24 hrs LeMans this weekend

[John Boothby]

Number 74 Corvette ZR1, Gavin/Milner/Westbrook qual 3rd behind Ferrari 458 and Aston Martin Vontage V8 by +0.517 Sec.

[LGAFF]

Should be good, wish the field was deeper

[Kevin]

the audi e-tron quatro set pole. first hybrid to ever sit on pole at lemans

[XfireZ51]

I want to see the Delta wing run.

[LGAFF]

Sounds like the Corvette was happy with their time the first day...they have an extra set of tires for the race as they did not use them in qualifying......This should be fun!

[John Boothby]

Yea, the Nissan Delta is the one to watch. I also wish that Corvette will get an LMP car entered one day.

[XfireZ51]

Watching now. Delta wing in paddock.

[mgg]

Hope the delta wing stays in the paddock. Who wants to watch GREEN racing. Who cares! They have already penalized the gas powered cars so that they are not competitive with the diesel entries. Leave the green **** out of racing. Nobody cares that a Nissan "leaf" is the pace car for world challenge. This delta crap is an exercise in creating another class not competing to win. I want to hear fossil fuel burning engines making racing sounds not a delta wing hybrid or an electric toyota.

[Kevin]

I liked the idea of the deltawing racing, the entire point of lemans is to advance the technology of the automobile. Neither the audi etron or the toyota were electric cars

[mgg]

I liked the idea of the deltawing racing, the entire point of lemans is to advance the technology of the automobile. Neither the audi etron or the toyota were electric cars

The entire point! Are you joking!!!!! The point of Lemans is endurance and WINNING it. Production based classes and Prototypes have competed for years as well as lesser classes. The goverening body is doing its best to screw it all up by restricting gas powered prototypes in favor of giving huge advantages to diesel prototypes. This makes for great marketing for those who don't know better who now think diesels are the way to go for the next genreration of performance cars. Yes diesel technology has come a long way but I do not see it in the Porshe 911, Corvette etc. I am fairly ceertain the Toyota was an electric /gas hybryd as it left the pits it did not make a sound. The commentators made the remarks how dangerous it was because no one could hear it. Dorsey Schrader was also mentioning the close calls to it being completely quiet when it left. I would then assume it was a fossil fuel based engine. Like formula one, they had better be careful as to what they allow to creep into racing as a sport. If not well be subject to remote controlled drones that are driven from the pits by geeks who will call themselves drivers. Maybe an exageration but maybe not.

[LGAFF]

I just wish someone knew how to put a damn tire on....

[XfireZ51]

I just wish someone knew how to put a damn tire on....

The guy lost his concentration moving the tire.

[John Boothby]

Both the Audi's and the Toyota's were Hybrids, meaning a combination internal combustion and electric. The Nissan was hybrid also, I believe, with a completely new chassy/body design. The delta wing was forced off the track and into a barrier by one of the Toyotas, not a mechanical failure.

I remember the Andy Granitelli turbine car at Indy. The car completely dominated the other cars until the trans gave out. Then they banned turbines from the race. Indy then turned into a farce as far as I was concerned. Honda only engines? Come on. At least now they have a couple of different engine/chassi combos. But speed is still limited due to safety. So when you limit the speed, do you still call it racing? Or maybe just driver compition. Nascar has turned into a crock also with compition yellow flags and speed limiting rules. Anything to keep it "close". I wouldn't be surprised if they draw straws at the begining of each race to see who will win! It has become the pro wrestling of motor sports.

So, maybe drone cars driven by "geeks" from the pits, with unlimited speeds, will be a reality. I might be able to get into that!

[Kevin]

I just wish someone knew how to put a damn tire on....

he got the tire on....what he forgot was how to secure it

[Kevin]

The entire point! Are you joking!!!!! The point of Lemans is endurance and WINNING it. Production based classes and Prototypes have competed for years as well as lesser classes. The goverening body is doing its best to screw it all up by restricting gas powered prototypes in favor of giving huge advantages to diesel prototypes. This makes for great marketing for those who don't know better who now think diesels are the way to go for the next genreration of performance cars. Yes diesel technology has come a long way but I do not see it in the Porshe 911, Corvette etc. I am fairly ceertain the Toyota was an electric /gas hybryd as it left the pits it did not make a sound. The commentators made the remarks how dangerous it was because no one could hear it. Dorsey Schrader was also mentioning the close calls to it being completely quiet when it left. I would then assume it was a fossil fuel based engine. Like formula one, they had better be careful as to what they allow to creep into racing as a sport. If not well be subject to remote controlled drones that are driven from the pits by geeks who will call themselves drivers. Maybe an exageration but maybe not.

