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tomtom72
05-21-2011, 04:56 PM
Okay I'm sorry to be dramatic.:o I have some photos & if any one knows anything about repairing our rear bumper covers I would need to pick your brain.

I was waiting at a light and this 09 Tacoma tried to copulate with my vette!

Here are some photos. Yea, I know it's not the end of the world but it sure didn't make my day!

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/tomZR1/5-21-11%20%20%20car%20photos/reardamage5-21-11001.jpg
left reverse light adrift!

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/tomZR1/5-21-11%20%20%20car%20photos/reardamage5-21-11003.jpg
right side light & cover.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/tomZR1/5-21-11%20%20%20car%20photos/reardamage5-21-11004.jpg

full view.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/tomZR1/5-21-11%20%20%20car%20photos/reardamage5-21-11006.jpg
popped the end of the belt strip, pulled right out of the screws.

any thoughts on how you fix this? TIA!


Tom

Blue Flame Restorations
05-21-2011, 06:01 PM
Ouch! Not as bad a it looks but I'm sure it ruined your day. I wish you were closer, Tom. I'd do it for free for you. A competent shop will be able to repair the urethane skin though. Not a difficult repair. I have an outside trim piece that I will swap you for free, of course. I'll send it with the check for our other deal. You can just send me the broken one and I'll repair it and use it on one of mine some day.

Pay it forward is alive and well.

secondchance
05-21-2011, 06:06 PM
Ouch!
Sorry to hear this Tom.

Blue Flame Restorations
05-21-2011, 06:15 PM
This is exactly whay I am building a mold for the rear bumper cover. At least there will be a source for the bumpers.

They will be hard fiberglass but at least there will be an option.

tomtom72
05-21-2011, 07:36 PM
Thanks Yun for the sympathy!


Brett, what can I say but thank you! You are the proof that we Brothers of The Beast actually do have something extra that bonds us all together.

The offer is greatly appreciated and I have to say that hold on to that belt strip piece as I'm still waiting for the gentleman to report to his Ins Co. Yea, I beat him to it. :neutral:

I'm not looking forward to arguing with a GEICO claims adjuster the finer points concerning the rear body parts on a ZR-1.

Hey, on the bright side....I just was driving home from the hand car wash place. At least I washed off all the road dirt from BG so that when the adjuster see the car he can at least admit that it's not some 21 yr old clunker!

:cheers:
Tom

xlr8nflorida
05-21-2011, 07:52 PM
Sorry to hear Tom - that sucks!

The good thing is that is minor damage and you will be like new in no time.

If you had to get rear ended, that was not a bad way to go.

I've seen some pretty bad bumper covers come back looking new but your damage is minor.

Hope you get her fixed up soon.

tomtom72
05-21-2011, 08:04 PM
Thank you Jim!

I just worry about the reverse lights and that web that the license plate holder attaches to. My license plate is a bit askew and the reverse lights look like they had "ears" for the attachment screws and they are broken off.

I spent some time taking more pictures after I put her back in the barn and that's when I started to look more closely. The picts I posted don't really show some of the aspects of the damage too well. If I load up to my bucket page I'll post more.

That was the most sickening sound I have heard in a long time....since about 1979 when my 72 was rear ended by an old chrome nose Bonneville while I was stopped at a light. Hummmm, I wonder if I should avoid stop lights with my corvette, seems like there may be a pattern here?:sign10:

:cheers:
Tom

VetteMed
05-21-2011, 09:19 PM
Tom, sorry to hear about this - but at least it's nothing structural, and nobody was injured. Looks like the more knowledgeable body guys think you'll be back in action soon - I'm sure they're on the mark.

-Andrew

Blue Flame Restorations
05-21-2011, 10:01 PM
Tom, you should speak with Scott Collier. He was rear ended last Fall. he can give yo good advice for the adjuster. They don't understand that these cars are different than a regular narrow bodied corvette.

tomtom72
05-21-2011, 11:43 PM
Andrew thank you for the encouragement! I needed it.:thumbsup:

That's right Brett! Scott. I'll hit him up with a PM.

Thanks guys!
:cheers:
Tom

XfireZ51
05-22-2011, 12:05 AM
What a drag! :cry::mad:

ScottZ95ZR1
05-22-2011, 01:02 AM
Sorry to see this happened to you Tom. Glad it was relatively minor but I know that doesn't make it feel any better at this point.

Start practicing now and repeat after me..... NO, THE AFTERMARKET C4 CORVETTE BUMPER COVERS AVAILABLE AT ECKLERS WILL NOT FIT MY CAR !!!

Give me a call sometime tomorrow, Tom. Not sure I can offer much help but there are a few things from my recent experience that I'd like to share with you.

LGAFF
05-22-2011, 01:02 AM
Anything can be repaired......just depends on the labor cost...heat and platic welding should be a remedy.

RICKYRJ1
05-22-2011, 02:10 AM
Thats Sucks! but you know that already. Glad you are OK,
She will look better than new when you get her fixed up. If you need anything don't hesitate to ask :proud:

tomtom72
05-22-2011, 07:58 AM
:o Thanks Scott, Dominic, Lee and Rick! This is a good place to be if you are a ZR-1 owner! The Brotherhood is alive and well and looks after it's own!:thumbsup:

Scott PM sent Brother. 10-4 on the Eckler's parts, that's the first thing that ran thru my head!

Lee, I realize that plastic welding can fix it. The only thing is I don't know enough to ask the right Q's to know if the shop knows enough to do it properly. I guess I have some research to do. I know a few corvette restoration shops but C4's are too young to be restored I would think? I figure only the guys here are restoring C4's and not most of the restoration shops.

Dom, Rick....yea it made my day! Now I clearly see the other side of the thought to having a garage queen.....if it isn't out on the road things like this can't happen. I'm just not sure what would suck more; having a ZR-1 caged up, or driving it and taking the risk? It would appear that grasshopper has chosen unwisely, but the alternative would suck worse to me! I couldn't have this car and not drive her.

Thanks guys for all the support!
:cheers:
Tom

HIZNHRZ
05-22-2011, 09:37 AM
Sorry to see the damage to your car Tom; glad no one was hurt. Good luck with the insurance company. It might be a pain but I'm sure it will work out.

tomtom72
05-23-2011, 11:17 AM
I know this may be stupid.....but does anyone think that the reverse lights could be switched left for right by turning one upside down?

TIA
Tom

Blue Flame Restorations
05-23-2011, 12:14 PM
They cannot be switched and look 100% ok. There is a sligt slant. We'll help you find them OR send me your broken one and I'll repair the tabs.

ScottZ95ZR1
05-23-2011, 12:27 PM
I have a set if you need them Tom.

They cost me nothing - so that would be your price.

The car they were removed from had over 100K on the odometer, so alot of Mustang drivers have watched these get smaller. Does that make them priceless ? :mrgreen:

http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd353/scottcollier/Misc/Back-UpLights2.jpg

http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd353/scottcollier/Misc/Back-UpLights1.jpg

tomtom72
05-23-2011, 12:43 PM
Scott and Brett you guys are the best!

Thank you soooooo much!

secondchance
05-23-2011, 12:45 PM
Now I clearly see the other side of the thought to having a garage queen.....if it isn't out on the road things like this can't happen. I'm just not sure what would suck more; having a ZR-1 caged up, or driving it and taking the risk? It would appear that grasshopper has chosen unwisely, but the alternative would suck worse to me! I couldn't have this car and not drive her.

