Close to an end? Obama an illegal.

[efnfast]

Maybe we can finally get our country back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrQp6qSgX_I&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrQp6qSgX_I&feature=youtu.be)

More evidence the birth cert. is a forgery.


:salute:

[ZONER 95]

Thats very interesting.....considering all the technology available at the Presidents disposal I can see where this could easily be done....seems like the best evidence yet...:flag: but not reported by the lame stream media....just this local affiliate.....hmmmmmm

[carter200]

More evidence the birth cert. is a forgery.

Things that make you go hmmmmmmm ;)

[USAFPILOT]

when does the impeachment process start? Will Biden be running for re-election?

[XfireZ51]

Early April Fool's joke.

[SteelBlueZR1]

Wow! This is really compelling story (not?!). If a volunteer investigator - Mike Zullo hired by a rogue Sherriff Arpaio, who himself is under investigation by a Federal Grand Jury for abuse of power, tells a local Fox News affiliate their investigation - prompted by the Tea Party - reveals Obama faked his Birth Certificate... It must be true?
Come on people, use your common sense here and understand the source of allegations is too suspect to claim - "Confirmed Obamas Birth Cert is a Fake.". Our Country's greatness will whither away, unless we seek truths vs. opinions based on preconceived notions - garbage in = garbage out.
Everyone I've met thru ZR1 Net seems to be caring, compassionate and tolerant, so why fill our board with politically motivated banter, when we are really here to share our passion for ZR1's?
I no longer read Corvette Forum, as it is full of political rhetoric and hate speech. I prefer to leave politics to political blogs and ZR1's to the ZR1 forum.

[efnfast]

I considered this may not be the place to post that before I did. Just seems like a lot of people are getting really worried, I believe with good reason.

[GOLDCYLON]

This is in Off topic which is Ok. In short the White House has some answering to do. Everyone knows you cant move objects in a scanned document. So????

[XfireZ51]

SB,

Off Topic is the place to post this type of stuff. I don't mind an educated counter point and discussion. That is how our democracy works best. However, I wouldn't put the birther issue and Sheriff Arpiao in a category anywhere near resembling intelligent discourse. If you watched the total of the newscast in this thread, you'll note that the ONLY response the reporter got was from a Republican Congressman who affirmed his position that the President IS an American citizen born in Hawaii. I notice nobody of any consequence has taken up Sheriff Joe's earth shattering announcement.

[scottfab]

(some snipped here) - prompted by the Tea Party - reveals Obama faked his Birth Certificate... It must be true?
Come on people, use your common sense here and understand the source of allegations is too suspect to claim - "Confirmed Obamas Birth Cert is a Fake.". Our Country's greatness will whither away, unless we seek truths vs. opinions based on preconceived notions - garbage in = garbage out.
Everyone I've met thru ZR1 Net seems to be caring, compassionate and tolerant, so why fill our board with politically motivated banter, when we are really here to share our passion for ZR1's?
I no longer read Corvette Forum, as it is full of political rhetoric and hate speech. I prefer to leave politics to political blogs and ZR1's to the ZR1 forum.

Well said. So very well said. If folks just stop for a moment and think clearly they can see the hate behind much anti Obama stuff. Personally I don't trust ANYTHING I hear on Fox "News". A resent special on the owner of Fox (Murdock) told how they hire "opinionists" instead of reporters to find the news. The special was on the Bloomberg channel.

[efnfast]

I'm not convinced the media isn't controled, or influenced, or, you pick the word, by big brother. I'll blame that on Mr.Obama also. The bro has got to go. We'll be living in a socialist society shortly. Lets force health care on people. Since when is it our governments place to tell us what to buy. No thank you. If you can't afford it, you can't have it. If you didn't work for it or earn it, why should I have to give it to you? I work hard to support me and my family.

[scottfab]

snipped.... If you can't afford it, you can't have it. If you didn't work for it or earn it, why should I have to give it to you? I work hard to support me and my family.

Yah, that's the American way. You're poor so you get to die. I got mine so you can suffer cause I'm cummfy. That's the kind of thinking that wants to charge for breathing air.
Fact is government has the charge to enforce and pass laws that are for the greater good. "Socialist state"?
Right, if that's the case then Eisenhower was a socialist for making us pay for the Interstate system.

Don't follow Russ Limberger too closely. You'll start believing is popping pills too. Don't follow the leader without thinking.

The "bro" as you say has done an outstanding job. The only thing he did wrong was to waste two years trying to reason with old stuck in the mud non-thinking law makers at the beginning. Shame on him for trying to reason with them.:flag:

[XfireZ51]

I'm not convinced the media isn't controled, or influenced, or, you pick the word, by big brother. I'll blame that on Mr.Obama also. The bro has got to go. We'll be living in a socialist society shortly. Lets force health care on people. Since when is it our governments place to tell us what to buy. No thank you. If you can't afford it, you can't have it. If you didn't work for it or earn it, why should I have to give it to you? I work hard to support me and my family.

efn,

E pluribus unum. From many, one. The greatness of our country is its community. The brotherhood of man.
You are being played. Sorry, We are being played.

[John Boothby]

The way I see the Affordable Health Care Act, is that the way things are now the hospitals have to provide care to anyone that walks through their doors whether they can pay or not. Under the Affordable Health Care Act, everyone must have basic insurance or pay a fine/tax that goes to help those that cannot afford insurance, to buy it. The govrnment does not tell or force you to buy from any certain company. So, would you rather pay higher health care fees for those that do not/cannot pay, or would you like lower health care fees and everyone have insurance? The idea is that everyone will be insured and the cost will go down. By the way, THIS WAS A REPUBLICAN idea a few years ago!! Also, insurance companies will not be allowed to rape the public anymore like they have been doing for years!!

Regarding our president. I have been aware of every election since Ike, and I cannot recall the amount of hatred for a president (except Tricky Dick) that has been thrown at Obama! Like him or not, he is OUR PRESIDENT! Give him the respect the office is due and if you don't like him, VOTE. What really scares the hell out of me is that any one of the Republican candidates could actually become president!! And yes, I have voted Republican before.:proud:

[efnfast]

Politics are great, can we get into religion next?
I don't mind helping a friend, neighbor, or bro out when they are down and out. I don't like supporting those that will not help themselves or even try to help themselves.
Our government definately has a role, like building our highway system and protecting our freedoms (thank you to those that do). I just think they are way overstepping their bounds. And yes, insurance companies have been raping us fr a long time. Too many people think insurance money and government money is free money. Duh, where do you think they get the money from? And I'm sure a lot will be lost in this discusion through the keyboard.
I do support the office of the President, as long as I think that person is doing what is in the best interest of this country.
Sorry, I'm babbling.

[scottfab]

Politics are great, can we get into religion next?
I don't mind helping a friend, neighbor, or bro out when they are down and out. I don't like supporting those that will not help themselves or even try to help themselves.
Our government definately has a role, like building our highway system and protecting our freedoms (thank you to those that do). I just think they are way overstepping their bounds. And yes, insurance companies have been raping us fr a long time. Too many people think insurance money and government money is free money. Duh, where do you think they get the money from? And I'm sure a lot will be lost in this discusion through the keyboard.
I do support the office of the President, as long as I think that person is doing what is in the best interest of this country.
Sorry, I'm babbling.

You're on to the solution (or one of them maybe) I like that in your post. You did not just rant wildly some rhetoric form the extreme right. And I totally agree that helping those that won't help themselves is wrong. Problem has been too many suffer by not helping anyone. I'd gladly trade our welfare for healthcare for the poor but that's not how it works. Absolute minimum in this country has to be "some" level of health care for all. Once you get folks off their high horse and admit that then we can start helping people before they go the the emergency room dieing. That removes clutter in the ER and saves $.
Fact is with increased loss of personal privacy (databases on us all) there should be ways to reduce fraud in both welfare and healthcare now. Combine that with having say one or two less wars should help pay for what we need at home.
If you dismiss the KKK type folks and other haters and just look at what this guy has done and has tried to do he makes the Bush legacy look pretty lamb. Looking forward to 4 more years.
OK now religion :)
I don't care WHAT religion you are or say someone else is. That's one of our freedoms in the country. That goes for the president even if in someone's mind he's Muslim

[SteelBlueZR1]

:proud::cheers::Eagle:

[efnfast]

Definatly proud to be an American.
Who brought the KKK into the president thing?

[USAFPILOT]

Well since Obama is half white he must be in the KKK, right?

