Ses light Heibeck Chip and Secondaries Question

[Torchred96]

Okay guys Pardon the newb questions. I have searched but not found specific question answered.

I understand that the ses light prevents the secondary throttle valves from opening....or does it? Is that the case even with the H chip installed or does his chip somehow bypass those trouble routines in the computer? I'm pretty sure it's his basic chip described on his page for the 91 lt5. Does that also mean that the secondary injectors are not going to fire as long as there is an ses light ?

A little history as I understand it from the seller of the car. He told me that he was really unimpressed with the performance of the car and that the power key was broken off in the switch (on or off i dont know). He told me he contacted Marc Haibeck (sorry about the spelling) for a chip. He said that after he put the chip in, he then got an ses light, but the performance was much improved leading him to believe the secondary injectors and throttle valves are opening. I'm pretty sure that the ses light wasn't there before the chip.

I have the paperwork on the chip which says that the default position is full power.

thanks in advance.

sam

[Kevin]

sounds like you may have a vacuum leak

[Torchred96]

I think you are right. Well, in the interest of making this a reliable fix, I'd like to go the elimination of secondaries route when I do the injectors. I've studied the diagrams, and though I think I understand the system enough, it just seems the system is more trouble than anything else. Actuators leaking, not assembled correctly, then the trouble of taking the plenum off every time for a leak. Not to mention the expense of the individual parts, vacuum pump etc. etc. I like the idea to KISS.

Do you know if the chip I have from Mr. Haibeck will allow deleting the system without setting off a code?

thanks
sam

[Kevin]

in order to remove the secondaries you'll need to do quite a bit of work to get everything out....what i plan to do is wire them open and have mark burn me a new chip for $200 to get the car to run on all 16 all the time and wire the power key to be on even if I take it out.

[Torchred96]

ah, I see, all the injectors work together if you have it programmed that way. I think that answers my question.

I really don't plan to reinstall them once removed. I need to do a search on what is required to remove everything completely and the extra work involved. Sounds like taking off the plenum is like opening a can of worms. and all the gremlins of the lt5 seem to be hiding under there. Can't wait to let them all out.

thanks Kevin!

[Kevin]

taking out the secondary throttle plates requires digging into the runners and removing all of the hardwear in there. if you just wire the arms in the full open position and then get the car tuned for them it's 99% the same thing for 1/4 of the money.

pulling the plenum isn't hard and it's a right of passage. Enjoy

[Torchred96]

Gotcha. I'm gonna do a search for the cost issue. I don't want to be rude and not do my own research..

Thanks...and that is a gorgeous car you have!

[mike100]

You might only have one bad part in there if it is a vac leak issue. Might be easier to fix it. You bought a ZR-1, it's 20 years old, you have to remove the plenum-it's a right of passage- everything you need to get at it is under it.

if you have a hand held vacuum pump, you can easily diagnose the whole vacuum circuit once the plenum is off.

The trouble codes can be brought up on the instrument display- even easier than counting the flashing check-engine-light diagnostic that other GM cars had.

[Kevin]

Thanks...and that is a gorgeous car you have!

thanks!

[Torchred96]

Mike, even though I now understand much (more than I did before) of how the secondary system works (thanks to this forum), it seems like it is more expensive and problematic than it's worth, aside from the fact that it is cool and very interesting.

In my case, I have a bad pump and 132k miles on all the parts in there..I'm guessing that if they aren't bad yet, they are going to be soon, which means I will soon be pulling the plenum again. I'm fairly certain it is a simple matter of troubleshooting the system once it is off, but why not take care of the issue once and for all and build in more reliability in the process? No?

I'm looking at doing the chains soon too since I don't have any maintenance history of the car...so, these things are going to add up fast.

I'm not complainin mind you, just sayin

:cheers:

[Kevin]

the chains should be good to 250k+. if you want to talk about the secondary system off line let me know and I'll pm you my phone number, as I'm doing research on what I want to do with it next year.

[Torchred96]

Kevin that is good news there. I was thinking I was already on borrowed time with the chains. It's hard to tell, but the car doesn't appear to have been beat on, it drives as tight as my 96 did with far fewer miles.

Please do Pm me your number. I will give you a call tomorrow if you don't mind.

Thanks again

sam

[GOLDCYLON]

Okay guys Pardon the newb questions. I have searched but not found specific question answered.

