Flood damage

[VetteVet]

Hi all,

I know that i've been MIA for a while (been very busy with work and racing), but I need some advice from the brotherhood.

Has anyone had a car totalled during the process of restoration?

My 1991 ZR-1 suffered flood damage during Hurricane Isaac and is being totalled by my insurance company.

It's very frustrating, because the interior, suspension and driveline were all done and paint was in progress.

The car took saltwater and diesel fuel in the interior and because of that fact, the insurance company is totalling it. I agree with their decision, but am not happy with the fact that they are demanding all of the parts, even the aftermarket and performance parts that I paid good money for. Even the porting of the plenum, IH's and heads is going to be lost because
they want the engine.

Can anyone provide any advice or suggestions?

Thanks,
Jep

[Kevin]

see if you can buy it back or swap out the parts with stock ones...or whatever you have laying around

[VetteVet]

Kevin,

That was quick!

Unfortunately, Louisiana just passed a law making it illegal for an insurance company to sell back to the owner. I don't have many of the original parts (disposed of them) and I certainly don't have a junk LT5 laying around.

I'm really freaking right about now!!

Jep

[USAFPILOT]

set it on fire then...they are just going to make money off of your loss.

[USAFPILOT]

just tell them the engine was already sold.

[USAFPILOT]

i bet those wheels could disappear pretty easy if you leave the car outside.

[Kevin]

Kevin,

That was quick!

Unfortunately, Louisiana just passed a law making it illegal for an insurance company to sell back to the owner. I don't have many of the original parts (disposed of them) and I certainly don't have a junk LT5 laying around.

I'm really freaking right about now!!

Jep

you don't have any friends you could hand the insurance check to and have them buy it then transfer the title back to you?

[VetteVet]

you don't have any friends you could hand the insurance check to and have them buy it then transfer the title back to you?

Kevin,

Thanks again. From talking to people in the business, it seems like the car might take a year or two to make it through the system before it comes up for auction. Who knows how many parts will disappear and how much damage it will suffer while being moved around. And then it will still have a salvage or flood damage title. I'm not interested in keeping the car or getting it back. My main concern is that I will be forced to give up a lot of the good parts that I've accumulated over the years. I'm already resigned to the fact that I will have to find another car. I just hate the thought of "two steps forward, one step back". Sorry that I didn't make that clear enough.

By the way, the insurance company called me earlier today to verify the VIN. They said that they are "having trouble decoding it" in order to determine the value of the car. I'm already having bad feelings about this.

Thanks,
Jep

[LGAFF]

Can call me, I work in ins.....let me know. You really do not want a salt water flood car back.....anything that rotates and wiring is toast. Sorry to hear about the car.

[Kevin]

do you have another v8 sitting around? Now I'm not telling you to pull the LT5 and swap in an l98....but I sure am thinking it quite loudly

[VetteVet]

do you have another v8 sitting around? Now I'm not telling you to pull the LT5 and swap in an l98....but I sure am thinking it quite loudly

Kevin,

I've thought of giving it a try. The motor was out of the car, so I wouldn't have to swap it (although I've heard some rumblings from the insurance company that they expect an assembled car). All that I have laying around in the garage is a $14,000 Lingenfelter motor that I'm damn sure not going to give up. I thought about hitting a junk yard and picking up a pull out V8, but I hate to go through all of that only to have the salvage company call me out on it.


Can call me, I work in ins.....let me know. You really do not want a salt water flood car back.....anything that rotates and wiring is toast. Sorry to hear about the car.

Lee,

I forgot that you work in the insurance industry. Could you PM me your # or e-mail it to me at vettevet_AT_charter.net? Or you could just call me at 985-789-5118 at your convenience.

Thanks, you guys on this forum are great!!!

Jep

[mike100]

Oh man...bad luck for sure.

I don't know what recourse you have with insurance law in LA, but I guess one of the options is to not make a claim and part out the stuff you need to keep.

