368...should I, could I, would I

[Hib Halverson]

"Barney" my Dark Purple Metallic 95, has a little over 80,000 miles and about 60,000 on it's Automasters Street Skinner engine.

Back in April, my Wife (The Fairest Sandra the Red, Duchess of Goleta) and I ordered a '12 Z06 and after driving it a while, I'm thinking my old 2G ZR1 needs a "shot in the arm"

So, I rang up the Beaglemaster, Jim Van Dorn at Automasters of Bowling Green, and asked him about taking my 350 out to 368. We'd pull my 350, send the block up to Lingenfelter's to have the steel sleeves put in. We'd send the heads over to Greg Van Deventer to be "freshened" and have a few more mods done which he puts in heads which go on 368s. I'm also thinking about changing the intake cams. Then we'd assemble the engine at Automasters and stick it back in the car.

Right now my engine is at about 500-hp and I'd like to see it at 540-550. Think I can get there?

[Eric24]

Should I.....Hell Ya!
Could I.....Hell Ya!
Would I....Hell Ya!

Then I would drive that beast to my favorite Army guys house and let him "drive" it!!

:saluting:

[mike100]

I think you need to add at least 1/2 a liter seeing as how you have recently been corrupted by the thrust of a 7 liter in a lightweight C6.

[tf95ZR1]

All that for 40-50 HP?
Hummmm

:dontknow::dontknow:

[scottfab]

Why only 368?
For a few $ more......

[Paul Workman]

Baby steps, Hib. "State of the art" has eclipsed 368, and it will cost 80-90% of what a serious hp upgrade would cost. Course the result would eclipse the Z06, hp wise anyway.

Just sayin...but U did ask.

P.

[XfireZ51]

I think you can be there w a 350 but you would not do it w just the intake cam.
Since you're in Cali, what about emissions?

[FU]

I concur with XfireZ51. There is someone in the Chicago area that does top end porting on a CNC. Couple that with some good intake's. The combo will get you close to the goal. That package is excellent and a well proven product. No need to go into the block (IMO).

That's what I would do if it were my car.

If your thinking about a 368 my opinion is go big 385-402 or leave it alone , the 350 is fine. This suggestion come's from experience with 368-385-415-441's. Opinion's may vary.

Good Luck :cheers:

[Hib Halverson]

Why only 368?
For a few $ more......

Well, I'm kinda fixated on the 368 because, if I did it, it'd have to be for under 10 grand and to go 385, I'd need a crankshaft which I bet costs $4000.

My 350 already makes about 500-hp via the port work and other engine mods I have already. I can easily spin the tires, which are F1 Supercars. A good 385 which is streetable, is going to make 580 or so and a good 415 is over 600. All that would do is spin the tires more, but not make the car that much quicker. Obviously, if I put slicks on the car, it'd be a different story...but then I'd be breaking driveline parts.

A comment was made about a 368 with different intake cams failing California's smog check. No doubt, the reason I'm still not sure about the cams is just that–the smog check. Actually the smog check is also why I may have to retain my ported stock exhaust manifolds and cats.

I'm not a drag racer (at least not a frequent one) and I think a 540-550-hp 368, coupled with the right suspension upgrades (right now, other than revalved SRC shocks, my suspension is stock) and a 3.73 axle (right now, the ratio is stock) would make a really fun car. It won't catch my 12 Z06 on a road course, but it will keep it in sight.

[scottfab]

...snip..... It won't catch my 12 Z06 on a road course, but it will keep it in sight.

ah but is the 12 purple .....:p

[Paul Workman]

Well, I'm kinda fixated on the 368 because, if I did it, it'd have to be for under 10 grand and to go 385, I'd need a crankshaft which I bet costs $4000.

My 350 already makes about 500-hp via the port work and other engine mods I have already. I can easily spin the tires, which are F1 Supercars. A good 385 which is streetable, is going to make 580 or so and a good 415 is over 600. All that would do is spin the tires more, but not make the car that much quicker. Obviously, if I put slicks on the car, it'd be a different story...but then I'd be breaking driveline parts.

A comment was made about a 368 with different intake cams failing California's smog check. No doubt, the reason I'm still not sure about the cams is just that–the smog check. Actually the smog check is also why I may have to retain my ported stock exhaust manifolds and cats.



I'm not a drag racer (at least not a frequent one) and I think a 540-550-hp 368, coupled with the right suspension upgrades (right now, other than revalved SRC shocks, my suspension is stock) and a 3.73 axle (right now, the ratio is stock) would make a really fun car. It won't catch my 12 Z06 on a road course, but it will keep it in sight.

Frank is right - Lots of options:

You're going to buy sleeves, pistons, rings, bearings anyway, so bigger is possible for very little more $$ e.g., 385. And, you keep your stock crank and cams and get close to 600 CHP, provided the porting is increased to handle it.

somewhere above 385 you can transition to 402 via off-set grinding the crank. At 385 you should be able to get to close to 575 CHP, on stock cams (read: Kalifornia emmissions requirements in mind).

There's porting, and there's porting... A lot has changed since porting was done in the 90s. One of the often said ditties is, "If you port the intake, you'll give up low/mid range torque for top end". Well, apparently the LT5 was starving for air from the git-go (read: doesn't appear to apply in this case!). Have you seen Marc Haibecks office "wall paper"? It is becoming covered with dyno graphs that show many motors not only making substantial power improvements, but without sacrificing torque anywhere in the band! The point is, HOW your porting is done (dare I say by whom?), could be important. (Some of these gurus are porting LT5 stuff almost weekly. And, now there is a proven CNC head porting program in IL for the LT5 to consider (@ about $2500 inclucing taking the motor apart and putting it back together with the ported heads).

I guess the bottom line goes back to what I said earlier about the 368. Hib, you dropped a lot of big names around w/ regard to your project. But, truth is where you find it, and a lot of big names have refocused on other (e.g, LSx) projects - seldom do work on LT5s anymore. Yet, there are still some well known, dyed in the wool DOHC purists that are still dedicated to the LT5, that may have something to offer and won't cost you a fortune.

I'm just sayin...

P.

[XfireZ51]

Paul,

Well said. If the GVD heads I have are any indication, cylinder head work has evolved beyond it as an example.

540-550chp is available w a 5.7L

[Pete]

391ci Closed Deck (very reliable)
4.125 bore
3.66 stroke (stock crank)
Stock Cams 570-580 chp
Done
There's 4 of the closed deck engines out there 3 run 10's with mild cams.