Thanks guys for all the support!
:cheers:
Tom

Tom,

I just replaced my delaminated windshield with a brand new repro windshield. I am seriously thinking about driving around with bubble wrap taped on the windshield.

Z51JEFF
05-23-2011, 04:42 PM
Sorry to hear,see this Tom.Ive been rear ended 4 times in my Corvettes over the years,never a pleasant situation.As far as the insurance goes,be a hardass and get every single part for that car new,at least new prices.Last NOS bumper I saw was $2500.Id get MY estimate for damage and have the check made in my name and Id fix it myself.It would be interesting to play stupid and just see what kind of estimate the responsible parties adjuster would come up with.I absolutely love tangling with insurance companies,love it.I have a copy of the State of California Motorists Bill Of Rights,hope I dont have to use it.........EVER.Tom,glad to see the damage didnt get into the quarter panels.At the very least I see nice used bumpers so they are out there.Id hate to pay the shipping fee to get one,but you aint paying so thats a plus.

tomtom72
05-23-2011, 06:35 PM
:sign10: I gotta laugh & share this with all of my Brothers here.

5/21 @ 3:30 PM I call GEICO and file a statement to their claims office. Okay sir we will contact our client, and then contact you with our determination. Okay.

5/22 I call GEICO claims again. No our client has not responded to our contact efforts yet. We will contact you when they contact us. Okay

5/23 9 AM EST I call again, still can't get this dead beat so & so.

5/23 10:30 AM My ins co calls me to tell me GEICO can't seem to get in touch wit me! I tell my ins co the event line to this point. My ins co hooks me up with an adjuster & he is coming Tuesday at 10AM.

5/23 4:30 PM I call GEICO again to let them "find me". I tell them that they called my ins co complaining that they couldn't find me to tell me that their client is at fault! GEICO says that they didn't call my Ins Co and that they can't reach their client! Okay....I'm calling my Ins Co back and will have them call you.

5/23 4:50 PM I call my Ins Co and tell them that GEICO said they never called my Ins Co! My claims agent says she has the name of the GEICO person and that she will call them and get to the bottom of this. I say okay & that I do not want to file this claim with my Ins Co under any circumstances. She understands and says that I can change my mind if I want to, but that as a service to a customer they will see what is going on at GEICO and let me know what she learns. I say Okay.

:sign10: I just have to laugh! I'm also thinking that the guy that hit me called my Ins Co and filed a claim? Or a counter claim? I will have to call my Ins Co to run that thought down. Sorry for the long post. I just can't quite wrap my mind around this sequence. I must be as dumb as a box of rocks!
:confused:
Tom

btw Yun, I really don't think that bubble wrap idea is a good choice. Jeff, it sure looks like some one is sticking it to me! Brett, I figure that as long as I put the two LH'ed ones in I can send you both if I can't figure out how to fix the tabs....right old buddy? Please!

VetteMed
05-23-2011, 06:46 PM
Ugh, as if dealing with insurance wasn't unpleasant enough to begin with... I've heard some bad things about Geico and Progressive in this type of situation, but hopefully your insurance company will go to bat for you.

Z51JEFF
05-23-2011, 10:21 PM
Its too bad the early BU lights wont work,I have an NOS set collecting dust.

Demps
05-23-2011, 10:51 PM
http://forums.*************.com/c4-parts-for-sale-wanted/2841768-1993-zr1-front-and-rear-bumpers-4-sale.html

Change the d@mn *** to CF.

Ted

secondchance
05-24-2011, 09:28 AM
I am going through a similar situation w/ my other car - rear ended by a DC cabbie.

Blue Flame Restorations
05-24-2011, 10:39 AM
There is a bumper for sale on CF.

LGAFF
05-24-2011, 10:52 AM
Ugh, as if dealing with insurance wasn't unpleasant enough to begin with... I've heard some bad things about Geico and Progressive in this type of situation, but hopefully your insurance company will go to bat for you.


Hey now!

If anyone needs claims advice, just ask me....very heavily regulated....etc. If you are unhappy with an adjuster, ask for a supervisor or manager to escalate things.

tomtom72
05-24-2011, 03:57 PM
Okay now for the good news!

Turns out that the guy that hit me reported the event at almost the same time as I did to GEICO, but because he drove off without exchanging driver's license & car registration info among ourselves GEICO didn't have anything to go on for contacting me. There were two claims for the same event open at the same time being handled by two different claims reps.

This morning I called GEICO and told my story including what my claims dept said and the GEICO rep said "let me check something, hold on a moment". She came back with the other claim number and consolidated the two cases into one case and set me free to contact one of their local adjustor locations. Oh, and they acknowledged that their insured is 100% at fault. So I met with my company's claims adjustor and we went over the car and he would e-mail me a copy of his estimate.

I'm going to get on to GEICO's claim location nearest me to do a drive up look see so they can put a dollar figure on the damage to my car. I just didn't have enough time today to do more than let the adjustor from my company look at the damage. I suppose now is the point where GEICO will try to low ball the damage, I guess? If nothing else I found the list price on the reverse lights and the bumper cover so I guess I can use that as facts to back up at least the parts costs. The labor I don't have a clue on but I may call my chevy dealer and see if they would look up the labor on a bumper cover r&r on a C4 in their flat rate manual otherwise I don't know what to do about figuring out the labor part of this equation. I've already made a fairly good list of the separate operations that I see that are needed just to get to all the cover bolts. It's a fairly long list. The only thing I can't quite decide is if the rear wheel house panels have to be removed to get to all the cover fasteners?

Anyway at least everyone is on the same page now so I feel a bit better about this whole affair. :neutral:

The only thing that really bothers me more than I thought it would is the thought of having to paint the entire bumper cover when the damage is confined to just the license plate/rev lights indented area. I'd like to paint just that area and call it a day. :dontknow:

Yun, I hope you're okay? Darn we should rename this thread to the "doggy style" thread!

:cheers:
Tom

Rex Ruby
05-24-2011, 11:26 PM
Tommy get at least one estimate from a higher end body shop before you meet with their adjuster.

tomtom72
05-25-2011, 06:46 AM
Tommy get at least one estimate from a higher end body shop before you meet with their adjuster.

Oh, Good one. I had not even thought of that....well I was figuring to let them have the second at bat as my company's adjustor just sent me his estimate by e-mail. $1900.00 to repair mine, no replacement.

Thank you John for your advice. I have not yet made any appointments with GEICO's adjustor/drive up claim station. I do believe I may call GEICO and see if I can stall them till next week so I can implement your advice!

:cheers:
Tom

xlr8nflorida
05-25-2011, 10:05 AM
Just thinking out loud here... if I was in your situation....

Make sure you get the amount of $$ from their insurance company you feel comfortable with.

I might be inclined just to spray to prep and spray that spot and install lights.

Black is a tough color and a freshly painted bumper will stand out against the rest of the car unless its a garage queen. I feel that if you just repair that small spot, nobody will know except you and if done right you probably won't be able to tell as its just on the lip.

That being said, you need to get a good amount of $ in case you want the "full monte" paint job later.

Also, make sure you go to an approved shop. For example State Farm has shops that the work is guaranteed for as long as you own the car. So for those who nix the small repair etc because it won't hold up, you are guaranteed it will if you go to one of these shops. Also its a rear bumper, which is alot different then a front bumper which gets way more road rash.

