Lotus boxer LT-5 Engine

[LGAFF]

Check this out:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/260966267233?item=260966267233&viewitem=&vxp=mtr

[LGAFF]

I don't believe you can use these cams on a V Engine.....any thoughts?

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Cool that they're NOS...if...you can use them in our LT5????

[LGAFF]

The engine was a 3.5 liter....I would the firing points on an LT-5 differ and they could not be used

[USAFPILOT]

Any more info on that engine?

[LGAFF]

The XE project was not public knowledge at
the time. The XE engine technology operates via a proprietary component
mounted between the piston and crank (a crankpin mounted profiled-driver).
The sets of profile drivers replaces each pair of connecting rods and wrist
pins mounted on each V8 crankpin (see the newest photo in the auction add
to view the the XE mechanism model). --- Compared to conventional, XE
technology is smaller, lighter, cheaper, and more efficient (lower BSFC -
higher HP to weight ratio). ---- The XE-1 was built, tested, and proven
during the 1990s (group photo). --- The 9/11 crisis quickly put an end to
development funding (shortly after 9/11, venture capital support dried up
for projects like this). --- Alas, the aftermath of such things - investor
legal actions, law suits, and auto industry negative NIH pressures against
my invention (nightmare syndrome) - crushed any chance of reviving the
original project. --- In the meantime, I've quietly invented a new IC
engine design called the Brackett SB Engine. The new technology makes the
connecting rod engine antique and even the XE obsolete. My new compact
boxer design is well suited for automotive, small aircraft, as well as
large stationary engines used in trains and ships. Hybrid electric is an
excellent automotive candidate. The big question now might be, "will the SB
go into production?" The answer depends on gas prices and funding,
development puts the earliest possible market introduction at least into
2013-14. Significant improvement in fuel economy and relief from foreign
oil may be just around the corner. --- Want to help, write your Senators,
their support is vita because the auto cos won't change without pressure
and the oil cos don't like me because my inventions let you buy less oil.
With great respect, Doug.

[USAFPILOT]

Is it much different than other boxer engines? For example, the Testarossa Flat 12 and the Subaru Boxer 4? I think I read the Ferrari is not a boxer engine, just a flat V-12 or something? What is it about your boxer engines that require less oil and fuel? It looks like a compact design, but I don't think it would fit well between the frame rails of a corvette. What kind of power was it capable of? Are those Heads the same size as LT5 heads? That picture with the piston on the crank is real neat.

[LGAFF]

Cam specs for the items for sale are below, appears exhaust is the same as stock, but intakes are both 252 and not 272/252 split..............................


Lotus Cam specs.
From Billet, heat treated phosphate/nitrided
Intake
Lift 0.390”
Duration (valve a&b) 252˚& 252˚
Exhaust
Lift 0.390”
Duration (valve a&b) 252˚ & 252˚

[Hammer]

Yesterday these cams were $600, must have forgot the ZR-1 tax. LOL

[LGAFF]

yeah they jumped to $2400

[mike100]

But if the rotational relationship/firing order is not like a V8, then they aren't good for anything outside of putting together a surviving prototype boxer engine.

[ZZZZZR1]

Yesterday these cams were $600, must have forgot the ZR-1 tax. LOL


I was thinking the same thing!!!

[Pete]

I was thinking the same thing!!!


Dave,you know who that is?
Is he part of the Registry?

His name is Doug and knows a lot of LT5 history.

Looks like his in New Hampshire.

Pete

[tomtom72]

He is selling head gaskets and I/H and plenum gaskets and exhaust manifold gaskets also. Seems to have three sets of NOS OEM head gaskets and a bunch of I/H and plenum gaskets.

[rbidwell]

The following is from the e-bay ad:

[Yes, they will work in a ZR1 LT5
(same lobe phase timing as the LT5)]

It seems that if that is true, 3 of the cams should work. Stock lift according the the manual is .3898 and these cams are listed as .3900. Would have to get them cheap just in case they ended up being scrap iron.

[LGAFF]

Well bought the cams, hope they are not junk.....

[rbidwell]

I had had known that was you bidding, I would have ran the bid up.....or not. Let us know if they will work, please.

Ron Bidwell

[LGAFF]

I will, sending them off for regrind

[LGAFF]

Well the cams are 93+ dual flats....they do not have the bob weights that LT-5 cams and reluctor on the left exhaust cam does not have the reluctor slot cut out.....difference in ramps from stockers also

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/DSCN4441.jpg

[LGAFF]

these came in the original lotus box, packing and invoice

[efnfast]

So, what do ya do with em Lee?:dontknow:

[LGAFF]

smack myself in the head with them and ask why the hell I bought them...I imagine with an exhaust cam I can have the reluctor cut in......as for the bobs not sure if they are really needed.

