the copper inside the purple wire? I have not been able to find a probe sharp enough to pierce the insulation and I don't really want to strip it and leave it exposed.

Any ideas or proven solutions?

If it's a "high-miler" and I had reason to be under the plenum I'd consider doing the contacts in the starter and a couple other small pieces. There's many Internet tutorials that mention NipponDenso issues and it makes no difference which ND starter on which brand. The one I pointed to is from a "car guy" that was just struggling with a "no start".

The battery needs to be 100% not 97 or 98% - the "no starts" if the battery is weak will generally manifest themselves in a "hot start" situation. Let the car cool and it will again crank. I've never tried to probe or pierce the purple wire but it would seem not that difficult a task. A quality fused test light should provide I would think enough to pierce it.If it's sharp enough to make you "bleed" it should pierce the insulation.

Here's an old post by Jerry that I believe I used many years ago when doing exactly what you're doing. After reading Jerry's open the entire thread and look at the post right after his. I don't know about that being a "fix" but it's from GK!

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/4194782-post11.html

[WVZR-1]

Thanks for the tips everybody,where can I find a small parts rebuild kit for the starter?

Here: http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/densoparts.html

and check the link in the first one I posted. I believe there's other less expensive mentioned and the dimensions of the various are mentioned. There's maybe 6 or so different. I used to know which our car used but I'd have to dig hard for that information now.

[-=Jeff=-]

I added a relay to fix mine. It was installed between the clutch safety switch and the starter solenoid. The new relay is wired to the battery and the output of the clutch switch controls the relay I added. This along with a new set of contacts for the starter and so far so good

[Dynomite]

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to safely expose the copper inside the purple wire? I have not been able to find a probe sharp enough to pierce the insulation and I don't really want to strip it and leave it exposed.

Any ideas or proven solutions?

Use a sewing needle :cheers:
Push the sewing needle into or through the wire with a pliers ;)

[chriskinzel]

Ok, for all of you NCRS guys this is not the fix. But for everyone else who wants your car to start I found a fix. I also have had the no-start issue, too many times. I have bypassed the clutch safety switch, and installed a relay. After the car got warm the only way to start is was by pushing it. Once when it needed to be started my wife was driving and I was pushing, it took off, ii fell and broke a finger! No more push starting! I ran a wire from the purple wire to a momentary switch attached to a hot wire. It is now 'hot wired' with the switch oh the drivers hush panel just below the steering wheel. I have not had to push start it in over a year. I know that this doesn't fix the problem. Ii can't seem to find the problem. But, at least for me, kit is a good work around. Let me know what problem you find and I will try fixing it on mine.
Good luck
Chris:handshak:

[WVZR-1]

Ok, for all of you NCRS guys this is not the fix. But for everyone else who wants your car to start I found a fix. I also have had the no-start issue, too many times. I have bypassed the clutch safety switch, and installed a relay. After the car got warm the only way to start is was by pushing it. Once when it needed to be started my wife was driving and I was pushing, it took off, ii fell and broke a finger! No more push starting! I ran a wire from the purple wire to a momentary switch attached to a hot wire. It is now 'hot wired' with the switch oh the drivers hush panel just below the steering wheel. I have not had to push start it in over a year. I know that this doesn't fix the problem. Ii can't seem to find the problem. But, at least for me, kit is a good work around. Let me know what problem you find and I will try fixing it on mine.
Good luck
Chris:handshak:

That is essentially what is accomplished with the wire and a probe except that the clutch-safety isn't by-passed. The replacement of the starter enable relay or the addition of another relay into the circuit accomplishes I believe the fix avoiding in your case the momentary switch. It is certainly a viable temporary solution. The actual fault in the system could actually end up being in the column at the ignition wiring there so it does require some diagnostics. Once it's accomplished it should be a fix that isn't required again.

The '92+ owners don't or shouldn't have the issues. If there's a hot no-start or a no-start situation that isn't a VATS issue then theirs is a part failure most likely the starter contacts etc.

[XfireZ51]

WV,

I re-read Britt's post in a previous thread. It said the harness on the computer side and I thought he was accessing an ECM circuit. My mis-read.

[scottfab]

Since Ive owned this car 3 times the car wouldn't crank over.So I plugged in a new clutch safety switch,no crank.with the key in the ignition the SECURITY light goes out,VATS good so that leaves the starter.Ive got an NOS starter just would like to know if everything points to a bad starter,the cars only go 20,000 miles but the first time this happened the car had maybe 12,000 miles.Thanks.

Jeff given that you have a 91 and you just replaced the clutch switch here is how I'd proceed and in the order I'd do it. Assuming you've verified the battery is in GREAT shape:
1. Try to start it. If it doesn't start pull the connector to the clutch switch and run a wire straight from the purple wire there to the "+" on the battery. Make SURE your in neutral. If the starter cranks go to step2. If it doesn't looks like your doing a plenum pull and some starter work.

2. Either your new clutch switch is not adjusted for depth correctly when the peddle is pushed
OR
the starter relay under the dash is bad
OR
the ignition switch in the dash is bad.

[Z51JEFF]

Ok, for all of you NCRS guys this is not the fix. But for everyone else who wants your car to start I found a fix. I also have had the no-start issue, too many times. I have bypassed the clutch safety switch, and installed a relay. After the car got warm the only way to start is was by pushing it. Once when it needed to be started my wife was driving and I was pushing, it took off, ii fell and broke a finger! No more push starting! I ran a wire from the purple wire to a momentary switch attached to a hot wire. It is now 'hot wired' with the switch oh the drivers hush panel just below the steering wheel. I have not had to push start it in over a year. I know that this doesn't fix the problem. Ii can't seem to find the problem. But, at least for me, kit is a good work around. Let me know what problem you find and I will try fixing it on mine.
Good luck
Chris:handshak:

To be honest with you,I could care less about the NCRS crowd,never a member,never will be.Anybody know where I can find the right relay,cant seem to find it here in town.