[efnfast]

Wow! This is really compelling story (not?!). If a volunteer investigator - Mike Zullo hired by a rogue Sherriff Arpaio, who himself is under investigation by a Federal Grand Jury for abuse of power, tells a local Fox News affiliate their investigation - prompted by the Tea Party - reveals Obama faked his Birth Certificate... It must be true?
Come on people, use your common sense here and understand the source of allegations is too suspect to claim - "Confirmed Obamas Birth Cert is a Fake.". Our Country's greatness will whither away, unless we seek truths vs. opinions based on preconceived notions - garbage in = garbage out.
Everyone I've met thru ZR1 Net seems to be caring, compassionate and tolerant, so why fill our board with politically motivated banter, when we are really here to share our passion for ZR1's?
I no longer read Corvette Forum, as it is full of political rhetoric and hate speech. I prefer to leave politics to political blogs and ZR1's to the ZR1 forum.
Does it matter who reported this? If the court jester catches the king doing something wrong, do you dismiss it simply because it is reported by the court jester.
Is health care a right?

[scottfab]

Well since Obama is half white he must be in the KKK, right?

dunno but he doesn't wear a US flag pin on his lapel so he must be communist right? And he has a dog so he must hate cats, right? And there are two birth notices in two different Hawaiian newspapers from the early 60s so there must have been a conspiracy to fake his birth dating from five decades ago, right. Seems to me he got the Bin Ladin, got GM in record profits and doing what he can on the economy from what was handed to him by the "where are those darn WMDs" Bush. :fahne:

[efnfast]

So, nobody sends me anything pro Obama. This is the first I've heard of birth notices. Where can I find them?

[scottfab]

So, nobody sends me anything pro Obama. This is the first I've heard of birth notices. Where can I find them?

I think most middle American's don't believe the BS that is circulated about Obama. I mean you have the blind sheep that just pass it along to go along but thinking people can see through it. (mostly Obama bashing in emails or cheap shots in forums like this) I mean it is SOOO over the top biased that most of us are just waiting for the election. Why waist time with the haters.

The birth notices were reported by a similar news feed as the one that got this thread started. You'd have to see it or ask that reporter. Not too many papers on the big island though. I think those that brought it up are way backed off now. It'd be such a waste of political ammo in the coming election that it would be stupid. And you can bet the big companies backing the team of Romney lovers and their think tank will not be so stupid.

Not much gets said about the wars that were started before Obama took office and that we're turning it over to the locals now. That's really too bad. He's way far from perfect and is quite hideous looking but as Pres he's done an honest and credible job. It's just too bad he wasted the first two years trying to get along with the like of "the Boner".

[MikeGolf]

[QUOTE=scottfab;138031]Not much gets said about the wars that were started before Obama took office and that we're turning it over to the locals now. That's really too bad. :blahblah:

Like Korea-Truman (D)NOT, Kosovo- Clinton(D)NOT, Somolia- Clinton(D) what locals, and believe me he has us in Pakistan fighting. I know I have the T-shirts. We just moved all of our stuff to Kuwait and moth balled it because we're going back. And he scares me playing chicken with Iran. All the while tearing down and weaking the military. Don't ask Don't tell was bad enough...:censored:. A community organizer defending our country Lord help us!

[XfireZ51]

[QUOTE=scottfab;138031]Not much gets said about the wars that were started before Obama took office and that we're turning it over to the locals now. That's really too bad. :blahblah:

Like Korea-Truman (D)NOT, Kosovo- Clinton(D)NOT, Somolia- Clinton(D) what locals, and believe me he has us in Pakistan fighting. I know I have the T-shirts. We just moved all of our stuff to Kuwait and moth balled it because we're going back. And he scares me playing chicken with Iran. All the while tearing down and weaking the military. Don't ask Don't tell was bad enough...:censored:. A community organizer defending our country Lord help us!

Mike,

What's your problem w the repeal of DADT? And that "community organizer",
has more capability and balls to defend this country from terrorism than "chickenhawks" Bush, 5 time draft dodger Cheney, and other cowards like Richard Pearl, Scooter Libby, Doug Feith et al. The lord has helped us.

[John Boothby]

Well, I guess I will get my two-cents in.

Korea was a UN thing after North Korea invaded South Korea. I also believe that Somalia was a UN thing. We still recognize our responsibility to our allies.

I do beleive we were right in going after the Taliban in Afganistan, however there appears to have been no plan. As far as Iraq, my heartfelt thanks goes out to all the troops that were involved in that political Bush grudge war. I blame Bush and his cronies Chaney and Rove, among others, for the loss of over 4K of our finest! I am a Vietnam vet, and I know what it is like to serve our country in a worthless war. In my case over 58K of us died for what! Not a F...ing thing! And I have good friends that were lost in that war. My war started with Eisenhower then Kennedy then Johnson and finally Nixon, who did finally get us out of it. As much of a scoundral that he was, I do respect him for getting us out of that war.

War sucks and shouldn't be taken lightly. I respect our president for recognizing this fact!

Well, I know that my two cents probably is not worth much to some of you, but I had to spend it anyway.

We are all brother's in the ZR-1 and we are also all AMERICANS!!:Eagle:

[scottfab]

War sucks and shouldn't be taken lightly. I respect our president for recognizing this fact!

Well, I know that my two cents probably is not worth much to some of you, but I had to spend it anyway.

We are all brother's in the ZR-1 and we are also all AMERICANS!!:Eagle:

Probably the best two cents in this entire thread. Thanks for adding it. As one who was drafted but told to stand down just 2 wks before having to report for duty in 73 I do agree with the Nixon assessment.

What a worthless title for a thread to begin with. Don't know how I got pulled into the negative hate crap anyway. I normally just laugh off such stuff the same way I do when I see a cigarette but on the sidewalk.

One thing I will say, the one guy with the best chance at winning from the opposition party is Mitt. At least it's not that Newt Grinch guy. What a piece of work that one is.:USFlag:

[John Boothby]

You are lucky to have missed that war!

I had a good friend, Maj Bob Brown, who was lost, along with his weapons officer, flying an F-111 out of Thailand on a solo flight to Hanoi Nov 7, 1972, just weeks before the cease-fire. What a waste!! They still do not know what happened to him and have not retrieved his remains. The strange thing is, from what I had heared from his wife (now deceased), they found his escape capsule and personal belongings in a museum in Russia some years after. I still have his MIA/POW bracelet that I wear occasionally.

[efnfast]

So here we have Mitt. He's from Mass. I moved out of Mass. Political coruptness is business as usual there. Great. Seems all our politicians do what is good for them. Period. Remember when the "pink slime" thing hit the news. Did this woman work for the FDA, I forget, and she's not in the news anymore. She is the news in this story. Know where she is now? She works for the Pink Slime Co. making $750 thouwy a year. That's the news.

[efnfast]

Maybe I'm getting old and cynical. Maybe I'm getting old and actually paying attention to what's going on. Maybe things really are getting bad. Where's George Washington when you need him?

[FU]

Obama got Bin Laden ?!????........Please stop.

[Kevin]

do we really need **** like this posted on here?

[efnfast]

do we really need **** like this posted on here?
Probably not Kevin, 'cause it just gets ugly. Then again, it's up to "we the people" to do something.


:salute:

[John Boothby]

So here we have Mitt. He's from Mass. I moved out of Mass. Political coruptness is business as usual there. Great. Seems all our politicians do what is good for them. Period. Remember when the "pink slime" thing hit the news. Did this woman work for the FDA, I forget, and she's not in the news anymore. She is the news in this story. Know where she is now? She works for the Pink Slime Co. making $750 thouwy a year. That's the news.

I thought that the "Pink Slime" company went out of business?

[efnfast]

John, last I heard they closed three of four plants for lack of demand for their product. I believe they filed chapter 11. That's the power of the people. We don't like it and we're not going to buy it anymore. Fortunaly the government didn't step in to bail them out with tax payer money. Oh yea, I forgot, that would be free money.

[John Boothby]

I always had a thing for Big Mac's. Like every couple of months I would get a craving! Maybe the "Pink Slime" was that "secret" ingrediant that made them so irresistable to me?:sign13:

I agree that bailouts are a tough pill to swallow. But I do beleive they were necessary to prevent millions of innocent folks from losing everything!

[efnfast]

John, you mean like the GM assembly line workers that were being compensated at $82 per hour? They dug their own graves.

[FU]

I always had a thing for Big Mac's. Like every couple of months I would get a craving! Maybe the "Pink Slime" was that "secret" ingrediant that made them so irresistable to me?:sign13:


Funny that you mention having a Big Mac every couple of month's. I do the same ! Don't like the thought of the "Pink Slime" thingy.