I'd try to definitely get a few grand out of it but bottom line, I don't see why that can't be fixed for $1,000 and that would be if you were spraying out the bumper.

Once you get your settlement, visit a few reputable body shops (ones you did not visit first time around) Walk in the door and tell them you did the damage, (no insurance involved - you are paying cash) How much to fix? you will find that many times the price is cut in half.

How far are you from Long Island?

jrd1990zr1
05-25-2011, 12:04 PM
Tom,

Had a similar situation a few years ago. Hope you called and got a police report, it makes things easier. In NYS a rear end hit like this is paid by the car that hit you, NO COMPARIBLE NEGLIGENCE. The damage appears repairable. I know someone in Albany who can do it if you are interested.

Also keep in mind you have a classic car there and you can claim diminished value and/or loss of use during the repair. Give me a call and we can talk about it more.

John

xlr8nflorida
05-25-2011, 12:31 PM
I think diminished value is going be a tough case. Even when states allow it like NC, its usually for a substantial accident damage.

In New York, insurance companies do not have to compensate the insured for the loss of value resulting from the accident.

It's worth a try.

If the estimate is not what you like, and they are jerking you around I've heard of some people saying their neck and back hurts and maybe they should seek medical attention. Then they stop jerking you around. When you deal with the better insurance companies, they pay to fix the car right. Other companies want to fix your car as cheaply as possible. You might get your way in the end, but you will feel like you went 5 rounds with Mike Tyson and he bit part your ear off.

That is another good reason for you to have good insurance. If you have good insurance, they will duke it out for you.

tomtom72
05-25-2011, 12:45 PM
John & Jim, thanks guys.

I have to say that GEICO after clearing up the paper work snafu has been easy to deal with before the "their adjustor sees the car" phase. However, they did point out that they would stand behind the repair for my life time with this car so that is food for thought for me. I have yet to allow them to make an appointment with their adjustor. I'm looking to see a neutral body shop that has experience with plastic welding and corvettes so I can have an additional estimate to my company's adjustors estimate before I let GEICO have their at bat.

I also am some what cheered by seeing that Jim you are giving me a nood to doing the air brush thing & keeping the new paint off of the cover's broad spaces. It's also what the detail place told me where I'm a regular customer. It's owned by a retired body guy and he said the same thing...do the plastic weld & air brush just the recess. He said that's how he would fix my car to disturb as little of the factory paint as possible is the best approach in my car's case.

I wish things were not so busy at work because I have little time to sneak in phone work toward getting another body shop estimate. Darn it!

John we will talk, would it be okay if I call you early this evening?

Thanks guys for your help!:thumbsup:

Tom

jrd1990zr1
05-25-2011, 04:07 PM
I think diminished value is going be a tough case. Even when states allow it like NC, its usually for a substantial accident damage.

In New York, insurance companies do not have to compensate the insured for the loss of value resulting from the accident.

It's worth a try.

If the estimate is not what you like, and they are jerking you around I've heard of some people saying their neck and back hurts and maybe they should seek medical attention. Then they stop jerking you around. When you deal with the better insurance companies, they pay to fix the car right. Other companies want to fix your car as cheaply as possible. You might get your way in the end, but you will feel like you went 5 rounds with Mike Tyson and he bit part your ear off.

That is another good reason for you to have good insurance. If you have good insurance, they will duke it out for you.


I have to disagree when you are talking about a limited edition classic vehicle. I sent you a PM with some thoughts.

I am not saying it would be a cake walk, but I think Tom can claim loss of value (diminished value) if the bumper is repaired. I think we need to make sure the "hitters" insurance realizes this is not a 1990 neon. Also I would tell my insurance company they are under no circumstances are they to pay any of the claim.

Tom, I'll have my cell on between 5 and 6 tonight give me a call. We should talk before you let their adjuster see the car. Also is there any fiberglass damage where the rub strip pulled through? This may force a bigger repair that just the bumper fascia.

John :cheers:

LGAFF
05-25-2011, 04:38 PM
Ok, 15 years managing claims in 32 states, misinformation and paranoia runs wild.....going to bite my tongue

xlr8nflorida
05-25-2011, 05:26 PM
I think the damage can all be fixed for $1,000 easily.

I would have it fixed for about $500-$750.

Technically speaking, Tom is entitled to the bigger estimate of $3-4k which includes new bumper.

You could argue DV as well. It just depends on how fair everybody is with one another and whether or not you want to hammer the insurance company.

I'd be happy with $3,000-$3,500 check that is for repair, DV and for taking repair vs. new bumper.

I still think you can get it all fixed if you shop around for $750. I don't think a new bumper, major paint work is the answer - less is more.

You would have plenty of $ left over for a new bumper should you desire one down the road. Hammering insurance company for $7k, ($3,000 DV) I think is unfair. More then likely they won't pay it, you will need to argue it and it just gets frustrating and you will come to some type of settlement.

If you are dealing with a good insurance company like State Farm, you may get your big $$ check without an issue. Dealing with a Progressive etc - good luck with that... nightmare.

Get all the $$ you can and still sleep well at night :)

LGAFF
05-25-2011, 07:50 PM
OK time for a dose of truth....

Tom does not matter if you get a higher estimate, you are entitled to a reasonable industry repair. Meaning you are entitled to be paid for the average labor rate in your area, for reasonable repair(shop with average skills and tools). Bumpers can be plastic welded and reconditioned. DV is almost impossible to get because ultimately if your shop screws up the car, its their issue not the companies.

DV has evolved some but it was originally an alternative to the payment for repair, not in addition to... GA is the only state which recognizes first party DV, and in your case this is third partyloss, so proving a DV is very difficult....as stated your shop is paid for a proper repair if its not proper thats between you and the shop, not you and the ins company.

Thats reality...profiting from ins is stupid and the fact is in states were insureds and claimants can abuse insurance settlements, everyone pays out the *** for permiums. The other reality, no one is paid more for paying less on claims, and if you do... you won't be in business long, because you would lose your *** in a class action suit at some point.

Ins companies also don't make alot of money off your premiums, the profit margin is maybe 3-7%, and the rest is made off of investments in low risk things like municiple bonds. So to make money you need reasonable risk and a lot of insureds....so service and keeping people happy is a priority, even when its the other party because its a potential insured.

People having accidents sucks, getting your car damaged is worse, but some of the paranoia is unfounded. I think I have a pretty good rep here in being honest and fair, and thats why I have been a claims manager since I was 26 years old. Lets not fill peoples heads with craziness

Black is also known as the easiest color to match, in back with the exception of newer metallics black is the one color than generally requires no blending into additional panels.....

Pick a decent shop and I am sure the adjuster will work with them, if you have issues ask for a manager.

jrd1990zr1
05-25-2011, 07:54 PM
FWISW

Here are a few pictures of mine before paint. The urethane bumper cover manufacturer recomended a special material with mesh reinforcement.

After checking it closely they found a small crack on the left side too. So entire bumper fascia was refinished.

LGAFF
05-25-2011, 07:58 PM
You can ask Brett how many 53 out there are not patched or filled? hell watch them build a custom bike, they use body filler to smooth it, etc...thats a normal repair

jrd1990zr1
05-25-2011, 08:16 PM
OK time for a dose of truth....