My suggestion is if you go with a intake cam put in a small exhaust
.220 .425 or .224 .415

Paul your very right sir LT5 has come a long way since the '90's
Pete

[Hib Halverson]

Thanks for all of the input.

Three final questions to "Pete"....

What is the cost of converting a 350 to the four-and-an-eighth bore 391

What's the CR of that engine?

Finally, I don't care about running 10s, but I do care about getting 60,000 miles out of the engine with it running nearly as good at the end of that 60,000 miles as it did after the break-in. Can I do that?

[Hib Halverson]

Paul,

Well said. If the GVD heads I have are any indication, cylinder head work has evolved beyond it as an example.

540-550chp is available w a 5.7L

How did you arrive at the conclusion that head work as evolved past GVD heads?

Did you just look at the ports and decide that or did you do some flow and engine dyno testing?

[Pete]

Thanks for all of the input.

Three final questions to "Pete"....

What is the cost of converting a 350 to the four-and-an-eighth bore 391

What's the CR of that engine?

Finally, I don't care about running 10s, but I do care about getting 60,000 miles out of the engine with it running nearly as good at the end of that 60,000 miles as it did after the break-in. Can I do that?

For complete rotating short block done ready for install $9500
New pistons,rings,rods,etc.
You need to supply a good short block/crank.

Compression is your choice 9.5-1 thru 13.0-1

The way this is done the sleeves are thicker and stronger then open deck 4" sleeves.
One of these already have 10-15k miles on them with alot of drag time
alot of Chicago traffic and has run 10.40's @ 133 this car runs just fine.

So if you won't drive it as hard as the above car then i would not worry about reliability.

Pete

[Polo-1]

putting in the 379ci in the AM.

Stock crank cut to 3.75
Bore LA sleeve 4.010

If it were for me....

Pete do the BIG Bore 4.125 and a stock crank cut to 3.75 come out to 401ci.

Best dollar spend for a big inch LT5 on the cheap. Great rod stroke 1.56 to 1.6 either 5.850 or 6.000 rod used.

[XfireZ51]

How did you arrive at the conclusion that head work as evolved past GVD heads?

Did you just look at the ports and decide that or did you do some flow and engine dyno testing?

I have my own motor and dyno testing along w Marc Hs experience and work.

[Paul Workman]

I have my own motor and dyno testing along w Marc Hs experience and work.

Yeah, but Dom... You forgot to mention there's some FBI "nuances" to the porting too that we're sworn to secrecy to, under penalty of being violated by Marc or (worse) an angry Greek!!;)

P.

[tomtom72]

Frank is right - Lots of options: The point is, HOW your porting is done (dare I say by whom?), could be important. (Some of these gurus are porting LT5 stuff almost weekly. And, now there is a proven CNC head porting program in IL for the LT5 to consider (@ about $2500 inclucing taking the motor apart and putting it back together with the ported heads).

I'm just sayin...

P.

I have a question from left field, but first I apologize for invading Hib's thread with my question.

I took out all but what made me almost spit my coffee on my LCD....Paul the part of your post I isolated is indeed fact????? I have a lot of Q's related to this Q, but this is the most important to a person of blue collar means.:o

TIA
:cheers:
Tom

[Blue Flame Restorations]

For complete rotating short block done ready for install $9500
New pistons,rings,rods,etc.
You need to supply a good short block/crank.

Compression is your choice 9.5-1 thru 13.0-1

The way this is done the sleeves are thicker and stronger then open deck 4" sleeves.
One of these already have 10-15k miles on them with alot of drag time
alot of Chicago traffic and has run 10.40's @ 133 this car runs just fine.

So if you won't drive it as hard as the above car then i would not worry about reliability.

Pete


This is EXACTLY what's on my wish list. 575+ hp at the crank. 500+ hp at the wheels.

Hib, I don't drag race either. I just like the added "punch" and being different than a stock LT5. :dancing

[Paul Workman]

The CNC part you mean? Absolutely! There are 3 10-sec big inch LT5s and one 11.0x 350 stock block 350 using "the pattern". And, Marc too has developed a new pattern as well.

Gotta run.

P.

[Hib Halverson]

I have my own motor and dyno testing along w Marc Hs experience and work.

You've done dyno testing?
Awesome.
Please, post the data in the comparison test you did. I could learn a lot by reading it.

[scottfab]

You've done dyno testing?
Awesome.
Please, post the data in the comparison test you did. I could learn a lot by reading it.

I second that request. Is there before/after data on a stock engine with just the Chicago CNC work? ($2500)
You have my interest. That'd be worth the gas $ money for the trip especially if it could be timed right for the next gathering.

[Paul Workman]

I second that request. Is there before/after data on a stock engine with just the Chicago CNC work? ($2500)
You have my interest. That'd be worth the gas $ money for the trip especially if it could be timed right for the next gathering.

Clarification: I did say $2500 is for the heads (only) - the really tricky part. (Price is for engine out of the car, heads removed, ported, reinstalled/reassembled, you put top-end on and reinstall the engine.)


Sorry for the confusion.



P.

[FU]

I'm lovin these 391-401 combo's =D> Make's for a nice comfortable rod ratio.
This just show's that the LT5 is still evolving....

[Pete]

I'm lovin these 391-401 combo's =D> Make's for a nice comfortable rod ratio.
This just show's that the LT5 is still evolving....

Amen brotha.
I wish i had the extra coin i would do a closed deck 396 with 6" rods then watch out and get out of the way.lol

Kevin (Polo1) 3.75" stroke does sound good if i ever decide (get the extra cash) to do this it was something i was gonna decide on at that time.
I like the sound of a 396 :) with 3.75" stroke and 4.100 bore.

Pete

[A1990]

Amen brotha.
I wish i had the extra coin i would do a closed deck 396 with 6" rods then watch out and get out of the way.lol

Kevin (Polo1) 3.75" stroke does sound good if i ever decide (get the extra cash) to do this it was something i was gonna decide on at that time.
I like the sound of a 396 :) with 3.75" stroke and 4.100 bore.

Pete

Couldn't agree more :cheers:

[tomtom72]

Clarification: I did say $2500 is for the heads (only) - the really tricky part. (Price is for engine out of the car, heads removed, ported, reinstalled/reassembled, you put top-end on and reinstall the engine.)


Sorry for the confusion.



P.

Dang! I knew I must have missed something! LOL Sorry Paul. I should pay more attention!:o

:cheers:
Tom

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Clarification: I did say $2500 is for the heads (only) - the really tricky part. (Price is for engine out of the car, heads removed, ported, reinstalled/reassembled, you put top-end on and reinstall the engine.)