[XfireZ51]

John, you mean like the GM assembly line workers that were being compensated at $82 per hour? They dug their own graves.

No UAW worker made or makes $82/hr. That's more Faux Noise bs.
Here's a good article outlining actual hourly wages, then including benefits.
THEN there is a cost associated w funding retiree pensions which the auto companies signed on to. http://www.leanblog.org/2009/02/problem-isnt-union/

Seriously, do you know of ANY auto assembly worker making $170K/yr?
Because that's what $82/hr calcs to. They actually make about $28/hr. + benefits. Sometimes it helps to think about what these numbers mean before just regurgitating them and damaging your credibility.

[John Boothby]

John, you mean like the GM assembly line workers that were being compensated at $82 per hour? They dug their own graves.

That is probably total compensation, which is not much. My Chevy dealer charges $100/hr labor!! So put it in perspective!!

How many hundreds of thousands would have been put out of work in the supporting industries?? Including many small businesses. The auto industry accounts for a huge amount of business in this country.

[John Boothby]

Funny that you mention having a Big Mac every couple of month's. I do the same ! Don't like the thought of the "Pink Slime" thingy.

It's funny isn't it? I mean the craving thing. Probably some secret ingrediant they put in to increase sales!! Ha Ha!

[John Boothby]

I admire Ford for not taking the bailout. However, Ford is a much smaller company than GM. Also, Alan Mulally, was called out of retirement to head up a struggling Ford just a couple of years prior. He was the Project Manager for Boeing on the 777. He did an amazing job on that project! So, they did themselves well by hiring him!!

[John Boothby]

The BIG QUESTION is.....Do you take your ZR1 through the McDonalds Drive Through (Drive Thru)? :D

I have only driven my ZR-1 through the Inn-n-Out burger drive-thru.:-D

[efnfast]

Maybe this will help explain :)

Are Ford Workers Really Paid $73 per Hour? (http://blogs.payscale.com/ask_dr_salary/2008/12/are-ford-workers-really-paid-73-an-hour.html)

Thanks Cliff, that was a good article, but unless I read it wrong, compensation package was $75.00 p/h.

[scottfab]

No UAW worker made or makes $82/hr. That's more Faux Noise bs.
Here's a good article outlining actual hourly wages, then including benefits.
THEN there is a cost associated w funding retiree pensions which the auto companies signed on to. http://www.leanblog.org/2009/02/problem-isnt-union/

Seriously, do you know of ANY auto assembly worker making $170K/yr?
Because that's what $82/hr calcs to. They actually make about $28/hr. + benefits. Sometimes it helps to think about what these numbers mean before just regurgitating them and damaging your credibility.

I hear that same bloated faux noise BS from time to time. I think these people get fuzzy brain from too much "pink slime". It good to see real facts being posted.

Remember that game in grade school where something is whispered in someones ear the passed on around the room and comes out different from the last one in line? That's I think how $82/hr stuff starts and propagates. Next you'll hear the unions are communist conspiracies or extra terrestrials. :) . The sad fact is facebook and media like the forum make it easier to spread false info.

Challenge what you hear. Hear both sides. Use common sense. Don't jump on a band wagon out of hate.;)

[John Boothby]

I

Challenge what you hear. Hear both sides. Use common sense. Don't jump on a band wagon out of hate.;)

Common sense has become a rare trait these days!

[efnfast]

Guy's, I'm bailing on this. Exactly who's facts do we believe? Facts are indisputable. Every time I hear a "fact", tomorrow it turns out it really isn't. 'Nough said.

[MikeGolf]

[QUOTE=MikeGolf;138057]

Mike,

What's your problem w the repeal of DADT? And that "community organizer",
has more capability and balls to defend this country from terrorism than "chickenhawks" Bush, 5 time draft dodger Cheney, and other cowards like Richard Pearl, Scooter Libby, Doug Feith et al. The lord has helped us.

If the Lord has helped us, Obama has not slowed down that $4 gas. Can I hear a $5 :p
DADT no problem, They got caught they got kicked out, simple. But now that soldiers can be openly gay we have a problem. Let us look at this legally and logically. Basic Training. We seperate the males and the females into different barracks for a reason. Correct? Fraternzation goes on every cycle and we can't stop it. We have young men and women with raging harmones away from home for the first time for most in close quarters. Now do we seperate the straight males from the gay males and the the gay male by orientation(?) and the do female the same? Just to stop fraternzation. This a legal concern. Let's not forget your transgender. How many check SEX boxes do we need to be PC. Now let us move this into the military main stream. I can only talk about the Infantry. I was an Infantryman for 26 yrs and we had no sexual harassment problems. But today an Infantry leader will have to deal with male/male harassment and fraternzation. On the harassment side a leader cannot watch all his soldiers 24 hrs a day a day can not read their minds, but accidents happen in combat and in training, FACT. This will bring down the morale of the fight soldier. So yes I do have a problem with it, Not becuase of a soldiers sexual orientation but that of two soldiers orientation together. Male/female or male/male or female/female. But I claiming to be a lesbian.:cheers:
George W signed a blank check saying that he would give his life if need be in the defense of his country as did his father. Did Obama ever sign anything saying he would give his life defending this country and it's people? NOPE. Watching it on TV and playing the video game isn't the same. Going into a war zone with more protection than the Pope doesn't give you combat experience. The last President with Combat experience was George H..
"Nuff Said"- Stan Lee

[scottfab]

[QUOTE=XfireZ51;138058]

If the Lord has helped us, Obama has not slowed down that $4 gas. Can I hear a $5 :p
DADT no problem, They got caught they got kicked out, simple. But now that soldiers can be openly gay we have a problem. Let us look at this legally and logically. Basic Training. We seperate the males and the females into different barracks for a reason. Correct? Fraternzation goes on every cycle and we can't stop it. We have young men and women with raging harmones away from home for the first time for most in close quarters. Now do we seperate the straight males from the gay males and the the gay male by orientation(?) and the do female the same? Just to stop fraternzation. This a legal concern. Let's not forget your transgender. How many check SEX boxes do we need to be PC. Now let us move this into the military main stream. I can only talk about the Infantry. I was an Infantryman for 26 yrs and we had no sexual harassment problems. But today an Infantry leader will have to deal with male/male harassment and fraternzation. On the harassment side a leader cannot watch all his soldiers 24 hrs a day a day can not read their minds, but accidents happen in combat and in training, FACT. This will bring down the morale of the fight soldier. So yes I do have a problem with it, Not becuase of a soldiers sexual orientation but that of two soldiers orientation together. Male/female or male/male or female/female. But I claiming to be a lesbian.:cheers:
George W signed a blank check saying that he would give his life if need be in the defense of his country as did his father. Did Obama ever sign anything saying he would give his life defending this country and it's people? NOPE. Watching it on TV and playing the video game isn't the same. Going into a war zone with more protection than the Pope doesn't give you combat experience. The last President with Combat experience was George H..
"Nuff Said"- Stan Lee

I don't have combat experience. What does that make me?
A president can't be a good president without signing something that say's he'd give his life? hmmm
George H was an exceptional individual. A war hero.
FYI here is the Presidential Oath. Seems pretty straight forward.
nuff said. Oh I mean typed.
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

Europe has shown the unisex bathrooms work.
I got use to it while there.
I don't think we can underestimate the ability of today's soldier to adapt.
I'd prefer this to all go away but if it's here it's here.
Putting our head in the sand does not make it go away.
I respect the opinion of those who have served and served many years.
And yet that was then. This is now. Times change.
In the last 4yrs I've adapted to the idea that gays are in fact people
and deserve to be treated as such. It's time the nation think it through.

Now on to health care :)
Oh boy.......
Nah, time to let this thread die of natural causes.