[efnfast]

Worth more just the way you bought them. In original packaging and paperwork? Just a thought before you carve them up.

[tomtom72]

smack myself in the head with them and ask why the hell I bought them...I imagine with an exhaust cam I can have the reluctor cut in......as for the bobs not sure if they are really needed.

Then the guy miss-represented the item. He said you could use these cams in an LT5, no? I understand about "let the buyer beware", but the seller has to be honest also, no? Just saying. :o

What about asking Graham B over at LPE?

:cheers:
Tom

[LGAFF]

I think they can still be used, they just need the reluctor notched......I have sent a note over to SGC to see if they do their own or if someone else does them

[LGAFF]

Sent an SOS to Todd P....thought since he had billet cams done he might be able to help...my cam guy might have them also

[XfireZ51]

I agree w emfast. They're historical particularly w the notes and packaging.
Leave them alone. Make a display case for them. Be interesting to pull timing specs off them.

[Jagdpanzer]

Lee,
My understanding purpose of the slot cut in the DS exhaust cam is to tell the ECM where cylinder #1 is for sequencing the fuel injection order.

[LGAFF]

Thanks Phil,

As for historical value....I do not think that applies here these are unused and were part of one persons dream of a boxer engine. They are rellay just billet parts made for a customer

[LGAFF]

Graham Behan e-mailed me and is going to take a look at cams....a Forum member also is helping and said he can notch the reluctor.

[XfireZ51]

Very cool when Graham gets involved.

[LGAFF]

Well I was busy so did not have a chance to look at these pulled them out today and one cyl is 180 off timing on these

[VetteMed]

Well, that sucks, Lee.

[Jagdpanzer]

What a bummer Lee,
Then the ebay seller's claim does not appear to hold true:
"Yes, they will work in a ZR1 LT5 (same lobe phase timing as the LT5)"

Looks like you have a good case of misrepresentation.

[XfireZ51]

Would they work for a flat crank or a swapped 5/7 firing order?

[LGAFF]

funny was just thinking the same thing...

[limey]

Ah come on, how you going to stick this guy with miss representing these cams, Surely this is a case of throwing caution in the wind and hoping for the best. I think if you do hit him with a paypal Item not as described, that's a pretty shity thing, he listed all the specs.

Did you ask him "if they don't fit the LT5 motor as represented will you take them back" If you did, then that's that and send em back for your refund.

[XfireZ51]

funny was just thinking the same thing...

Great minds...

[LGAFF]

Yes, I asked him if they could be used on a stock motor....

and they are listed as Corvette ZR-1 Cams

RARE NEW set of four (4) Corvette ZR1 LT5 NOS Camshafts OEM GM Stillwater Lotus #260966267233

[LGAFF]

Going to talk with Graham.....going to see if there is a way to run these...or if I can find a flat plane crank.

The seller is a great guy, offered a full refund as he thought they were stock LT-5

[LGAFF]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/th_1331551180.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/?action=view&current=1331551180.mp4)

[LGAFF]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/th_1331551174.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/?action=view&current=1331551174.mp4)


I have not viewed these let me know if they are working....vids of the engine

[VetteMed]

Looks like both vids work fine, Lee. Thanks for sharing.

[XfireZ51]

Nice idea for a mid-engine. Low CG.

[LGAFF]

Boxer Firing order
1,4,7,3,8,5,2,6

LT-5
1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2

[USAFPILOT]

In a boxer engine aren't eh cylinder supposed to fire at each other. I always heard that the Ferarri Testarossa Flat 12 was not a true boxer engine, even though all 12 cylinder are horizontally opposed to each other. I think the Subaru motors might be a true boxer design.

Either that or whoever told me that was flat wrong and I believed them.

[LGAFF]

Yes that is true a true boxer is different than a 180 degree engine

[LGAFF]

Well I think these are going back, the firing order would indicate a true boxed engine.....which means it would fire on the same side in consecutive order....a true flat plane would go L-R-L-R....so no chance these are usable.

[Paul Workman]

Boxer Firing order
1,4,7,3,8,5,2,6

LT-5
1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2

Yeah, and then the question of cylinder numbering scheme is to be considered, as it relates to firing order. For example: The firing order of the LSx motors is the same as the modular Ford V8s. But, because the cylinder numbering scheme is different for the two motors, the numerical firing order does not appear to be the same. So, it might be good to know how the cylinders are numbered in order to understand actual firing sequence.

Here's a bit of trivia that might be interesting - wuz to me, at least. In the LS vs. the Ford modular (e.g., current Mustang V8), if you start with the #1 (GM scheme) and follow the firing order and trace the pattern, and do the same starting at the same relative cylinder (Ford's #5 = LSx #1) you'll see the relative firing order is the same, but you wouldn't know that by simply looking at the numerical order.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/LSFordmodularfiringorder.jpg

I have no idea what the numerical scheme differences might be for the boxer, but it might be useful to know to understand the actual firing pattern...I'm just sayin. :cheers:

p.

[LGAFF]

Yeah, I looked into that....only assumption I could make was that it follow the same firing as the Lotus V8s....I sent notes to Graham Behan, Doug Rippie, and a few others trying to see if these could be a GT-1 set up...all seemed eager to help then never got back to me.....so sending them back...bummed

[LGAFF]

Vid showing intak vs stock

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/th_DSCN4457.jpg (http://s134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/?action=view&current=DSCN4457.mp4)

[LGAFF]

Check out the names associated with the engine....I asked who the guys in the video are...

Lee,


Bit of a delay answering your question about who some of the people are, took a bit of remembering.


The people in the group photo are (lt to rt) Me and MARCO's Gerry Gillis, Mike Boerma (Pres), Tony Brakora, Jeff Wood, and Brian Woodward. Gerry and I are in the photo discussing cam timing.


Video of first XE-1 start-up at my lab
I'm the guy in the plaid shirt, my nephew, David Gallant is the kid who checks rpm with a handheld tach, my brother is the clapping audience.


MARCO video in the dyn. cell
In the blue coat is MARCO tech, Jeff Wood, I'm in the upper left corner talking with engine builder, Carl Hinkson (from Maine), and the man in the tan suit who walks in to talk with me is Johnny Caple, President of CART, he is telling me the computer is indicating my prototype is running on its own power and has been calibrated for the BSFC Global Point test. The maiden run produced better BSFC data than the LT5 Global Point. A handful of names are there for the test. Bob Bahre, Nascar Track Owner and Smokey Yunick are both there somewhere but not in this clip. Jerry Stahl made the headers but had conflicting dates and didn't make the test.


During the mid 1980s I had just completed a supercharged prototype engine based on Honda GoldWing heads. A hybrid with a full charge firing stroke every rpm. The exhaust scavenge and air recharge was facilitated by the Eaton tapered screw blower. Fuel was metered by the Honda injectors. John Dodd, General Motors Head of Innovations and F. Gibson Butler, GM Olds Engineer (44 yrs) came out to see that engine tested and took interest in my engine designs. At the time I showed them my design of a new Boxer block with my crank mechanism invention (XE-1). I went to Detroit to meet with David Cole and later Bob Stemple. I was given rights to use the LT5 heads. At that time, Maine Governor McKernan and Senators Mitchell and Cohen began to support my automotive fuel efficiency work as part of adopting "The Clean Air Act". The XE-1 received a DOE grant and Mercury supplied parts via General Motors Joan Schmitt. The engine was completed in 1995 and tested at MARCO (irony, Marco was sold to Lotus at the end of the 1990s).


Sidebar: Gib became a good friend. In the 1940s he worked under Ed Cole (father of the small block engine series). Gib was the inventor of the GM V8 crank balance counterweight system first used on the Olds Rocket 88 V8.


Doug

[LGAFF]

Well the cam return has turned into a saga....The guy apologized and agreed the cams were not as represented. I returned the cams 2 weeks ago, and they have now been in his hands for 10 days. He told me he has an issue with Paypal and someone filed a complaint against him freezing his account. That was a week ago, now I see the guy putting more stuff on Ebay...

I thought this guy was going to step up but now I realize I have been scammed.. ....$543 and nothing in my hand....BS

This is the guys profile...buyer beware, if he comes through I will let you know

[DaveK]

Lee

You should have payment protection through PayPal. You might want to contact them.

Thanks

Dave

[VetteMed]

Well the cam return has turned into a saga....The guy apologized and agreed the cams were not as represented. I returned the cams 2 weeks ago, and they have now been in his hands for 10 days. He told me he has an issue with Paypal and someone filed a complaint against him freezing his account. That was a week ago, now I see the guy putting more stuff on Ebay...

I thought this guy was going to step up but now I realize I have been scammed.. ....$543 and nothing in my hand....BS

This is the guys profile...buyer beware, if he comes through I will let you know

http://myworld.ebay.com/jazzbstrat/?_trksid=p4340.l2559

Lee, if you paid via credit card to paypal, you can still dispute the charge with your CC company...

If bank transfer, then you are at paypal's mercy, not a good place to be as I've found.

[LGAFF]

Well filed a complaint and got my money back ASAP(it will pend until April 5th)....very disappointed, was hoping this would lead to an HOB article from the guy, he obviously is an intelligent guy