Sorry for the confusion.



P.


If it was easy....everyone would just do it themselves........

[Polo-1]

Amen brotha.
I wish i had the extra coin i would do a closed deck 396 with 6" rods then watch out and get out of the way.lol

Kevin (Polo1) 3.75" stroke does sound good if i ever decide (get the extra cash) to do this it was something i was gonna decide on at that time.
I like the sound of a 396 :) with 3.75" stroke and 4.100 bore.

Pete

Extra $300 from 368 to 380 :-D

And 380 goes Hmmm Smooth Pete stage 1 intake cams

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/kpie/th_IMG_0489_zps6b75e027.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/kpie/?action=view&current=IMG_0489_zps6b75e027.mp4)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/kpie/IMG_0691_zpsa843840c.jpg

[Polo-1]

Couldn't agree more :cheers:

Hey Dennis
Did you ever get a dyno sheet of your 396 ? Sure would like to see the rwtq #'s on the 3.750 stroke motor.

[Locobob]

I thought you were done playing with LT-5's and had moved on to "tupperware" motors Kevin :D

[Polo-1]

http://youtu.be/UPw-3e_pzqU

[A1990]

Hey Dennis
Did you ever get a dyno sheet of your 396 ? Sure would like to see the rwtq #'s on the 3.750 stroke motor.

Yes, I do have one. Let me see if I can dig it up. 521 rwhp, but I don't recall the rwtq #

[XfireZ51]

http://youtu.be/UPw-3e_pzqU


Perfect!

I oike the sound of either a 396 or 427. They sort of roll off the tongue.

[ZZZZZR1]

Extra $300 from 368 to 380 :-D

And 380 goes Hmmm Smooth Pete stage 1 intake cams

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/kpie/th_IMG_0489_zps6b75e027.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/kpie/?action=view&current=IMG_0489_zps6b75e027.mp4)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y292/kpie/IMG_0691_zpsa843840c.jpg

That is the plan for my car. Likely next winter

:cheers:

David

[Paul Workman]

Sounds like there'll be some chips flyin' again this winter! Cripes...Just when I thought 500+ was good and I was out...y'all sucked me back IN!!!

These LT5s are adicting!!:cheers:

P.

[RICKYRJ1]

Sounds like there'll be some chips flyin' again this winter! Cripes...Just when I thought 500+ was good and I was out...y'all sucked me back IN!!!

These LT5s are adicting!!:cheers:

P.

LOL I agree, these guys keep moving the bar and costing us more money.

[Polo-1]

I was not the first guy to offset the stock crank. But, it does work and can get you up in big cube game without spending $3500-4500 on a new crank.

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Sounds like there'll be some chips flyin' again this winter! Cripes...Just when I thought 500+ was good and I was out...y'all sucked me back IN!!!

These LT5s are adicting!!:cheers:

P.

Ahhhhh, c'mon Paul.....it's only $$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!! Every ZR-1 should have a college fund.;)

[Kevin]

i've never had a good answer to why our cranks are so ******* expensive. I talked to a friend of mine who builds motors years ago and he couldn't believe what our cranks cost vs what he can get a race crank for

[Pete]

She's lives.

Enjoy brotha :cheers:

Hey Dennis, we agree on something :dancing

Pete

[Jagdpanzer]

i've never had a good answer to why our cranks are so ******* expensive. I talked to a friend of mine who builds motors years ago and he couldn't believe what our cranks cost vs what he can get a race crank for
The reason is all the extra machining and drilling the LT5 crank requires. Production time is probably at least double a regular SBC crank.

[Paul Workman]

i've never had a good answer to why our cranks are so ******* expensive. I talked to a friend of mine who builds motors years ago and he couldn't believe what our cranks cost vs what he can get a race crank for

Jag is right. There's a big difference between buying cranks for blocks that number in the 100s of thousands (or millions in the case of SBCs and BBCs) and a very limited production (read: near custom) motor - the LT5 Adding to that, it's a custom crank for a very limited production motor to begin with.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the Bryant crank is a billet steel job. It starts out as a single piece of billet steel and the crank is then CNC sculpted from it. And, last I heard, the price tag is $5500 per copy. That makes offset grinding of a stock crank "attractive".

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/Offsetgrinding.jpg

P.

[ALZR1]

Jag is right. There's a big difference between buying cranks for blocks that number in the 100s of thousands (or millions in the case of SBCs and BBCs) and a very limited production (read: near custom) motor - the LT5 Adding to that, it's a custom crank for a very limited production motor to begin with.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the Bryant crank is a billet steel job. It starts out as a single piece of billet steel and the crank is then CNC sculpted from it. And, last I heard, the price tag is $5500 per copy. That makes offset grinding of a stock crank "attractive".

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/Offsetgrinding.jpg

P.


Bryant Crank $5300.00 delivered to my door.The Crank cost is about $4200.00
the rest of the money comes from the balancing and shipping.To balance
My Bryant crank they used 16 pieces/slugs of mallory.

AL

[Polo-1]

WOW Thats a lot of mallory
The Bryant are pretty and lite weight.

I went with the Moldex ( on the 402 ) it was $23 or $2400 to the door. But it was not finished. I did not have my final bob weights, also it did not get the knife edge that I wanted. In the end with finish work $35-3700.

That's why the 380ci was built for GC. Want more for less $$ idea's.
If I do one for me or someone else in the future it will be with the ground stock crank again. To be able to take $35-$5500 off the bill of the motor makes it allot nicer.

[GOLDCYLON]

WOW Thats a lot of mallory
The Bryant are pretty and lite weight.

I went with the Moldex ( on the 402 ) it was $23 or $2400 to the door. But it was not finished. I did not have my final bob weights, also it did not get the knife edge that I wanted. In the end with finish work $35-3700.

That's why the 380ci was built for GC. Want more for less $$ idea's.
If I do one for me or someone else in the future it will be with the ground stock crank again. To be able to take $35-$5500 off the bill of the motor makes it allot nicer.


Well lets talk about the next build!!! Another 380!!!!!

[GOLDCYLON]

She's lives.

Enjoy brotha :cheers:

Hey Dennis, we agree on something :dancing

Pete


I enjoyed 1500 miles of it over the last two days. Its running strong!!!! Thanks for those cams Pete. Up to doing another set of Intakes? GC

[GOLDCYLON]

That is the plan for my car. Likely next winter

:cheers:

David


You heard it this morning David!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

[XfireZ51]

I enjoyed 1500 miles of it over the last two days. Its running strong!!!! Thanks for those cams Pete. Up to doing another set of Intakes? GC

GC,

Glad to see the calibration is working out. We'll need data logging to get a finer tune, but its good to see we're close.

