Why no Grand National?

[Funracer]

Driving home last week with my 21 year old son in the car.

A few blocks from the house we passed a pristine looking GN
with a "For Sale" sign on it. My son said "What is a Grand National?"
We pulled in the driveway.

Guy came out and said it was an 87. It is probably the nicest
one I have ever seen. I've always thought they are badazz looking.

I told him that I had test driven an '87 in 1993 before buying the
'91 ZR1. We oohed and aahed over it for a bit. He did not offer
a ride and I did not ask since I was not really a buyer. I wished
him good luck with the sale and we left.

On the way home my son said "If you liked the Grand National
so much, why didn't you buy that instead?".

I told him that I WAS going to buy a GN in '93. But then I drove a ZR1. NOTHING drives like the Z! After 20 years it still puts a smile on my
face every time the secondaries open.

I have never regretted my decision. But I still think those
all black GN's look badazz!

Cheers on Memorial weekend:salute:

[Paul Workman]

Driving home last week with my 21 year old son in the car.

A few blocks from the house we passed a pristine looking GN
with a "For Sale" sign on it. My son said "What is a Grand National?"
We pulled in the driveway.

Guy came out and said it was an 87. It is probably the nicest
one I have ever seen. I've always thought they are badazz looking.

I told him that I had test driven an '87 in 1993 before buying the
'91 ZR1. We oohed and aahed over it for a bit. He did not offer
a ride and I did not ask since I was not really a buyer. I wished
him good luck with the sale and we left.

On the way home my son said "If you liked the Grand National
so much, why didn't you buy that instead?".

I told him that I WAS going to buy a GN in '93. But then I drove a ZR1. NOTHING drives like the Z! After 20 years it still puts a smile on my
face every time the secondaries open.

I have never regretted my decision. But I still think those
all black GN's look badazz!

Cheers on Memorial weekend:salute:

I understand both the lust for another car AND the way the Z changes all of that.

Welcome to the forum!

P.

[JThomas]

The Grand National is another awesome car! I'm usually not a big fan of turbos and such, but that car has a great look to it and is fast. I think in 1987, it may have actually been faster than the Corvette, however GM would not admit to that.

My sister and her husband have a '87 GN with 40,000 miles. I don't think it has been on the road in the last 6-8 years, I'm just waiting for the moment they decide to sell it. :cheers:

[Demps]

Still have mine. Original owner. Just turned 50,000 miles. Different but great nonetheless.
Ted

[WB9MCW]

Welcome Funracer to the Zoo

My favorite GN

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p110/HAMMERHATE/buick-gnx-87.jpg

For the final year, 1987, Buick introduced the GNX at $29,900. Produced by McLaren Performance Technologies/ASC, Buick underrated the GNX at 276 hp (206 kW) and a very substantial 360 lb·ft (488 N·m) of torque.[5] This was created to be the "Grand National to end all Grand Nationals." Changes made included a special Garrett T-3 turbocharger with a ceramic-impeller blowing through a more efficient and significantly larger capacity intercooler with a "CERMATEL (Ceramic/Aluminum) coated" pipe connecting the intercooler to the engine. A GNX specific EEPROM, low-restriction exhaust with dual mufflers, reprogrammed Turbo Hydramatic 200-4R transmission with a custom torque converter and transmission cooler, and unique differential cover/panhard bar included more of the performance modifications. Exterior styling changes include vents located on each front fender, 16 inch black mesh style wheels with VR-speed rated tires, and deletion of the hood and fender emblems. The interior changes of the GNX included a serial number on the dash plaque and a revised instrument cluster providing analog Stewart-Warner gauges, including an analog turbo boost gauge. Performance was measured with a quarter mile time of 13.5 seconds at a paltry 102 mph (164 km/h) and a 0-60 mph (97 km/h) time of 4.7 seconds.[6] GNX #001 is the 1986 prototype currently owned by Buick and sometimes makes appearances at car shows around the US. The GNX had a ladder bar that ran from the mid-section of the car to the rear axle, so as to increase traction. This is also the reason why a GNX will actually lift the rear end up when the car is about to launch heavily.

