ECM CODE 61

[gorgeousgeorge]

I finally got the ECM CODE 61 with the method once Bob Saveland shown me(ALDL diagnostic port jumping) and my LT5 engine speed is limited to just 3000 rpm.

I have read the shop manual and now I understand that the CODE 61 refers to "Secondary Port Throttle Valve System". NOT a tiny work to fix..

I am suspecting "Secondary Port Throttle Valve Solenoid" failure or "Electric Vacuum Pump" failure. How would you think about this trouble? Is there any other cause concerning CODE 61?

Thanks in advance.

Yoshifumi Honda
91 Z
Nagoya, Japan

[XfireZ51]

GG,

The ECM is getting a vacuum signal that is below operational for the secondaries to either open or stay open. Turn the ignition ON and see if the secondary vacuum pump is operating. If it contnues to run, then you have a vacuum leak likely under the plenum. You are limited to 3000rpm when secondaries throttle is not operating because ECM will not allow secondary injectors to turn ON.

[gorgeousgeorge]

Z51JEFF, XfireZ51,

Thank you for your replies.
I inspected my car this morning with the ignition ON and engine OFF. The electric vacuum pump (located under the passenger side headlight) were winding loudly, and IT NEVER STOP until ignition key being off.

It is most likely I have some vacuum leakage under the plenum. Removing prenum is not easy for me but I have to go ahead with this issue.. I will keep reporting about this trouble.

By the way Z51JEFF, what is P.M.?

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

[VetteMed]

P.M. is Private Message.

[gorgeousgeorge]

VetteMed,

Thanks:)

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

[Demps]

Trace the hose with a flashlight under the plenum from the pump. You may see it off.

Another trick is to turn the key again. With the pump running, pull the drivers vacuum line in plenum between 3/5 and Plug with your finger. Does pump stop? Yes check valve is bad. Put vacuum check valve in the connection and a small piece of gas hose to mate to the plenum nipple until you can get under plenum.
Ted

[gorgeousgeorge]

Ted,

Thank you for your reply. I will look for lose vacuum hose connection.

About another trick you told to "pull the drivers vacuum line in plenum between 3/5...".

http://www.zr1.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=862

Does 3/5 mean cylinder#? Is the hose you mean the red circled hose in the picture above?
Does the check valve exist behind the nipple of a plenum?
Does your trick means that add another check valve in line if the original check valve is bad, so that I can fix this problem without removing plenum?

Sorry for disturbing you. I am relatively new to the ZR-1 world and I sometimes do misread English. That?s why I ask this to you:)

http://www.zr1.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=863

By the way, do I have to check the line of RH, between 4 and 6?

Thank you.

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

[Paul Workman]

Ted,

Thank you for your reply. I will look for lose vacuum hose connection.

About another trick you told to "pull the drivers vacuum line in plenum between 3/5...".

http://www.zr1.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=862

Does 3/5 mean cylinder#? Is the hose you mean the red circled hose in the picture above?
Does the check valve exist behind the nipple of a plenum?
Does your trick means that add another check valve in line if the original check valve is bad, so that I can fix this problem without removing plenum?

Sorry for disturbing you. I am relatively new to the ZR-1 world and I sometimes do misread English. That?s why I ask this to you:)

http://www.zr1.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=863

By the way, do I have to check the line of RH, between 4 and 6?

Thank you.

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan


Here is a picture to show the secondary vacuum system. From the picture you will see that the vacuum line between #4 and #6 on the passenger side is not part of the secondary system.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/plenumvacuumcircuitsLT5Large.jpg

I would start by checking the vacuum pump first by pulling apart the vacuum connection on the line between the vacuum pump and the plenum. With the pump running, place your thumb over the end of the line and see if the pump stops. If it does, then the pump is working correctly.
Next step is what Demps suggested. If, as he said, the pump continues to run, then there is a check valve problem, or maybe a connection loose? At that point, removing the plenum is your only option. (Removing the plenum sounds a lot more difficult than it is! It is really quite easy.)