:proud:;)

[ZZZZZR1]

You heard it this morning David!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

I'm sure the AH you passed heard it too!!!!

:salute:

David

[GOLDCYLON]

I'm sure the AH you passed heard it too!!!!

:salute:

David


Yep RV that pulled right out in front of me lol

[Paul Workman]

Some pictures via the FBI skunkworks...

First, the open deck solution...

Haibeck's caged sleeves: Aluminum cage is machined from a single billet of aluminum

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/brassknuckles2.jpg

Then the cage is welded to the block and machined to form a home for the BIG sleeves.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/knuckleswelldedandhoned.jpg

Top view of the Haibeck 441 open deck LT5. Notice the steels sleeve liners and the cage surrounding them. This configuration offers exceptional stability and durability and oil consumption control.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/MarcH441blocktopview.jpg

Frank U has the Haibeck 441 and (last I heard) has over 30k miles on it and it makes gobs of power in all the right places, seen here...

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/441dynograph.jpg

(Continued)

[Paul Workman]

Here is AES's appoach, modeled off of some very highly boosted Hondas that seem to hold together quite well too.

The closed deck sleeve differs from the open deck sleeve in that the sleeve wears a "hat". When that hat is combined with the other sleeves, they completely closes off the water jacket from the head, except for coolant circulation gallies. This approach is more resitant (in theory) to gasket damage in the case of mild overheating. And, apparently the design is favorable to boosting (judging by their use in highly boosted Honda motors). Note: The block has to be relieved to accomodate the collar or hat around the sleeves.

The AES sleeves...

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/Closeddecksleeve3_zps526c21c5.jpg

Here we see the sleeves resting in their assigned cylinders before being pressed into place.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/Closeddecksleeve4_zps7df6d873.jpg

And here the sleeves and pistons are installed.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/Closeddeck5_zps51864e25.jpg

The closed deck approach is relatively new, but so far there are 3 of them in the northern IL area: a pair of 441s and a screamin' 427 that run in the 10s, and yet have perfect street manners if not quite a stock idle! ;)

As I said earlier, there are those that STILL view the LT5 as the King of the HILL on a day to day basis, and are dedicated to pick up where GM (unfortunately) left off. I mean really...When you see the numbers Frank's and Kevin's, and Bob's 441/427s make, normally aspirated, and idle like a stocker (OK, a rough stocker) and are perfectly happy to go for a cruise or smoke the quarter mile... Well, all I can do is shake my head. And, to put the icing on the point, watch Pete turn in low 11s (even a couple 11.01s) on a stock bottom 350 LT5 that will cruise happily in city traffic.

Don't let anyone tell you the LT5 is past it's prime. By all appearances, it is just hitting some of the high notes now. And, for the record, pushrods were around (in Chebbies) LOOOONG before DOHCs were!:p



P.

[Polo-1]

Haibeck's Big Bore is a work of art!

At $15k for block work, it's out of my league:cry:

[scottfab]

Amazing pics.
What's the HP diff between the 441 and the 427?
Kinda make a 368 seem stock.

[Paul Workman]

Amazing pics.
What's the HP diff between the 441 and the 427?
Kinda make a 368 seem stock.

I don't have any dyno sheets on Bob's 427, but both the 441s and his 427 run about 133-134 mph at the track.

P.

[Pete]

Amazing pics.
What's the HP diff between the 441 and the 427?
Kinda make a 368 seem stock.

At those levels the power is minimal something you won't notice/feel.
Some just like 427
The AES style sleeve is press fit at the top and bottom.
Yes,makes a 368 seem stock this is why i say for the cost go bigger.

There are 4 done like this (two 427's & two 441's) and if i had the extra coin i'd have a 396.

These do run 10's with lesser mods then yesteryears LT5's they have way smaller cams (3 of these have .224 duration exhaust cam) none have siamesed/droped plenums or IH's.
Heck one 441 still has stock valves and makes over 530 RWTQ
They are all very well manored and drive in traffic with no issues,of course they were tuned by me :-D

The auto 441 made 570+RWHP 500RWTQ has run a best of 10.40 @ 133 the owner drives it to and from work (35 miles each way) in Chicago traffic and races on the weekends, it's so well manored grandma can drive it :)

We will be trying something new soon looking for more power,of course it's winter nothing else to do :-D

Soon we might see more power with no sacrifice to street manors and
9 second ZR-1 on pump gas.

Pete

[Hog]

Anything can be done with enough time and money. This work is fascinating.

The open deck fix appears more stable.
Do the closed deck liner lock together or are they 4 independent units per cylinder bank?


$15,000US for blockwork alone is nothing to sneeze at. AES bigbore block packages start at $8500 So would we be looking at $30,000+ to drop off a car then pick it back up later on.

What happens if one of these monsters lets go, is there any warranty or are these considered raceparts?
I realize you gotta pay to play, but I'm curious. There has to be a best bang for buck combination, but with so many criteria choosing the correct setup as a customer or supplying the correct setup as a vendor has to be a daunting task. STock, reground or custom cams, displacement, fuel economy, driveability(street manners), durability, high rpm/low throttle oil control, so many choices, so much money, so much boosted or deflated reputations. The stakes are huge.
Hotrodding is such an interesting pastime, hotrodding such a limited run engine like the LT5 is even more interesting.
I'm still deciding if a ZR-1 would be right for me, I eat these discussions up like candy.

peace
Hog

[FU]

Hib thought the answer was going to be simple ? :handshak:

[Pete]

Do the closed deck liner lock together or are they 4 independent units per cylinder bank?

peace
Hog


Yes.

Pete

[Hog]

Yes.

Pete
Thanks, these ginormous LT5's a wild beasts.

peace
Hog

[Polo-1]

Hib thought the answer was going to be simple ? :handshak:

Simple.... 380 is the biggest you can go on a beer budget ( $300 over a 368 )

The pie in the sky 396 and up builds. That's Money no matter which way you go.

I remember building my 402 and it was over $30k and I built it, no drop off and pay someone to do it. The great shops out there that are doing 402-415 for $30ish my hats off to them. LT5's on the cheap, just ain't there. A over 400ci quad cam 7500rpm it's the only BEAST I would want to build.
:cheers:

[GOLDCYLON]

Simple.... 380 is the biggest you can go on a beer budget ( $300 over a 368 )

The pie in the sky 396 and up builds. That's Money no matter which way you go.