[XfireZ51]

[QUOTE=XfireZ51;138058]

If the Lord has helped us, Obama has not slowed down that $4 gas. Can I hear a $5 :p
DADT no problem, They got caught they got kicked out, simple. But now that soldiers can be openly gay we have a problem. Let us look at this legally and logically. Basic Training. We seperate the males and the females into different barracks for a reason. Correct? Fraternzation goes on every cycle and we can't stop it. We have young men and women with raging harmones away from home for the first time for most in close quarters. Now do we seperate the straight males from the gay males and the the gay male by orientation(?) and the do female the same? Just to stop fraternzation. This a legal concern. Let's not forget your transgender. How many check SEX boxes do we need to be FPC. Now let us move this into the military main stream. I can only talk about the Infantry. I was an Infantryman for 26 yrs and we had no sexual harassment problems. But today an Infantry leader will have to deal with male/male harassment and fraternzation. On the harassment side a leader cannot watch all his soldiers 24 hrs a day a day can not read their minds, but accidents happen in combat and in training, FACT. This will bring down the morale of the fight soldier. So yes I do have a problem with it, Not becuase of a soldiers sexual orientation but that of two soldiers orientation together. Male/female or male/male or female/female. But I claiming to be a lesbian.:cheers:
George W signed a blank check saying that he would give his life if need be in the defense of his country as did his father. Did Obama ever sign anything saying he would give his life defending this country and it's people? NOPE. Watching it on TV and playing the video game isn't the same. Going into a war zone with more protection than the Pope doesn't give you combat experience. The last President with Combat experience was George H..
"Nuff Said"- Stan Lee

Stan

Let me make it simpler for you. They get shot or blown up, they bleed red.
That's enough said.

And it's easy to sign a blank check about serving your country when it's your daddy that make sure it never gets cashed. BTW, where was W for a year? Nobody's saying. Rehab??-

I'm assuming you won't be voting for Romney if service in the military is a criteria. Do missions in France count?

[MikeGolf]

In Kabul, Afghanistan on 31 Jul 07 at 0845 I witnessed what blind loyalty to a faith or a leader can do. I know the color of honor and the color of corwardice is. I earned the rights to wear medals and badges that many great people have done before me. I will always question the integrity of anyone that calls himself a politcian. No you do not have to serve to be a great American. It takes those that build the beans and bullets so we can fight to make the soldier win. But I welcome Home those Vietnam vets that got spit on and called baby killers by their fellow countrymen. They are HERO's.
As for Obama defending the constitution, Isn't his administration fighting in the Supreme Court to see if his Health Care is even constitional legal. So what constitution does he defend when he makes up his own? Or the one ACORN wanted. Or Hollywood has envisioned.
I would also like to point out that this is a demoracy where the majority rules. That doesn't mean that a minority can infringe it's beliefs on the majority. Remember MAJORITY RULES, they may be people but don't force it on me. Or your health care that a majority of states are suing against. But that is why I fought is so that every American can have their own opion no matter how stupid I think it may be. That's what makes America Great Freedom of Speech, Try that overseas.

Stan Lee wrote Spiderman, X-men comic books he always ended them with "nuff said" I quoted him.

PLEASE KILL THIS THREAD!!!!!!

Honor

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2da29b3127cceff843c26c7f100000030O00AYtWzFk5btG YPbz4a/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Cowardice

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2da29b3127cceff848062c7eb00000030O00AYtWzFk5btG YPbz4a/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

[XfireZ51]

You're obfuscating. BTW, in our Constitution it is the rights of the individual that are protected, not those of a "majority". That's what you fought for and I salute your service.

[MikeGolf]

Thanks for your support. Now I can be a politician. ;)

[John Boothby]

Mike, I respect, and thank you for your service. And, you have the right to believe what you think is right. You also have the right to speak your beliefs, and I respect that.

The Constitution was established to protect the IDIVIDUAL'S rights, not that of the majority. We have the right to vote, as a group, however, the Supreme Court is there to rule on disputed issues. The Affordable Health Care Law was upheld by some judges as well as ruled unconstitutional by others. The Supreme Court is deciding the matter, hopefully, ignoring politics.

As for gay's in the military, they have been there since the begining of time. I can only imagine what the Greek and Roman Armies were like! Anyway, I think that the only thing that will change is that these people will be able to serve, honorably, without the fear of being kicked out! Remember, they still will have to live by the rules and laws under UCMJ. They break the law, they serve the punishment.

Also, there was a reason our forefather's saw fit to have civilian rule over the military. Yes, we have had presidents that served, but it is not a requirement.

Anyway, welcome home my friend! Be safe, and be true to your beliefs! Keep an open mind though!:handshak:

[Eric24]

Mike -

It is funny how these great Americans who say the current leader is doing a good job or want to argue with you, someone with 26 years of experience in the
Infantry think they have the right to comment on DADT or other issues.

I don't think it is completely neccessary to have Military background to be the President, but you better damn well support it, unlike our current leader who appologizes and would not wear an american flag on his lapel until he received so much heat for it.

Also, he did not get Bin Laden, that fell in his lap, right place, right time! If he was in charge when 9-11 happened he would of apologized for something and we would have set on our thumbs.

Comments like he waisted his first 2 years drive me nuts. You are top dog, he chose to do what he did, he chose to be a follower instead of a Leader! He has done nothing for us but make promise after promise just like he did when he was running, all talk. Maybe you dont agree with Bush going into Iraq but at least he made a decision and stood by it. Maybe we did not find WMA's but at least we were not seen as weak cowards, i'm glad we went.

What we need is a strong, confident, Leader, one who is truly proud to be an American. All politics suck, i have always tried to stay away from this but it is hard with him in charge.

Look it is already hard to be a Soldier these days but he has made it even harder...

Oh, I currently have 21 years in as a Infantry Soldier

[John Boothby]

[QUOTE:It is funny how these great Americans who say the current leader is doing a good job or want to argue with you, someone with 26 years of experience in the
Infantry think they have the right to comment on DADT or other issues.QUOTE]

Everyone has their opinion. And the right to express it!

What were you doing in 1968? I was enduring almost nightly rocket and mortar attacks in Vietnam! I spent many nights in a trench with my M-14 ready to defend our small post from the NVA!

I enlisted in 1965 and was regular Army! I spent 4 years in the service. Every generation of my family has served in the military back to the Civil War, including North and South! I havn't researched back to the Revolutionary war yet, but my family has been here since prior to 1700!

I think Obama has done a stand up job regardless of the uncomprimising Tea Party Repubs that have tried to block every move he has made to try to fix what they created!

Just because I have different opinions than you does not make me any less of an American or less Patriotic!

I do not hate you, I just have a different opinion of things. This is just a discussion. That is all!

Over and out!:salute:

[scottfab]

I think Obama has done a stand up job regardless of the uncomprimising Tea Party Repubs that have tried to block every move he has made to try to fix what they created!

Just because I have different opinions than you does not make me any less of an American or less Patriotic!



Wow, profound and well articulated.

A key feature to look for on those that disagree with policy is the language. There is hate for the man (president) and not the policy itself. Those are the haters.
Why are some of the states oppose to the current health care law? And why is it in the court? Because it maybe in fact unconstitutional. If so, so be it. That does NOT mean the president that supported it is against the constitution or violating his oath. It's a test of the legality. Only if he challenges the courts authority is he violation his oath.

My opinion of heath care is this. It's a simple embarrassment that we didn't have a health care law. nuff said. We can go off following a supposed "strong" leader even if he's wrong but we can't take care of our own? sad.

Bin Ladin thrown in Obama's lap? Yah right. That's why it took 3yrs to find and approve of taking him out. Oh wait. He couldn't make that decision right? He's weak, right? The only thing that got thrown in Obama's lap was a high pile of stinking economy with banks running a muck. Thanks to George W and his mediocre fumbling ways.

One of the things I admired about George H was that he got into wiping out Sadam and then got out. I don't disagree with this country taking decisive action against tyrants but we have a terrible record of getting the hell out when done. What? we're still there protecting our freedom over here? hmmmm

Ok next onto the "Buffet" tax.... I'd really like to hear arguments of why billionairs should not pay more that 14% tax and I pay 31%?
Oh sorry I should say "job providers" right?
I'm going to be watching very carefully what law-makes oppose this come voting day. Remember these are the same law-makes that raise their own salaries and benefits even as the country suffers.

[Eric24]

Bin Ladin thrown in Obama's lap? Yah right. That's why it took 3yrs to find and approve of taking him out. Oh wait. He couldn't make that decision right? He's weak, right? The only thing that got thrown in Obama's lap was a high pile of stinking economy with banks running a muck. Thanks to George W and his mediocre fumbling ways.

First, I resepct your opinion on whoever you like as the President or want as the President, no issues there....

What i have an issue is when people bring in the Military stuff, and #1 have not served or #2 dont know the real facts.

He was the Presdient at the right time with Bin Laden, if you have been there you would know how hard it is to find people, especially him. I will leave it at that.

If he is so great then why has he not fixed or at least improved on this, "high pile of stinking economy"? He has worked on it, he has made it worse....

Bottom line, I dont agree with any policies he has tried to bring, he has no clue, and is NOT a leader in my eyes...If you disagree with me, thats your right, your welcome.