the point of lemans since its inception in the early 1920's was to make the automobile move forward technologically. Research the history of the race before you go on another tirade

[mgg]

Not a tirade, you said the entire point . No that is not the entire point. Just as I said the toyota electric cars. Sure they are hybrids. They still have batteries and use electric generated power. I have followed Lemans for over 50 years and what is most important to most is what wins. This is the ultimate in testing endurance of drivers and cars. Not to turn this into a debate but my personal opnion is that it is great to see technological advances that this race and formula 1 bring to real world performance. Thank God for guys like Jim Hall who completely changed the face of racing with his pioneering of aerodynamics. I am not a fan of hybrid technology in racing. I am fearful that rules will be altered to allow these types of car to be competitive and to then change the scope of the sport. I have raced with SCCA,NASA,COMSCC and instructed for many years. My opinions are mine, I understand but might not agree with others. The one thing about racing that makes it great is that it is not subjective. There are winners and losers. I just hope we protect the purity of the sport and not let technolgy like traction control reduce the skill levels and the participation of the drivers. As for your fondness for the deltawing, that is ok with me. Not my cup of tea.

[XfireZ51]

"...I just hope we protect the purity of the sport". Forgive me but I wonder who the judge of that "purity" really is. I applaud LeMans and look forward to the next iteration of experimental class using hydrogen and electric propulsion. In fact, I applaud them for taking a "free market" approach for next year. No formulas, just run what you brung. But you can only use so much fuel.

[mgg]

Great! Looking forward to the battle between a toyota prius and a honda fit , should make for some interesting racing. Just kidding!. Want I do not want to see is a race based on fuel economy. A race with the most technically advanced traction control. The traction control issue is a big issue for me. After instructing a student with a new ss camaro with traction control the student came away with ( in my opinion) no new skills in driving a car near its limits. The traction control saved us from several issues on track but I do not believe it is a good way to teach car control. As far as fuel economy is concerned I guess we will have to disagree. Let the manufactures who develope commuter cars bear that burden. Seeing "smart cars" on the race track just doesn't float my boat. With the four vehicles you have listed that you own I find it somewhat surprising your interest in green racing. As I have stated in the past though: to each his own.

[John Boothby]

Driving technique has changed alot since I learned to drive. Just an example is the antiskid braking systems now on most all cars. We were tought to "fan" the brakes to keep from sliding. Now we are tought to "apply firm constant pressure". My first experience with this was in 1989. I had just purchased a 1988 GMC 3/4 4x4. I was on the 90 freeway in South Cal in the rain and a VW swerved in front of me. I hit the brakes and the antiskid took over. It was amazing! That pickmeup stayed straight as an arrow! No swapping ends like PU's like to do. I was sold!!

[mgg]

John, you just brought up a great point and it makes me feel a little bit o a hipocrit. Using ABS especially in racing has made threshold braking MUCH LESS DRAMATIC. It is great on the street and I am sure most of us have experienced the advantage of having abs. On the track, I have been spoiled by just standing on the brakes at the last second especially when trying to outbrake and gain a position and I never worry about lock up. I did not think about that and it is a great point. Don't get me wrong, I love all of this technology and I understand what traction control can in preventing mishaps on the street but I just don't want to see it in racing and take the driver out of the equation. It is really interesting to see how driving techniques have changed with advances in tires brakes etc. Remeber how guys like Stirling Moss would just throw a sports car in the corner with those skinny little tires and just drift through the corner to carry momentum. Today if yu do that you are overdriving the car and scrubbing speed , but it sure looks cool. Heck, the sport of drifting was created. I hope they don't think they invented it. Anyway good point you bring up and fun discussion.

[John Boothby]

Back in the day a driver really had to have a feel for his car. Aerodynamics have completely changed the way race cars are driven. Like you said, today if you drift a little you scrub off speed. Back in the day that was the way around the track! You drove the car into the corner and fanned the throttle to keep the car under control. In the corner you controlled the car with the throttle. This is still the practice in short track (Miget and World of Outlaws) class of racing. And dirt track!