I remember building my 402 and it was over $30k and I built it, no drop off and pay someone to do it. The great shops out there that are doing 402-415 for $30ish my hats off to them. LT5's on the cheap, just ain't there. A over 400ci quad cam 7500rpm it's the only BEAST I would want to build.
:cheers:


Wheres my beer lol :cheers:

[Pete]

Simple.... 380 is the biggest you can go on a beer budget ( $300 over a 368 )

The pie in the sky 396 and up builds. That's Money no matter which way you go.

I remember building my 402 and it was over $30k and I built it, no drop off and pay someone to do it. The great shops out there that are doing 402-415 for $30ish my hats off to them. LT5's on the cheap, just ain't there. A over 400ci quad cam 7500rpm it's the only BEAST I would want to build.
:cheers:


Here you go Hib,if this doesn't answer your question i don't know what will.:)

380 is the way to go a no brainer.

Pete

[Paul Workman]

Here you go Hib,if this doesn't answer your question i don't know what will.:)

380 is the way to go a no brainer.

Pete

What would you estimate RWHP to be on a 391 w/ stock cams, Pete? (my yes, I'm intrigued!)

P.

[Hib Halverson]

(snip) And, for the record, pushrods were around LOOOONG before DOHCs were!:p
P.
Actually, for the "record"...that's not correct.

The first dual overhead camshaft engine is generally considered to have been in a 1913 Peugeot.
The first overhead valve engine was not introduced until 1918. Interestingly, it was developed by Louis Chevrolet and he patented the design.

ah but is the 12 purple .....:p

Carlisle Blue.

As for what engine package I might do for the engine in Barney, the purple '95? I've studied all the posts here and I've traded emails with Marc Haibeck, Graham B. and Jim Van Dorn. I've decided the best bang for the buck as far as performance and durability will come with a boring old 368.

I think, if I my only Corvette was Barney and I had about half-again as much money, to spend, I'd consider Marc's open deck block modification and a 4.125-bore. Marc feels the open deck block results in better oil control. I agree. I think that's critical in a non-racing application.

[ZZZZZR1]

Hib,

Great discussion! Sounds like your Barney will be formidable with that 368.

I'm going to do a similar build and going to do what Kevin suggested with a 380.

Look forward to your updating us on the build!!!!

:cheers:

David

[Pete]

Actually, for the "record"...that's not correct.

The first dual overhead camshaft engine is generally considered to have been in a 1913 Peugeot.
The first overhead valve engine was not introduced until 1918. Interestingly, it was developed by Louis Chevrolet and he patented the design.



Carlisle Blue.

As for what engine package I might do for the engine in Barney, the purple '95? I've studied all the posts here and I've traded emails with Marc Haibeck, Graham B. and Jim Van Dorn. I've decided the best bang for the buck as far as performance and durability will come with a boring old 368.

I think, if I my only Corvette was Barney and I had about half-again as much money, to spend, I'd consider Marc's open deck block modification and a 4.125-bore. Marc feels the open deck block results in better oil control. I agree. I think that's critical in a non-racing application.


Ok,now i have a few questions.
Has JVD,Graham tested/R&D'd or done anything other then 20 year old stuff?

On the better oil control how does the closed deck effect this?
Most stock LT5's have oil control issues.
We have 3 done with no issues of any kind,they drive to BG every year, race and drive back home.

Why do you wanna do a 368?
Is stock motor blown/broke?

Technology moves on,if you don't move with it you'll be left behind.
Pete

[Polo-1]

As for what engine package I might do for the engine in Barney, the purple '95? I've studied all the posts here and I've traded emails with Marc Haibeck, Graham B. and Jim Van Dorn. I've decided the best bang for the buck as far as performance and durability will come with a boring old 368.


Some of the top LT5 builders.

They will make you a very nice 425-435 rwhp 368ci. in the $20-23K range.

You do know Pete makes more power with a stock 350ci. right:confused:

[XfireZ51]

Some of the top LT5 builders.

They will make you a very nice 425-435 rwhp 368ci. in the $20-23K range.

You do know Pete makes more power with a stock 350ci. right:confused:

Polo,

I'm making 435rwhp w my stock bottom 350, GVD ported heads(small ports), and Pete's intake cams. Marc is claiming 510chp w just his ported top end and heads, stock cams. One question is whether Hib needs to pass emissions w his LT-5?

[Paul Workman]

Some of the top LT5 builders.

They will make you a very nice 425-435 rwhp 368ci. in the $20-23K range.

You do know Pete makes more power with a stock 350ci. right:confused:

To Pete (and Marc's) point... What used to be done with a 368 is eclipsed now by stock bottom and stock cammed and stock TB 350s with current porting and cam tuning now commonly achieved by those that have continued to push the envelope. And, the costs have come down measurably as well.

For $10k a closed deck block is possible. Porting, depending on personal skill, can be a DIY project, or for (about) $5k or $15k total, a 391 would be possible. Just seems (to me) to be such lost opportunity to pick up some serious performance gains, for roughly what a 368 used to cost 15-20 years ago...

Example:

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/DynoLT510-19-10.jpg

And, with some minor improvements since discovered, maybe 440 RWHP may be in store for this stock bottom, stock cammed, stock TB motor.

Just sayin....

P.

[Polo-1]

Polo,

I'm making 435rwhp w my stock bottom 350, GVD ported heads(small ports), and Pete's intake cams. Marc is claiming 510chp w just his ported top end and heads, stock cams. One question is whether Hib needs to pass emissions w his LT-5?

Good to hear Marc has up'ed his game to a 430rwhp 350. As for the others I have not heard of any updated porting/cams...

[Pete]

To Pete (and Marc's) point... What used to be done with a 368 is eclipsed now by stock bottom,stock cammed and stock TB 350s with current porting and cam tuning now commonly achieved by those that have continued to push the envelope. And, the costs have come down measurably as well.

And, with some minor improvements since discovered, maybe 440 RWHP may be in store for this stock bottom, stock cammed, stock TB motor.

Just sayin....

P.


BINGO!!!!
&
Stock Nikasil is better.:p

Today 368 is worthless

Still waiting to hear the oil issue with closed deck,any documentation on this.

Pete

[Jagdpanzer]

When comparing cost of a complete overhaul, with new OEM pistons, liners and rings, going the 368 route with good quality aftermarket piston/rings, rods and ductal iron liners is not significanty more expensive and has its advantages. Besides a little more displacement you can up the compression ratio to 12:1 for more power & torque and hone the liners installed the block using a modern deck plate honing methods for better piston and ring fit which helps with oil control. Aftermarket pistons also allow you to go with longer rods with the advantages a higher rod length ratio brings.

