clutch engagement; early

[LGAFF]

My 90 has the clutch engaging right off the the floor....good pedal pressure and fluid levels are ok, master is newer as is slave. Any thoughts?

[XfireZ51]

My 90 has the clutch engaging right off the the floor....good pedal pressure and fluid levels are ok, master is newer as is slave. Any thoughts?

Bent pedal

[LGAFF]

No both cars have the same pedal height, wondering if the slave is bad

[XfireZ51]

No both cars have the same pedal height, wondering if the slave is bad

Color of fluid?

[Jagdpanzer]

Lee,
Had the same problem on my 94 when I changed to a very grabby kevlar clutch disk. After going through a few spindles at the strip I changed over to Center Force dual friction disk and all is well now.

[LGAFF]

fluid is fresh, clear

[sammy]

did you ck the condition of the pivot ball?and the fork. . 602 619 3575 fill boudreaus ph will give you the answer

[mike100]

On other cars, my experience was that replacement flywheel dimensions and clutch mix-n-match changed the geometry enough to put the friction point way at one end of the pedal stroke. These were cable operated designs though, but that is the first thing that comes to mind. The pivot point is probably a good place to check.

[scottfab]

My 90 has the clutch engaging right off the the floor....good pedal pressure and fluid levels are ok, master is newer as is slave. Any thoughts?

Did it have this symptom straight after doing the new master and slave?
Or did it develop later?

[XfireZ51]

Did you inspect to see that slave seals were oriented properly?

[LGAFF]

If slave seals were in wrong, I would have fluid loss, correct? No fluid loss at this time, just engagement. I changed the slave at the rebuild as I thought there was a leak, so hard to say.

[XfireZ51]

If slave seals were in wrong, I would have fluid loss, correct? No fluid loss at this time, just engagement. I changed the slave at the rebuild as I thought there was a leak, so hard to say.

Lee,

Not necessarily especially if the slave is new. Is this a cast iron piece or the drawn steel? =Jeff= would be the real expert on this.

[-=Jeff=-]

yeah I had quite the ordeal with the slaves..

As Dominic asked, is it cast or drawn steel? is it a new part? If the seal is in backwards on the slave, if the car was parked nose Uphill, when you get in, push clutch and start car and it will NOT go into reverse it could be the reversed seal or a bad master.

If you pump it, does it get better?

[LGAFF]

If I hit the clutch hard it shifts very smoothly

[LGAFF]

it is NOT the cast version.....where can I get a quick replacement??

[XfireZ51]

it is NOT the cast version.....where can I get a quick replacement??

Lee,

You could take it apart and reorient the seal. Again =Jeff= could guide you on that

[LGAFF]

http://www.zfdoc.com/CHS_Actuator_Seal_Fault.htm

[-=Jeff=-]

is it a new part?

if not new, depending on the use if it seal was backwards the seal might be gone

[XfireZ51]

http://www.zfdoc.com/CHS_Actuator_Seal_Fault.htm

Lee,

The documentation for this on ZF Doc actually came from =Jeff= and his investigating the issue several years ago.

[-=Jeff=-]

Lee,

The documentation for this on ZF Doc actually came from =Jeff= and his investigating the issue several years ago.

Yeah Bill B found it there and then I confirmed it on 3 more slaves

if you need a new Slave get it here:

http://powertorquesystems.com/index.htm

I got a new master and slave from him this year.. Jim is a GREAT guy to talk to and work with

[LGAFF]

Swapped the slave, no change

[rhipsher]

I hate to say it Lee but it's possible you have a bent clutch fork. Mine would engage right off the floor. And I'm sure you remember it caused me to loose three TB's. Here's the good one next to the bent one I had. Of course that means another transmission pull.
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn63/keeno1970/bent1001.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn63/keeno1970/bent1002.jpg

[XfireZ51]

Lee,

Before you do the trans pull, make sure you have checked the seal orientation on the slave. They could come that way from the factory.

[Marc Haibeck]

Lee,

Has the low pick-up condition been present since you installed the clutch or was it okay and then the low pick-up developed?

I have never seen a low pedal caused by a defective master or slave cylinder. It could be caused by air in the system. If there is air, the free play at the top of the pedal will be excessive. The pedal free play should be less than one inch. The system self bleeds nicely. Since you have been driving the car it should be bled free of trapped air.

I wonder if the clutch disk is too thick? The OE thickness of a new disk is .320”. I have seen disks with too much marcel. That’s the wavy shim under the facing. The OE solid hub disk has very little marcel. I have seen sprung hub disks that are .325” thick. More than that and the pedal disengages the clutch closer to the floor. The pressure plate can be shimmed to compensate for a thicker disk.

If the clutch was okay when new and this has developed, the facing may have failed and is peeling up, making it act thicker than it really is.

I once encountered a car with one inch thick floor mat that caused the problem. Once had a car with two floor mats. The second mat rolled up and caused intermittent no-cranking.

[rhipsher]

Marc is probably right. If this condition developed after a clutch swap. Mine always engaged right off the floor because my clutch fork was bent long before I bought the car. What could bend a clutch fork like mine was is beyond me. Engagement is totally normal after replacing the bent fork. Just out of curiosity Lee did you reverse bleed the slave?

[LGAFF]

The clutch has good pressure at the pedal and engages well, I have to go with marc and say its something to do with the pressure plate or the clutch disc itself.

The problem off the floor is new since the install; I think the issue might be the slow leak from the rear seal(or it could be off the front trans seal). I am thinking the clutch might be contaminated and causing the early engagement; although it does not slip.

Going to brave it and drive it today to Road America.

[LGAFF]

This is a full marce,non-spriung, disc; not the one that ends 1" before the edge

[LGAFF]

Floor mat not the issue, I have been sliding it back to check

[LGAFF]

This has to be the the master; the pressure in the 92 kicks in earlier and I would think that has to be the master not creating pressure

[scottfab]

This has to be the the master; the pressure in the 92 kicks in earlier and I would think that has to be the master not creating pressure

I got to thinking about this today and some thing that happened to me shortly after buying my car in early 97.

I took the car into city traffic up in Seattle. I was in a lot of stop and go.
Lots of up hill stops where to get going there was a lot of clutch slip.
When I got onto the freeway back to the Portland area I didn't change gears. By the time I entered traffic again and pressed the clutch in the clutch plate and pressure plate had fused. I pressed hard repeatedly to get the clutch in. Well long story short, the clutch plate finally separated and I noted the clutch peddle engagement position had changed.
After cleaning the bell housing out and lubing the pivot ball I noticed the clutch fork was bent. I straightened it, put in a new clutch plate and all was good and has been for all these years.

[LGAFF]

Changed the master, now the car will not disengage the clutch at all....:-x

[XfireZ51]

Changed the master, now the car will not disengate the clutch at all....:-x

Did you bench bleed the master?

Any thought on clutch fork?

[scottfab]

Changed the master, now the car will not disengate the clutch at all....:-x

Does the peddle fell soft?
Then you have air.
Else look for a bent clutch fork.

[POWERBRAKEBOB]

The clutch master is only 11/16' piston size. The slave is 1 1/16" the small master doesn't have enough volume to operate the clutch slave with enough volume. I'm working on a larger bore master, and slave seal kit mto make it easier to shift.