The stealthy appearance of the all-black GNX and Grand National, coupled with the fact that the Grand National was initially released during the height of Star Wars fever, earned it the title "Darth Vader's Car". Car and Driver covered the GNX model's introduction with the headline "Lord Vader, your car is ready".

From> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Regal
------------------

547 fully optioned (though no t-tops or sunroofs) Grand Nationals were handed over to ASC/McLaren for a bit of polishing.

Remarkably, ASC/McLaren didn't alter a single bolt on the engine. But everything else was tweaked to within an inch of its life. Out went the factory turbo and in came a fast-spooling, ceramic-impellered Garrett turbocharger. The intercooler was beefed up and cold air was fed from it to the turbo via a ceramic-coated pipe. A Performance chip was added. The transmission was reprogrammed (though, still mechanically stout enough to handle the extra twist), a special torque-converter was added and a transmission-fluid cooler was bolted in place. A custom, low-restriction exhaust was fitted. The GNX was the only Regal ever offered with 16" wheels. These were machined from a lightweight alloy and were wider in the back than the front (P255/50VR16 vs. P245/50VR16). Wider arches, functional heat-sapping fender vents, a strengthened aluminum pumpkin and gallon after gallon of black paint were all part of the kit.

Results? The official numbers were blood-pumping. 276 hp, 360 lb-ft of torque, zero-to-60 in 5.7 seconds and the 1/4 mile in just over 14. Let's put this in perspective. The Corvette in 1987 was capable of hitting 60 mph in 5.9 seconds and turning a 14.5-second quarter mile. A Porsche 928 S4 of the same vintage was good for 5.5 seconds and 13.9. Those numbers are basically identical to a 1987 911 Club Sport's. Ferrari's wild-looking 12-cylinder boxer-engined Testarossa, a real live supercar, managed 60 mph in 5.3 seconds and the quarter mile in 13.6. Only the Lamborghini Countach LP500 QV was significantly faster, hitting 60 mph in 5.2 and breaking the 13 second barrier with a time of 12.9. Still, as the GNX only cost $29,900 (the GNX package was jaw-dropping $10,995 option over the Grand National's $19,000-ish sticker). The Countach? How about $100,000, more than three times as much.

Remarkably, ASC/McLaren didn't alter a single bolt on the engine. But everything else was tweaked to within an inch of its life. Out went the factory turbo and in came a fast-spooling, ceramic-impellered Garrett turbocharger. The intercooler was beefed up and cold air was fed from it to the turbo via a ceramic-coated pipe. A Performance chip was added. The transmission was reprogrammed (though, still mechanically stout enough to handle the extra twist), a special torque-converter was added and a transmission-fluid cooler was bolted in place. A custom, low-restriction exhaust was fitted. The GNX was the only Regal ever offered with 16" wheels. These were machined from a lightweight alloy and were wider in the back than the front (P255/50VR16 vs. P245/50VR16). Wider arches, functional heat-sapping fender vents, a strengthened aluminum pumpkin and gallon after gallon of black paint were all part of the kit.

Results? The official numbers were blood-pumping. 276 hp, 360 lb-ft of torque, zero-to-60 in 5.7 seconds and the 1/4 mile in just over 14. Let's put this in perspective. The Corvette in 1987 was capable of hitting 60 mph in 5.9 seconds and turning a 14.5-second quarter mile. A Porsche 928 S4 of the same vintage was good for 5.5 seconds and 13.9. Those numbers are basically identical to a 1987 911 Club Sport's. Ferrari's wild-looking 12-cylinder boxer-engined Testarossa, a real live supercar, managed 60 mph in 5.3 seconds and the quarter mile in 13.6. Only the Lamborghini Countach LP500 QV was significantly faster, hitting 60 mph in 5.2 and breaking the 13 second barrier with a time of 12.9. Still, as the GNX only cost $29,900 (the GNX package was jaw-dropping $10,995 option over the Grand National's $19,000-ish sticker). The Countach? How about $100,000, more than three times as much.