[Kevin]

if the stock liner coating is good enough for the audi lemans team, it's good enough for me

[Pete]

When comparing cost of a complete overhaul, with new OEM pistons, liners and rings, going the 368 route with good quality aftermarket piston/rings, rods and ductal iron liners is not significanty more expensive and has its advantages. Besides a little more displacement you can up the compression ratio to 12:1 for more power & torque and hone the liners installed the block using a modern deck plate honing methods for better piston and ring fit which helps with oil control. Aftermarket pistons also allow you to go with longer rods with the advantages a higher rod length ratio brings.

Phil,i understand the pros & cons but as we all know stock short blocks could run to 200k miles

Question still remains is the stock motor blown/broke?
If not,it's a waste to spend money for a 368, not worth the dollar to HP
Do a good top end,raise compression use Jerry's head gaskets a whole lot cheaper then doing a complete 368.
I don't think $12k-$15k is worth the extra 20hp
Basicly the pros & cons of spending this kind of money for an extra 20hp.

"It's all dollars and no sense":)
Pete

[Polo-1]

"It's all dollars and no sense":)
Pete



true dat brother

[RICKYRJ1]

Polo,

I'm making 435rwhp w my stock bottom 350, GVD ported heads(small ports), and Pete's intake cams. Marc is claiming 510chp w just his ported top end and heads, stock cams. One question is whether Hib needs to pass emissions w his LT-5?


I'm making 508 chp with a M. Haibeck 500hp package.

[Hib Halverson]

Ok,now i have a few questions.
Has JVD,Graham tested/R&D'd or done anything other then 20 year old stuff?
Good point. My guess is the last new development Lingenfelter's or Automasters have done on LT5 performance enhancements came in the late 90s/early-00s.

And, yes, I get the implication in your question, but, to me, it seems, maybe, a little bit arrogant. I suggest that it's unlikely you'd be where you are now had those folks not done their "20 year old stuff."

Ya think your attitude might sour potential customers who are outside of your flock of admirers here on the Registry forum? Much less get someone connected with media interested in your product?[-X

On the better oil control how does the closed deck effect this?Good question which I can't answer. I stated earlier that I based my belief on what Haibeck said to me in an email. I have not personally tested a closed deck LT5 for oil control but, I do put some faith in what Marc tells me. I've known him for a long time.
Most stock LT5's have oil control issues.
Thankfully, mine does not...at least, not with the way I drive it most of the time. I suppose, if I was tracking the car and running laps such that the engine spent lot of time above 5000 rpm, I probably would. Currently my oil consumption is about a quart every 8000-miles. In the "old" days, when the car was a magazine project, we put about 100 dyno passes, maybe a dozen or so drag strip passes and several track days on the car, but nowadays, it just gets run hard on the street.

We have 3 done with no issues of any kind,they drive to BG every year, race and drive back home.

Three trips from DesPlaines to BG and back cruising on the highway along with, say, fifteen or so, 11-sec. drag strip passes. I take it, I'm to accept that as demonstrative of good durability and oil control superior to that of "20-year old stuff"? That in mind...I'm curious. Have you run any GM durability test schedules on the engines you build?
Why do you wanna do a 368?
Is stock motor blown/broke?
Nope. There's nothing really wrong with it other than 60,000 or so miles and 15 years in service. Ok. I admit that, of late, my oil use has gone from about a quart every 10,000-miles to a qt in 8000-mi, so maybe I need stem seals. Mainly, I just was thinking of updating the engine but, admittedly, I want to do it on (as someone else aptly stated) a "beer budget."

Technology moves on,if you don't move with it you'll be left behind.

I submit: if you truly believed that, you'd be doing LS7s.
:cheers:

[RICKYRJ1]

Good point. My guess is the last new development Lingenfelter's or Automasters have done on LT5 performance enhancements came in the late 90s/early-00s.

And, yes, I get the implication in your question, but, to me, it seems, maybe, a little bit arrogant. I suggest that it's unlikely you'd be where you are now had those folks not done their "20 year old stuff."

Ya think your attitude might sour potential customers who are outside of your flock of admirers here on the Registry forum? Much less get someone connected with media interested in your product?[-X

Good question which I can't answer. I stated earlier that I based my belief on what Haibeck said to me in an email. I have not personally tested a closed deck LT5 for oil control but, I do put some faith in what Marc tells me. I've known him for a long time.
Thankfully, mine does not...at least, not with the way I drive it most of the time. I suppose, if I was tracking the car and running laps such that the engine spent lot of time above 5000 rpm, I probably would. Currently my oil consumption is about a quart every 8000-miles. In the "old" days, when the car was a magazine project, we put about 100 dyno passes, maybe a dozen or so drag strip passes and several track days on the car, but nowadays, it just gets run hard on the street.

Three trips from DesPlaines to BG and back cruising on the highway along with, say, fifteen or so, 11-sec. drag strip passes. I take it, I'm to accept that as demonstrative of good durability and oil control superior to that of "20-year old stuff"? That in mind...I'm curious. Have you run any GM durability test schedules on the engines you build?
Nope. There's nothing really wrong with it other than 60,000 or so miles and 15 years in service. Ok. I admit that, of late, my oil use has gone from about a quart every 10,000-miles to a qt in 8000-mi, so maybe I need stem seals. Mainly, I just was thinking of updating the engine but, admittedly, I want to do it on (as someone else aptly stated) a "beer budget."

I submit: if you truly believed that, you'd be doing LS7s.
:cheers:

I find this response out of line for the question Pete has asked. Pete and the FBI Crew have been on the cutting edge of the many LT5 improvments. These guys are running some fast reliable Z's. Most members here would not hesitate to hand their cars over to them to work on. From what I have read in the posts the only thing these guys were trying to do was help you maximize your performance dollars. Its your car so its your call, but remember you asked the question in the 1st place. Good Luck

[Pete]

:)Good point. My guess is the last new development Lingenfelter's or Automasters have done on LT5 performance enhancements came in the late 90s/early-00s.

And, yes, I get the implication in your question, but, to me, it seems, maybe, a little bit arrogant. I suggest that it's unlikely you'd be where you are now had those folks not done their "20 year old stuff."