[Dynomite]

To be honest with you,I could care less about the NCRS crowd,never a member,never will be.Anybody know where I can find the right relay,cant seem to find it here in town.

Concur :thumbsup:

If you are talking about the Start relay where you get direct current from Battery to Starter Solenoid......
You need a couple 3/8 inch and a couple 1/4 inch female spade electrical connectors also.

60/80 amp rugged, high power automotive SPDT relay Single Pole, Double Throw (http://www.ebay.com/itm/110373059322?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649)

Starter Relay, Wiring Harness, Battery, and Plugs Tricks (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-zr-1-discussion/3005470-tech-info-lt5-modifications-rebuild-tricks-500-hp-3.html#post1581564085)

[scottfab]

To be honest with you,I could care less about the NCRS crowd,never a member,never will be.Anybody know where I can find the right relay,cant seem to find it here in town.

Make sure the relay is well seated. They've been known to work themselves out. Also there are 3 maybe 4 relays just like it under the dash. For testing purposes you could swap them.

Another source of Info is"
http://zr1netregistry.com/Information/TechNet/%5BAllArticles%5D/tabid/262/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/68/No-Start-Engine-Wont-Crank.aspx

[WVZR-1]

To be honest with you,I could care less about the NCRS crowd,never a member,never will be.Anybody know where I can find the right relay,cant seem to find it here in town.

GM # 25520198 woild have been an OE original. It's still available but not stocked at every PDC. It's probably a 3 - 4 day SPO from a dealer if it's not on their shelf.

You can check a cross reference with NAPA and others.

NAPA should be but check either an AR272 or AR272SB, CarQuest 56-1556, or a Wells 19273. I would think one of those should be available locally!

[Z51JEFF]

Jeff given that you have a 91 and you just replaced the clutch switch here is how I'd proceed and in the order I'd do it. Assuming you've verified the battery is in GREAT shape:
1. Try to start it. If it doesn't start pull the connector to the clutch switch and run a wire straight from the purple wire there to the "+" on the battery. Make SURE your in neutral. If the starter cranks go to step2. If it doesn't looks like your doing a plenum pull and some starter work.

2. Either your new clutch switch is not adjusted for depth correctly when the peddle is pushed
OR
the starter relay under the dash is bad
OR
the ignition switch in the dash is bad.
I didnt have the new clutch switch installed in the car,just plugged it in and made the switch with my hand while cranking the key.I hope its not the ignition switch.

[Z51JEFF]

Now,in theory,without making any changes if this were to happen to somebody would a simple jump start be enough of a jolt to jog the starter in the inop car?This is my plan,replace the under dash OEM relay and put a second relay in the car.

[WVZR-1]

Now,in theory,without making any changes if this were to happen to somebody would a simple jump start be enough of a jolt to jog the starter in the inop car?This is my plan,replace the under dash OEM relay and put a second relay in the car.

I'd say that a "JUMP START" should be avoided if at all possible. A jump start is "never" a good idea and a last resort.

Regarding your comment about the ignition switch, it's very easy to inspect the condition of the 2 electrical connectors that attatch to the ignition switch and if they display discoloration it might require a further look. The switch is a straight forward inexpensive replacement. The connectors easily sourced and terminals with wires transfered.

I mentioned opening the full thread that I linked to where Jerry's comments were contained and I thought someone might recall and "remark" regarding it. They didn't so here's the link to Gordon K's comment regarding the starter enable relay that followed Jerry's

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/4239033-post12.html

It mentions this: I talked to Gordon Killebrew this weekend about your problem. He say to go to the starter relay to the left of the steering column, locate the black wire with yellow tracer. Tee into the wire and run it to a good ground and that should take care of the problem. He has seen this problem many times before. I strongly recommend that if you have any questsions, call him. It's well worth the small charge and he knows more about C4's than the rest of us put together. Good luck again.

[GOLDCYLON]

Ok, for all of you NCRS guys this is not the fix. But for everyone else who wants your car to start I found a fix. I also have had the no-start issue, too many times. I have bypassed the clutch safety switch, and installed a relay. After the car got warm the only way to start is was by pushing it. Once when it needed to be started my wife was driving and I was pushing, it took off, ii fell and broke a finger! No more push starting! I ran a wire from the purple wire to a momentary switch attached to a hot wire. It is now 'hot wired' with the switch oh the drivers hush panel just below the steering wheel. I have not had to push start it in over a year. I know that this doesn't fix the problem. Ii can't seem to find the problem. But, at least for me, kit is a good work around. Let me know what problem you find and I will try fixing it on mine.
Good luck
Chris:handshak:

Your lucky thats all that happened we had a member here run over his foot with the rear tires trying a push as well. The bypass is the only way to fix this defect from GM.

[Z51JEFF]

It mentions this: I talked to Gordon Killebrew this weekend about your problem. He say to go to the starter relay to the left of the steering column, locate the black wire with yellow tracer. Tee into the wire and run it to a good ground and that should take care of the problem. He has seen this problem many times before. I strongly recommend that if you have any questsions, call him. It's well worth the small charge and he knows more about C4's than the rest of us put together. Good luck again.

The above post is from someone else's question in regards to the same issue:Has anybody done this,has it proven to help the problem?Ive located an OEM relay and found the 60-80 amp relay-thank DYNOMITE- Ill do all 3 solutions if it means not taking the plenum off.................again.