Only thing was, the GNX's factory numbers were BS. GM being GM, it didn't want any of its vehicles outperforming the Corvette. So Buick was forced to fib. When the press cars were handed out, journos discovered actual power was closer to 300 horses and an unbelievable 400 lbs. ft of torque. The ASC/McLaren boys also went to work on the chassis, essentially building a dragster for the street. They ditched the rear control arms in favor of a ladder bar/panhard rod setup. The back of the ladder bar attaches to the passenger side of the differential (to prevent left-side up, right-side down twisting during brake stands) and the front attaches to a frame crossmember. For further stability they added a stamped diagonal brace behind the rear seat. All this tuning added up to a shocking zero-to-60 mph time of 4.5 seconds and quarter-mile best of 13.26 at 104 mph. Essentially, those were Countach numbers from a Buick sedan (although the Regal had just two doors, its structure and interior volume made it a sedan, technically – this is still being argued). These numbers are competitive even today; a Shelby's GT500 takes 4.5 to hit 60 mph and covers the 1/4 mile in 12.9.

The GNX also looked the part. All 547 dash-plaque numbered examples were black-on-black with all the badges (save one in the grill) deleted. Few cars have ever looked more bad-***. Fewer still ever tried. The GNX is just evil, especially from the rear. That makes sense, considering the rear is the vantage point from which you'll most likely observe a GNX. (Look at those taillights!) Darth Vader indeed. Sadly, 1988 was the year Buick decided to "damage" itself and pursue the AARP/golfer set. But no matter how screwed up the Tiger Woods brand is today, none of that sadness can detract from the infamous glory of the GNX. My dream? To one day take a GNX onto a golf course and do some serious donuts. Which is of course, to paraphrase George Carlin, the kind of dream that kept me out of the really good schools. So be it. A final note: we're well aware that the GNX can't turn left or right. It was never supposed to.

From> http://jalopnik.com/274485/buick-gnx

[VetteMed]

Great info. Fun cars, the G-body in general, being the last full-frame rear-drive coupes built by GM. I used to own an 87 Regal, never fortunate enough to own a GN or GNX though... I had plans to make a clone, but then got bitten by the f-body bug in the mid-90s. Still want an 87-88 442 for my collection. Not fast (180hp 307 "H.O."), but they just look great to me!

http://www.scottlewisonline.com/images/87_442_black_1.jpg

[RICKYRJ1]

I had picked up a 87 GN several years ago. I did some upgrade engine mods as well as added 18" wheels. I detail the sh*t out of it and she was mint. I had to sell it several months later because the wife found out it didn't have shoulder seatbelts in the rear for the kids. The kids loved to watch the boost gage. I miss that car and regret getting rid of her :cry:

[Bob Eyres]

The GN was the only "muscle car" the wife ever encouraged me to buy. Back in 94' I bought the ZR-1 instead. No regrets.
So, would you have been ahead now, money wise, if you'd bought the GN instead? You must have dropped $35-40K for the Z, back in the day.

[cvette98pacecar]

The GN was the only "muscle car" the wife ever encouraged me to buy. Back in 94' I bought the ZR-1 instead. No regrets.
So, would you have been ahead now, money wise, if you'd bought the GN instead? You must have dropped $35-40K for the Z, back in the day.


The GN fully opted out was less than 18K average price today for a nice GN 12 to 15K.
GNX sold for 33K fully opted, Today good luck finding one for less than 75K.

1990 Z sold for 70K with a premium dealer add on 20k. Today a nice low mileage 90 might get you 25K.

Even if you bought your Z 2 or 3 years old the GN held its value to original cost much better than the Z.

I owned a TT 281 (4.1L) Cu In stage 2 rocket block, I regret trading that car for an Escalade every time I see a GN.
Not to say I dont enjoy my Z's They are just two different Vehicle.

If you want to go fast in a straight line for a quarter of a mile there is no beating a GN.