[Eric24]

John-

Thanks for your service, Vietnam was a bad war and you all were treated like crap when you came back....BOTTOM LINE

I talk to Vets all the time, we support and remember the Golden Rakkasans from the great 101st Airborne Division every year for the Hamburger Hill fight. I get to talk to those great Americans every year, so I know about that war as well.

I dont want to compare the 2 wars or this or that but...

I enlisted as well in 1990, my family has served as far back as i know as well. I have served multiple tours and have seen my fare share of IDF, IED, Direct Fire Attacks as well...

I dont think he is a stand up guy at all, and i have not fouond one person in my line of work that disagrees with me

Never said your less of an American or Patriot and if it seemed like that I'm sorry, did not mean it that way

I dont hate you either, i dont hate anyone...

[scottfab]

He was the Presdient at the right time with Bin Laden, if you have been there you would know how hard it is to find people, especially him. I will leave it at that.

If he is so great then why has he not fixed or at least improved on this, "high pile of stinking economy"? He has worked on it, he has made it worse....

Bottom line, I dont agree with any policies he has tried to bring, he has no clue, and is NOT a leader in my eyes...If you disagree with me, thats your right, your welcome.

I guess I can agree he was in the right place. But you'd have to agree he approved of the action taken. That is not a weak thing to do.

I don't think Obama is a "great" president. He's just not as weak or impotent as you'd have him be. And I guess he was just in the right place at the right time to get us the hell out of Iraq. Again not a great president just one in the right place at the right time.

I would advise you to check your facts on the economy. Sounds like you're just passing along what you hear from the opposition party cronies and the blocking tactics in congress. It is in fact recovering. He has in my opinion done an outstanding job there. But then again he's just in the right place at the right time. Bush handed this opportunity to him. To do your research study what Hover did to cause the world (that's right the whole world) to go into a depression. His trickle down economy set out to make money more scarce (spend less) and this caught on as a message to the rest of the world as well as the people of the US. This caused an avalanche of like type thinking wish made a bad situation even worse.
(Discovery Channel special on Hover)

Will i vote for Obama again? Not really sure. Depends on what the other side has to offer and says, and if I can believe them. I am keeping an open mind. But I will tell you that I will not hold ANY one's religion a deciding factor even if they are accused of being a certain religion or of having multiple wives. Or if ones father was Muslim.

I congratulate you on having opinions and expressing them. I challenge you to look at opinions of others from both sides with an open mind. Then if you believe such things as not having a US flag lapel pin is a deal breaker for you, go for it.
:handshak:

[John Boothby]

John-

Thanks for your service, Vietnam was a bad war and you all were treated like crap when you came back....BOTTOM LINE

I talk to Vets all the time, we support and remember the Golden Rakkasans from the great 101st Airborne Division every year for the Hamburger Hill fight. I get to talk to those great Americans every year, so I know about that war as well.

I dont want to compare the 2 wars or this or that but...

I enlisted as well in 1990, my family has served as far back as i know as well. I have served multiple tours and have seen my fare share of IDF, IED, Direct Fire Attacks as well...

I dont think he is a stand up guy at all, and i have not fouond one person in my line of work that disagrees with me

Never said your less of an American or Patriot and if it seemed like that I'm sorry, did not mean it that way

I dont hate you either, i dont hate anyone...

Now we are on the same page. We could even have a beer together!!:handshak:

[Eric24]

Now we are on the same page. We could even have a beer together!!:handshak:


"A" Beer? Maybe more then 1..... :cheers:

[John Boothby]

"A" Beer? Maybe more then 1..... :cheers:

I'll buy the first!:cheers:

[MikeGolf]

John and Eric, WELCOME HOME! We need to have a PTSD chat room, but I tell the wife that is what I bought the ZR-1 for. I'll buy the next round.:handshak:

[FU]

Each one buy's a round......then the next 20 are on me :cheers:

[John Boothby]

I am ready to talk ZR-1'S!! Nothing like a few beers to bring guys together!!:cheers:

[Blue Flame Restorations]

I'm not highly political. Didn't even vote until 8 yrs ago. I did so because I didn't like what I saw from our leadership. I still see no leadership from either side. I was in the leadership field for 30yrs and I long for a President to actually lead.

Even though I dis-like Obama, he's my President for now. I have to support him. I rarely agree with him though. He'll be voted into office again because there's no one running against him that can beat him. He's a money machine as well.

We're in trouble, big trouble, and the deadlock is sickening.
:flag2:

[scottfab]

We're in trouble, big trouble, and the deadlock is sickening.
:flag2:

That's for sure. The party line rhetoric from both sides is so
very depressing. :(

[John Boothby]

I agree with you guys. In addition I cannot remember when the hatred for each other was so pronounced. In my opinion it all started with Palin and the Tea Party types. And Mitch McConnel didn't help matters any when he stated that his "main goal was to get rid of Obama". I hate to say it, but in my mind the only explanation is that Obama is a person of color.

Basically, I was a Hillary fan. I could have voted for McCain if it wasn't for Palin.

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Personally, I don't see it as a race issue. I see a man with charisma that got into office when change was the battle cry. There were great expectations and the man lacks leadership capabilities. I would feel the sme if he was a republican or a caucasion.

[MikeGolf]

I supported Herman Cain. I liked his tax plan.

[Blue Flame Restorations]

I supported Herman Cain. I liked his tax plan.


Glad you made it home ok. It was nice to meet you.

[scottfab]

I supported Herman Cain. I liked his tax plan.

I always liked Pat Paulsen. He seemed to balance things about right :)

-----http://www.paulsen.com/pat/

As long as the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer
we are all at risk. At some point greed has to give way. One way or the other. :(

[vandornjim]

Mike -

It is funny how these great Americans who say the current leader is doing a good job or want to argue with you, someone with 26 years of experience in the Infantry think they have the right to comment on DADT or other issues.

I don't think it is completely neccessary to have Military background to be the President, but you better damn well support it, unlike our current leader who appologizes and would not wear an american flag on his lapel until he received so much heat for it.
<snip>
Oh, I currently have 21 years in as a Infantry Soldier

Now Eric, you haven't been around here for as many years as the great ScotFab. Didn't you know he has single handedly re-invented virtually everything he has ever come upon? He's a legend 'round these parts. Sheesh.

And why would you think the Commander in Chief should support the military? Shoot, dude (no wait-bad choice of words) hold on dude, this president can't confirm his school grades, lived in much of his life in foreign non-Christian countries, was abandoned by both of his parents until they needed to get into the US, and finally, never got a private paycheck in his life!

Now he's in the highest office in charge, got a $30,000 and HOUR plane to jet around in, and a billion dollar staff to keep his 'ol lady busy so he can play. YOu gotta love this guy!

And what the heck do you know anyway! All you've done is serve your country for 20+ years, lived in real combat and experienced real death on both sides, gone weeks without hot food or a shower. Watched the REAL war and corruption that doesn't get acknowledged by most media attention back home?

For those who aren't familiar with the oath taken by a US Servicemen AND the POTUS (Pres of the US), here it is.

“I, (your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

Today there are many who would strike the words "swear" and "God". I didn't.

YOu might notice there is the word AND between "foreign AND domestic."

Man.....I remember somebody named Jimmie Carter once when I was active duty.

It really makes me wonder. WHat would a DOMESTIC ENEMY look like anyway? I mean for reals. We took that oath of service for life. There is no termination date. So the big questions is really, what makes a domestic enemy in the first place?

Maybe it's as simple as a habitual offender in violating our own US Constitution? In reality, there is no actual written definition I can find. So I guess that leaves it up to us.

I don't have much respect for ANY career politican. I don't care if they are of one color or another, man or woman. I just want someone smart, loyal and experienced enough to rescue this nation and return it to what our Constitution prescribes, defines, and protects.

And FSC (E8) SGT Eric, (Army Ranger-Airborn Combat Division) those 'ol boys did a pretty d@mn good job when they wrote that Constitution back in 1787. How could they possibly have predicted back then and wrote a document that would be so important today? They just left one thing out I can see....

"A candidate for the Office of Present of the United States of America shall have served in it's armed forces and be so honorably discharged."
:Eagle:

[John Boothby]

Hey Jim, you forgot the birth certificate issue!

[XfireZ51]

Hey Jim, you forgot the birth certificate issue!

John,

I don't think Jim has a bumper big enough for all of his bumper sticker politics.

[John Boothby]

I was just being a Wise A..! Ha Ha!

I don't want to get on the wrong side of Jim. I might need him some day!!