I love racing when the driver has the car on the edge. I mean, using every ounce of the cars capability. It applies today as well as in the past.

[Aurora40]

"...I just hope we protect the purity of the sport". Forgive me but I wonder who the judge of that "purity" really is. I applaud LeMans and look forward to the next iteration of experimental class using hydrogen and electric propulsion. In fact, I applaud them for taking a "free market" approach for next year. No formulas, just run what you brung. But you can only use so much fuel.

In terms of who the judge is, I think the answer is obvious: spectators. If a bunch of Prius drivers, the Lorax, etc, start tuning in to watch LeMans, ALMS races, Or Euro LeMans Series, then it will be a great idea. I think traditional race fans though don't tend to care about contrived competition that artificially favors "new" technologies like diesels or hybrids.

It is really odd that you think a free market is one in which a resource is artificially constrained.

Fuel is as unlimited as oxygen, rubber, people, or any other resource. How is it "run what you brung" if there is an artifical cap on how you can use what you brung?

High fuel use means more pit stops, more fuel means more weight and more tire wear, which means more pit stops. This reality will reward real meaningful innovations that solve real problems. You don't need artificial constraints for technology to progress.

Anyway, this is a matter of opinion. Time will tell which opinion racing fans share, though the ALMS has been struggling for a few years now. "Green" challenges and the like have not helped save them. They are mostly only broadcast online, and the few televised races are generally not even broadcast the same day as the event. Maybe the solution is more hybrids....

[Aurora40]

the point of lemans since its inception in the early 1920's was to make the automobile move forward technologically. Research the history of the race before you go on another tirade

What??

The point of it is competition. A byproduct is certainly technological improvements. That's like saying Wimbledon exists to improve the state of sneaker technology.

If it turned out that more automotive progress was made by having all those people spend 24 hours in a laboratory, would they replace the race with the "24 Heures du Lab". Of course not, because the race is the main point...

[XfireZ51]

Bob,

But pushing the edges of the envelope is intrinsic in competition. Not sure you can separate the two. It's a given. LeMans is the ultimate laboratory. The ROI is HUGE, both in terms of testing and marketing.

[John Boothby]

I believe if you have something better than the next guy, bring'er on! But don't put constraints on the competition just to allow new technology to be competitive.

[XfireZ51]

I believe if you have something better than the next guy, bring'er on! But don't put constraints on the competition just to allow new technology to be competitive.

John,

I agree with you when it comes to things such as added ballast, restrictor plates etc. In my opinion this impedes competition for the sake of giving the fans a closer race. I don't watch NASCAR for that reason. I don't like formulas that way. However, I did enjoy watching the IROC series when the cars were "identical" and the objective was to see who was the best driver. But that was the stated goal of the series. I view the "constraints" LeMans is implementing as a way of making the existing technologies better. Stretching them as far as they can go. Ultimately, there is an intrinsic limit. The ultimate constraints are the laws of physics. If another technology can "leapfrog" those limitations then more power to it(no pun intended). Happens all the time in business. Necessity is the mother of invention.

Bob,

If the spectators are the ultimate judge of what the "purity" of the sport is, then its a pretty relative term. And we'll just have to wait and see what the spectators say when they vote with their dollars.

[mgg]

Reading these post makes me think of a time and place in racing that I truly find the pinnacle of motorsport in my mind. Can-am really was racing at its purist. Technical advances, brutal power, very few rules. It created the most advanced and wild race cars the world had ever seen. 600 cubic inch all aluminum chevy v-8s. Porsche twin turbo v-8 making 1100hp. Aerodynamics as cool and as innovative as anyone could imagine. What a great series and if any of you are interested the DVD history of the Can-am is a must buy. I miss those days. I would like to add that those can-am cars in their day were signifcantly faster than the formula one cars on the same tracks. I loved it.

[XfireZ51]

Reading these post makes me think of a time and place in racing that I truly find the pinnacle of motorsport in my mind. Can-am really was racing at its purist. Technical advances, brutal power, very few rules. It created the most advanced and wild race cars the world had ever seen. 600 cubic inch all aluminum chevy v-8s. Porsche twin turbo v-8 making 1100hp. Aerodynamics as cool and as innovative as anyone could imagine. What a great series and if any of you are interested the DVD history of the Can-am is a must buy. I miss those days. I would like to add that those can-am cars in their day were signifcantly faster than the formula one cars on the same tracks. I loved it.

