Is the ZR-1 going to appreciate in value eventually?

[weneversleep]

I was the one who posted the "C5Z06 owner thinking about a ZR-1". I appreciate all of the feedback I got on that thread.

I'm now in serious looking mode for a nice ZR-1. I actually prefer the 90-93 interiors over the 94-95 sport seats, even though the 94-95 is probably a "better" car, or at least more powerful.

I'm just wondering, as probably most ZR-1 owners (or potential owners) do: will the ZR-1 ever be an appreciating value collectible? I can't see any reason why it wouldn't be, but then there's the school of thought that says that "modern" cars will never appreciate in value.

Anyway, just another discussion thread...

[Kevin]

it's a limited edition mass produced american car... the answer is who cares. I'll be dead by the time it matters. i'll let my nephews fight it out

[weneversleep]

To elaborate more on my original post...

I want to buy a ZR-1 because of the experience of owning a ZR-1, and all that it represented (and still represents). I want to experience that LT5.

However, I'm trying to decide whether to buy a super-low-mileage ZR-1, a "collector grade" car if you will, or a higher mileage one that I don't have to worry about keeping the mileage low.

I'm starting to think about diversifying my portfolio into collectible cars, and personally I think the ZR-1 is poised for future collectibility and appreciating value. I've been following the prices for a while, and they seem to be bottoming out, if not slowly starting to turn upwards.

I realize that none of us can see the future. However, I bet that every current ZR-1 owner has thought about this issue before. :)

[scottfab]

I put together a clock for predicting ZR-1 investment value
about 10yrs ago.

http://home.comcast.net/~scottfab/CarTime.html (http://home.comcast.net/%7Escottfab/CarTime.html)

[vilant]

I believe they will appreciate in value just because we're slowly coming out of one of the worst depressions ever. Things can only go up after hitting rock bottom (although we could fall back into one). As far as low or high mileage will depend on what you really want. If you want to drive and enjoy your car buy one w/ over 15K mi.. If you want a museum piece that your hoping to show and MAYBE make money on buy a low mileage one. If you hold on to it long enough the worst that should happen is you get your money back, depending on how well you take care of it.

[Kevin]

cars are not investments

[Fully Vetted]

it's a limited edition mass produced american car... the answer is who cares. I'll be dead by the time it matters. i'll let my nephews fight it out


Explain that to the '87 GNX guys that are now watching their values go up.

Cars are not investments? I totally disagree. The right cars bought at the right time and at the right price are gold mines.

[weneversleep]

cars are not investments

I disagree with this statement.

Are the vast majority of cars a consumable good? Yes.

However, there are certain cars that have appreciated in value, some exponentially so. It's quite easy to show this.

For a sophisticated investor, especially one who has a passion for cars, I think that investing in cars may make sense. I would never invest in coins, or paintings, or other "alternative" investments that I know nothing about or care anything about.

[Kevin]

Explain that to the '87 GNX guys that are now watching their values go up.

Cars are not investments? I totally disagree. The right cars bought at the right time and at the right price are gold mines.

and for every one car that goes up in value there are thousands that go down. Cars aren't investments.

[Fully Vetted]

and for every one car that goes up in value there are thousands that go down. Cars aren't investments.

I'm not saying ALL cars are investments. That's ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as saying NO cars are investments.

[vilant]

A better comment would be that there is better investments. Like putting 20-30K in a 7% stock portfolio fund. Also look how many car shows there are on Velocity. There are thriving businesses which just buy and sell collectible cars, and make a lot of money doing it.

[scottfab]

.....snip....
If you hold on to it long enough the worst that should happen is you get your money back, depending on how well you take care of it.

I agree. There are profound examples of cars that have shown to be fantastic investments. Don't let any one tell you cars can never be good investments. Just look at the L88, or split window 63, etc, etc, etc, etc
Will the ZR-1 be one of them? TBD

[scottfab]

Remember Gold is just a metal. It can never be a good investment.

[mike100]

My feeling is that since there are many examples of newer faster cars collectibility may be good, but value will be capped at some number below the price of newer top level performance cars.