Thanks Jim, for your support of out little corner of the world!!:cheers:

[MikeGolf]

I always liked Pat Paulsen. He seemed to balance things about right :)

-----http://www.paulsen.com/pat/

As long as the rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer
we are all at risk. At some point greed has to give way. One way or the other. :(

He was always a favorite of mine too! Said everything with a straight face. =D&gt;

[John Boothby]

He was funny! That deadpan face, Ha Ha.

I remember him on the Jackie Gleason show. One of the "Man in the Street" charactors.

[scottfab]

And why would you think the Commander in Chief should support the military? Shoot, dude (no wait-bad choice of words) hold on dude, this president can't confirm his school grades, lived in much of his life in foreign non-Christian countries, was abandoned by both of his parents until they needed to get into the US, and finally, never got a private paycheck in his life!

Now he's in the highest office in charge, got a $30,000 and HOUR plane to jet around in, and a billion dollar staff to keep his 'ol lady busy so he can play. YOu gotta love this guy!


Listen carefully Eric. JVD has got all the facts that really matter. It's the definition of the American dream. You don't have to be rich, or of any certain religion or even have perfect parents to become President of the most powerful nation in the world. All you need is the majority of the votes and an idea for changing the SOP of a failed set of policies. Heck you don't even have to have clean underwear or know the difference between a oil field and a WMD. Ask JVD.

And everyone know you can't be a good American citizen if you don't waive the flag and have served in the military.

[scottfab]

And what the heck do you know anyway! All you've done is serve your country for 20+ years, lived in real combat and experienced real death on both sides, gone weeks without hot food or a shower. Watched the REAL war and corruption that doesn't get acknowledged by most media attention back home?

For those who aren't familiar with the oath taken by a US Servicemen AND the POTUS (Pres of the US), here it is.

“I, (your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.”

Today there are many who would strike the words "swear" and "God". I didn't.



Yah if you've served that long under those conditions you must know at least as much as JVD and well you have as much right to be in the minority as he has.

Oh and as far as I can see on the official government site the oath is not as above. It's this:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

[scottfab]

Man.....I remember somebody named Jimmie Carter once when I was active duty.

It really makes me wonder. WHat would a DOMESTIC ENEMY look like anyway? I mean for reals. We took that oath of service for life. There is no termination date. So the big questions is really, what makes a domestic enemy in the first place?

Maybe it's as simple as a habitual offender in violating our own US Constitution? In reality, there is no actual written definition I can find. So I guess that leaves it up to us.



Wow JVD was in active duty. Thanks for you service JVD.
Domestic enemy definition must be what ever JVD thinks it is.
I mean he couldn't be wrong, right?
It might be as simple as an habitual offender of the constitution
but then just as when the income tax law was passed by congress (just like the health care law) it has to go to the supreme court to find out. I kinda which it had been unconstitutional but ooops it's not. (says the court)

Personally I don't want to be the "us" who decides what an "enemy of the state" is. I'm not qualified. I didn't serve. And well. I'm not in the supreme court.

[scottfab]

I don't have much respect for ANY career politican. I don't care if they are of one color or another, man or woman. I just want someone smart, loyal and experienced enough to rescue this nation and return it to what our Constitution prescribes, defines, and protects.

And FSC (E8) SGT Eric, (Army Ranger-Airborn Combat Division) those 'ol boys did a pretty d@mn good job when they wrote that Constitution back in 1787. How could they possibly have predicted back then and wrote a document that would be so important today? They just left one thing out I can see....

"A candidate for the Office of Present of the United States of America shall have served in it's armed forces and be so honorably discharged."

Right on the nail. Politicians (that is the correct spelling) are to be suspect just by the job description. They should all be attacked with jealous rage from all the nations peanut galleries. I mean that's what they signed up for isn't it?

And right on the nail too JVD on the references to constitution but I defer it's interpretation to (again) the supreme court. And I am so glad the founders saw the error to and did not include a requirement of service in the armed forces else we'd be permanently lead by those that have advance in those ranks rather than the best (most popular) citizen.
But if I were to add a requirement it'd be waiving a flag at one time or another. I mean that has to be a necessary thing right?:USFlag:

[John Boothby]

You guys do realize that without the draft (as it was in my day) the percentage of Americans that do choose to put "their all" on the line for our great country is dwindling. The "Citizen Soldier" is going to be a ghost of the past, in favor of the career soldiers. Personally, I am in favor of a draft. To much has fallen on the shoulders of too few the last 10 years!

[scottfab]

You guys do realize that without the draft (as it was in my day) the percentage of Americans that do choose to put "their all" on the line for our great country is dwindling. The "Citizen Soldier" is going to be a ghost of the past, in favor of the career soldiers. Personally, I am in favor of a draft. To much has fallen on too few the last 10 years!

I've often thought Israel has a great idea.
All must serve in one capacity of another.
I served 4yrs working to make military and shuttle radios at Rockwell .
Not exactly front line but then most grunts that serve
aren't Navy Seal types either.
I had one work for me for 6 yrs. Certainly a different kind
of worker for sure.

[John Boothby]

Funny you should bring up Israel. My neighbor is a naturalized American citizen, an Israeli. He was a Major in the Army and served on the Egyptian front during the 72 war.

I have had many talks with him regarding Israel and their Army. First, Israel has a socialistic economic system. They have state funded medical. Their taxes are very high. They have manditory military service for EVERYONE, including women. They do have exceptions. When you get out of the service, they will pay for your education at the University. In addition, while in the service you pay no taxes.

Israel is a land of about 7 million and they are surrounded by many times that number of arabs, their sworn enemy. They are determined to protect their nation by any means necessay. They welcome American aide, however, they will take whatever military steps are necessary to defend their country regardless of the USA's wishes.

Scott, you are right, it takes a team. God Bless them all!!

[vandornjim]

<snip>
And I am so glad the founders saw the error to and did not include a requirement of service in the armed forces else we'd be permanently lead by those that have advance in those ranks rather than the best (most popular) citizen.
Interesting enough, EVERY POTUS since (& including) Truman has served in the military EXCEPT for Clinton and Obama. Some were THE most popular President's in this country's recent history, although many of their legacies weren’t.

Unlike ScotFab, I don't believe “popularity” is the most credible of qualifications. In fact, if that premise is used exclusively, I see it as eminent danger. The media plays too big a role in gaining popularity and keeping it. After all, Hitler was also “popular” once.

The reality of achievement, experience, sound judgment and discipline are major character traits which are focused upon especially, but not solely, with military experience.

Simply put, becoming the POTUS is NOT the time to learn about how our military, the most powerful in the world, works. And if it comes to that (like today) you had better listen to your generals, consult the Congress (as required but ignored today), and above all, support your troops (and your country) with everything you can, 100% of the time.


I think Obama has done a stand up job regardless of the uncomprimising Tea Party Repubs that have tried to block every move he has made to try to fix what they created!
Always interesting when the defense mechanisms come out. The good ‘ol Blame Game. Happens every time when someone can’t perform. In golf it’s “the greens weren’t good enough”, in ball it’s “all the ref’s fault”. And how many times have I heard “it was like that when it came in” here in my own shop. I don’t give a Sh!t. It’s here, it has a problem, SO WE FIX IT! Just remember though, if you can’t fix it, or refuse to, then we allow someone ELSE fix it.

What we need is a strong, confident, Leader, one who is truly proud to be an American.

Amen Eric and we can’t thank you enough for your service. Boothby raises his experience in the VN war. Although a valiant effort on our troops behalf, that should always stand as THE largest single mistake in our nation’s history. Like Afghanistan, it too was NOT a declared war but our troops were sent regardless of our Constitution (many against their will), because we didn’t use the word “war”. It was merely an “armed conflict”. What happened after that was nothing less than a capital offense. Our very own government misled its citizens at home, while refusing to let our troops win. When it was all over, what did we accomplish again? I forget.

Sound familiar yet?

The Russians tried but failed but we’re there (Afghanistan) regardless. For what? To try and change a society that is so primitive you couldn’t even begin to make sense out of it. Where women are maimed or killed by men with no penalty? Where children have their hands cut off if they accept a candy or even attend school? Where the main export of the land is heroin? But more importantly, it’s where thousands of our troops have been killed and the remainder deeply insulted when our Commander in Chief repeatedly apologizes to THEM (the Afghans) after putting us there in the first place! And after, when this is all said and done, what will we have accomplished? That remains to be seen...

Eric knows firsthand the effects of that, but he can’t talk about it. So I have…

Sometimes the facts are hard to deal with and may be very frustrating. It is hard to understand how ANY Commander in Chief, with no military experience, despite his general’s recommendations, could suggest we drastically cut our armed forces, in order cut costs….so we can hand out more entitlement checks and grow our government even larger.