Let us know what you find, and we'll continue to troubleshoot.

P.

[Demps]

Paul's picture and explanation are great.

If you plug the drivers hose (one you circled) and the pump stops, the check valve is bad. You can put one in-line at that location until you can remove the plenum.

This may help the code 61 and can keep vacuum in the system if the check valve is the only thing bad.
Ted

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Yoshifumi-san,

I have my household goods arriving tomorrow with all my tools. We can pull your plenum and do the work with no problems. I have everything from all the gaskets, etc. that are need with addtional spare parts. I'm not sure if you can drive to Yokohama, but depending on how soon you need to fix this I can make the 2 1/2 (according to google anyway?) hour trip to Nagoya. I go to Korea in a few weeks so I'll send you and email and we can talk about this over the weekend on Sunday. On Friday and Saturday I will be at the Navy base in Yokosuka to install all the emissions back on my Z.

Matane.

Craig

[secondchance]

Yoshifumi-san,

I have my household goods arriving tomorrow with all my tools. We can pull your plenum and do the work with no problems. I have everything from all the gaskets, etc. that are need with addtional spare parts. I'm not sure if you can drive to Yokohama, but depending on how soon you need to fix this I can make the 2 1/2 (according to google anyway?) hour trip to Nagoya. I go to Korea in a few weeks so I'll send you and email and we can talk about this over the weekend on Sunday. On Friday and Saturday I will be at the Navy base in Yokosuka to install all the emissions back on my Z.

Matane.

Craig

Hey, Craig,

Starting a JAZOO?
Which part of Korea are you going to? Yong-san? Pyong-taek?

[gorgeousgeorge]

Paul,
Thank you for your sharing the picture about the vacuum system. I understood why I should check drivers side only. I will follow your procedure and diagnose the symptom step by step.

Ted,
I hope the check valve is one and only thing that is bad in the system;)

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Hey, Craig,

Starting a JAZOO?
Which part of Korea are you going to? Yong-san? Pyong-taek?

Hey Jun,

Just offering up some help if desired and that would be cool to have a JAZOO.

I will be in Seoul (Yong-san); staying and the famous Dragon Hill Lodge on the base. It should be a nice time, but only 4 days.....enough time to get into trouble? :dancing

[gorgeousgeorge]

Craig-san,

Thank you for your kind proposal concerning my Z. But the distance between Yokohama and Nagoya would be farther than your expectation. I would be very happy if I could get your advice and your deep knowledge on this issue. If I get into maze and have nothing to do, I will have my Z being on a carrier car and will rush to Yokohama needing for your help:-D

Actually, I am interested in what related parts are to replace when I have to remove the plenum, such as gaskets, vacuum pipes etc.. but I will begin with check valve inspection.

Talk to you soon:-D

Yoshifumi Honda
91 ZR-1
Nagoya, Japan

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Craig-san,

Thank you for your kind proposal concerning my Z. But the distance between Yokohama and Nagoya would be farther than your expectation. I would be very happy if I could get your advice and your deep knowledge on this issue. If I get into maze and have nothing to do, I will have my Z being on a carrier car and will rush to Yokohama needing for your help:-D

Actually, I am interested in what related parts are to replace when I have to remove the plenum, such as gaskets, vacuum pipes etc.. but I will begin with check valve inspection.

Talk to you soon:-D

Yoshifumi Honda
91 ZR-1
Nagoya, Japan


Ohayo Yoshifumi-san,

I really don't mind and I know that it is probably closer to 4 hours and let's add in my getting lost. I want to explore Japan and woud stay in a hotel travel overnight, but understand and you might be okay on your own.

No one can explain this better than Rob from the Corvette Action Center:

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/c4-corvette-zr-1/14272-1990-1995-zr-1-secondary-port-vacuum-diagnosis.html

I will see what I have in stock as I did not bring all my parts with me, but it arrives today. I don't know how I will fit everything into this smaller Japanese home compared to my small Hawaiian home. I mean small by US standards.