Tom does not matter if you get a higher estimate, you are entitled to a reasonable industry repair. Meaning you are entitled to be paid for the average labor rate in your area, for reasonable repair(shop with average skills and tools). Bumpers can be plastic welded and reconditioned. DV is almost impossible to get because ultimately if your shop screws up the car, its their issue not the companies.

DV has evolved some but it was originally an alternative to the payment for repair, not in addition to... GA is the only state which recognizes first party DV, and in your case this is third partyloss, so proving a DV is very difficult....as stated your shop is paid for a proper repair if its not proper thats between you and the shop, not you and the ins company.

Thats reality...profiting from ins is stupid and the fact is in states were insureds and claimants can abuse insurance settlements, everyone pays out the *** for permiums. The other reality, no one is paid more for paying less on claims, and if you do... you won't be in business long, because you would lose your *** in a class action suit at some point.

Ins companies also don't make alot of money off your premiums, the profit margin is maybe 3-7%, and the rest is made off of investments in low risk things like municiple bonds. So to make money you need reasonable risk and a lot of insureds....so service and keeping people happy is a priority, even when its the other party because its a potential insured.

People having accidents sucks, getting your car damaged is worse, but some of the paranoia is unfounded. I think I have a pretty good rep here in being honest and fair, and thats why I have been a claims manager since I was 26 years old. Lets not fill peoples heads with craziness

Black is also known as the easiest color to match, in back with the exception of newer metallics black is the one color than generally requires no blending into additional panels.....

Pick a decent shop and I am sure the adjuster will work with them, if you have issues ask for a manager.

Lee,

This is not a slam at you but most apraisers and adjusters only care about repair at the least cost. Insurance companies are in business to save money on claims. And they typically tell the repair company how to fix a vehicle and what to use, so agreement on method and material is between Tom and the Insurance Company. Again you may be different in how you work in the business so please don't take this personal, we are going to disagree on this, sorry.

I have been down this road in New York. Your state may be different. Tom is entitled to having his classic car repaired to pre accident condition. (I am assuming it has not had previous damage to the car). The key issue here is that this is a classic limited production car. If it was my wife's Pontiac, I would agree with you.

I believe Tom can argue with the Company and insist on a replacement bumper. My 1990 was hit in a similar fashion and repaired as shown in my post. I argued the significance of the car with the insurance company and they wrote a check to redo the job with a new OEM bumper.

I think if my property is damaged and its value is reduced I should be compensated.

Key is to argue this is not a Pontiac or a neon, it is a limited production ZR1.

My opinion FWIIW. John :cheers:

Blue Flame Restorations
05-25-2011, 09:01 PM
FWISW

Here are a few pictures of mine before paint. The urethane bumper cover manufacturer recomended a special material with mesh reinforcement.

After checking it closely they found a small crack on the left side too. So entire bumper fascia was refinished.

This repair in Post #41 is done properly as just one of the preferred methods of repair. Each shop may have their own preference as to which method they use.

Plastic welding can also be used as a method. These two methods are the "norm" when a replacement bumper cannot be obtained. The "patch" method is what I used to fill the ZR1 badging holes on EX5023.

If I had a large crack or tear in the bumper, I would plastic weld and then use the mesh/adhesive on top of it, on the backside, and the urethane filler on the front side "after" plastic welding the front side as well. You want the weld to melt together on both sides of the surface. Then, do the cosmetics to the outer surface.

And Lee, you are absolutely correct. I have never seen a 53 that hasn't been patched in a non factory seam area.

LGAFF
05-25-2011, 11:08 PM
Adjusters are not paid for the cheapest estimate:

-They are paid to write what is visable, they do not guess what might be damaged
-They ensure alternative parts are considered; if anyone should know what a parts monopoly does to cost it should be a ZR-1 owner.

-They ensure if a part is going to be replaced its actually replaced, not repaired and money pocketed(This is fraud)

-They get an agreed price with the shop, and 99.999% of the time there is no issue, and lets not forget the shop has liability here too so they are not going to agree to a half a$$ repair.

I have overseen the handling of more than 900K claims in my offices, including NY, during a typical 5-7K claim month I may see 1 complaint, most are not justified....last month I totalled a BMW that already had $25K in repairs done to it, because it was the right thing to do

You are free to ask for whatever you want, even a pontiac should be restored to pre-accident condition by industry specs. Going through your own insurance may get you what you want, don't forget what you are entitled to by contract is probably better than what is owed legally....espcially with classic car ins.

If every panel was replaced and every car that was damaged was totalled, imagine how much more your premiums would be......Insurance fraud costs $12.3 billion dollars a year, if you are from NY you should be well aware that no fault fraud comes out of your pocket to the tune of 500M per year. Heck I busted a fraud in 2006 that has stung 3 carries for $1M.....and it started with a field adjuster inspecting the loss.

Adjusters are paid to ensure a fair settlement in a timely manner....thats it


I don't engage in these conversations because its unfortunately a waste of time, people believe the reality they want to..........I guess I go to bed along with most adjusters knowing we do the right thing

Theres 15 minutes I will never get back

These same adjusters are in MS/Mo/OK/TX right now working 12/13hr days to help people put their lives back together

xlr8nflorida
05-26-2011, 12:10 AM
-They ensure if a part is going to be replaced its actually replaced, not repaired and money pocketed(This is fraud)



Just to clarify. I am straight as an arrow and not involved in fraud of any type.

If your car is wrecked and you get a check from the insurance company, you can do whatever you want as the owner. You can do a quick fix or you can even leave the car as is and drive it damaged. You are still entitled to damages. If my back bumper is smashed up and the insurance agrees to pay for it. I can keep my back bumper crashed up, use the $$ for beer or buy 2 cans of spray paint and shoot it myself.

I think if you read my posts you will see I'm all about being fair. I agree insurance companies can't be paying out fortunes all the time. Not all people are unethical. I got hit years ago bad, rearended, I was in bad shape but decided not to sue because that is what everybody else does. So being a nice guy, now I still have problems years later and probably will for life.

I'm all about being fair.

There are good adjusters and bad adjusters. I remember an adjuster that told me he had 50 corvettes. (chances of that by the way??) He spoke for about 45 seconds and I knew he was full of ****. He didn't know anything about SMC or repairs. He was cheap to the bone.

I have had other adjusters, give me great estimates or given me supplements later on with no problems.

I think it really comes down to the adjusters and the company. Some of the adjusters will almost never give you new parts, even if the body shop has to put tons of work into used parts that will never look right.

All my experiences with State Farm have been excellent. Whenever I'm involved with Progressive or no name insurance companies, its always low ball and a pain in the ***.

Those are just my experiences, others experiences may vary.

LGAFF
05-26-2011, 12:25 AM
If the company writes a part and you decide not to fix it thats fine, but if you bill for a part knowing it does not need to be replaced, thats fraud.

People do it to cover ded etc....its fraud

Seen shops prosecuted for it

xlr8nflorida
05-26-2011, 12:26 AM
If the company writes a part and you decide not to fix it thats fine, but if you bill for a part knowing it does not need to be replaced, thats fraud.

People do it to cover ded etc....its fraud

Seen shops prosecuted for it


I agree 100%. I just wanted to clarify as Fraud is not my thing :cheers:

LGAFF
05-26-2011, 12:33 AM
No I do not think anyone was commiting fraud, just want people to understand Ins Companies are not out to screw people

ScottZ95ZR1
05-26-2011, 02:03 AM
Also I would tell my insurance company they are under no circumstances are they to pay any of the claim.