Been to an airport lately? Maybe had one of them 60,000 TSA agents stick their finger up your….uh….waistband? Ever wonder what the TSA costs to operate? 8.1 BILLION (2012)

Wanna know how many terrorists they caught so far? Zero.

Wanna know how many children have been in tears while being illegally searched by a TSA complete stranger? About half the number of their parents who are too ignorant to know better.
I was just being a Wise A..! Ha Ha! I don't want to get on the wrong side of Jim. I might need him some day!!
Thanks Jim, for your support of our little corner of the world!!

Don’t worry John. My feelings don’t get hurt very often. Either one of them….;)

[John Boothby]

[COLOR=black]
[FONT=Calibri]Don’t worry John. My feelings don’t get hurt very often. Either one of them….;)[/QUOTE]

Thank God!! ;)

[scottfab]

Interesting enough, EVERY POTUS since (& including) Truman has served in the military EXCEPT for Clinton and Obama. Some were THE most popular President's in this country's recent history, although many of their legacies weren’t.

There have been 16 presidents (answers.com) who have not served in the military. It would make as much sense to require that all supreme court justices serve as a prison guard. A president leads not just the military (commander and chief) but the citizens too. He has generals to advise him as did Bush when he got us in Afghanistan in 2001. (some may have forgot that in the blame Obama for everything game)


Unlike ScotFab, I don't believe “popularity” is the most credible of qualifications. In fact, if that premise is used exclusively, I see it as eminent danger. The media plays too big a role in gaining popularity and keeping it. After all, Hitler was also “popular” once.

Unlike JVD I don't think our system of majority vote is a "qualification". It's a measure. But I'd have to agree there is a danger. The danger is made even more possible now that corporate financing of candidates is officially legal (recent supreme court ruling). Under that ruling a corporation has the rights of individuals to donate cash and there is no limit. Beware of the ads you're about to be barraged with.


Simply put, becoming the POTUS is NOT the time to learn about how our military, the most powerful in the world, works. And if it comes to that (like today) you had better listen to your generals, consult the Congress (as required but ignored today), and above all, support your troops (and your country) with everything you can, 100% of the time.

When a rogue solder kills civilians I don't think blanket support for all troops is proper. A selective support is needed. Cutting back on military spending is a good idea. We were warned by Eisenhower about the military complex and I worked in that industry and saw the waste and corruption. Blind support for ANY entity is wrong in my opinion.



Always interesting when the defense mechanisms come out.

It sure is JVD. It sure is.

Boothby raises his experience in the VN war. Although a valiant effort on our troops behalf, that should always stand as THE largest single mistake in our nation’s history. Like Afghanistan, it too was NOT a declared war but our troops were sent regardless of our Constitution (many against their will), because we didn’t use the word “war”. It was merely an “armed conflict”. What happened after that was nothing less than a capital offense. Our very own government misled its citizens at home, while refusing to let our troops win. When it was all over, what did we accomplish again? I forget.

Exactly right. That's why I say blind support for any entity is an error. The were and are in conflicts we should never have been involved with. period
Yah we make mistakes. The trick is to not spend more lives and $ after bad.


Sometimes the facts are hard to deal with and may be very frustrating. It is hard to understand how ANY Commander in Chief, with no military experience, despite his general’s recommendations, could suggest we drastically cut our armed forces, in order cut costs….so we can hand out more entitlement checks and grow our government even larger.

I don't see the connection. If I stop wasting money by not putting another handgun in my safe I don't think I'm doing it to buy more girl scout cookies.
What's wrong is wrong. Having an open ended military budget is wrong. The US has a history of cutting back military then refocusing the $ where it's needed most. I worked for military company when the B1 bomber was virtually dropped for a time. It was the right decision. The $ was focused on better technology.

Been to an airport lately? Maybe had one of them 60,000 TSA agents stick their finger up your….uh….waistband? Ever wonder what the TSA costs to operate? 8.1 BILLION (2012)

Wanna know how many terrorists they caught so far? Zero.

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20101119/18284511954/whether-not-tsa-has-ever-caught-terrorist-is-apparently-state-secret.shtml

Personally I feel safer knowing there is a TSA there.
I don't piss, whine and moan when I am hand searched. It's been going on internationally way before TSA. (low tech countries have been using this for a long time. My first experience was in 1998)

Personally I don't think Obama is the most charismatic or dynamic leader but he's no cheer leader or a bumbling fool. He's got us out of one hell hole and is working to get us out of the other. He authorized the seal team to use lethal force.
Not sure yet who I'll vote for but I sure as hell am not going to blame Obama for global warming or for the greedy bankers that tipped the economy into recession. I'm not even going to blame him for not being faster at correcting the mistakes of his predecessor.

I'm still proud to be an American but not always proud of what we do as a nation.
:proud:

[John Boothby]

I support our troops 110%!

The problem is when we use the military WITHOUT a full and complete stratigey as to what the goal is and withdrawing from the conflict. We are all responsible for the actions of the "rogue" soldier. He should have never been deployed the last time. We have sent these guys and girls into a nasty conflict with ROE (rules of engagement) that are very similar to Vietnam, and we have sent them back without sufficient rest. I thought we learned that lesson in Vietnam.

I have a good friend that just returned from Afghanastan. He has 36 years in the Army and reserves and is a Sargent Major. He served 3 tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. He is now about used up. I had lunch with him the other day and he said that this war is a big waste! It should have been wrapped up years ago.

When we use our military it should be with the FULL weight of all branches. The only ROE should be "Kill the Enemy" and get the f out! Schwartskoff did it right in the first gulf war.

I am a WWII kind of guy in my thinking. "Git er done"!

[scottfab]

I support our troops 110%!

The problem is when we use the military WITHOUT a full and complete stratigey as to what the goal is and withdrawing from the conflict.


I totally agree. Objective and goals should be concrete. Going over there to protect our freedom here seems a bit vague.
Go over if we need to. Whack their pee-pee and get out.

[vandornjim]

Well at least you put all of your gracious oopinions into one post, not 4 or 5 in a row.

There have been 16 presidents (answers.com) who have not served in the military.

As I said, "SINCE and including TRUMAN" there have been only two. That means since WWII.


It would make as much sense to require that all supreme court justices serve as a prison guard.

Sounds like something you'd make sense of...

Personally I feel safer knowing there is a TSA there.
Good for you buddy. If the governemnt is involved, I feel vulnerable not more secure. If you think a 6 year old little girl is a threat to airline security, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't happen to think so.

I don't piss, whine and moan when I am hand searched.
Did you like it or something? ;)
Well, let's just say when the Pakistani tried to search my youngest at DFW, I didn't piss and moan, I told the truth. I told them if anyone touched my daughter, I would hurt them enough they would remember me for the rest of their lives. There were 6 security people there in a minute or so. In the back room they emptied my daughter's back pack which had already gone through security. Her homework and her Bible was all that was there. It's a parent's thing Scott, maybe something you don't understand?

It is easy to turn this into the typical piss'n match and blame everyone before for our situation. I don't turn to politics.
If I thought Obamba was the greatest of all greats, the simple fact that he can't get a single vote out of 565 members of Congress, for his own budget, tells me something. We need a new mechanic.....

Will somebody pass me a metric crescent wrench please? Nuff said....but you keep going ScotFab....

[MikeGolf]

I love me some JVD. Especially those Bowtie burgers. Looking forward to seeing you at the Gathering this year.
:flag2:

[scottfab]

Well at least you put all of your gracious oopinions into one post, not 4 or 5 in a row.

Yah, I took your lead on that. Usually I like to keep each topic separate so as to not obfuscate the central theme. But then I realized your central theme was generally the same. Nothing Obama does or has done meets with your approval. Fare enough. Just know that not all of us out here agree with that.

As I said, "SINCE and including TRUMAN" there have been only two. That means since WWII.

Correct you are. I did not explain my statement well enough. My point is that two presidents since WWII was not a complete story. The complete story is that 16 have served as commander and chief without military service. And I think you'll see some familiar names that were major contributors to our nation.


John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
John Quincy Adams
Martin Van Buren
James Polk
Millard Fillmore
Grover Cleveland
William Howard Taft
Woodrow Wilson
Warren G. Harding
Calvin Coolidge
Herbert Hoover
Franklin D. Roosevelt
William Jefferson Clinton
Barack Obama


Good for you buddy. If the governemnt is involved, I feel vulnerable not more secure. If you think a 6 year old little girl is a threat to airline security, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't happen to think so.