[BigJohn]

A very low mileage twenty year old car may look brand new but have dry wrought in gaskets and seals. Plus internal wrought in hoses.
:cry:

[AT T 2D]

Explain that to the '87 GNX guys that are now watching their values go up....

Demand is a very finicky thing and it is hard trying to pick the ones that will go up in value. They made 547 1987 GNX's which are very similar to the other thousands of GN, T Types, & Limited turbos. To me the Regal is a car my parents drove with a hopped up engine.

They made 1,550 1989 20th Anniversary Trans Am's with a very similar engine and 17 lbs of boost. The TTA's are a bit faster, and aren't limited to around 120 MPH top speed like the GNX. They also go around corners. A typical Trans Am of that generation is lucky to get into the mid 15's in the quarter compared to the TTA which is low 13's or high 12's.

The TTA has not appreciated like the GNX. I think the reason the GNX has gone up in value is that there are so few and the market is tightly controlled. I know one person who has 5 or 6 of them. There were well over 5,000 C4 ZR-1's which I think will keep the prices from getting too high.

[Kevin]

The gallardo 458 and aventador are all going to drop. The Lfa may go up

[ZONER 95]

and for every one car that goes up in value there are thousands that go down. Cars aren't investments.


You're right...most cars aren't investments...but certain ones are... as history has shown us....

[scottfab]

You're right...most cars aren't investments...but certain ones are... as history has shown us....

Precisely correct and might I add succinctly put. Now if I only had a magazine from the future :p

[ZONER 95]

Precisely correct and might I add succinctly put. Now if I only had a magazine from the future :p

Speaking of the Future.......I wouldn't mind a nice, low mileage DeLorean in my portfolio.....;)

[BigJohn]

Speaking of the Future.......I wouldn't mind a nice, low mileage DeLorean in my portfolio.....;)

Really!!!
Did you know that you can still buy them new!!!!
:)

[ZONER 95]

Yes, I do remember seeing that ...somewhere down South....hopefully they upgraded the power plant......cool looking vehicle, just lacked the power to go along with the looks...

[scottfab]

Yes, I do remember seeing that ...somewhere down South....hopefully they upgraded the power plant......cool looking vehicle, just lacked the power to go along with the looks...

An LT5 in a DeLorean. hmmmm
That would be 1.21 Giga Watts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjCRUvX2D0E

[Fully Vetted]

Demand is a very finicky thing and it is hard trying to pick the ones that will go up in value. They made 547 1987 GNX's which are very similar to the other thousands of GN, T Types, & Limited turbos. To me the Regal is a car my parents drove with a hopped up engine.

They made 1,550 1989 20th Anniversary Trans Am's with a very similar engine and 17 lbs of boost. The TTA's are a bit faster, and aren't limited to around 120 MPH top speed like the GNX. They also go around corners. A typical Trans Am of that generation is lucky to get into the mid 15's in the quarter compared to the TTA which is low 13's or high 12's.

The TTA has not appreciated like the GNX. I think the reason the GNX has gone up in value is that there are so few and the market is tightly controlled. I know one person who has 5 or 6 of them. There were well over 5,000 C4 ZR-1's which I think will keep the prices from getting too high.


Even the standard run of the mill GN's have gone up. A few years ago I was considering one and could have had my pick in the $10k - $12k range. While there are still some examples out there at that price the nice ones are now $17k and up. That has to be the poster child for Limited Production mass produced american made car. That car, if memory serves, was around $30k new and dropped in price too the point that every high school kid in shop had one and finding one now that hasn't been beat to death on the drag strip is difficult. I don't believe that problem will apply to the C4 ZR-1.

[dan1495]

Yes, I do remember seeing that ...somewhere down South....hopefully they upgraded the power plant......cool looking vehicle, just lacked the power to go along with the looks...

They are built/rejuvenated in Houston Texas by Delorean Motor Company. They have several engine upgrade packages. It is a neat place to visit and the owner Stephen Wynne is a class act.