I loved the Can Am and the Trans Am series of that era.

[Aurora40]

I view the "constraints" LeMans is implementing as a way of making the existing technologies better. Stretching them as far as they can go. Ultimately, there is an intrinsic limit. The ultimate constraints are the laws of physics. If another technology can "leapfrog" those limitations then more power to it(no pun intended).

I view it as greenwashing. Diesel didn't get better due to LeMans and the ALMS, unless you count improving perception as a stride. I do not consider it progress, as it is artificial.

The initial constraints on diesels were almost 50% larger fuel tanks, almost 100% more boost pressure, and larger displacment vs a gas powered prototype. This is not improving technology, it is pretending that a technology is better than it is. Perception of diesels took a huge leap, because it was represented as if diesels are now the formula of choice for performance and economy. But the reality of diesels had not actually changed.

If they had more even rules, or no rules at all, no one would have run a diesel car. Because it isn't competitive. When and if it becomes competitive, it will be a real accomplishment. Possibly that day would never come if it's not a good technology. But if it did come, it would be because of a genuine advantage.

That formula of heavily tilting the playing field is not how you push progress, it is how you displace or redirect it with rules advantages. That is basically what they are doing with hybrids and electrics now going forward.

I tend to think if you want a series that favors greenie stuff, start one. LeMans didn't start judging your drifting around corners when that became popular, rather new series popped up to support it. I doubt there is enough interest to support a new "green" series of electric cars racing against diesel cars racing against hemp powered cars, etc.

So instead they have used the popularity of this race and follower series, and pushed the green agenda onto it. As you said, time will tell if this kills it or it is a hit.

I think time has already shown that the green focus is not a winner for the ALMS. And it sounds like it's not a winner for some in this thread, and is for others.

[XfireZ51]

I can't see a more efficient way of improving an automotive technology than subjecting it to the crucible of racing. IC motors have had 100 years
of honing this way. To judge disruptive technologies like electric or fuel cell in a few short years is not comparing apples to apples. Battery and power control systems are finally reaching a level that can render these technologies as viable
A body in motion wants to stay in motion. An outside force needs to be exerted in order to change its momentum. Time will tell if these other technologies have a potential of challenging the status quo. But they need to be given an opportunity and encouragement. I applaud LeMans for basically saying "Let's find out". Frankly it will also push the limits of IC technology. Everybody wins.

[Jagdpanzer]

A few things consider about the 24 Hours Le Mans and diesels. By any measure this event is a huge production and, as we all know, huge productions need huge revenue in order to survive. Those marketing 24 hrs Le Mans primarily cater to the European manufactures, service companies, enthusiasts and spectators attending (who are mostly locals) because that's where the vast majority of the money comes from. For the past couple decades European governments, either individually or collectively under the EU, have mandated more efficient automobiles standards in an effort to reduce energy consumption and production of greenhouse gases. The EU Governments support this policy by more favorable taxation at the diesel pump and lower taxes on higher efficient cars. In reaction the European automobile industry has turned to wider use of diesel engine technology due to its better cycle efficiency (roughly 25%) compared comparable gasoline engines. Traditional diesel performance and emission issues have been address by advancements in engine design and exhaust after treatment. The result today over 50% of the new cars sold in Europe are diesels, covering the full range of basic economy cars up through high end luxury sedans from all major manufactures including VW, BMW, Opal Mercedes, Audi, Renault, Fiat as well as the European units of Ford and GM to name a few. So with this level of interest and investment naturally the big car makers want to sell on Monday what they race on Sunday. In most types of amateur and professional racing the diesel engine is not very well suited for technical and economic reasons. For sure I don't see F1 going to oil burners anytime soon. However, 24 hrs Le Mans, with its long track lay out and overall distance with empathizes on technology, reliability, durability and efficiency, this is a contest where the diesel can demonstrate its advantages. From what I can see the race organizers tailor the rules to keep the big companies interested in participating so they can strut their technologic prowess and for the marketing value, placate the government wonks on safety concerns, curb the greeny types environmental hysteria while putting on a great race for the fans around the world to enjoy.

[XfireZ51]

Phil,

Not much to argue w you on.