You are entitled to that opinion as I am mine. As someone who has traveled domestically and internationally quite a bit I feel safe with them there. Searches before 9/11 were comforting. After 9/11 the are even more so.

Did you like it or something? ;)
Well, let's just say when the Pakistani tried to search my youngest at DFW, I didn't piss and moan, I told the truth. I told them if anyone touched my daughter, I would hurt them enough they would remember me for the rest of their lives. There were 6 security people there in a minute or so. In the back room they emptied my daughter's back pack which had already gone through security. Her homework and her Bible was all that was there. It's a parent's thing Scott, maybe something you don't understand?

You certainly had the right to say that and you thereby received the proper attention. When I traveled with my toddlers/preteens I encouraged them to follow the rules and I provided an example for them by my behavior. The example I provided did not require additional security nor a private screening. I did however incur the wrath of one TSA rep upon returning from China by saying something argumentative. I sure wish I hadn't said it. They have a job to do and as even celebrities find our from time to time, you don't piss with them.

It is easy to turn this into the typical piss'n match and blame everyone before for our situation. I don't turn to politics.
If I thought Obamba was the greatest of all greats, the simple fact that he can't get a single vote out of 565 members of Congress, for his own budget, tells me something. We need a new mechanic.....

That I believe in in error. I see a 414 member vote against but only after the "Boner" pushed the measure to the floor prematurely. It was a political ploy. As convenient as it is not to mention that it has nothing to do with the overall record of Obama. Just headlines for the press and an exaggeration to support the anti Obama crusade on this forum.
Is Obama the greatest of all greats as JVD states? Not by me he isn't.
But once again, he is not as bad as some of the rhetoric I've seen from the closet haters would have us believe.


Will somebody pass me a metric crescent wrench please? Nuff said....but you keep going ScotFab....

Nah I'm done. You can have the last "embellishment".
Well unless a new assertion is made that is too far off in the weeds.
I can't even imagine what you'll go through if there is no change in the presidency this year. Man would that sting or what?:dancing

[vandornjim]

I love me some JVD. Especially those Bowtie burgers. Looking forward to seeing you at the Gathering this year.
:flag2:

Sorry Mike. This year we're having "Bamba burgers" (pending Supreme Court approval of course). They were a really "popular" with the GSA gang down in Vegas. They are a special blend of pork ingredients including Guantanamo Bay leaves, North Korean middle finger, Iranian laughing gas, and a special Afghany goat sauce. All of that served "open pockets" on a bed of Chinese noodles, and boasted over a Solyndra powered grill.

All will be served with Bush's Bake Beans and Boston Tea.

They are a deal for only $988 each if you are in the top 1%, or, if you are unemployed for over 3 years, and have given your "fair share", we welcome food stamps.

We're currently seeking non-working, stay at home Mom's to be servers....

:flag:
(And if you don't like the food, we can always blame it on the "beans"....)

[MikeGolf]

Do I have to show my ID to prove who I am? Are you going to have any TSA people working the door? Make sure you have red and blue and green (camouflaged) table clothes so we'll know which group to sit with. Thanks again for hosting it. Enjoyed the side of humor.:dancing

[Eric24]

You guys do realize that without the draft (as it was in my day) the percentage of Americans that do choose to put "their all" on the line for our great country is dwindling. The "Citizen Soldier" is going to be a ghost of the past, in favor of the career soldiers. Personally, I am in favor of a draft. To much has fallen on the shoulders of too few the last 10 years!


I agree with to much has fallen on the current Soldier, and i have continued to see people enlist into the Army at least. I had a 42 year old sign up just so he could do his part for his country. I dont see any issues with people signing up, shoot, now HE is trying to down size the military, so i dont think we need a draft.

I do think people should have to serve for at least a few years, South Korea makes there kids do it as well. I understand that it would be a night mare for the U.S. to start this and that it will never happen but maybe then some people would appreciate this country more.

I was in the Army when they brought people back for Desert Storm, it was ugly, they were out of shape, disgruntle, and most of them turned into a huge LEADERSHIP challenge.

[Eric24]

I've often thought Israel has a great idea.
All must serve in one capacity of another.
I served 4yrs working to make military and shuttle radios at Rockwell .
Not exactly front line but then most grunts that serve
aren't Navy Seal types either.
I had one work for me for 6 yrs. Certainly a different kind
of worker for sure.


Not sure what you mean by, "not exactly front line but then most grunts that serve aren't Navy Seals types either"....?

"I had one work for me for 6 yrs. Certainly a different kind of worker for sure"?

If your saying the only worthy combat Soldier are Navy Seals then we have an issue. If your not then we wont have an issue. There are no more FRONT LINES over there, as a Infantry Soldier, I would like to think that we are the ones fighting the fight, but now days anyone over there will get some action or be near some action. Now, the Infantry Solider or Soldiers attached to Infantry units will get the brunt of the action, we live in the hornets nest, we take it from the bad guys, and we dish it out almost everyday. We dont pick and choose our battles like some units get to, nor do we get to do 3-6 month rotations like most units do.

I appreciate everyone who goes over there and when the dust settles, i dont care what branch your in, I will try to protect you to the fullest.

Just dont say because of what you read, or hear about that Seals are the top dog or do most of the action, again, not sure what you really meant by those sentences but i felt like it was a negative jab at grunts.

[John Boothby]

I was in the Army when they brought people back for Desert Storm, it was ugly, they were out of shape, disgruntle, and most of them turned into a huge LEADERSHIP challenge.

The draft did bring in undesirables. Those can be weeded out. I just think that military service builds character and instills discipline that appears to be lacking in younger people these days. My cousin's grandson was just discharged from the USMC after a tour in Afghanastan. Before he inlisted he was a handful and had no idea what he wanted to do. Now he is focused on a career in psychology and law inforcement. Another kid brought back from the dark side!!:saluting:

By the way, you do want a trooper that is a LITTLE pissed off!! We were a pretty eclectic group!!

[Eric24]

I had the honor of being a Drill Sergeant for 3 years, i saw alot of changes in those 3 years for sure. I had dads even crying saying that could not beleive the change in their son, it was pretty cool seeing the kids come on day 1 and the change in them on the last day.

It i s super hard now days to kick the crappy kids out of the Army, with some good old school changes coming back maybe it will help a little but it is such a drain on the NCO's now days to get someone out. You end up spending all your time escorting dirt bags around and spending what little off time you have off with them.

I totoally understand what your saying about the draft etc..and there will always be a leadership challenge in anything you do.

[John Boothby]

I had 3 DI's in 1965. One was a WWll and Korea vet, one was a Korean vet and the boxing champion of the pacific theater during the Korean conflict. The third was a Philipino who had already been wounded in Vietnam. I respected the hell out of all three!
They were real hardasses, but, everything they said or did was designed to keep you alive in combat!

I imagine today you could not get away with everything they did back then. Might hurt someone's feelings! Like combat wouldn't!

[Eric24]

I was going to say i bet the boxing guy had lots of practice with you all...LOL

It was pretty lame what we could and could not do to them, of course some people took it to far and thats part of the reason basic training is the way it is now.

[scottfab]

Just dont say because of what you read, or hear about that Seals are the top dog or do most of the action, again, not sure what you really meant by those sentences but i felt like it was a negative jab at grunts.

I was referring to "me" as being like a regular grunt in what I was doing.
There are several elite branches of each service I could have compared to. I was just picking oneo. I picked the one I was most familiar with due to the former seal that worked for me.
He was unpretentious, intense and a great problem solver. He impressed the hell out of me.
I am sure that all the services have better training and see more action than Seals. But I do know he saw enough and I know Seal Team 6 saw some recently. It could have been given to a different branch will the same results.

[John Boothby]

I was going to say i bet the boxing guy had lots of practice with you all...LOL

It was pretty lame what we could and could not do to them, of course some people took it to far and thats part of the reason basic training is the way it is now.

Actually, we had very few problems. Most guys didn't want to be there, but they sucked it up.

I was RA (Regular Army) with a 4 year enlistment due to the length of schooling I had to have for the MOS and my security clearance, and I was in the minority. Draftees were US. Don't ask me what that stood for, but they had a 2 year enlistment.

[vandornjim]

January Statistics On Airport Screening From The Department Of Homeland Security:
Terrorists Discovered
0
Transvestites
133
Hernias
1,485
Hemorrhoid Cases
3,172
Enlarged Prostates
8,249
Breast Implants
59,350
Natural Blondes
3


Latest Intel from TSA.....remember, 8.1 BILLION 2012 (estimated!)