I'm no expert with auto insurance claims but in the recent repair of my car after being rear-ended, I first planned to deal directly with the other party's insurer (AAA) after my insurer (State Farm) informed me she had accepted fault.

AAA sent a 3rd party estimator to my home to inspect and photo the damage, and a day later their adjuster emailed me an estimate totaling just $1,800 to replace the bumper cover. Anything requiring supplemental payment(s) would have to be authorized by that 3rd party estimator.

Bottom line is I chose not to proceed and informed AAA not to send me a check - that I would file with State Farm and let State Farm subrogate with them after the repair was complete. When the repair was completed the cost (including $2K for a suitable used bumper fascia, impact bar, and absorber) was close to $6K. I paid my deductible out-of-pocket but received a reimbursement check from AAA just 6 weeks later.

I am glad I decided to file with my own insurance company. My thought was that State Farm would be more responsive in general as I've done business with them for years, and they cover 6 vehicles and my home. I'm sure AAA would have made things right, but it was going to be alot more frustrating getting there.

Now, I guess I'll have to stand-by to see what happens to my premiums, but State Farm assured me I would not pay more as a result of the claim as I was not at fault - and AAA ultimately paid the bill.

Kevin
05-26-2011, 02:22 AM
No I do not think anyone was commiting fraud, just want people to understand Ins Companies are not out to screw people

I wouldn't go that far mate. well not all of them are out to screw everyone all the time...

LGAFF
05-26-2011, 07:53 AM
Bottom line is I chose not to proceed and informed AAA not to send me a check - that I would file with State Farm and let State Farm subrogate with them after the repair was complete. When the repair was completed the cost (including $2K for a suitable used bumper fascia, impact bar, and absorber) was close to $6K. I paid my deductible out-of-pocket but received a reimbursement check from AAA just 6 weeks later.

AAA actually was rated by consumers as the best claims service in a countrywide survey 5/5 stars across the board(JD Powers)....what you describe is the adjuster writing what they can see, there is no way to see if impact bars and absorbers are damaged until the cover comes off...those are then added as a supplement. 30% of claims have supplements

You cannot be surcharged for a not at fault, you could lose a no claim discount...if you had one or if your company offered one...but you did what you were comfortable with.....and thats whats important and why you have insurance

tomtom72
05-26-2011, 07:55 AM
Lee, Thank you for your time. Thank you for the definitional information. I was very ignorant of the view point from the other side....so to speak. I mean all of what I just wrote. I have had little experience in this area, and never had much of a clue of what the ins co side of the equation looks like beyond the money. That's the output, you gave me the skinny on the process., or mind set.

Brett, my man! The materials & methods is what I was looking for, thanks Brother! Again another area of total ignorance on my part. I guess I'm not comfortable letting some one tell me how they want to fix my stuff if I don't even know what they are talking about....that didn't come out right?

I know I have bad injectors, I diagnosed them, I have a FSM & know what the steps are but am willing to pay to have it done. I use my knowledge to qualify the shop I will pay to do the work because I've done it before. I didn't have a handle on rubber bumper repair, so I had huge anxiety from ignorance. That's as best as I can do to explain where my head is at.

Lee, fwiw, I would not have approached this as "fight". I would have to present facts about methods and material and techniques if my concept differed from those of the adjustor. Without knowledge you can't make your case for lack of agreement with the adjustor. Of course if this happened to my cobalt I doubt I would be as insistent to find an optimal repair technology to fix her bumper. If you had a glass hull boat & ran over a rock at 30 mph, there is only one correct way to repair it if the crack is thru the laminate; but there are many ways to fix it all of which will not be optimal. If this was my boat I could debate methods & materials with an adjustor because I have hands on knowledge. I never fixed a rubber bumper before & have no clue as to proper M&M so whatever an adjustor tells me I would have to take as gospel and I'm uncomfortable with that. To my mind & GRP experience this is a freeboard repair, which is worse to do than a hull repair because the same M&M apply but you have less depth of laminate to work with and that makes the job 10x more difficult. If this cover was GRP, it would be 1/2 way to being repaired by now, my scarfing would be finished and I would be on my way to cutting the pattern for the duplication of the laminate schedule. But this ain't GRP. I flunked spraying gel-coat too, so I'm not a "finisher"....but I lay up a mean pattern & I'm a blood hound at finding delam...:)

Thanks for all the help guys, knowledge is comforting to me.

:cheers:
Tom

ScottZ95ZR1
05-26-2011, 10:23 AM
AAA actually was rated by consumers as the best claims service in a countrywide survey 5/5 stars across the board(JD Powers)....what you describe is the adjuster writing what they can see, there is no way to see if impact bars and absorbers are damaged until the cover comes off...those are then added as a supplement. 30% of claims have supplements

I understand your point regarding the adjuster only writing what he sees, but he knew the bumper cover needed to be replaced. The estimate even acknowledged the fascia was ZR-1 specific and parts availability was an issue. The only used bumper cover I knew of at the time to establish a "market value" was priced at $1,799, and I had shared that info with the estimator. So, their estimate at $1,800 seemed ridiculously low to me - but I was experiencing some anxiety issues at the time.

But Tom is in a different situation than I was in that his fascia repair is relatively minor and he would prefer to have it repaired than replaced. My post was more for the next guy that happens to read this thread. Just because the other party is at fault doesn't necessarily mean you're better off filing with his insurer. Doing so in my case seemed it was going to come with alot more frustration. I wasn't knocking AAA and maybe my experience with them would have been different had they actually been my insurer. For the week I dealt with them I never got a same-day return phone call - but ALWAYS did when dealing with State Farm. It just makes sense to me that your own insurer might very well be more responsive, especially when you are patience-challenged. I was pleasantly surprised that the subrogation process went so quickly and that AAA reimbursed my deductible directly to my door - so I didn't have to wait for it to filter through State Farm.

tomtom72
05-26-2011, 10:41 AM
Could anyone tell me exactly what a ZR-1's bumper cover is made from?

It seems that there are some different materials that the covers can be made with? It seems to me that the parent material dictates the optimal repair material & method....okay I'm not a body tech. I'm just trying to not be in the dark so much.

TIA
Tom

LGAFF
05-26-2011, 10:45 AM
Urethane

jrd1990zr1
05-26-2011, 11:35 AM
I don't want to argue with you Lee and I can agree with you for most of what you say. I also can see where you are coming from based on your job. I have a different perspective. I think that any classic car owner (ZR1s included) should be compensated for their loss. Typically when an insurance company compensates and makes a repair the information is reported and ends up on Carfax. I assume you would agree that an accident reported on carfax creates a negative $$ stigma with any future buyer???

I don't believe insisting that an insurance company reimburse for loss is fraud in any manner.

The last 4 accidents I have had were sitting at a light and an unintentive driiver rams into the back of me. Two were corvettes and when the company realized I was not going to go away they compensated for the repair in a manner I agreed with including loss of use and/or loss of value. Call it what you wish.