[Alberta_ZR1]

it's a limited edition mass produced american car... the answer is who cares. I'll be dead by the time it matters. i'll let my nephews fight it out......cars are not investments.......The gallardo 458 and aventador are all going to drop. The Lfa may go up

I don't think there is any argument about Lamborghini or Ferrari...the resale prices aren't anywhere near the sticker price. The only thing that makes them seem collectible is their price...a $150k Lambo seems like a collectors piece to someone who doesn't realize that some poor sap already had paid $220k.

One particular Ferrari investment, the F40, primarily the 1990-1991’s. They were ~$300,000.00 new and NADA is showing a high value of $699,000.00. Not a bad return on 20 year investment.

Some domestics that come to mind is the Ford GT - only 4000 made and a MSRP of ~$150,000.00 and you’ll be hard pressed to find one even remotely close to that price now. What about in 20 years? Or the 2000 Mustang Cobra R, it hasn’t gained a lot but resale is still higher than the sticker, so I’d say that qualifies for a gain too.

Might be mixed reactions on this, but the 2006 Hummer H1 Alpha (with the Duramax), these things are still generally higher than the sticker price, sometimes by as much as $50k.

Will the C4 ZR1 go up in price? Only time will tell. I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed, but it sure seems like I've seen/read quite a few magazine articles over the last year that have talked about the C4 ZR1...publicity is sometimes a good thing...:dancing

T

[scottfab]

... snip...
Will the C4 ZR1 go up in price? Only time will tell. I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed, but it sure seems like I've seen/read quite a few magazine articles over the last year that have talked about the C4 ZR1...publicity is sometimes a good thing...:dancing

T

Indeed, only time will tell. I'd guess the price will go up before I check out of this place. Cars can be a VERY GOOD investment if you know which one to pick just like the stock market. Pick Apple.. good....... pick Enron... not so good.

[weneversleep]

Yes, Ford GT: good future investment.

One that I believe will be a great future investment is the 2006 Mitsubishi Evolution IX. One year only design, and the final year for the "original" Evo platform. Low production numbers. Strong racing (rally) heritage, and an even stronger worldwide cult following. In the US at least, the best performing Japanese car of its day.

Trust me, we'll see a low mileage Evo IX on Barrett Jackson in 20 years bringing big money. Too bad I sold mine a couple of years ago. :(

Anyway, back to the ZR-1; I really believe it's going to be a blue-chip Corvette one of these days. It's not super low production numbers, but it's rare enough, and the novelty of the DOHC engine along with the period heritage ("King of the Hill", the 24 hour 175 mph endurance run, etc.) make it a special Vette, and special Vettes are the ones that appreciate over time. As always, condition and mileage will determine overall value, but I do believe that values have bottomed out.

Sure, if you bought one new, you have a long time to wait to even break even, but if you buy one now, I don't think you will lose much money, and have a better-than-average chance of making money.

I'm ready to put my money where my mouth is and buy one soon. :) My dilemma is: I want to drive and enjoy it as well, not just have it sit in a climate-controlled garage somewhere...

[scottfab]

.... snip...
Trust me, we'll see a low mileage Evo IX on Barrett Jackson in 20 years bringing big money. Too bad I sold mine a couple of years ago. :(.... snip.

Sorry, never heard of them.

Sure, if you bought one new, you have a long time to wait to even break even, but if you buy one now, I don't think you will lose much money, and have a better-than-average chance of making money.

... snip....

It maybe time to pick up my second one for sure.

[Alberta_ZR1]

...one that I believe will be a great future investment is the 2006 Mitsubishi Evolution IX. One year only design, and the final year for the "original" Evo platform.

You're not alone in that thinking. There have been a few magazines and car people who have stated that the 05/06 Evo may be a collector item. Some have speculated that the MR might be a bit more collectible because of the 6-spd transmission, BBS wheels, etc.


I don't think you will lose much money, and have a better-than-average chance of making money.

I'm ready to put my money where my mouth is and buy one soon. :) My dilemma is: I want to drive and enjoy it as well, not just have it sit in a climate-controlled garage somewhere...

I don't think you'll ever lose money. Worst case, you may not potentially make a ton, but I'm sure at this point you'd always be able to recover your initial cost.