I understand that the ses light prevents the secondary throttle valves from opening....or does it? Yes that is correct


Is that the case even with the H chip installed or does his chip somehow bypass those trouble routines in the computer? I'm pretty sure it's his basic chip described on his page for the 91 lt5. Does that also mean that the secondary injectors are not going to fire as long as there is an ses light ?

im not sure if the key can be bypassed on a 90 model at the PROM level. I think the 90 can be bypassed at the key level only. It can at the PROM level at the 91-95. reguardless of the PROM if the SES lamp is lit the secondaries will not engage

A little history as I understand it from the seller of the car. He told me that he was really unimpressed with the performance of the car and that the power key was broken off in the switch (on or off i dont know). He told me he contacted Marc Haibeck (sorry about the spelling) for a chip. He said that after he put the chip in, he then got an ses light, but the performance was much improved leading him to believe the secondary injectors and throttle valves are opening. I'm pretty sure that the ses light wasn't there before the chip.

I have the paperwork on the chip which says that the default position is full power.

What year is your car?Your profile is not filled out but your refer to a 91 on Hiabecks site?

thanks in advance.

sam[/QUOTE]

[Torchred96]

Ok, took care of my profile. Is there any way to change the t in torchred96 to a capital T? I was kind of in a hurry when I filled it out initially.

The car is a 91, #1581 and born 04/03/91

That's good news, because I'm pretty impressed with the power even with the stumble and the secondaries not opening.

Sorry about the confusion with the Haibeck chip. I bought this car from a dealer in Miami, Fl. He told me he initially planned to keep the car and so purchased a chip after speaking with Mr. Haibech regarding the lack of power and the broken power switch. I think he (the dealer) found that the power switch wasn't the only issue causing the lack of power and decided to unload the car before putting too much money into it.

However, the dealer did tell me that the chip helped a bunch, and that he (dealer) believed that the secondaries were now opening. I had my doubts that they were opening, but then again, it was missing/stumbling too so I thought that could have been the reason for the lack of performance. Mind you, there was no lack of disclosure on the dealer's part, he's was very up-front with me and there were no real surprises...okay, the knock surprised me a bit, But he may not have ever heard it since it doesn't do it all the time.

Do I understand correctly that the codes may be pulled without pulling down the kick panel on the drivers side?

[Kevin]

there's a chance, and I'm not sure this will work, but you maybe able to take the power key switch apart and remove the broken key from it.

[Kevin]

Do I understand correctly that the codes may be pulled without pulling down the kick panel on the drivers side?
yes there's a obd1 port either in or just under the hush panel under the wheel. I'm not exactly sure where it is as i haven't used it in years

[Torchred96]

Hadn't even thought about trying to retrieve the key and attempt to make it useful. Regarding the hush panel, yeah, I misunderstood a reply that said you can get the code right from the dash.

What am I still doing awake..I'm hooked. Got to get up at 4:30!!

Good nite all and thanks for the patience!

[mike100]

Hadn't even thought about trying to retrieve the key and attempt to make it useful. Regarding the hush panel, yeah, I misunderstood a reply that said you can get the code right from the dash.

What am I still doing awake..I'm hooked. Got to get up at 4:30!!

Good nite all and thanks for the patience!

Here's a link...go 1/2 way down the page for the procedure on how to enter diagnostics to get the error codes to display on your speedo display. The other stuff is for earlier years.

http://www.corvettebuyers.com/c4vettes/codes.htm

[mike100]

The ALDL diagnostic plug is down just tucked to the back of the knee bolster where your right knee would be near the console. You'll need a light and a maybe your floormat out on the ground to drop a knee on the street because you'll need to get low to reach it.

[Paul Workman]

ah, I see, all the injectors work together if you have it programmed that way. I think that answers my question.

I really don't plan to reinstall them once removed. I need to do a search on what is required to remove everything completely and the extra work involved. Sounds like taking off the plenum is like opening a can of worms. and all the gremlins of the lt5 seem to be hiding under there. Can't wait to let them all out.

thanks Kevin!

Removing the secondaries completely is NOT a big deal/hard to do. And, you remove an impediment to air flow - prolly not a big deal until the heads are also ported, but adds a bit of incentive for completing the job, IMO.