The other two times the insurance company required the use of inferior parts which did not fit properly. On my 2 year old Nissan truck they attempted to install a "universal" Keystone bumper required to be used by the insurance company. (it was 1/3 the cost of an OEM Nissan bumper) After it was installed (BTW the shop had to field splice the rear wiring harness to make the lights work) They wanted me to pick it up. I looked it over and complained about the exposed splices. They claimed that it was "industry standard". I asked the shop owner to open the tailgate for me. He couldn't because the Keystone bumper didn't fit right. After 2 days of arguing with the insurance company they replaced with an OEM Nissan bumper and had to replace a portion of the wiring harness which they cut apart.

My point is Tom needs to be compensated properly for his classic previously no hit ZR1. All he needs to do is ask and I will help him out any way I can.

Like I have said we are looking at this issue from different perspectives, so please do not take my comments personally.

BTW they may have plastic welded my fascia before the reinforced repair. I may have missed that step.

I don't like to file with my insurance when the fault is with others. Althought it is an option as Scott describes, it is not an option I favor when the car is one of my classic cars.

I believe under NYS insurance law you only have to report the accident to your company and if the damage exceeds $1000 you need to file with NYS.

Sorry if I am rambling, I'll stop now.

John :cheers:

Z51JEFF
05-26-2011, 01:15 PM
Tom,I dont even know why you want all this hassle.Find a really nice,no damage bumper,get it painted and stick it on the car.Why even think about fixing this bumper when somebody else is going to pay for it.THAT BUMPER WOULD NOT GO BACK ON MY CAR.You guys can argue till your blue in the face about the insurance might not pay for a replacement,no repairs for me.These bumpers are out there,Mr White most likely has one if not youll find a nice one.The trim if its damaged might be a hassle to find.You guys can spin this in every direction as far as a solution to this goes.Id get one estimate,2 if thats what it takes,estimates AT THE SHOP OF MY CHOICE and submit them.Make the check out to me thank you very much.Years ago I had an 84 that got rear ended.No holes or cracks just paint,the cost was $1300.Not trying to piss anybody off here this is just how Id handle it.Another time somebody backed into the hood of the same car and took off.My insurance paid for it.The estimate was writtin for a used hood,not gonna happen I tell the guy not when an New OEM hood can be had and I wouldnt budge,not even a hair.I got a new hood.The airbrush paint repair?I dont even see how this can be done and be 100% undetectable when there arent any cut lines,a clear edge that just disappears?I would say an honest repair with used bumper and as many new parts Id could find would be between $3000-$4000.Whats the impact pad look like behind the bumper?

LGAFF
05-26-2011, 01:28 PM
I am going to stop reading this thread

a)a used hood is OEM
b)Airbrush is not an industry repair

I should have never posted anything.....

maybe the mods can help me and ban me for a month

tomtom72
05-29-2011, 09:03 AM
Just to kind of put a period at the end of this....not that it's not obvious that the car will get fixed at some point and Geico will admit to some level of liability, maybe even 100% as the claims person is reviewing the statements. No official determination has been issued as of today.

First, Lee please forgive me my stupidity, and thank you for your sharing of the knowledge!:thumbsup: It was not my intention to annoy you, or any one else for that matter.:o

Scott, I have to laugh as even the mantra of "Eckler's parts are not for a C4 ZR-1" didn't even help with Geico's adjustor / damage examiner....no matter how hard I tried to offer alternative sources of conformation of "parts are NLA". I tried, and very hard I might add. I raised my voice & I shall return to apologize face to face on Tuesday to my examiner. I'm ashamed of myself.

Geico's data base is what they go by when doing an examination and it says a new cover is $900 + and is available and that's that. I offered to buy the used one in Tulsa for between 450 & 900 depending upon the out come of price discovery, but the examiner said "Are you crazy? I'm writing a new cover for this repair for the same money!" That would have been on me with no payment commitment due to the lack of final judgement on liability at the time of examination. You pays your money and takes your chances. Same goes for the rev lights I bought. Those are the company rules(?), and probably defined by law also? I suppose if the liability determination was final I may have had more wiggle room?

The liability determination thing blind sided me & I got brain lock! My lesson from this is that when I found two NOS covers in stock at Vintage Parts I should have added one to my rev light order on Tuesday.....liability pending or not. They were both gone by Friday afternoon after my "examination". I clearly blew this one! That's my summary of the 'lesson' to be learned.

Now this part is to show that I'm not a one sided ***hole! In Geico's defense I wandered around at their web site and found an e-mail box. I wrote to my claims person in charge of liability determination Saturday morning. I explained the parts situation and the errors in their data base. I further explained the deal with Vintage Parts Inc & that I missed the covers. I explained the Tulsa cover. I offered an exchange of links to demonstrate my point about their data base & my parts hunt results. Okay, it made me feel better. No I didn't think it would amount to anything. Well, I was not entirely correct, sit down for this....a claims person on duty called me Saturday after I e-mailed my comments. Her initial reaction was that the examination station personal dropped the ball, they should have known that owners of rare cars know more about their cars than most anyone. I countered, not their fault & data base is data base. She countered a supervisor should have been consulted right then. I countered that I returned the same day with my Ins Co's estimate after getting Geico's and probably spoke to a supervisor, data base, etc & not their fault & I left a copy of my adjustor's estimate. She countered they still should have done some checking on my info.& that she would speak with my liability claims person on Tuesday. There was more as she probed my knowledge depth & we had a conversation about value. I told her the truth on the value issue. Her reaction was in the future when the #'s are depleted original cars rise. I offered that I can document my car as I bought from the original owner & have all the paperwork from the dealership. Okay enough, my point is I perceive that some one at Geico is listening. Okay, I'll admit I'd like that to be true, but then why call me?

There is another lesson here also. It's if you cling to the fact that your car was all original and get stuck on that, you may miss the boat on some things. That was/is my mistake....don't repeat it! It's hit & no Ins Co can make that not so....your car will never be as it was. I freely admit I was stuck on "but my car had all it's original ____. & ____ .... you fill in the blanks. I have to & should have "got that" from jump, I didn't so I missed the new parts. Sorry to be so long about this, but I wanted to make the point about the "my car is all original" and that Ins Co's ( Geico in this case ) are not trying to f*&% with your head. It's business, not personal.

:cheers:
Tom

secondchance
05-29-2011, 09:48 AM
Tom,

Recently I had a claim on my windshield (yes. ZR-1 specific complete w/ delam and 17 years of wear...) and my insurance, once finding out the difference between the regular C4 vs. ZR-1 and realizing factory part was no longer available and a repro was available (yes. left over from Kurt fiasco) willingly paid for the repro and factory weatherstrip ($346).
I was very appreciative. I have Progressive insurance, btw.

Perhaps I should bubble wrap the whole car...

Good luck!:flag:

LGAFF
05-29-2011, 10:07 AM
Just so people know how it works...GEICO does not have a database they use system such as CCC/Mitchell/ADP same as shops, these are tied into manufacturer databses and also to alternative parts software for used and aftermarket.

If you can't find a part they should escalate it to a sup

tomtom72
05-31-2011, 10:02 AM
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc123/tomZR1/5-31-11%20Lime%20Rock%20Rolex%20race/limeRockGrAmRolex049.jpg

I was thinking of asking these guys if they could make one for the rear of my Z. Okay, but I need to lighten up. I thought it was funny when I saw this at the track Monday.:p

tomtom72
06-09-2011, 05:10 PM
Okay, now I really need some help.