With your dilemma, you should go for the happy-medium....the car is meant to be driven, it was designed to be driven, the engineering and time that went into it was meant to be experienced. Just don't be overly abusive, take good car of it, drive it on nice days and then return it to your climate controlled garage for extended absences with a fresh coat of wax and a quality car cover...best of both worlds.

[AT T 2D]

..... That has to be the poster child for Limited Production mass produced american made car. That car, if memory serves, was around $30k new and dropped in price too the point that every high school kid in shop had one.... The base price for a new GN in 1987 was $16,000, typically you would find them for around $18,000 including a few options. They were within a couple of hundred dollars of a new Pontiac GTA or Chevy Z28. So you could buy 3 or 4 of them for the price of a '90 ZR-1.

[HAWAIIZR-1]

I'm ready to put my money where my mouth is and buy one soon. :) My dilemma is: I want to drive and enjoy it as well, not just have it sit in a climate-controlled garage somewhere...

You might have just answered your own question. Get a very, very nice driver and enjoy the LT5. Then go buy yourself a 68 Z/28, 70 Chevelle SS LS6, GNX etc. as your collectible investment. I think the ZR-1s are made to drive and enjoy...........you won't regret it. If you decide to get a collectible one, make sure you will be satisfied leaving it NCRS condition.....but it will be a gamble as to how collectible it will really be 20 years from now. I would rather invest in a car that is a sure thing and an older, more simple car without all the electronics and sensors to go bad and lack of parts possible. Cars are only worth what someone is willing to pay in my opinion. Best of luck. :cheers:

[Paul Workman]

and for every one car that goes up in value there are thousands that go down. Cars aren't investments.

:blahblah: Yeah...well...I wish I had that 69 SS 396 Chevelle back that I let go for $500. Methinks it was a mistake to let it go!;)

P.

[tomtom72]

Hello again....yea it's me the guy whose car "speaks to him"! :sign10::hal:

If I were looking for a collectable ZR-1 I'd buy one of the 448 cars....my choice would be one with Dunn heads. Case closed. Or perhaps an LSV or maybe a Callaway car? Then don't use it too much. This is easy for me to say because I'll never be in that position to have one of those, but if I had some spare coin I'd have been looking for an LSV car as they were quite reasonable recently.
Then, if you really like the C4 ZR-1 experience, you could always get a driver to use often and not worry about loosing value.

I think that I'm just stating the obvious though. You have thought of this already, right? Okay, so it is not a very cost effective answer. I am not much help, sorry. If I had the money that's what I'd do.

:cheers:
Tom

[jcruz]

I don't see values going any lower. How much they go up is anyone's guess, but they will go up in value, if nothing else because of inflation. I plan on keeping and driving mine another 20 years...I'll report back then :)

[scottfab]

:blahblah: Yeah...well...I wish I had that 69 SS 396 Chevelle back that I let go for $500. Methinks it was a mistake to let it go!;)

P.

Yup me too. Had a 66 Chevelle SS w/396 and let it go for $400 so I could buy a new mustang. Now I see them go for a low of $40k and as high as $60k

I've always viewed my ZR-1 as an investment in fun. It's cheaper than laying on a couch blabbing my problems and it sure as hell maintains more value than the run of the mill GM car.
I think I've got my money's worth. In fact I think I'll go out and get some more of my money's worth from my investment today ;)

[mgg]

Certain cars are investments. I bought and restored a 1966 GT 350H Shelby in 1982. Without getting inot specifics I sold the car after restoring it to perfect condition in 1990. I did VERY well!. After I sold the car the owner who I bought it from asked ne if I had stayed up with who owned the car or the history. I said no. He proceeded to send me documentation regarding the car. About two years ago it burned up in the wildfires of California. There was an article with pictures and serial number documenting my old car. The insurance company wrote the owner a check for over 100k. My wife said, " I thought you knew **** about cars". Well obviously not enough. That being said, with the money I made selling the car, I bought a new 1990 corvette which I auto-x and then truned into a SCCA ITE race car and have had a blast racing it with Nasa. I bought a Zr-1 when values started to drop. I probably paid a little too much but it is a great low mileage car and I love it. It does seem as if the values are starting to creep back to where they were. Certainley not where they should be for such a historcally significant and great car.