To remove the throttle rods and bearing, you just place a socket** over the bearing boss and place a fender washer over the socket to make a make-shift bearing/rod puller. Then grease the threads on the throttle rod and screw the throttle rod nut down onto the washer and continue screwing it down and the bearing and rod come out together. (Note: You'll have to remove the air breather box to get to the front throttle bearings/rods, so you'll need a gasket for that air box (Jerry's Gaskets has 'em).

Once the bearings are removed you'll need the Dorman #555-108 plug to fill the hole. I used a little JB Weld on the plugs to provide an abosolute seal before tapping them in using a 3/8" socket as a driver.

All of the vacuum harness, the check valves, the reservoir, actuators, guide plates...alla that comes outta there, leaving only the MAP sensor (under the ECM on a 90, but not sure where on the 91+ MY LT5s) connected. Marc's calibration programs the ECM to turn on the secondaries at above 1% throttle, and to accept atmopheric air pressure as = OK, far as the MAP signal goes.

FWIW, Marc will provide the chip to support the secondary removal, but if asked whether or not he recommends removing the secondaries, he has said many times that unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise, he does not recommend removing them. Hard to argue with Marc, but considering OBD-I circumstances in IL, I respectfully disagree...and LUV the improved throttle response and the convenience of NEVER having to fuss with all that crap again!! (Besides...if anyone has access to the parts to keep that overly complicated system alive, Marc does. For the rest of us, fixing a secondary problem is a PIA cuz the parts are NOT on some shelf in every ZR-1 driver's garage.;))

P.

PS

Might be a good time to remove the bolts from the IHs and put a bit of Blue LockTite on the threads before torquing them down (to 19 ft #). My first "plenum dive" found some of the bolts were little more than finger tight! Use the same LT on the plenum bolts too. Torque the plenum, starting at the center accross and work a little at a time in a spiral circle toward the extemedy bolts. Repete until torque is achieved. As an added precaution, I use a bit of that (nasty) blue Permatex sealer between the IH and the gasket on the IH side only. Before I place the gasket on the IHs, I spray the plenum side of the gasket with silicone lube spray to facilitate easy plenum removal w/o trashing the gasket every time. Don't spray silicone spray down the runners, or you'll run the risk of trahing an 02 sensor...[argh!]

p.

[QB93Z]

If you have a misfire or stumble problem you may want to investigate the injectors. If they are original 1991 injectors they should be replaced. When you have the plenum off, measure the resistance of each injector.

BTW, I fixed the "T" in your user ID.

Jim

[Torchred96]

Jim, thanks for you input and fixing my T :) Those injectors are just going to be replaced. I don't really see the point of checking them if they have that kind of mileage on them. right? I can then forget about them for a good while. Edit: I understand that it's shotgunning the problem, but what I mean is, I don't have any history on the car and I don't want to be thinking every time I hear a stumble that I shuddah when i couldah..

Kevin mentioned that I might be able to remove the broken key, so I gave it a try and succeeded. I don't know why, but it was a plastic flat key with no teeth, only a groove on both sides. So, I guess I now need to find another key. Thank you Kevin!..saved me a couple hundred there from what I see on ebay. OR, will I even need it with the chip...

Paul, thank you for that in depth response:
Okay, when I had the Haibeck chip in, I would get a ses light. I still haven't pulled the codes as I've been doing some odd jobs on the car. e.g. took out the key from the valet switch, fixed antenna and I took out the Haibeck chip with the intention of sending it back to him for a recalibration with the secondaries removed. I put the original prom back in (in the meantime) and now have no ses light...maybe it takes a while to resurface. Still have the stumble and lack of power..I'm assuming that the stumble is the injectors and will tackle that soon.

Can I keep the power key operational with the haibeck chip when the secondary throttle valves are removed or does that chip just bypass it? My thoughts are that in the normal power mode only eight injectors work and in the full power mode, all 16 will work all of the time...Am I off base here? I like that little switch. Makes the car unique-er :)


I'd like to do this all at once, injectors, porting plenum and IH's and elimination of secondary throttle valves et al and chip. I got the car cheap enough and it was taken care of very well as far as I can tell. I'd like to continue the care, only make it more reliable/powerful in the process.


sorry for the rambling, but this car has me going nuts....in a very good way. Love to talk about it, look at it, fondle it...etc etc. Well, I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir though.

thank you

[Kevin]

if you want the car to default to on you can get a chip burned to do so. It sounds like someone used the emergency door key in your power key switch and it broke off. With the key on you run on 8 injectors until you hit ~3,000 rpm's then everything wakes up, Mark's chip, I think, defaults to on but you can use the key to turn it off. If you still want to talk about the secondaries feel free to call me.