I have a video from Marc Haibeck that will help you with the plenum pull and some great details. He explains very slowly so no problem for you and I can loan that to you too as well as any of the special tools too including vacuum tester. I had the same problem years ago and just replaced everything at the time for years of trouble free secondary port system.

We'll keep in touch by email or phone and I'll send you the details.

Take care and best wishes.

Craig

[Paul Workman]

Paul,
Thank you for your sharing the picture about the vacuum system. I understood why I should check drivers side only. I will follow your procedure and diagnose the symptom step by step.

Ted,
I hope the check valve is one and only thing that is bad in the system;)

I'm not familiar with the laws in Japan, but eliminating the secondaries and running on all 16 injectors might be a good option. Many of us are running without the secondary throttle system and are liking it very much.

Lucky you ran into Craig over there close to you. He's recently just rebuilt his LT5 and it is all fresh in his memories!

P.

[HAWAIIZR-1]

I'm not familiar with the laws in Japan, but eliminating the secondaries and running on all 16 injectors might be a good option. Many of us are running without the secondary throttle system and are liking it very much.

Lucky you ran into Craig over there close to you. He's recently just rebuilt his LT5 and it is all fresh in his memories!

P.

Thanks for the thoughts Paul. Too bad my memory last only for a few months max........lol. I'm about to find out about emissions laws and testing myself soon enough.

[gorgeousgeorge]

Hi.

I tested the electric vacuum pump this morning and the pump seems to be working correctly.

While the pump running constantly, I pulled apart the vacuum connection on the line between the pump and the plenum, and plugged the hose of the pump side with my finger. The pump stopped.

But,after reconnecting the hose, I pulled the driver side vacuum hose which comes from the plenum(between cyl. #3 and #4), and plugged the end of the hose. THE PUMP DOES NOT STOP.

There should be some leak or worn parts under the plenum and I think it?s time to remove it:)

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

[Demps]

You are correct. You may be able to see a bad connection with a flashlight. The plenum pull is not that complicated but you will need good gaskets to reassemble. Sounds like Craig is your quickest and best bet. He is VERY capable and you should use his help the first time.

Let me know if you need something

Ted

[gorgeousgeorge]

Craig-san,

http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/forums/c4-corvette-zr-1/14272-1990-1995-zr-1-secondary-port-vacuum-diagnosis.html

Thank you for your sharing the interesting link above. I have been at my office from 8:00 a.m. and not worked yet this morning because I was too busy to read through the article:-D

My friend mechanic has a handheld vacuum pump and we will try to inspect vacuum circuit for leaks or worn parts, including valve actuator, vacuum reservoir and vacuum solenoid.

I will let you know the detail here or by e-mail and would like to talk with you about which parts to replace.

Thank you.

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Ted,

Thanks for the vote of confidence and I'm always willing to learn so another plenum pull will be great.

Yoshifumi-san,

Don't get fired from your job.........lol.

I can send you the DVD for the plenum pull since I might not be able to get to you in the next week. It was crazy to have all this household goods today and I am exhausted from all day of this and can barely walk around all this stuff. I did find the DVD for plenum pull though.

I'll get in touch by email.

Take care.

Craig

[secondchance]

Hey Jun,

Just offering up some help if desired and that would be cool to have a JAZOO.

I will be in Seoul (Yong-san); staying and the famous Dragon Hill Lodge on the base. It should be a nice time, but only 4 days.....enough time to get into trouble? :dancing

What trouble?!
Those who love fast cars tends to love .....

[HAWAIIZR-1]

What trouble?!
Those who love fast cars tends to love .....

You're too much Jun. Is there such a thing as clean and fast?

[jrd1990zr1]

I had a similar situation about a month ago. If you follow the main vacuum line where it goes under the plenum it may have come out of one of the fittings. My main vacuum line came out of the tee. With a lot of patience, long nose pliers and one of those tools to pick parts from hard to reach areas I was able to fix the connection with out removing the plenum.