[4CAM LT5]

I've always viewed my ZR-1 as an investment in fun. It's cheaper than laying on a couch blabbing my problems and it sure as hell maintains more value than the run of the mill GM car.
I think I've got my money's worth. In fact I think I'll go out and get some more of my money's worth from my investment today ;)

Very well-put. Sounds like a great idea....!!!

[tcz062]

Look at it this way. In 1969 they produced over 200,000 Camaro's the avg price was around $3,500 new. The average nice 69 Camaro now is about $25,000. There is no way of really knowing what will happen with the values due to hundreds of what if factors. But I would bet all things being the same if you wait another 15 or 20 years they will at least double today's market. The 93 to 95 will lead the pack due to the lower production numbers and being a 4 bolt LT5,

[cvette98pacecar]

cars are not investments

Sure they are Kevin. They are just poor Investments.

[RiceEatingZR1]

I see both sides of the coin on this one. I think that the value is only in the eye of the person that wants one. The ZR-1 is a piece of art every part of it, from under the hood to the sound of the exhaust. They are made to drive and drive hard and then clean it up to show it off. I personally drive mine, if the value goes up then good, but I don't plan to sell it either.

[Fully Vetted]

Look at it this way. In 1969 they produced over 200,000 Camaro's the avg price was around $3,500 new. The average nice 69 Camaro now is about $25,000.

How much of that $25k is just due to inflation, though. To get the real value increase you have to know what $3500 in 1969 money is worth today.

[scottfab]

Opinions about cars are like round parts of the human anatomy.
We all have them. Some have good parts other have poor parts.
But all of those parts are good investments.
:blahblah:

What? That doesn't makes sense.
Exactly.
I deny typing that unless it makes sense then I did.
:confused:

[Fully Vetted]

Look at it this way. In 1969 they produced over 200,000 Camaro's the avg price was around $3,500 new. The average nice 69 Camaro now is about $25,000.

So, based on my inflation calculator $3500 in 1969 is now worth $21,875. Not far off the current $25,000 price tag. You figure in the 43 years of use and I'd say that you're doing ok on that $3500 investment.

[Paul in SC]

I see both sides of the coin on this one. I think that the value is only in the eye of the person that wants one. The ZR-1 is a piece of art every part of it, from under the hood to the sound of the exhaust. They are made to drive and drive hard and then clean it up to show it off. I personally drive mine, if the value goes up then good, but I don't plan to sell it either.

IMHO...
Some cars can definitely prove to be very valuable today relative to their original value. However, it's usually those that were an "investment" in cash at the time as well for the buyer.

We have an '80 with 23,000 miles, all original, top flight, original rims/tires with original 1980 air :-D. Real garage queen/show car. Worth about $18,000 - $20,000 to a collector in better days. Cost of ownership is well over that amount for the years we have had it. BUT, for what it is and how we have enjoyed having it...priceless! Not an investment at all, just pure fun.

Now if we had invested that same money in 1980 in an income generating source ...WOW. Some real value.

Take that $3500 for that Camaro and do the same real investment in 69; living large right now. But you would have been missing all the fun. Now take part of your original invested $3500 and you could buy that car now and still have money left. You would have also saved all the ownership costs from 1969 to 2012.

My thinking:
I am never going to be able to lay out the money for a real investment-type vehicle SO I will enjoy what I can afford for as long as I have it. The dollars at the end don't really mean a thing!!! :cheers:

[4CAM LT5]

My thinking:
I am never going to be able to lay out the money for a real investment-type vehicle SO I will enjoy what I can afford for as long as I have it. The dollars at the end don't really mean a thing!!! :cheers:

AMEN, brother. Could not have said it better...!!!

[bdw18_123]

Opinions about cars are like round parts of the human anatomy.
We all have them. Some have good parts other have poor parts.
But all of those parts are good investments.
:blahblah:

What? That doesn't makes sense.
Exactly.
I deny typing that unless it makes sense then I did.
:confused:

:sign10:

[tcz062]

Every investment gain is based off of three variables. The ZR1 will no doubt capitalize on two of those, limited supply and inflation. Demand is the 3rd and who knows what will happen. No different than any other investment.