Ya think your attitude might sour potential customers who are outside of your flock of admirers here on the Registry forum? Much less get someone connected with media interested in your product?[-X

Good question which I can't answer. I stated earlier that I based my belief on what Haibeck said to me in an email. I have not personally tested a closed deck LT5 for oil control but, I do put some faith in what Marc tells me. I've known him for a long time.
Thankfully, mine does not...at least, not with the way I drive it most of the time. I suppose, if I was tracking the car and running laps such that the engine spent lot of time above 5000 rpm, I probably would. Currently my oil consumption is about a quart every 8000-miles. In the "old" days, when the car was a magazine project, we put about 100 dyno passes, maybe a dozen or so drag strip passes and several track days on the car, but nowadays, it just gets run hard on the street.

Three trips from DesPlaines to BG and back cruising on the highway along with, say, fifteen or so, 11-sec. drag strip passes. I take it, I'm to accept that as demonstrative of good durability and oil control superior to that of "20-year old stuff"? That in mind...I'm curious. Have you run any GM durability test schedules on the engines you build?
Nope. There's nothing really wrong with it other than 60,000 or so miles and 15 years in service. Ok. I admit that, of late, my oil use has gone from about a quart every 10,000-miles to a qt in 8000-mi, so maybe I need stem seals. Mainly, I just was thinking of updating the engine but, admittedly, I want to do it on (as someone else aptly stated) a "beer budget."

I submit: if you truly believed that, you'd be doing LS7s.
:cheers:

I do not do the closed deck it's done by AES anybody can call and get it done.
I'm not selling anything.
When i saw the crazy prices on LT5 parts i went out and found/made lower cost replacements and were initially made for myself but if anyone wants what i have they are welcome to them.
Basicly i don't care where or who does your motor the advise i'm trying to pass on to you is not worth doing a 368 for the money.
I know it's your money and you can do whatever you want with it but you came on an open forum with the question did you think everyone was giong to agree with you?

Because someone disagrees with you does this mean they have an attitude.
If you think you won't like the answers i suggest don't post questions on a puplic forum.

Question right back at ya, has any other tuner done durability tests?
I will need documents from GM on the durability of the 368.

Well if five 1000 mile trips,racing her hard,driving in Chicago traffic is not good testing,what is?

We try to do testing on parts as best as we can without having to spend millions of dollars and thousands of hours, Jerry tested his head gaskets did he spend millions and thousands of hours i don't know,i was satisfied with his testing and i'm using his head gaskets will they hold up
200k miles i don't know i'll post up when i get there,so far they held up to 4500rpm clutch drops,
130mph 1/4 with some aggresive street driving,good enough for me.


Man if you use 1 qrt every 8k miles that is one killer motor i would not touch the short block,there i go again disagreeing with you.lol

LS7 pushrods been around since caveman.:)

The only attitude i have is because i'm not a yesman. :)

You asked i replied maybe you didn't like the answer so i have an attitude.
Oh well,lifes too short.
Eitherway enjoy your choice.
Pete

P.S.
For those that know me know i love the LS7/LS9 the reason for smiley.

[Polo-1]

Hey Hib, Pete's Greek, need to cut him a little slack :D

I have known Pete from BG and here, bought some of his parts. He is a stand up guy. He has spent some time and a good deal of money on cam research, and has come out with good stuff.

The tech comment... LS7 has more technology? I own both. The LT5 has better tech then the LS7. We all know multi cam and valves out does a single setup.
Didn't the last LT5 design ( mid 90's) make 550hp from 350ci. LS7 is 505hp from 427ci and dropping valves....

[ZZZZZR1]

Hib,


If you knew Pete, you would want his advice.


Looks like you are set in doing the 368! Go for it and I'm sure you will be 100% happy with the end result.


No doubt barney will be in a magazine by this time next year :Eagle:

Please keep us updated and look forward to see it!

:cheers:

David

[XfireZ51]

Pete,

You don't need to justify yourself and your capability to anyone on this forum, especially anyone that doesn't turn their own wrenches.

[ScottZ95ZR1]

I find this response out of line for the question Pete has asked. Pete and the FBI Crew have been on the cutting edge of the many LT5 improvments. These guys are running some fast reliable Z's. Most members here would not hesitate to hand their cars over to them to work on. From what I have read in the posts the only thing these guys were trying to do was help you maximize your performance dollars. Its your car so its your call, but remember you asked the question in the 1st place. Good Luck

I'm with you, Ricky. Should I, Could I, Would I.... sounded like an invitation for feedback and he got it from one of the very best, gratis, no charge. What a smartazz.

[Blue Flame Restorations]

I'm extremely happy with the work Pete did for the Turq Monster.

[tcz062]

Might sound like a stupid question but when your talking about 368 is that a LT5 punched .020 over ? Or is that the street skinner package ?

[Paul Workman]

Might sound like a stupid question but when your talking about 368 is that a LT5 punched .020 over ? Or is that the street skinner package ?

It is an LT5 with 4" sleeves instead of the stock 3.9s.

[-=Jeff=-]

I do put some faith in what Marc tells me. I've known him for a long time.

I also have know Marc for at least 12 years.. I have known Pete for over 15 years..

I would trust my car with either of them. Both have incredible knowledge on the LT5 and both do amazing work

Good luck with whatever you decide..

[Hib Halverson]

I've made no decisions yet. A freshening/upgrading of the engine is on my "wish list" but, as yet, is not on my "do" list.

To be honest, the 350 in the car still runs pretty good. What I don't like--never have liked since I bought a C5 in 2004--is the car's weight.

When the engine was done back in the day, the car made 413 at the wheels (I don't have headers and do have cats) which, considering the 18% loss of C4s, had me at a hair over 500-hp.

My 04 Z06 (430-hp LS6) was just about as quick or maybe a tick quicker, depending on the air and if my driving is on the mark, and I attribute that to the weight difference between a 95 ZR1 and the 04 Z06. I'm not going to gut my ZR1 into a Snake Skinner so the only other choice is to bump the power up another notch.

That's where I come up with the 368.

I was thinking of budgeting 10 grand for the engine upgrade and the R&R.

While I dream about more power, I've got the '95 out in the shop, upgrading the sound system. Easy and cheap jobs first, you see.
:cheers:

[sammy]

dont mean to hijack this thread. pete if you were doing an AES block what would you build if you were using the stk crank? also would you offset grind the crank ?

[Hib Halverson]

(snip)
Because someone disagrees with you does this mean they have an attitude.Re-read the post. You'll note I never disagreed, but I did ask some questions and stated I felt you have an "attitude".If you think you won't like the answers i suggest don't post questions on a puplic forum.:nono:It is unnecessary to lecture me about public forums on web, I've been around them a long time. Folks need to try harder if they're expecting that I..."won't like answers."