Vettemed, Here is the Olds that I had before the GN. Loved the Lightning Rods. I am going to see if I have any photos of My GN or Hurst.

http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa468/rdemarco06/1983_Hurst_Olds.jpg

[VetteMed]

Robert, I love the Hurst Olds too! Please feel free to post more pics if you have 'em.

Unfortunately, with the exception of the GN, the G-body cars didn't have the HP to back up their looks. That can be corrected, of course, with a few grand in mod money :)

[cvette98pacecar]

Robert, I love the Hurst Olds too! Please feel free to post more pics if you have 'em.

Unfortunately, with the exception of the GN, the G-body cars didn't have the HP to back up their looks. That can be corrected, of course, with a few grand in mod money :)

I had a 403 in mine. My ex blew the 307 HO, and there was no way I was getting spanked by an escort GT ever again.

[Funracer]

The GN was the only "muscle car" the wife ever encouraged me to buy. Back in 94' I bought the ZR-1 instead. No regrets.
So, would you have been ahead now, money wise, if you'd bought the GN instead? You must have dropped $35-40K for the Z, back in the day.

Good point. Surprisingly the Z has turned out to be almost the worst
car I could have chosen from an investment only standpoint. To this day
I still don't understand why a Grand Sport vette is worth more than my
91 Z.

I saw a 1974 MGB (restored) go for $18K at an auction recently.
Does that make any sense? There were something like 150,000 MGB's
imported into the USA from 1963 to 1980 (I owned a '69 for many years).
When I paid $31K for the Z in 1993, nice MGB's could be had for 1/10th of that. There were only about 7000 ZR1's made. When I go to local car
shows I almost never see another Z, even if it is a local Corvettes only show.

So we own an iconic American brand (Corvette) with spectacular
performance (until then unmatched in Vette history, generally
speaking) that are rare to very rare (less than 500/year from 1992-1995
if I remember right). And yet we get no respect in the resale market.

I believe the GN's back in '93 were going for around $7-8K. I could have
bought several for what I paid for the Z and been ahead that way
I guess. Or 10 MGB's. Ferrari Dino's were the same price as a Z back then and now are over $250K. Oh well. We may have our day yet:)

[Bob Eyres]

Still, you're in great shape if you paid $31K for a 91' Z in 93' (killer deal for a decent car).
19 years of fun for maybe $10K in depreciation, not bad.:-D

[BigJohn]

Good point. Surprisingly the Z has turned out to be almost the worst
car I could have chosen from an investment only standpoint. To this day
I still don't understand why a Grand Sport vette is worth more than my
91 Z.

I saw a 1974 MGB (restored) go for $18K at an auction recently.
Does that make any sense? There were something like 150,000 MGB's
imported into the USA from 1963 to 1980 (I owned a '69 for many years).
When I paid $31K for the Z in 1993, nice MGB's could be had for 1/10th of that. There were only about 7000 ZR1's made. When I go to local car
shows I almost never see another Z, even if it is a local Corvettes only show.

So we own an iconic American brand (Corvette) with spectacular
performance (until then unmatched in Vette history, generally
speaking) that are rare to very rare (less than 500/year from 1992-1995
if I remember right). And yet we get no respect in the resale market.

I believe the GN's back in '93 were going for around $7-8K. I could have
bought several for what I paid for the Z and been ahead that way
I guess. Or 10 MGB's. Ferrari Dino's were the same price as a Z back then and now are over $250K. Oh well. We may have our day yet:)

In another forty years maybe; your ZR-1 should increase in value!
Right now they are still to new to be very collectable.
:cry:

[Funracer]

I thought about selling the Z a few years back. But I have owned
it for so long now its part of the family. My kids have all grown up
riding in it. I think it will be my "Retired Guys Car Show Car" in a few
more years.


In another forty years maybe; your ZR-1 should increase in value!



