WATER /METH INJ Dyno Run results

[Tony Davila]

Okay guys I ran my car on the dyno and here is what I have found. Below is the original thread about the water meth injections.
http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=11233
Dyno run was done with an outside air temp of 64F. Water Meth injection is more popularly used with boosted vehicles since the air intake temp is heated up from the compression of air and the water meth injection cools the compressed air thus allowing for more usable power not being robbed from the hot air. Naturally aspirated high compression engines such as ours will benefit from the use of the water meth injection when the outside air temp is high, say in the mid to high 90s and your car is breathing in all that hot air off the asphalt.

TEST #1 BASE RUN
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i66/Zrace1/BaseHP2Feb13_zps5017a61f.jpg
BASE Run no Water/Meth injection. Chart above. Temp 64F, Water Temp 180F at WOT.

Test #2 50/50 mix
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i66/Zrace1/50_50mix2Feb13_zpsc4293956.jpg
Chart above was with 50/50 mix injection. I think this run is void due to I had a 5 min cool down then ran WOT. Upon completion my engine temp was 198F. I believe my engine was heat soaked and therefore my power was down. The injection of the 50/50 mix did not make a difference during that run.

TEST #3
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i66/Zrace1/7525InjRun_zps0cf24dbc.jpg
Test #3 was run with a 75%met and 25% water mixture. I allowed the engine to cool back down to the original run temp. It resulted in 2 more HP and 6 lbs of torque more. I believe with a little more Meth it might have been more.

So for all you guys wondering how it will affect your LT5, now you know. I will continue to tweek it with a little more meth in the future. It seems to run better with more Meth than the original 50/50 mix. The benefits as stated are that it does raise your octane and help clean your pistons and valves when using it. During the summer it may be the best aid in reducing the heat in the intake and allow for full power. As you know the LT5 does not like heat.

I like the results, let me know if you have any questions.

[Schrade]

First run with no water/meth ... (NO water and NO meth???) That was just about equal to the best pull...

:confused:

[Tony Davila]

First run with no water/meth ... (NO water and NO meth???) That was just about equal to the best pull...

:confused:
Yep....... only 2 more HP and 6 lbs of torque added. Soooooo with the outside air temp at a nice 64F the results may not seem so impressive. But.... when the air temp is 95F plus, the water meth will cool down the air going into your engine and may return HP that would otherwise been decreased due to hot intake air temp.

[Schrade]

Makes sense there Sir! (more twist than mine, with OR without!)

[XfireZ51]

Tony,

What r the mods on the car again?

[Tony Davila]

Tony,

What r the mods on the car again?

Self ported heads and intake/ Inj Housing
Stage 1 reground cams (Aaron Scott) intake and exhaust
Watson Headers 1 3/4
B&B 3" exhaust with X-pipe
Alum Flywheel
3.91 gears
and bling....

[XfireZ51]

Stage 1 Cams. Assuming intake and exhaust then, correct?

[Tony Davila]

Stage 1 Cams. Assuming intake and exhaust then, correct?

Yes Sir, correct.

[ZZZZZR1]

Yes Sir, correct.

Tony,

We should document this and put it in the Newsletter!!!

Interested?

Great stuff!

:cheers:

David

[Tony Davila]

Tony,

We should document this and put it in the Newsletter!!!

Interested?

Great stuff!

:cheers:

David

Dave, PM sent...

[XfireZ51]

Tony,

I notice the dyno sheet says these are STD correction numbers. Any chance you have SAE correction or would these be available? If SGC has those on file, it can be easily converted using DynoJets WinPep software.

[Tony Davila]

Tony,

I notice the dyno sheet says these are STD correction numbers. Any chance you have SAE correction or would these be available? If SGC has those on file, it can be easily converted using DynoJets WinPep software.

I can get those from Aaron if necessary. Uncorrected HP was 447HP I heard him say. I'll give him a call later.

[alwayscode390]

Awesome test, thanks for posting that up for us.

Was your tune changed at all? I wonder if you could tweak more from messing with the timing, since your running higher octane when on the meth? ---

[Tony Davila]

Awesome test, thanks for posting that up for us.