[hiperf406]

Alot of the ideas expressed here are more than likey called fraud.

[USAFPILOT]

thats why they are ideas...but hell the insurance company is just legalized fraud. It is you vs them in this situation. What they don't know won't bother them.

[BigJohn]

Tell them you are dropping your claim!!!!!!!!!!
:cheers:

[LGAFF]

Wow, Really?

thats why they are ideas...but hell the insurance company is just legalized fraud. It is you vs them in this situation. What they don't know won't bother them.

[A1990]

Tell them you are dropping your claim!!!!!!!!!!
:cheers:

I am with Big John. Drop the claim. Part out what you can or sell it to Y-ME he will part it. Buy another ZR-1, sell the engine and drop yours in.

[LGAFF]

Hey Jep, I have the Mercriuser plate for that car, you dissappeared on me.....

[USAFPILOT]

dropping the claim is probably the smartest idea...but will involve the most work. I still think insurance companies are crooks, and forced on us by the govt. They are good for liability, but when it comes to repairing cars or totaling them, they are corrupt.

[LGAFF]

I guess that makes me a crook; pretty evident by my reputation on this forum as dishonest, right?

[LGAFF]

Dropping the claim makes no sense until you first find out what the settlement offer is.... Will an insurance settlement pay you more than what the car is worth, no.......will it pay you dollar for dollar for the parts you put on the car, no.....but then again neither will the open market. Premiums are based on actual cash value; it does not cover you for being upside down, etc.

What someone is offered is based upon actual sales, and as much as everyone wants to think there is some big conspiracy with the ins co and government; newsflash.... there is not... govt officials are elected and they make sure constituents are made happy; they hire actuarials to review requested premiunm increases, and guess what...the market drives prices to center. The company I work for was recently named one of the most efficient and wisely run companies over the last ten years. During a GREAT year we run a 15 cent on the dollar profit, some years its a negative. Thats done through risk assessment, most of our return is investing in low risk bonds that actually help fund your schools, etc.

Even ins companies buy insurance.....

Yes insurance companies turn a profit, just like the gas station, GM, and everyone else.

Ask someone who lost their home if the $700 they paid this year was worth the $700K we paid them when they lost everything, or the retiree who can still give his kids an inheritance after he accidently killed someone when he ran a stop sign.

People hate insurance because they do not get a tangible product, but truth be told it holds social value, it allows banks to give out loans, compensates people for injury, and protects you. If you never use it, consider yourself lucky.

[LGAFF]

Jep, I have sent a note to NADA and let them know that the 1991 ZR-1 is missing from the website.

[A1990]

Lee are they going to offer him $14k for the engine in his car? An engine he has put cash money into and never ran? Unless he has an agreed value policy I sincerely doubt it. If you are going by NADA guidelines they don't care if you put $14k into an engine. Book value of a 91 ZR-1 will probably give him back his money for the engine and basically take the rest of his car.

Two schools of thought: Buy a stock ZR-1, keep it stock and buy regular insurance. OR Buy or modify a ZR-1 get agreed value policy.

Putting major money into a ZR-1 and having regular insurance just doesn't ever add up.

[LGAFF]

Jep,

Here is the information on the DOI if needed, also note that Title 22 requries an adjuster be lic and knowledgable....if they cause grief, escalate the call to the home office:


(5) When an insurance policy provides for the adjustment and settlement of
first-party motor vehicle total losses on the basis of actual cash value or
replacement with another of like kind and quality, and the insurer elects a cash
settlement based on the actual cost to purchase a comparable motor vehicle, such
costs shall be derived by using one of the following:
(a) A fair market value survey conducted using qualified retail automobile dealers
in the local market area as resources. If there are no dealers in the local market
area, the nearest reasonable market can be used.
(b) The retail cost as determined from a generally recognized used motor vehicle
industry source; such as, an electronic database, if the valuation documents
generated by the database are provided to the first-party claimant, or a guidebook
that is available to the general public. If the insured demonstrates, by presenting
two independent appraisals, based on measurable and discernable factors, including
the vehicle's preloss condition, that the vehicle would have a higher cash value
in the local market area than the value reflected in the source's database or the
guidebook, the local market value shall be used in determining the actual cash value.
(c) A qualified expert appraiser selected and agreed upon by the insured and insurer.
The appraiser shall produce a written nonbinding appraisal establishing the actual
cash value of the vehicle's preloss condition.
(d) For the purposes of this Paragraph, local market area shall mean a reasonable
distance surrounding the area where a motor vehicle is principally garaged, or the
usual location of the vehicle covered by the policy.

[LGAFF]

As I understand it, he is doing the work hinmself, so unlikely there is 14K in the motor. Heck I have seen several new 405 motors trading for $3500-4K. My point is, its possible he may get a good offer(if they figure out what a ZR-1 is) with the market he could get a lower mile example......or take the settlement and see if they will take some $ back in return for the motor:

Ex: offer $19,000
Salvage quote, $6,000
______________________

Ask if you can keep the motor and take $17K


Lee are they going to offer him $14k for the engine in his car? An engine he has put cash money into and never ran? Unless he has an agreed value policy I sincerely doubt it. If you are going by NADA guidelines they don't care if you put $14k into an engine. Book value of a 91 ZR-1 will probably give him back his money for the engine and basically take the rest of his car.

Two schools of thought: Buy a stock ZR-1, keep it stock and buy regular insurance. OR Buy or modify a ZR-1 get agreed value policy.

Putting major money into a ZR-1 and having regular insurance just doesn't ever add up.

[LGAFF]

use the mecum auction values to set the $; offer 50% at $2K

[A1990]

Kevin,

I've thought of giving it a try. The motor was out of the car, so I wouldn't have to swap it (although I've heard some rumblings from the insurance company that they expect an assembled car). All that I have laying around in the garage is a $14,000 Lingenfelter motor that I'm damn sure not going to give up. I thought about hitting a junk yard and picking up a pull out V8, but I hate to go through all of that only to have the salvage company call me out on it.




Lee,

I forgot that you work in the insurance industry. Could you PM me your # or e-mail it to me at vettevet_AT_charter.net? Or you could just call me at 985-789-5118 at your convenience.

Thanks, you guys on this forum are great!!!

Jep

Lee, I was using Jep's words...see above.

[BigJohn]

Let's see 405hp LT-5's sale for $4,000.00; I will take two please!!!
:handshak::handshak:

[LGAFF]

Mecum Indy 2011; I was there...check their website...

[Mystic ZR-1]

Big John
If you buy them, what's the plan? Put one in the '38 and the other in the motorhome? Patriot Place Thursday? Colchester tomorrow (may be too wet)?
D

[BigJohn]

I guess, I shouldn't dream about a missed opertunity!!!
:cry:

Doug I can not leave work until after 4:00pm Thursday..:neutral:

[Hog]

Mecum Indy 2011; I was there...check their website...
That was where the Mr Paul Dehnert's collection was sold. I dont see any mention of brand new LT5's for $4000. I see a used LT5.
I dunno.

peace
Hog

[LGAFF]

I was as was there as was Brody, I bought an entire truckload of parts, including the 17X13 dymags now on B Hendersons cars...I bid one Lt-5 to $3500 and the other to $3800....but with no room decided to halt at those numbers, one was in the crate, the other was the engine Paul D had as a coffee table.

You have to pay 15% fee and then In sales tax also on top of that

[LGAFF]

My bad I was wrong with my info...there were 3 motors

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14741&highlight=paul

[cvette98pacecar]

My bad I was wrong with my info...there were 3 motors

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14741&highlight=paul

There was another motor that sold this year in Indy for 3500

[VetteVet]

My apologies to all. I have been so tied up with wrangling with my insurance company that I have not been able to keep up with this thread and for some reason, the website has not been sending me e-mails notifying me of new posts in this thread.