Hope it does not take that long! I have watched the value of these cars
decrease for so long now I would be surprised (pleasantly) if it were ever worth what I paid for it. Anyone buying today would be far ahead in terms of depreciation/insurance/maintenance/storage/oportunity costs born by original or long time owners. At the end of the day it is a cool car no matter what its worth on paper.=D>

[BigJohn]

I thought about selling the Z a few years back. But I have owned
it for so long now its part of the family. My kids have all grown up
riding in it. I think it will be my "Retired Guys Car Show Car" in a few
more years.



Hope it does not take that long! I have watched the value of these cars
decrease for so long now I would be surprised (pleasantly) if it were ever worth what I paid for it. Anyone buying today would be far ahead in terms of depreciation/insurance/maintenance/storage/oportunity costs born by original or long time owners. At the end of the day it is a cool car no matter what its worth on paper.=D>

I hope it doesn't take that long too!
But your example of a 1974 MGB; is thirty eight years old.
It takes time, some times alot of time!
I have $30,000.00 in my 1938 Chevy Master Coupe and it's value is about $20,000.00! (It is seventy four years old!)

[White Bullet]

In my younger days I was into Firebirds. I like the looks however the power plants at the time were disappointing. When the Grand Nationals came out I really liked the power and looks of the car. But given my youth and my earnings it was not to be. Then in 1989 Pontiac placed the Grand National motor in an anniversary Trans Am. Well there you go a Firebird with power to spare. But since it was a limited run car the prices were well beyond my means. Either way I think the power plant made both cars special.

[Funracer]

Either way I think the power plant made both cars special


I agree. But what could be more special than a Lotus designed
Mercruiser cast aluminum block 16 fuel injector DOHC LT5? The GN
has an awesome look to it. But what engine looks better than an LT5? Like something out of Alien (movie).

There were over 30,000 GN's produced from 1984-87 (I Googled it).
Compare that to approx 7000 ZR1's from '90-'95. GN's values are
up 100% over the last 20 yrs ($7K to $15K roughly) and Z's are flat
to down.

Wishful thinking, but I think we go up from here. ;)

[cvette98pacecar]

In my younger days I was into Firebirds. I like the looks however the power plants at the time were disappointing. When the Grand Nationals came out I really liked the power and looks of the car. But given my youth and my earnings it was not to be. Then in 1989 Pontiac placed the Grand National motor in an anniversary Trans Am. Well there you go a Firebird with power to spare. But since it was a limited run car the prices were well beyond my means. Either way I think the power plant made both cars special.

The 89 Turbo Trans Am was an entirely different monster, 4.3L not 3.8 that the GN had, GN heads were too wide to fit in the F-body Chassis so GM out of their infinite wisdom installed 3.8L FWD heads. Four head bolts, once you tried to do anything to raise the boost say goodbye to the head gasket. Did anyone ever get that resolved?
Dont get me wrong I liked them very much back in the day.

[VetteMed]

The 89 Turbo Trans Am was an entirely different monster, 4.3L not 3.8 that the GN had, GN heads were too wide to fit in the F-body Chassis so GM out of their infinite wisdom installed 3.8L FWD heads. Four head bolts, once you tried to do anything to raise the boost say goodbye to the head gasket. Did anyone ever get that resolved?
Dont get me wrong I liked them very much back in the day.

Wrong.

The 4.3 was a supercharged motor in the Syclone and Typhoon.

The TTA was still a 3.8 even with the different heads.

[cvette98pacecar]

Wrong.

The 4.3 was a supercharged motor in the Syclone and Typhoon.

The TTA was still a 3.8 even with the different heads.

I have no clue why I put 4.3L. the second part of the statement reads 3.8L heads from a FWD vehicle.
Was never big on the Truck or the Small SUV.
I need to stop working 14 hours a day.

[VetteMed]

The Sy/Ty have a pretty big following, they seem to still command good prices. Yet another part of the ZR-1 pricing enigma.

[cvette98pacecar]

The Sy/Ty have a pretty big following, they seem to still command good prices. Yet another part of the ZR-1 pricing enigma.

A nice one will cost you 10k all day long.

[VetteMed]

And, on the subject of typing before the brain catches up, I am not sure why I typed "supercharged", since I know that the 4.3 was a turbo too.