GEICO just called me and I need to prove that their data base is incorrect. Does any one have any ideas how I can prove that a ZR-1's body panels are distinct and different from a regular 90 vette?

TIA
:confused:
Tom

VetteMed
06-09-2011, 05:13 PM
Eh, just have them order the one they think fits, and then they have to explain why there's no way on earth it will fit once it's at the shop.

Realistically - any piece of literature from 89-90 will mention the wider rear fascia in the ZR-1. I would think that would be proof enough.

Blue Flame Restorations
06-09-2011, 05:32 PM
I agree. If they won't do their homework, let them spend their money on a bumper that won't fit. Then, maybe they'll listen up and get the job done.:mad:

ScottZ95ZR1
06-09-2011, 05:48 PM
The GM parts manual specifies our parts by RPO ZR1. Even the Illustration Index for Chassis Group 7 differentiates rear bumpers for "EXC ZR1" and "ZR1".

I agree with the others that you shouldn't have to prove anything to the "experts". It's absolutely ridiculous but I went through similar BS in the beginning stages.

tomtom72
06-09-2011, 05:48 PM
Yea that's how I felt about it. I told the claims person in charge of this claim to order me up 10 bumper covers that fit a ZR-1 and only cost $900 bucks each.

This is starting to get to me though. I'm going to go to their drive up adjustor's place tomorrow and see what they want to use as proof.

I may call the chevy dealer where I bought my Cobalt and see if they can give me proof of the different part numbers and that our covers are discontinued. Then I have to figure out who sells these mythical ZR-1 bumper covers and go get them to admit they don't have any?

I'm soooo glad that I took the time last Saturday to fix a lot of the appearance damage otherwise I would want to choke some one right about now if I had to look at all the damage. Now it's just the two cracks in the cover that are visible and you have to get real close to see them. I fixed the molding that popped and straightened up the Lic frame and installed a new left rev light and she look good.:)

LGAFF
06-09-2011, 06:17 PM
Okay, now I really need some help.

GEICO just called me and I need to prove that their data base is incorrect. Does any one have any ideas how I can prove that a ZR-1's body panels are distinct and different from a regular 90 vette?

TIA
:confused:
Tom

Have them call one of the salvage vendors and check......it should be in the estimating systems database.

LGAFF
06-09-2011, 06:20 PM
looks like the basic hollander interchange knows the difference


Inventory Search (http://www.zr1.net/forum/#) 1990 CHEVROLET CORVETTE, BUMPER ASSEMBLY, REAR, for ZipCode 60014 Used Parts: LKQ A-Reliable Aftermarket Parts: ALSIP, IL 2247 W 139th St 5100 WEST 123rd STREET Blue Island, IL 60406 ALSIP, IL 60803 800-385-2385 800-622-0096
190-01438 Used Sugg. Retail: $0.00 Avail. For Zip: NO False BUMPER ASSEMBLY, REAR 1990 to 1995 ZR-1 190-01212 Used Sugg. Retail: $675.00 Avail. For Zip: NO False BUMPER ASSEMBLY, REAR 1990 to 1990 base

LGAFF
06-09-2011, 06:24 PM
I checked with keystone no remans available and no aftermarket...but they show different

Z51JEFF
06-09-2011, 11:25 PM
Am I the only one sitting here shaking my head as I read these comments?Tom,the next time you pay your insurance policy you need to get a discount for doing their job.It just amazes me the crap we all go through to get a car fixed that somebody else damaged.Tom just who is your insurance carrier?If its Hagerty Im going to start looking for a new insurance company.

tomtom72
06-10-2011, 06:52 AM
Lee, thank you for your time on this! I'm going to bring the info you gave me to the adjustor. It's tough when the GEICO claim people don't have internet access....I keep telling them here let me send you this link....:o

Jeff, it's not my insurance company. I'm not putting this thru my company. This deal is with the other guy's insurance......and all this may be in vain on my part because their ( GEICO's ) insured says that he never hit my corvette....so there is a chance I could easily loose out in all of this. With my luck, it's almost a lock. The claim person is still in the process of making a determination of fault. Pending that outcome I would then have to do this dog & pony show to prove that their estimate to repair my damage is incorrect. I just figure I might as well prove it incorrect now and save the time later. But if they decide that the guy didn't hit me, well I guess I wasted my time. I shall see, I guess.

Gentlemen, thank you all very much for helping me out and allowing me to rant.

:cheers:
Tom

Z51JEFF
06-10-2011, 12:05 PM
Tom,I mean you no disrespect here with my comments but whenever this subject comes up the it always has the same outcome.The passion we all share for these cars pretty much makes use all friends somewhat and I just hate seeing someone get takin advantage of.Good luck with this Tom.

tomtom72
06-10-2011, 02:57 PM
I took it like you were sharing my frustration Jeff. :handshak:

I just didn't want my company to take any blame. They have been as helpful as they could be to me....short of me wanting it to go thru my collision clause.

:cheers:
Tom

jrd1990zr1
06-10-2011, 03:30 PM
Tom,I mean you no disrespect here with my comments but whenever this subject comes up the it always has the same outcome.The passion we all share for these cars pretty much makes use all friends somewhat and I just hate seeing someone get takin advantage of.Good luck with this Tom.


Tom,

If they claim they didn't hit your car, why did they report the accident to their insurance carrier? If there was no accident how come they reported your information to Geico? These are questions I would be asking Geico.

This is why I never move my car until a cop views the accident and then there is a report on file. Too many people out there that want to skate on their responsibility.

Good luck with Geico.

John

XfireZ51
06-10-2011, 06:28 PM
Tom,

If they claim they didn't hit your car, why did they report the accident to their insurance carrier? If there was no accident how come they reported your information to Geico? These are questions I would be asking Geico.

This is why I never move my car until a cop views the accident and then there is a report on file. Too many people out there that want to skate on their responsibility.

Good luck with Geico.

John

Absolutely agree with police report.

Z51JEFF
06-10-2011, 11:32 PM
Absolutely agree with police report.

Not always.Ive got a 64 Nova that got smacked by a public bus.After getting nowhere with the bus company I turned it over to my insurance co.My insurance co at the time,Leland-West was absolutely worthless.The estimate was for around $2300.The bus company wasnt going to pay for the damage despite the police report clearly stating the bus pulling from the side of the road and running into the car.Leland-West did everything possible from low ball estimates to wanting to total the car.One excuse givin was,well these old cars really are not worth all that much.This went on for about 2 months.Once I started requesting info to file a complaint with the State against Leland-West I get a check in the mail for the full $2300.I canceled with Leland-West right after the check cleared.Heres something everyone here that has a collector policy,Leland-West is a broker for American Modern Insurance Group.I would venture to say some here have their car covered by A.M.I.G and dont even know it.

VetteMed
06-10-2011, 11:36 PM
Not always.Ive got a 64 Nova that got smacked by a public bus.After getting nowhere with the bus company I turned it over to my insurance co.My insurance co at the time,Leland-West was absolutely worthless.The estimate was for around $2300.The bus company wasnt going to pay for the damage despite the police report clearly stating the bus pulling from the side of the road and running into the car.Leland-West did everything possible from low ball estimates to wanting to total the car.One excuse givin was,well these old cars really are not worth all that much.This went on for about 2 months.Once I started requesting info to file a complaint with the State against Leland-West I get a check in the mail for the full $2300.I canceled with Leland-West right after the check cleared.Heres something everyone here that has a collector policy,Leland-West is a broker for American Modern Insurance Group.I would venture to say some here have their car covered by A.M.I.G and dont even know it.