Was your tune changed at all? I wonder if you could tweak more from messing with the timing, since your running higher octane when on the meth? ---

cool stuff. I think running pure alchy would help on my engine as the CR has been bumped to 12-1.

but keep in mind the pent roof combustion chamber and dished pistons on the LT5 are very detonation resistant so the bottom line is that if your fuel and octane aren't detonating, you won't make much power.

we tried advancing timing on my motor and it didn't detonate, but it didn't make any more power either. the LPE calibration had like 31 degree and marc used 29 and it did just as well. LPE was hoping the engine would make a bit more power running race gas. wasn't needed.

no doubt that cleaning the carbon off and keeping everything clean will help the engine. one "bad side effect" of the LT5 is it tends to be a "carbon machine" and unless it gets enough time at WOT stretching it's legs, it tends to get carboned up.

from what I see on the direct injection engines, not having the fuel to help clean off the valves can be a real issue. so alchy injection into the intake to "rinse it off" makes alot of sense.

I run alchy injection on the TT Z06 and it allows me to crank the boost from 13 to 17 psi running pump gas. but the HP goes from 600 to 800 at the tires which honestly is more than I can hook up so it doesn't get used.

I'm going to run some through at a lower setting just to clean off the valves and pistons and see if it runs better as soon as we get some hot weather. (poor mans seafoam)

Read above, this may answer your question about advancing the timing. I believe more timing doesn't add anything with our engine. It is pretty much at its best.

[Tony Davila]

Awesome test, thanks for posting that up for us.

Was your tune changed at all? ---

Tune modified by Marc Haibeck for engine mods but not Meth injection. A/F ratio not really affected by added Meth being sprayed. Look at A/F ratio on Dyno sheets.

[XfireZ51]

Read above, this may answer your question about advancing the timing. I believe more timing doesn't add anything with our engine. It is pretty much at its best.

Tony,

On my last series of dyno tuning, I had timing cranked to 34D. No knock but when I dropped it to 31D with an AFR change, picked up 8-10rwhp.

[alwayscode390]

That clears things up.

I just was thinking the Syclone / Buick guys advance the timing and add more boost when using the meth ... big hp gains follow :)

Thanks ---

[Tony Davila]

For those who missed my installation pictures.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i66/Zrace1/Meth1_zps5fb1ae13.jpg
Located the pump on floor, I used the stock C4 radiator overflow container. Painted it black crinkle and plummed it for the juice. It holds 1 gallon of boost juice.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i66/Zrace1/Meth2_zps6cfda69e.jpg
You will notice that I installed a on-off switch to the pump. This lets me test the system lights and switches and prevents it from coming on if I don't want it to.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i66/Zrace1/SwitchLED_zpsfd473380.jpg
Installed switches just below dash with power on LED (green). Red LED is my activation light.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i66/Zrace1/Vacuumswitch_zps41bd36d7.jpg
Vacuum activation switch fits nicely into fender and vacuum source to manifold.
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i66/Zrace1/AirHornInj_zps0630f897.jpg
Tapped IAT port for injection of Meth and covered it to look factory.

[Tony Davila]

Tony,

On my last series of dyno tuning, I had timing cranked to 34D. No knock but when I dropped it to 31D with an AFR change, picked up 8-10rwhp.

That is cool, I didn't want to modify my own calibration just for the use of water/meth injection. I didn't want my engine dependent on using it all the time, only when I deemed necessary.

[alwayscode390]

Do you have it spraying at a certain RPM , or just when you manually turn it on? ---

[Tony Davila]

Do you have it spraying at a certain RPM , or just when you manually turn it on? ---

WOT, switch is vacuum activated. Zero vacuum = activation of pump.

[Locobob]

Thanks for making the effort to do this test Tony. I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised but your results pretty much confirmed my suspicions.

[Tony Davila]

Thanks for making the effort to do this test Tony. I was hoping to be pleasantly surprised but your results pretty much confirmed my suspicions.

I know 2hp and 6 more pounds of torque is not impressive but the temp was 64 degree. When it is 95 plus outside the benefits may be more impressive as the cooling effect returns power that would otherwise be reduced due to hot air being ingested. I still think there is more to gain, I am not convinced that this is all. I will keep trying until I get the mix right.

I plan to retest this summer and will slowly increase my alcohol mix until it is pure methanol. I have to know if there is any more out of this to gain. I am still optimistic about this endeavor. At least I know this product will help clean my pistons and prevent detonation when it gets hot.

[Tony Davila]

Next test is with a larger nozzle. The kit comes with 3 nozzles for HP ratings. I am currently using the middle nozzle that is for 350-525 HP. My engine is at about 520 now. I am going to go to the bigger nozzle that is for 525-700HP range. Hopefully I will gain something more since my 350 is ingesting a lot more air than stock. :pray

[Hog]

I know 2hp and 6 more pounds of torque is not impressive but the temp was 64 degree.

Those are gains at the peaks, it looks as though torque gains are greater lower down in the rpm range.

peace
Hog

[Tony Davila]

Those are gains at the peaks, it looks as though torque gains are greater lower down in the rpm range.

peace
Hog

Hog, you are correct. I had not noticed it but before until you mentioned it. I need the numerical readout of the runs instead of the graph to really analys the data. That explains perhaps why my car now blows the tires away in 1st gear when before it wouldn't even with my drag radials. Thank you for noticing.=D>

[RHanselman]

I know 2hp and 6 more pounds of torque is not impressive but the temp was 64 degree.

I've attended several dyno days and your results seem to be within the margin of error when no changes are performed run to run. So, I'm not sure your seeing any real change at all with the outside temp at 64 deg. I do however think you'll get considerably more power on a 100 deg day with the Meth than you would without it however I bet you'll still max-out below the numbers on a 64 deg day.

Hope to see you run the same test in Aug...

BTW - I'm probably going to install something like your system on my Turbo car just as an added safety measure.

Cheers,
RH

[rkreigh]

give the turbo a drink of alchy and it will love it.

I agree with Ron H. even shooting pure alchy on a non boosted LT5 which it will quench any detonation you are having, I'm not sure you'll see much of a gain. if your air fuel ratio is correct without it and no detonation, it will just "richen up" and not really pick up and HP.

you'll have to retune to take advantage of the alchy, or somehow increase the CFM of airflow through the engine to take advantage of the additional fuel. the "cooling of the intake charge density" is certainly worth some power in the warmer weather, but I wouldn't drown the car just yet.

run a wide band sensor to see what the air fuel ratio is and don't go any richer than 11.5 or so at WOT or you'll likely see the HP go in the wrong direction.

turning the boost knob is a whole 'nother story

boost loves alchy and supplementing the fuel supply to keep the car from running lean or just giving the additional cooling/octane rating to allow more boost does wonders.

I go from 13 psi on pump 600 rwhp to 800 rwhp at 17 psi with the pure alchy running full flow with a couple of jets on the TT Z06

my only worry is that if the alchy pump fails it will run lean in a hurry which is why I have an wideband o2 sensor that I can peak at and the IAT can pull timing before I burn a piston

the biggest thing I have learned is that 600 rwhp is the "practical" limit of a non drag radial tire (I run Toyo RA1 335/30/18) or hoosier 17 315 drag radials to hook up and even then it's "rolling on the throttle with a good touch to keep from just going up in smoke.

the traction control also can't react fast enough to "catch" the torque spike which can get exciting in the wrong way at WOT

need the boost by mph boost controller setup to really do this right and keep the power ramping up smoothly from 600 to 800 rwhp and bring in the alchy only up top. not setup to do that ..... yet

[Locobob]

If you do another dyno test Tony I suggest that you use the digital temp gauge and start each run at the same exact engine temp - this will cut down on variables. A hot weather test sounds worthwhile.

[Tony Davila]

If you do another dyno test Tony I suggest that you use the digital temp gauge and start each run at the same exact engine temp - this will cut down on variables. A hot weather test sounds worthwhile.

I was using digital temp gauge and also have wideband A/F gauge. Tomorrow I am installing larger nozzle and retest on the 18th Feb.

[rkreigh]

thanks tony, good luck with the test. be interested to see where the AF needs to be to make best power.

LPE "leaned out" my engine as much as 13-1 trying to get just a bit more power

with alchy you might be able to run that lean or even a tad bit leaner and make better power. lean is mean but not very "safe"

I'd love to tune an LT5 on e85 and see what it could do.

would be a fun experiment. I'm trying to sell my turbo buick to keep my other hot rod projects going. but after driving it the last few days in the cool air it makes me want to slap an alcy kit on it and just crank up the boost! that old buford is every bit as fast as the LSV and puts as much to the ground with only 6 cyl on low boost. at 24 PSI, foggedabout it, it's up over 600 at the tire on race gas.

keep us posted.

[Tony Davila]

LPE "leaned out" my engine as much as 13-1 trying to get just a bit more power

with alchy you might be able to run that lean or even a tad bit leaner and make better power. lean is mean but not very "safe"



My engine currently is 13.0 at WOT. It seems to make the most power at that A/F ratio. When it was at 12.5 power was down a bit.

The alchy didn't make much if any difference to my A/F ratio during the runs. Perhaps because the amount of alchy needed to equal the power of gasoline are not equal. You need a lot more alchy sprayed into the motor to equal the power of gasoline therefore that may be the reason for no change. Just my guess.:icon_stud I'll report back after my re-dyno run next week.

[Tony Davila]

Update: After a careful review of my two dyno runs I discovered that I gained 10 hp and 10 lbs of TRQ from 2500-5500 RPM with a peak of 2hp and 3lbs TRQ. It isn't a whole bunch but my intention was to prevent detonation and use the cooling affect of the water/meth. The car does feel better when running WOT with it on.

[Tony Davila]

Update graphic comparison.

[XfireZ51]

The LT-5 isn't a motor prone to detonation, certainly not at the top end. I've had mine on the dyno cranked to 35d and all it does is lose power. Torque peak is where you need to be less aggressive w timing to avoid detonation. So 4500-5500rpm. Having said that, you run through that rpm range PDQ and don't really re-visit that area at WOT even when shifting.
As for AFR, I find my motor makes best power at an indicated 13:1. I'm going to re-test that given that we use e10 here and calibrate based on Lambda rather than AFR.

[Tony Davila]

The LT-5 isn't a motor prone to detonation, certainly not at the top end. I've had mine on the dyno cranked to 35d and all it does is lose power. Torque peak is where you need to be less aggressive w timing to avoid detonation. So 4500-5500rpm. Having said that, you run through that rpm range PDQ and don't really re-visit that area at WOT even when shifting.
As for AFR, I find my motor makes best power at an indicated 13:1. I'm going to re-test that given that we use e10 here and calibrate based on Lambda rather than AFR.
Yeah your right, my goal was just to help cool the intake charge when it is hot outside to maybe return some power that is robbed from the heat. And... to keep my valves clean. I like it. Works for me.

[FU]

Thanks for updating this Tony. My engine is getting the water/meth treatment not so much for the power. As helping reduce carbon buildup on the valves etc. I believe that big cam reversion makes the carbon build-up more of a problem.

[Tony Davila]

Thanks for updating this Tony. My engine is getting the water/meth treatment not so much for the power. As helping reduce carbon buildup on the valves etc. I believe that big cam reversion makes the carbon build-up more of a problem.
Exactly! :handshak:

[Karl]

Methanol is a chemical intercooler that on n.a. engines does its job in the combustion chamber and acting as an octane booster.

I do not think it will add more power in the warmer weather. I would add timing and see what happens.

Check this video out.

http://www.powerblocktv.com/episodes/HP2011-17/horsepower-explores-the-chemical-intercooler

[Tony Davila]

Methanol is a chemical intercooler that on n.a. engines does its job in the combustion chamber and acting as an octane booster.

I do not think it will add more power in the warmer weather. [/url]

Yes I agree, not add more power......... but recover some power in hot weather.

[haber rj]

Tony great information

[Tony Davila]

Update:5/22/2014

I have some info I want to share with you on my water meth injection project. Even though I installed it a year ago I just realized something that I didn't catch from looking at my charts.

Last year after a dyno run at SGC, I grafted my results. I realized that the HP/Trq numbers were not overly impressive with a peak gain of 11HP and 10lbs of Trq with the use of the water meth injection on my modified engine. The engine felt like it ran better from the seat of the pants.

Yesterday I was analyzing the chart and just now realized that using the water meth injection on my modded motor returned or bettered the torque numbers of my engine to the stock performance levels in the lower RPMs (2500-3500). It did not however equal or better the HP numbers.

I had never compared the water meth injection use on my mod motor to a stock engine with no meth injection. When I did this answered my question on why the car felt better using the meth then without, the peak numbers are what threw me off. More torque down low equals more go where you need it.

We all know that engine upgrades result in more power and torque but pushes everything up on the RPM scale. I was happily surprised to find this and thought I would share this with you. Water Meth injection does help our engines on torque.

Updated excel spread sheet attached.

[FU]

Thanks' for the update Tony. I just want to say that beside the small power increase from water/meth inj. , The fact that water/meth inj. will help clean the carbon build up on the cammed/modded etc. LT5's is a major plus to all of us.

[Tony Davila]

Thanks' for the update Tony. I just want to say that beside the small power increase from water/meth inj. , The fact that water/meth inj. will help clean the carbon build up on the cammed/modded etc. LT5's is a major plus to all of us.
I just talked (email) with Mark Haibeck and he said he was going to install a kit on and LT5 and dyno and tune to exploit its use. I sent this data to him yesterday. Hopefully with his facility he will have a slide show next year to brief us on the results of his findings.

[FU]

That would be my car :-D

[Locobob]

Interesting... glad to hear Mark is going to explore this idea further, going to keep my eye on this.