[Paul Workman]

With the key on you run on 8 injectors until you hit ~3,000 rpm's then everything wakes up, Mark's chip, I think, defaults to on but you can use the key to turn it off. If you still want to talk about the secondaries feel free to call me.

Well, not a zackly...

Marc's calibration will default 91-95s to FULL POWER for running sans secondaries. Only at idle does it run on primary injectors. Soon as you go to 1% or more throttle, the secondaries come on and the dwell time is adjusted such that twinned the injectors provide proper fuel for closed loop operation.

I'm not sure on a 91-95 if Marc's sans secondary program will even allow you to switch back to "NORMAL" power setting. This is due to the fact the fueling calibration depends on both injectors operating and (on a 90 for sure) if for any reason the secondary injectors shut off (e.g., a sudden SES light) the secondaries shut off and the mixture goes waaaay lean! When that happens, you're instantly in limp home mode. So, even if you could switch back to NORMAL (which you can on a 90 - a no-no if running w/o secondaries), you wouldn't want to if you could. (Something tells me if it is possible to lock it out of NORMAL that he prolly does that for you. Maybe he'll jump in and clarify his setup a bit more.)

And, since the secondaries are on all the time except at idle, the 3k threshold for secondary opening (one point along a the throttle position curve) does not apply.

P.

[ugo85r]

Hi,i have a problem with heibeck chip, i remove secondary and change injector ,secondary fuel pump,fuel filter,fuel pressure regulator, test all sensor (map-vacum-oil temp-cts),i test 2 secondary solid state relay,i change ECM and o2 sensor...but i always got a code 61 and intermitent code 55.Fuel pressure is ok.i'm going to change spark plugs wire and spark plug !!! i'm french(exuse me for my bad english !), and nobody know zr1....is somebody have an idea ???I do not know any more what to look.
Thank

[Torchred96]

ugo, I can't be of much help. Although I took my Haibeck chip out and the codes went away, my car had injector issues, secondary issues etc etc etc.. I sent the chip back to Marc for some additional programming for the secondary delete and a few other things and explained what was happening. Marc put the chip in another zr1 he had in the shop just to be sure it wasn't the cause of my problem.

I havent put the chip back in as I am waiting to get the gremlins taken care of first.
Im sure someone here will fix u up. good luck.

[Kevin]

Hi,i have a problem with heibeck chip, i remove secondary and change injector ,secondary fuel pump,fuel filter,fuel pressure regulator, test all sensor (map-vacum-oil temp-cts),i test 2 secondary solid state relay,i change ECM and o2 sensor...but i always got a code 61 and intermitent code 55.Fuel pressure is ok.i'm going to change spark plugs wire and spark plug !!! i'm french(exuse me for my bad english !), and nobody know zr1....is somebody have an idea ???I do not know any more what to look.
Thank

have you contacted mark?

[Marc Haibeck]

If you are using my chip with the modification to the chip to remove the control of the secondaries, the secondary port throttles need to be removed or mechanically propped open. Also the vacuum line to the secondary vacuum sensor must be removed. If the vacuum line is connected, a code 61 will set when the main throttle is opened past idle. The secondary vacuum sensor on 1990 to 1992 cars is located under the bracket that holds the ECM.

If the car is driven under load with a Check Engine light on. The engine will run lean and set a code 55 because the secondary fuel injectors are locked out.

If you want to work around a broken valet key, all that you need is my basic performance calibration chip. It sets the Full Power mode on by default when the car is started.

Best of luck.

[ugo85r]

I remove vacum line and let sensor to atmosphere and i forced secondary open.
Ok i understand for code 55.
I think the valet key is good ( i look on the tech1).But i will test tomorow.
Thank for your answers !

[ugo85r]

If you are using my chip with the modification to the chip to remove the control of the secondaries, the secondary port throttles need to be removed or mechanically propped open. Also the vacuum line to the secondary vacuum sensor must be removed. If the vacuum line is connected, a code 61 will set when the main throttle is opened past idle. The secondary vacuum sensor on 1990 to 1992 cars is located under the bracket that holds the ECM.