First of all, I'd like to offer up a big thanks to Lee for all of his help and sage advice.

Now for the updates:

I contacted NADA and spoke to Alex. He did agree with me that there was a problem with their website in that it did not properly denote their high retail value of 34.4k as actually being the correct value for a ZR-1. He stated that it was an IT problem and would put in a request to have it corrected. He also offered to send me and/or my insurance company official correspondence stating such.

My insurance company offered me $8000.00 and made it clear that they were being very generous because they had found examples of running 1991 ZR-1's as low as $7000.00 and had even found a 2000 mile car in pristine condition for $17,000.

The adjustor, who is a company employee and not a contractor brought in to help deal with the catstrophe stated to my face that his company would pay me "full retail value for a running car" because he had witnessed the state of restoration.

Furthermore, both my agent and the bean counter with their Total Loss Unit admitted that their company pays NADA high retail value for total loss vehicles as a matter of policy.

Once the bean counter latched onto the fact that NADA did not have a value established on the car, he proceeded to do some very flawed research into the value of my car that exploited the current bug in Ebay that is forcefully misidentifying base 1991 corvettes as ZR-1's (If you don't believe me, do a search on Ebay and you will see ads for ZR-1's where the text in the ad emphatically states "THE EBAY VIN SEARCH LISTED THIS AS A ZR1 IN ERROR. IT IS NOT, IT IS THE BASIC COUPE."

Here is the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1991-Chevrolet-Corvette-Hatchback-2-Door-5-7L-/251151774043?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3a79cff15b

Here is another one, where the seller states "ALSO, E-BAY SHOWS THIS IN THE VIN SEARCH TO BE A ZR-1, BUT IT IS NOT.":

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1993-Chevrolet-Corvette-40TH-ANNIVERSARY-Hatchback-2-Door-5-7L-/251151266431?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3a79c8327f

My insurance company agreed to have my claim transferred to my "Local Zone" for an "independent review and valuation." Sure enough, I received a call from a Baton Rouge, LA number within less than an hour. The woman stated that "we have reviewed your claim and have decided to make you a generous offer of (you guessed it) $8000.00. Where was the independent review and valuation that they promised? It sure as hell didn't happen within that short of a time-frame.

I asked the woman "What if I completed the reassembly and presented you with a running, drivable, fully functional car?" Her reply was "Our settlement offer would remain the same at $8000.00.

To this point, I have resisted naming names, however I have been treated so shabbily and have been so thoroughly disgusted with their lack of professionalism in the handling of my claim that I feel obligated to warn others.

My insurance company is STATE FARM. I went with them because I had always had great feedback from friends and relatives about how fairly they treated their customers who suffered losses.

I have had five automobiles insured with them for many, many years with only one claim for damage to a vehicle, during Hurricane Katrina (the payout on that claim was <$1500.00). My local agent is absolutely fantastic and has been on my side throughout this whole ordeal.

However, State Farm Corporate has utterly failed me thus far.

By the way, I no longer have the option of dropping the claim. Once the claim was filed, my car was branded as "flood damaged." The value of my car is now forever tainted and the laws in my state may very well require my car to be totalled even if my wish was to drop the claim and take the hit in value.

If any of you would like to call me for further details, I would be more than happy to provide them. I have only summarized the details here. There are many, many more details to this sordid tale thus far.

I can be reached at 985-789-5118. If any of you are insured by State Farm, you may want to consider switching companies.

Thanks,
Jep

[VetteVet]

Hey Jep, I have the Mercriuser plate for that car, you dissappeared on me.....

Lee,

Did I pay you already? If not, let me know what I owe you. Since it looks like they may take this car from me whether I like it or not, I guess I could make a nice wall plaque out of it as my remembrance of my pristine Z that never was.

Thanks,
Jep

[LGAFF]

Jep, as we discussed I would escalate this to the State Farm Corporate or DOI at this point, hard to believe people are that damn stupid, fortunately our TL manager at my company is a car guy.

[USAFPILOT]

This is exactly what I saw coming...and if you work in this industry I am sorry my negative thoughts on it as a whole offend.

Absurd...as always.

Agreed value is the only way to insure these cars...but I am also sure even those companies/ policies have an out, or will just flat lie to your face and not pay.

It doesn't help the govt is backing them, and the fact that you just talked to them and filed this claim that they now get the car no matter what. That is total BS.

[Corbusa]

Let'em have the car.. IF memory serves me correctly, 6 months ago you sold the LT5 because you were going to replace it with a standard old school 350.. in fact dude still has the receipt from the exchange.. He was supposed to pick the engine up but hasn't made it down there yet. I'm sure he can be there within the week with the other engine, to complete the transaction.
PS sounds like its time to move to higher ground:) How many acres you want in TN? :)

[LGAFF]

NADA has fixed the issue: 1991 ZR-1

Pricing
Original
MSRPLow
RetailAverage
RetailHigh
Retail$64,138$14,700$22,400$34,400Options: (add options) (http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/1991/Chevrolet/CORVETTE-ZR1/2-Door-Coupe)
See all options chosen
TOTAL PRICE$64,138$14,700$22,400 $34,400 (http://www.nadaguides.com/Page/External/2022967?price=34400&year=1991&make=Chevrolet&model=CORVETTE%2BZR1&zip=60014&extLinkId=100492&routeId=392)*

[VetteVet]

Well, I was informed by State Farm today that since the car has suffered saltwater flood damage that they are obligated under state law to destroy it.

Here's my question. If I continue to refuse their settlement offer, they don't get the car. Yet they are obligated under state law to settle with me, pick up the car and have it destroyed. Seems to me that we have a Mexican stand-off. Am I missing something? Would the state come in and forcefully take the car from me? Inquiring minds want to know!

By the way, I put in a call today to the office of the president of State Farm. It took 4 attempts because during the first three attempts I was:
1) "Accidentally" disconnected
2) "Mistakenly" directed to a local State Farm agent who, amazingly enough, has a very similar name as the president of the company (and this was after emphatically stating that I was not looking to speak to an agent, but wanted to be transferred to the president of State Farm).
3) Transferred to a supervisor, yet after waiting for over ten minutes for the supervisor to pick up, I was mysteriously redirected back to the main switchboard.

I am beginning to see a pattern of behavior here and it stinks.

I did leave a message for the president, stating that I was calling because I was extremely disappointed with the manner in which my claim has been handled to this point. We'll see if anything comes of this. I seriously doubt that anything will, though.

I truly feel that State Farm has acted in bad faith and is backing me into a corner such that my options are becoming more and more limited. I am in colsultation with an attorney. I have not retained him yet as I'm holding back in an effort to allow State Farm to come to their senses and do the right thing. What can I say? My mother raised an optomist.

I'm sharing this in an effort to solicit advice but also to enlighten anyone who has or is considering insurance with this company.

Thanks,
Jep

[SteelBlueZR1]

Your best next move is to write a letter waging a formal complaint against State Farm with your State's Dept. of Insurance and Cc the Agent, claims supervisor and President of State Farm. Attach supporting documentation from NADA.
When insurance complaints are entered the Insurance Company and Management will likely change their tone. I have been a Nationwide agent and adjuster and have seen our position change when the dept of insurance got involved.

[mike100]

I don't think SF is going to be able to just come in there and seize the car without a lot of effort (they aren't actually the law). If they don't make a reasonable offer, I would plan to part it out and then surrender the body to a dismantler. Title branding won't matter to the junk man.

Probably you are getting the run-around because it is just standard practice to delay claims with some companies.

[Kevin]

....I'd read up on the castle/stand your ground laws in your state.

just saying.



and lee, i'm sorry but it's **** like this that makes people hate insurance companies. we had a member who was rear ended and had to deal with geiko who insisted that a stock bumper will fit our cars. Whatever happened with that? We pay our payments on time and when we need the service we pay for we get fucked over and over again. insurance companies, not necessarily agents, are the worst

[LGAFF]

Every company has dumbasses....seems to me you have a team that does not like to send complaints up the line and cannot think out of the box. We recently had a total loss claim with a rare Aston Martin, the owner raised the issue and we researched it and the claim settled. Key is having some who can recognize the issue and address, some people follow rules and thats all they know...we offer X based upon this evaluation thats it.....We have a saying that bad faith most often arises when you have the wrong people in the wrong file, either due to inexperience or failure to escalate.

Our company has lost bad faith claims before, usually because someone did not respond to an attorney letter within the allotted time, or we may overlook something and the insured knows it(some states make it very easy to be in a bad faith situation).....what makes this case so disturbing is the fact that a simple error is brought to thier attention and no one is willing to correct it, bringing in willful and wanton behavior....that will get you in trouble in almost any state.

Now if State Farm told him their offer was based on the fact that the car was not in one piece....I could somewhat see thier arguement. But that is apparently not the case here.....I don't want to get into ACV discussions as this is still pending, but I think all of us know values in todays market.....

My point to Jep was the ins company could get a salvage quote and see that this cars return is going to be as much or more than the ACV.

Next steps:
1)Submit 2 dealer appraisals per the LA statute. State Farm would then need to rebutt the appraisal
2)Request Appraisal per the contract.....and I guarantee he will get more than a 9K offer their, but must incurr his own fees
3)File a DOI complaint; citing failure to ensure thier adjusting staff is properly training with regard to the rules of the state of LA, an also to not thier failure to provide a fair offer under the state laws.

Its hard for me to understand how they could be this damn stupid....utlimateluy behavior like this will cost you 10 fold of the right settlement in litigation; bad faith settlements can run in the milliions...and in certain states, florida, AZ, NV once you cross that line there is no correcting...LA does not recognize bad faith quite as quickly as some on first party claims, but as the behavior continues....the door begins to open.

[LGAFF]

by the way their is a 1991 TL on ebay already at nearly 5K with between 10-12 in damage; something State farm should see..

[LGAFF]

This totalled out 91 ZR-1 is going to sell for over $7900.......Jep I saved it to my watch list if you need a printout.

[vilant]

Just reading this and Jep I'm sorry for the loss of your car and hassle your going through. If there's one thing to combat lawyers, ins, govt, etc. it's all the correct paperwork. Do all the work Lee says. I had a local govt re-assess the taxes on a property I had just purchased the year before. Needlees to say the reassessment was a lot higher then what we paid and what similar properties are worth. I was able dispute, but had to do alot of paperwork showing similar property values, purchase price, etc.. It was a PIA, but eventually we got it lowered. You should be able to get more on your claim, but your going to have to do all the research, fill out all the right forms to dispute, and provide all the right paperwork. Hopefully, everything works out for you.

[cvette98pacecar]

I had both of my cars appraised and brought the appraisals into the insurance company. If I was you I would heir an attorney.

[cvette98pacecar]

Lee, What is deal here with NADA? I added the Camaro 5.7L V8 and the price went up 10%.


Retail Low Average High
$64,130 $14,70 $22,400 $34,400
Options: (add options)
ADD-CAMARO 5.7 V8 ENG 10% 10% 10%
ADD-CORVETTE DUAL GLASS ROOF $275 $375 $450
ADD-CORVETTE PERF HNDLG PKG $600 $600 $600
ADD-CORVETTE REMOVEABLE HARDTOP $400 $600 $825
ADD-FACTORY AIR CONDITIONING 10% 10% 10%
TOTAL PRICE $64,138 $18,915 $28,455 $43,155*