New Persepctive (for me) on Dreaded No Start

[ZR1North]

I had my first experience with the "dreaded no start" last summer at about 31K miles on my '91. With great reluctance, I carefully installed the relay to route 12V "directly" to the starter (with all safety systems still intact). Almost a year to the day later, the problem reoccurred Monday after a 20-mile, stop-and-go drive.

My current view is that rather than engage in any mods when this occurs, one might be best to have the starter rebuilt or replaced with the upgraded coil, new solenoid, etc. A fresh battery is obviously critical, and you'd want to be sure the clutch switch contacts are not compromised (as mine were not).

I know a lot has been written about this problem, but given that it is one of the top issues with "precious", I thought I'd share my experience.

Cheers.

[XfireZ51]

I had my first experience with the "dreaded no start" last summer at about 31K miles on my '91. With great reluctance, I carefully installed the relay to route 12V "directly" to the starter (with all safety systems still intact). Almost a year to the day later, the problem reoccurred Monday after a 20-mile, stop-and-go drive.

My current view is that rather than engage in any mods when this occurs, one might be best to have the starter rebuilt or replaced with the upgraded coil, new solenoid, etc. A fresh battery is obviously critical, and you'd want to be sure the clutch switch contacts are not compromised (as mine were not).

I know a lot has been written about this problem, but given that it is one of the top issues with "precious", I thought I'd share my experience.

Cheers.

Starter rebuild does not a diff as does bypassing clutch ignition switch.

[Paul Workman]

I had my first experience with the "dreaded no start" last summer at about 31K miles on my '91. With great reluctance, I carefully installed the relay to route 12V "directly" to the starter (with all safety systems still intact). Almost a year to the day later, the problem reoccurred Monday after a 20-mile, stop-and-go drive.

My current view is that rather than engage in any mods when this occurs, one might be best to have the starter rebuilt or replaced with the upgraded coil, new solenoid, etc. A fresh battery is obviously critical, and you'd want to be sure the clutch switch contacts are not compromised (as mine were not).

I know a lot has been written about this problem, but given that it is one of the top issues with "precious", I thought I'd share my experience.

Cheers.

Although there are a couple R&R items, e.g., 90-92 OEM injectors, and maybe even the secondary system (or just delete it!), I don't subscribe to shotgunning a problem i.e., "replacing parts till the problem goes away", IF in fact that was your suggestion (might not be - just my take on it). But, I understand the frustration prompting you post.

Maybe 80-90% of the starter problems appear to be rooted in the internal high-current contacts actuated by the solenoid. And, apparently, the clutch interlock safety switch maybe a problem even more so. Point being, the rest of the parts e.g., the solenoid itself or the starter windings, starter (switch) relay, and even the battery, fall back in the shadows.

So, just IMO, I'd not favor wholesale replacement, in this case. But, I'd be interested to know what exactly IS the problem this time, and go from there.

FWIW,

P.

[tomtom72]

I'm going to jump in here, if I may.:o with my two cents. I've been chasing this issue on my Z-Brother's 90, Lou from CT. This has been a bane since he bought the car back in 05.

I would like to offer up something that I read waaaay back in 04 over at CF in the C4 section. It was an alternative cause for the dreaded no start after ya did all the usual stuff with no good results. Yea, I can't seem to locate the thread, but I didn't look for more than 10 minutes also!:o The info I offer up involves the key switch and a wire that in the too close confines of the column interior space has a tendency to break from it's soldered terminus point. Since there is no room for the wire to actually go anywhere it becomes an "intermittent" non-connection in that it is broken off at the solder joint, but doesn't have the room to actually put physical distance between the broken end and the terminus.

I wish I could be more detailed. I should have printed out the thread. I just made a note on the margin of my FSM in the steering column section of the fact that this break does happen. Sorry:o

:cheers:
Tom

I should say that I was reminded of this wire breaking issue by a shop near Lou that brought this issue up as it seems to plague Camaros and Firebirds from the early 90's & late 80's also. I guess we all use the VATS system and their steering columns are the same or similar to a C4's???? Anyway this was the first thing the mechanic said after the usual suspects were run to ground and found not to be the cause of the no start. Food for thought???

[XfireZ51]

Starter rebuild does not a diff as does bypassing clutch ignition switch.

Sorry, but I meant to write that starter rebuild IS a good idea.

[ZR1North]

Starter rebuild does not a diff as does bypassing clutch ignition switch.

What's the point of bypassing the clutch switch if the starter components are worn such that they don't perform when heat soaked? Mods are not a good substitute for maintenance in my view.

[XfireZ51]

Starter rebuild AND clutch bypass both help w no-start. I have both on the Black Rose and no problem in 95d heat days.

[Kevin]

had this same problem when I bought the car in 99, bypassed the clutch switch, never had an issue again

[ZR1North]

What's the point of bypassing the clutch switch if the starter components are worn such that they don't perform when heat soaked? Mods are not a good substitute for maintenance in my view.

Sorry x-fire; didn't see your follow-up post before my latest post.

Re the ignition switch wire - my only question would be - why does the no crank only manifest itself when the engine bay is hot? After getting the car home last Monday, I lifed the clam shell to help exhaust the heat. After 10 minutes (and what I thought was a "click" under the plenium), it fired up right away - that after waiting 30 minutes in the parking lot (without the hood open) without success. Evidence seems stacked against premature wear of starter components.

[scottfab]

Unfortunately it's not always the column wiring nor is it always the clutch switch, nor battery, nor dirty key contacts.

I wish I could find it but can't right now.
There is a well trod path for the most efficient way to find the cause.
It's four steps. I will try to regurgitate it now.
This could very well be off.

1. Check for security light flashing first. The key contacts on the resistive button can be come slightly contaminated. If it's flashing wipe the key off and wait 4min then try again.

2. Check battery voltage. Even a slightly low battery voltage can and does cause a "no start"

3. Temporarily bypass the clutch switch ( warning: safety issue to permanently bypass this switch. I don't recommend it)

4. This part is from email dating to 2001 but I have similar dating to 97.
It is very instructive for getting out of being stranded with a "no start".
-----------------------------------------
I've been fighting this problem for quite a while. I finally determined that the problem is the sum of a series of voltage drops in the entire starting circuit ( clutch switch, starter enable relay, solenoid connection etc.) The wire to the starter solenoid is a large purple # 12 wire that can be accessed in the computer harness in the engine compartment. This wire can be found by moving the black plastic coil sheath back away from the computer side of the harness. Locate the large purple wire in the harness, then take a voltmeter and pierce the purple wire and measure the voltage relative to the engine block ( or any good ground ) while attempting to start the engine. In my case I was only measuring 7.5 volts to the solenoid ( purple wire ). I don't know the precise voltage required to engage the solenoid, but it is certainly considerably more than 7.5 Volts. I decided that I could validate my findings by using a needle tipped probe that would pierce the purple wire insulation, and with the ignition on, car in neutral, and parking brake set, touch the other end of the probe to the positive battery terminal. Eureka!! I can now start the car anytime, anywhere if the normal starting circuits fail. I suspect that the major losses in the starting circuit are the clutch switch and the starter enable relay located under the dash. I'll be replacing each of these soon, but it is consoling to know that I can start the car now if needed without having to rely on help pushing the car. Hope this helps those of you who have been the victim of the PHANTOM no-start condition.
James Britt
1991 # 2014
---------------------------------------------------------------

[ZR1North]

Thanks Scott. I hadn't seen the latter part of your quote in my previous searches on the Registry.

I understand this is not a problem in the 93-95 model years. If that is true, does anyone have a schematic of the GM-updated start-up circuit?

[Paul Workman]

Starter rebuild AND clutch bypass both help w no-start. I have both on the Black Rose and no problem in 95d heat days.

I agree that from reading these past years the unscientific conclusion is those two items are "thee" issues with starting.

Dom, when you say "starter rebuild", you refer to the armature (w/ new ring) and posts exclusively, or more than that??

P.

[ZR1North]

I agree that from reading these past years the unscientific conclusion is those two items are "thee" issues with starting.

Dom, when you say "starter rebuild", you refer to the armature (w/ new ring) and posts exclusively, or more than that??

P.
Good question. I was speaking with our resident expert on this, and he advised that there is a better filed coil available (presumably that would induce greater electomagnetic field to kick in the solanoid). I would look to replace the brushes and bearings as well while it is apart. Not sure if the armature would need replacing - perhaps not.

This solution resonates with me. I neglected to mention in my initial post that when my engine would not crank, I could hear my mod relay kicking in when I had the clutch depressed and the key on; so, the starter circuitry was working and the relay was delivering 12V (or something very close) directly to the starter. It seems to me that the starter was so heat soaked that with its current design, even a "normal voltage" is not enough to crank it once it wears a little.

[tomtom72]

Is this what you're remembering Scott?

http://zr1netregistry.com/ZR1_troubleshooting.htm#Start

It's from our mothership's Maintenance section, "Troubleshooting" tab.

ZR1North, I just threw the ignition key switch issue out as another possible candidate for the "usual suspect" list because we as a group don't have it listed in our archives as one of the suspects. I'm sorry if I came across as that was the cause. My apologies.

:cheers:
Tom

[rhipsher]

Just replace the starter. They are only about $120 from an auto parts store. You get a new or rebuilt starter with a new or rebuilt solenoid. When it happens only when your engine is hot then its not intermittent. If it happens when it's cold then it's most likely a clutch switch or something else. Mine had no start only when it was hot and I replaced the starter and have never had a problem since. That was three years ago.

[chriskinzel]

I had the same problem last year. It would not stat if the engine was warm at all. Ii bypassed the clutch safety switch, still no start. Installed the new relay, still no start. Ended up replacing the starter and installing additional ground strap from starter to batterie. I have not had a starting problem since. Just my .02
Chris

[scottfab]

Is this what you're remembering Scott?

http://zr1netregistry.com/ZR1_troubleshooting.htm#Start

It's from our mothership's Maintenance section, "Troubleshooting" tab.

ZR1North, I just threw the ignition key switch issue out as another possible candidate for the "usual suspect" list because we as a group don't have it listed in our archives as one of the suspects. I'm sorry if I came across as that was the cause. My apologies.

:cheers:
Tom

That version seems close to what I reposted. I think the one I found predates the Maintenance section though.
When we first read about someone's problem with the car we pretty much all pull up what we had as a solution. A normal response. Sometimes we can save an OP time because what we had as a solution is the most common fault. However, if its not the most common resolution it can lead the OP down a path. On this particular issue someone way before me put together a real good 4 step efficient traversal. I'm not even sure who did it anymore.
I keep it fresh in my head. Ya never know when "no start" will happen next.

[ZR1North]

Is this what you're remembering Scott?

http://zr1netregistry.com/ZR1_troubleshooting.htm#Start

It's from our mothership's Maintenance section, "Troubleshooting" tab.

ZR1North, I just threw the ignition key switch issue out as another possible candidate for the "usual suspect" list because we as a group don't have it listed in our archives as one of the suspects. I'm sorry if I came across as that was the cause. My apologies.

:cheers:
Tom
Appreciate the apology, Tom, but it's not necessary; everyone here knows you're first class!

I think one of the best points coming out of this latest discussion is that there are multiple causes for the no-start. The starter seems to be the likely cause when it won't crank when hot only. However, the other clutch switch, starter relay and ingnition switch are all issues as well. We might be wise to retain a rigrous maintenance regime on all those parts. Add to those VATS maintenance or override and we likely have it covered.

Great discussion as always.

Bob

[tomtom72]

Thanks Bob for not thinking I was trying to be a wise guy!:thumbsup:

:cheers:
Tom