Don't forget even once fixed you need to disconnect the battery for at least 30 seconds to clear the code.

:cheers:

[gorgeousgeorge]

jrd1990zr1,

Thank you for your sharing your experience. I will look for the loose connection with flashlight this weekend before pulling the plenum.

My concern is that the patience required for such kind of work may cause backache.. :)

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

[GOLDCYLON]

my code 61 was a bad secondary actuator under the plenum and a broken secondaries rod. This problem will require a plenum pull and if Craig is offering to help that may be the way forward for you. The problem with the code 61 is that its a defalut problem code on the entire secondary system. This means everything from a vacumm leak, Secondary pump air problem, Bad check valve and bad secondary actuators (2ea) are all suspect... To include all the linkages and under plenum vacumm hard lines are all in play.

As suggested above I also suggest you get new plenum gaskets on hand before you start the plenum pull. This would be a great time to treat this as a project. I would order new plug wires, plugs, potentially coils etc. This is an oppourtunity do clean out the galley ares (Which gets plugged) etc.

http://jerrysgaskets.com would be a good start for the gaskets you will need.

Good luck. GC

[XfireZ51]

my code 61 was a bad secondary actuator under the plenum and a broken secondaries rod. This problem will require a plenum pull and if Craig is offering to help that may be the way forward for you. The problem with the code 61 is that its a defalut problem code on the entire secondary system. This means everything from a vacumm leak, Secondary pump air problem, Bad check valve and bad secondary actuators (2ea) are all suspect... To include all the linkages and under plenum vacumm hard lines are all in play.

As suggested above I also suggest you get new plenum gaskets on hand before you start the plenum pull. This would be a great time to treat this as a project. I would order new plug wires, plugs, potentially coils etc. This is an oppourtunity do clean out the galley ares (Which gets plugged) etc.

http://jerrysgaskets.com would be a good start for the gaskets you will need.

Good luck. GC

Absolutely agree. If you haven't been under there for a while, you are better off simply replacing everything while there. That includes pulling the starter and cleaning out the drain, possibly even rebuilding starter solenoid.
My recommendations are:

Accel Injectors
MSD Coil Packs
MSD 8.5mm Wire set
Put thin layer of clear silicone on all vacuum connections
Maybe pull Ignition Module, clean then re-do heat sink grease
Clean valley drain pipe
Tighten oil baffle bolts

[Paul Workman]

Absolutely agree. If you haven't been under there for a while, you are better off simply replacing everything while there. That includes pulling the starter and cleaning out the drain, possibly even rebuilding starter solenoid.
My recommendations are:

Accel Injectors
MSD Coil Packs
MSD 8.5mm Wire set
Put thin layer of clear silicone on all vacuum connections
Maybe pull Ignition Module, clean then re-do heat sink grease
Clean valley drain pipe
Tighten oil baffle bolts

:iamwithst

Only he ain't stoopid...unless talking politics, :sign10: THEN watch out!:D

[HAWAIIZR-1]

ほんだーさん、

I agree with a so called tune up/clean up with everything under the plenum as suggested. Not a difficult job as it seems and my better half was not able to ship the video yesterday. She was busy with unpacking boxes so we can move about the house after delivery on Thurs. If she cannot ship it today, it will be Monday to your office address.

You will want to lubricate the linkages and zip tie all the connections of vacuum too in addition. If you don't have the history and keeping it for a long time it will be well worth it to do all the preventive maintenance. I have a new set of FIC injectors if you decide to go that far and replace all your injectors while you are at it. My offer to come over is still there after you decide what you want to do and when.

We can talk more by phone on Sunday and I'm looking forward to talking to you again.

がんばって。

またね。


Craig

[gorgeousgeorge]

GOLDCYLON, XfireZ51,

Thank you for your inputs.
I think it may be better for me to take this problem as a kind of project, not just a secondary system trouble. I?m considering what parts to be replaced other than the secondary?s parts. It will depend on the status of the parts, maintenance history and, of course, my budget:o

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

[gorgeousgeorge]

Craig-san,

No problem for delay of the DVD to come. As I wrote in my previous post, I think I should take this trouble fix as a kind of project and I'm not in a hurry.

I would appreciate your kindness VERY VERY VERY MUCH! Please tell your wife that I am very sorry for disturbing her while she's been very busy.

Hope your "Syaken" go well.

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Craig-san,

No problem for delay of the DVD to come. As I wrote in my previous post, I think I should take this trouble fix as a kind of project and I'm not in a hurry.

I would appreciate your kindness VERY VERY VERY MUCH! Please tell your wife that I am very sorry for disturbing her while she's been very busy.

Hope your "Syaken" go well.

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

Yoshifumi-san,

The DVD was shipped today; you will have it by tomorrow. You're welcome and no problem, she did not mind and had to take a break from unpacking and get snacks from the convenience store anyway. You might as well do it right when you do it and take your time.

I have a few issues to deal with after installing the A.I.R. system back on.

Take care,

Craig

[gorgeousgeorge]

Hi.

The plenum was pulled this evening by my friend mechanic(and me as an assistant).

http://www.zr1.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=873

There were no loose connections, so we inspected the vacuum lines for leaks, and now I think the worn parts were detected.

(1)Bad Secondary Port Vacuum Actuator
The actuator of LH cannot hold the vacuum and the link (i.e. secondary valve) close immediately, while the one of RH can hold the vacuum as seen in the picture below and the link stays open.

http://www.zr1.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=871

(2)Bad Secondary Port Control Solenoid
My friend mechanic plugged one hole of the solenoid then connected the other hole to the handheld vacuum pump as seen in the picture, and it can hold no vacuum. The gauge decreases immediately.

http://www.zr1.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=872

This is a quick post. I have to determine what parts to replace.



AND A NEW PROBLEM?
http://www.zr1.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=870

When my friend pulled one hose to the EGR solenoid(?), some particles fall down from inside the hose. It seems that the particle come from a charcoal canister... How do I treat this?

http://www.zr1.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=874

Thank you.

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

[GOLDCYLON]

That is Charcoal from your rear emissions vapor canister. You need a replacement. Vettmed posed up a great post on it. It is located behind your passenger real wheel.


See here

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14701&highlight=canister

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Congrats Honda-san! Great job with the plenum pull and troubleshooting. It looks a little rough under the plenum there so are you wanting to just fix the problem and move on or some preventive maintenance? In helping you locate some of the parts I find they are getting hard to find and more expensive. We'll communicate through email and see what we can do to help out. I really give you folks credit to have a car like this English as a second language. I can't even find good manuals in English for my Audi A3 since my model year is an export and was not available in US, but in UK and other countries. We are all here to help!

[gorgeousgeorge]

GOLDCYLON,

Thank you for the link. I have to replace the canister too..sigh.
The charcoal particle invaded to inlet of EGR solenoid. The invasion seems to stop there, no particle seen in the vacuum line after the EGR solenoid.

Thank you.

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

[gorgeousgeorge]

Craig-san,

To just fix or to do some preventive maintenance will be depend on the amount of primary parts essential to fix this trouble:cry:

I am considering about this. I will e-mail you tomorrow and would like to talk about the parts availability etc..

Thank you:cheers:

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Craig-san,

To just fix or to do some preventive maintenance will be depend on the amount of primary parts essential to fix this trouble:cry:

I am considering about this. I will e-mail you tomorrow and would like to talk about the parts availability etc..

Thank you:cheers:

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

Okay, I understand and we'll keep in touch. I know your frustration too well, please don't give up on the ZR-1 and LT5 as many others have. :handshak:

Craig

[GOLDCYLON]

GOLDCYLON,

Thank you for the link. I have to replace the canister too..sigh.
The charcoal particle invaded to inlet of EGR solenoid. The invasion seems to stop there, no particle seen in the vacuum line after the EGR solenoid.

Thank you.

Yoshifumi Honda
91Z
Nagoya, Japan

Glad to help. GC