Question right back at ya, has any other tuner done durability tests?

Silly question and you know it.
It's possible operations like Katech or LPE may have done some sort of "durability" testing on their engine packages but the rest of the "tuners" either lack the resources, the time, the money or the smarts to durability test aftermarket engine enhancement packages.Well if five 1000 mile trips,racing her hard,driving in Chicago traffic is not good testing,what is?I never said 5000 road miles and several dozen drag strip passes was "...not good testing." What I asked you was if your road miles and drag racing were...
"...demonstrative of good durability and oil control superior to that of "20-year old stuff"?

I will need documents from GM on the durability of the 368.

Sheesh you're a smart-***.
Obviously, GM never ran a 368 for durability as it was not production...although it should have been as the four-oh bore would have unshrouded the valves offering a useful power gain out of proportion to the 18 cuin increase in displacement. We owe the 3.9 bore to some GM executives' moronic insistence that the bore centers on the LT5 be 4.440-in. Had Lotus done what they wanted and used a 4-in. bore and a larger distance between bore CLs, the first gen. (two-bolt) engine would have come in at 400-horses and ZF wouldn't have had to make a special version of the S6-40 for ZR-1s, but, I digress...

I suspect that given stock or RB cams and a reasonable rev limit, a properly assembled 368 is going to approach the durability of a stock 350. It's possible the only place it might get weak is oil use after very high mileage, say over 125,000-mi. I say that only because my belief is the steel liners' walls might not be quite as durable as the nikasil-plated aluminum liners in stockers.

Jerry tested his head gaskets did he spend millions and thousands of hours...unlikely... i don't know,i was satisfied with his testing and i'm using his head gaskets will they hold up 200k miles.Jerry Downey sells mighty fine head gaskets. I suspect they'll last "forever" as long as they're not abused. But, your comparison is weak. To get head gaskets with outstanding durability for modified engines ain't rocket science. You go to a high-end head gasket maker like Cometic or SCE, and have them make some killer MLS piece for the LT5. No problem as long as you have the money. Durability testing a highly-modified engine is another story all together. Man if you use 1 qrt every 8k miles that is one killer motor i would not touch the short block,there i go again disagreeing with you.lolThe engine was assembled by one of those guys who does 20-year old stuff.:dancing
LS7 pushrods been around since caveman.:Actually DOHC engines predate pushrod engines by about five years. Both showed up long after cavemen but pushrod engines are a more contemporary development.

And now, some more questions...
It was said earlier that a 380 is only about $300 more expensive than doing a 368.
Ok.
How does one get the additional 12 cid to 380 and how much additional torque does that get me?

Lastly...ya know, I just noticed all these flag waving smilies.
:proud:
Indeed I am!!

:cheers:

[Paul Workman]

Hib...

I believe you've got the wrong idea somewhere about Pete, in particular, but other purveyors of the LT5 in general. And, it is clear too that you've been out of touch with developments taken place with that engine over the past 20 years.

Of course you're absolutely correct that we wouldn't even be having this discussion were it not for those pioneers of 20 years ago - and we're forever greatful to them too!

Case in point, here is some modding based on Lingenfelter's work that is being applied to this head. Wanna talk about un-shrouding the intake valves? That is only a beginning.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/Lingenfeltercut.jpg

I'm sure you can appreciate that truth is where you find it. It matters not if truth came from talented professional automotive engineers with an alphabet of credentials following their names, or some dedicated experimenter in his garage that makes a profound discovery...or two...or...

The misunderstanding may have come from your initial post: "Would I..." It seemed to me and others too, including Pete, that you were genuinely asking for comment on your 368 plan. I can't imagine you would have received the outpouring of information about other options if it was clear from the start that your question was a rhetorical one (or so it seems).

So, here's my point: It would be a mistake to think the sun rises and sets on the LSx (pushrod) platform as "state of the art". Taking nothing away from the LSx platform, much of the hub-bub it garners comes from cubic inches and supercharging and (in no small part) modern computer controls (not to mention the incessant exuberance pouring out of some automotive "tech writer's" articles these days). To say pushrod technology eclipses the DOHC architecture as "state of the art" completely dismisses the efficiency and dynamic versitility and flexibility afforded by DOHC. (You might like to witness the comparison to the NA LS7 and a 7.0L LT5 and see if it doesn't leave you scratching your head!)

Much is being done now with DOHC platforms, e.g., cam phasing and even 5 valves/cylinder. There in lies an opportunity for one such as yourself to shed some light on these latest inovations and compare them and some innovations to the LT5. It would be of immense interest to members of the Registry and be an opportunity to really put a spotlight on those efforts of 20 years ago, and what may have ultimately been the result if GM (Corvette) had gone another path!

Perhaps a visit to the digs known as the "FBI" would be a chance to meet Pete, make some new friends, meet some of the "behind the scenes" talent residing here. It would be a chance to see firsthand what is being done, has been done, and hear some of the technical discussions over one of the famous (infamous?) FBI pizza nights. Just a thought. I expect you'd come away with a new perspective and appreciation for what Pete and others were sharing with regard to alternatives to the 368 option.

There are "doers" and those that only write about it (present company excepted). For the latter to take on the former is like the preverbal "bringing a knife to a gunfight!"

Peace be with you and good luck on whatever path you decide. And, even if it is just 368, let me plant a seed: Marc recently revisited a 368 (done by another well known tuner) that was putting down about what you said yours does now. After Marc "laid hands" on it he ended up with 450 hp to the rear wheels on stock cams. Q: How many 6.0L LSx motors put down those numbers with a smooth 750 rpm idle? Are we sure the LSx isn't at or near it's pinnacle, whereas the really impressive performance numbers are now being made by "that other" (non-pushrod) platform? How 'bout a stock bottom end LT5, NA with street manners that is making 474 hp to the rear wheels? I'm sure the pioneers would be proud!

Look forward to your thoughts, and even more the chance for you to meet some of this infamous gang of carbide cowboys of the "FBI", break bread and smoke some rubber. Butcha better hurry... Up here in da nawth cuntree snow will be a flying soon enough!

P.

[Blue Flame Restorations]

If I were writing the check, the 368 would not be a consideration since there are more cost effective $$$/per HP options available these days, thanks to guys like Pete and Marc.

The old saying, "you get what you pay for" seems to resonate with me.

[scottfab]

Hib
You should step up the the bigger cubes the FBI offers.
Maybe not the top cubes but North of 400.
What's a few bucks? And the write-up you could do
would help the ZR-1 and Corvettes in general not
to mention yourself. :notworthy