If the car is driven under load with a Check Engine light on. The engine will run lean and set a code 55 because the secondary fuel injectors are locked out.

If you want to work around a broken valet key, all that you need is my basic performance calibration chip. It sets the Full Power mode on by default when the car is started.

Best of luck.

so i have a bad one information which block the passage in full power ?
if i understand with this chip the car is in full power all the time ? even if one of parameter too have the full power is bad ?

[XfireZ51]

so i have a bad one information which block the passage in full power ?
if i understand with this chip the car is in full power all the time ? even if one of parameter too have the full power is bad ?

ugo,

With the secondary delete option as Marc does it, you are always on full power. No other option. The parameters that would disable FULL POWER on a stock motor should be eliminated ie Not enough vacuum etc. In fact Marc programs it so that you would not get a code for insufficient vacuum. If you have a bad injector or insufficient fuel, you'll get a lean code 61. In that instance, sometimes the SES light will flicker and not be a "hard code". No matter you don't want to run the car very long.
As an FYI, I originally removed throttle plates and tie-wrapped the secondaries open. I also installed a "dummy plug" on the secondary MAP sensor. ECM was happy.

[ugo85r]

I had a bfxbg for 91 ,i remove secondarie,change injector,fuel pressure regulator,fuel filter,fuel pump,spark plug and wire, oil temperature sensor,o2 sensor,ECM .I test MAP - coolant sensor- knock sensor, i looking for restricted air flow, i test the harness of injector and every sensor inspect connector !!! Today i drive with a fuel pressure gauge atach to windshield, it's varie about 40-50 psi....normal! but no full power and always code 61 and 55 !!!!:mad::mad::mad: i'm going to burn this car!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

[BOB HDZ]

On my 90 z, I bypass the full power key to always on! I do this by splicing a wire into the #9 blue & white wire in the green micro pack in the ecm, which is the hot wire for the full power key. Then I ground it to the frame. This way I did not have to mess with the key! loose key! bad key! and the light is always on!!!

[Marc Haibeck]

My performance calibration chip BFXBG enables the Full Power mode when the engine starts. The green light next to the Full Power key will go on when the car is started.

If the engine control system gets an error that sets the Check Engine indicator on, the system will not operate the secondary port throttles even if the green full power light is on. The fault that causes the check engine must be corrected to operate the secondary ports and get full power.

When does the check engine light go on? If it goes on what is the error code?

[Marc Haibeck]

If you are using a chip labeled as BFXBG the secondary port throttles must be working normally. If there is a low or high vacuum fault in the secondary control system the engine will get a Check Engine code 61 when the main throttle is opened enough to trigger the secondary ports.

The chip needs several modifications to run without secondary port throttles. If the chip has been modified to run without secondary port control it will be labled as BFXBGxx. Where xx are the inititals of the name of the person that purchased the chip.

[ugo85r]

I think the problem is.......me !
I don't understand (i'm french...) how work the chip bfxbg when i buy it:o I don't have the good version for run without secondarie !!!!!
I can 't tell you the reference i'v got today,but i look for tomorrow.

[ugo85r]

My performance calibration chip BFXBG enables the Full Power mode when the engine starts. The green light next to the Full Power key will go on when the car is started.

If the engine control system gets an error that sets the Check Engine indicator on, the system will not operate the secondary port throttles even if the green full power light is on. The fault that causes the check engine must be corrected to operate the secondary ports and get full power.

When does the check engine light go on? If it goes on what is the error code?
With no trouble code store (i erase before with tech1) ,valet key in full code 61 and 55 come. No cut out.Some week before i got a litle misses at 5000 rpm,but now run "normaly"

[ugo85r]

If you are using a chip labeled as BFXBG the secondary port throttles must be working normally. If there is a low or high vacuum fault in the secondary control system the engine will get a Check Engine code 61 when the main throttle is opened enough to trigger the secondary ports.

The chip needs several modifications to run without secondary port throttles. If the chip has been modified to run without secondary port control it will be labled as BFXBGxx. Where xx are the inititals of the name of the person that purchased the chip.
thank mark ! Saddened to have made you waste time :o
I will contact you on your web site....

[ugo85r]

:dancing Marc modified the program of my chip and now......my z run very very well !!!
Marc :saluting: