1992 ZR-1 VATS(?) problem

[dorri732]

I have a 92 ZR-1 with 122,000 miles on it. I've owned it for about 6 months. During this time it has periodically refused to start (no crank) and when this happens, the security light is on. I'd say somewhere around 1 in 30 starts this would happen. Irritating, but not a huge deal, as waiting 5 minutes would see it start just fine.

Recently, however it has gotten much worse. Now it's probably 1 in 4 starts that this happens, and it sometimes takes 30 minutes of trying to start every 5 minutes before it will start.

The pellet reader in the ignition key has been previously bypassed by soldering a resistor into the leads. This was done by a previous owner. I looked at it and it seems to be well done, no loose connections, resistance is 7.5 ohms.

I replaced the battery, as I had read that this sometimes helps, and I didn't know how old the battery was.

Also, when this happens, push starting the car doesn't work. I assume that rules out the possibility that it's the clutch switch or the starter itself.

I'm kinda at a loss here and am looking for any suggestions.

Thanks in advance.

[scottfab]

You're on the right track pursuing the resistive pellet direction. As long as you're seeing the security light come on you've got a problem with VATS.
However, this doe not rule out parallel issues. You could still have a clutch switch issue but I'd ignore secondary issues like that for now.

How do you know it's 7.5ohm? That doesn't sound right. I just check the pellet table and there is no such valid value. What are the color rings on the resistor?

[dorri732]

Thanks for the reply. I was going from memory on the resistor value, it was a few weeks ago when I checked it. Looking at the tables now, it's probably 7500 ohms.

I found a vats bypass module on Ebay. It's supposed to be used for installing remote starters. It looks like that, combined with jumpering the starter relay should take care of my problem. I'll silk have the security light, but it won't be able to do anything.

Does this sound right? Anything I'm missing?

[scottfab]

I'll silk have the security light, but it won't be able to do anything.

Does this sound right? Anything I'm missing?

I'm trying to understand what you're asking.
If the Security light still comes on you still have a VATS issue.

[dorri732]

I'd still have a problem with VATS itself, but if I understand correctly, VATS wouldn't be able to do anything at this point.

I believe (and I could be wrong) that the only three things that VATS does is disable the starter (bypassed by jumpering the relay), disable fuel (bypassed by the module mentioned above which sends a 50 hz signal to the ECM telling it to send fuel), and turn on the security light (which I don't really care about).

I was basing this on this post (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showpost.php?p=134196&postcount=13) by Marc H. However, instead of changing the chip to disable the fuel portion, I was planning to use the bypass module, simply because it's available for $15.00.

I guess I'm just looking for some confirmation that I'm not missing something.

Thanks again for your help.

[scottfab]

I'd still have a problem with VATS itself, but if I understand correctly, VATS wouldn't be able to do anything at this point.

I believe (and I could be wrong) that the only three things that VATS does is disable the starter (bypassed by jumpering the relay), disable fuel (bypassed by the module mentioned above which sends a 50 hz signal to the ECM telling it to send fuel), and turn on the security light (which I don't really care about).

I was basing this on this post (http://www.zr1.net/forum/showpost.php?p=134196&postcount=13) by Marc H. However, instead of changing the chip to disable the fuel portion, I was planning to use the bypass module, simply because it's available for $15.00.

I guess I'm just looking for some confirmation that I'm not missing something.

Thanks again for your help.

Wow not sure. You're in uncharted territory for me. Maybe the thread title should read "By-passing VATS" ?
Sounds weird that you'd even be interested in a 7500 ohm pellet if you're doing all the relays and bypasses etc.

[Jim Nolan]

Years ago on my '87 I bypassed the vats with a resistor and had limited success. The reason was I bought the resistor at radio shack. When a friend suggested going to an electrical shop for a more accurate resistor all worked fine.

[dorri732]

Scott: I was only mentioning the pellet to rule that out.

Jim: The value I posted was what I measured with a meter, not what I read from the stripes on the resistor.

After further digging/googling I've come to the conclusion that my BCM/CCM may be failing (or have poor connections, I'll try cleaning the connectors before I go any further). An additional symptom that I didn't mention before because I didn't see how it could be related is that occasionally when I start my wipers first thing in the morning to clear the dew from the windshield, they won't stop. The best I can do is put them on intermittent. They will continue until I turn the car off and restart it, then they work normally. What I didn't realize is that the wipers (as well as VATS) are also controlled by the CCM/BCM.

If I can't repair/replace it, I'll still install the bypass module and jumper the starter relay just to be able to drive it.

Again, thanks to all who have responded.

[scottfab]

After further digging/googling I've come to the conclusion that my BCM/CCM may be failing (or have poor connections, I'll try cleaning the connectors before I go any further). An additional symptom that I didn't mention before because I didn't see how it could be related is that occasionally when I start my wipers first thing in the morning to clear the dew from the windshield, they won't stop. The best I can do is put them on intermittent. They will continue until I turn the car off and restart it, then they work normally. What I didn't realize is that the wipers (as well as VATS) are also controlled by the CCM/BCM.

If I can't repair/replace it, I'll still install the bypass module and jumper the starter relay just to be able to drive it.
.

When I hear stuff like this I always think about grounding issues.
The two big grounding bolts at the back of the engine come to mind.

[dorri732]

Thanks Scott, that's something else I'll certainly check.

[Paul in VA]

Hi:
I went through this same issue (intermittent starting). Drove me nuts for a while. Sometimes tilting/untilting the steering wheel would help. In my case, the car could be push started, just not key started.

I decided to bypass the VATS and found the problem. While removing the Key switch from the steering column, found the very thin wire leading from the key switch assembly (which had, over time) been crushed and the actual conductor exposed. After discovering this, I found this (broken/crushed wire) is a common problem with all VATS equiped cars.
Good Luck!

[dorri732]

Paul, I can't imagine that that's my problem. I believe the wires you are referring to are the ones to the pellet reader in the ignition switch. Those have already been bypassed in my car (with the resister soldered in).

I'm also surprised your car would push start when that happened. I wonder if you had a tune which removed the fuel portion of the VATS from the ECM?

[Paul in VA]

Yes, the wire from the pellet reader in the key switch. I have a 91 so it could be different. Don't know about the fuel bypass but I am running Haibeck tune/chip.

The reason I mentioned the crushed wire is that I did not know if your bypass eliminated that wire from the circuit or just inserted the correct resistance so that the system always worked.