Isn't AMIG the company behind the Corvette Museum insurance that's being hawked all over the other forum?

Kevin
06-11-2011, 12:23 AM
Okay, now I really need some help.

GEICO just called me and I need to prove that their data base is incorrect. Does any one have any ideas how I can prove that a ZR-1's body panels are distinct and different from a regular 90 vette?

TIA
:confused:
Tom

you mean other then the window sticker that says they are different, the coffee table book, any half assed google search, and just looking at them?


no wonder people hate insurance companies. no offense to anyone who may happen to work in insurance

Z51JEFF
06-11-2011, 01:37 AM
Isn't AMIG the company behind the Corvette Museum insurance that's being hawked all over the other forum?

From what I understand its one of the companies according to Adam Boca.Just how many companies are selling collector car insurance through the NCM?

tomtom72
06-11-2011, 09:31 AM
:mrgreen: okay round one's bell has rung. GEICO's claim person handling my claim's file called me yesterday at 5:01 PM to speak to me about the results of her investigation of my claim. She has determined that their insured did hit my car and that GEICO will accept 100% fault in my claim.

I should say that she said that she had wanted to call me as soon as a supervisor passed judgement so I wouldn't go thru the weekend not knowing. I have to give personal kudos where they belong. This lady and I had a few conversations on the subject and I think it is to her credit that she called me before packing it in for the weekend! She also reminded me that I have to still prove to the inspector/adjustor at the drive thru claim station that the data they used, price and availability of the cover, is not correct.

Kudos to Deb from the GEICO Long Island office!!!:thumbsup:

I think I'll go clean the Lime Rock dirt from my wheel wells so Mistress looks a bit better!

:cheers:
Tom

Blue Flame Restorations
11-28-2011, 03:40 PM
Tom, did the adjuster finally understand that our bumpers are not the same as a standard Corvette?

tomtom72
11-28-2011, 09:58 PM
:neutral: No, song remains the same.

Them: "our data base says that a rear cover for a ZR-1 is $918.00 and there is a supply."

Me: "If I give you my credit card info will you have 10 shipped to my house?"

Them: "Sir, I see no reason to be sarcastic. The data base clearly shows a distinction between the two cars."

Where is the icon for the guy shooting himself in the head? :sign10:

I'm tired of asking them to call any chevy dealer and find out the straight info right from the source. I think I will deposit the check and call it good. I hardly get down about it any longer because even I have to look closely to see the cracks. I think it's just a lesson well learned for my next life, don't buy any corvette ZR-1's...NOT!:mrgreen:

Kevin
11-28-2011, 10:00 PM
so you're car still isn't fixed? i'd be livid

tomtom72
11-28-2011, 10:09 PM
Well, not exactly Kevin. But I did repair the damage to the belt strip, and replaced the broken rev light and I did do a little something to back up the cracks or tears in the urethane cover. I did do some minor repair work to the webbing that holds the rev lights and the license plate holder. After doing all that minor work I relieved the stress on the indent where all the stiff lives and the slight twist came out of the cover at the two lower corners of the license plate/rev light pocket and the two small tears closed up enough so you have to look for them.

It actually does not look like it's been damaged. You will have to put your nose right down on the spots where the tears are to actually notice them, well almost. I mean I know exactly where to look. A few of my crusin vette buds saw it two weeks ago and said "the paint matched pretty good!" It was funny.

:cheers:
Tom

Blue Flame Restorations
11-28-2011, 10:18 PM
Tom, I would trade you an undamaged bumper for yours. I have a black one but it would need a re-paint.

WVZR-1
11-28-2011, 10:43 PM
:neutral: No, song remains the same.

Them: "our data base says that a rear cover for a ZR-1 is $918.00 and there is a supply."

Me: "If I give you my credit card info will you have 10 shipped to my house?"

Them: "Sir, I see no reason to be sarcastic. The data base clearly shows a distinction between the two cars."

Where is the icon for the guy shooting himself in the head? :sign10:

I'm tired of asking them to call any chevy dealer and find out the straight info right from the source. I think I will deposit the check and call it good. I hardly get down about it any longer because even I have to look closely to see the cracks. I think it's just a lesson well learned for my next life, don't buy any corvette ZR-1's...NOT!:mrgreen:

If you're still not settled you should at least get all of the monies due you. When the cover 10153675 was discontinued from GM the published retail was 993.16 and that can be verified by any dealer. You're deserving of at least that!

Hell a standard cover is presently 1010.50!!

tomtom72
11-28-2011, 10:43 PM
Tom, I would trade you an undamaged bumper for yours. I have a black one but it would need a re-paint.

Ya know people think I'm ready for a brain tune up when I tell them about our little corner of the corvette world....really even my C5 & C6 buds kind of look at me like I'm dreaming or 'projecting my something-or-other-physco-babble'!

Brett, thanks Brother! :thumbsup:

I'm gonna say sell the thing to the highest bidder, bro. Make you some cash so you can have the inherent slowness removed from our cars when they are stock.

I'm okay with my bumper the way it is....and maybe someday when I get a house with a garage, or is that the other way round?....I'll take it off and fix it myself. It isn't rocket science. For now, after my massaging of her wonderful a$$...she looks good to me. Ya know factory paint undamaged and all her parts that she was born with...well, almost all her parts!:sign10:

You know what I'm saying. You'll see if you're down to the Gathering this May. She isn't screaming at me that she wants any body work dunn, so what Mistress wants, Mistress gets! Okay maybe I do need that brain tune up after all!:sign10:

:cheers:
Tom

Blue Flame Restorations
11-28-2011, 10:54 PM
The offer will stand, Tom. I have three black rear bumpers now. LOL

I'll probably make a Callaway AerBody kit from my molds for Dom's old car and won't need one of the bumpers.

tomtom72
11-28-2011, 10:59 PM
Actually WVZR-1, Vintage Parts, INC. had two left the week this happened to me. Their list price was 1810.00 + shipping. I told them, I even sent a link. Thjey were gone three days later because I was going to just buy one on my own and hash it out later, proly loose but at least I'd have an OEM new cover for my trouble.

It fell on deaf ears. I'm tired of talking to them for a coupla reasons.

1.) I say that the part is NLA, from GM or any other source.
2.) I offer concrete links and who to call at my local chevy store.
3.) I even showed them examples of what our covers go for on the used market. Same asking price as their listing for a new part price.

In return I get these responses: invariably I might add, they all use the same script, even the real adjuster at the drive up claim place!

1.) Sir you are incorrect. Our data base clearly shows....yada yada yada
2.) Our online claims people do not have internet access. plus some BS about company policy with regards to that. To which I bring up that one of the phone/internet adjustors slipped and looked at my bucket page! She told me while we were on the phone!
3.) Sir we wrote the damage for a new cover, why would you want to use a used one for the same price as a new one? Usually about at this point in the conversation I want to either reach thru the screen or phone or over the counter and do severe harm to someone's cranial cavity.....but then I remember that I have to be polite and patient just like at car shows , well you know that drill. I just really give up. It's a good lesson learned, next time it's Hagerty or the other guys I forget their name. I have one last tactic I might try. I may call my agent and have a talk with them and see what they think of all this ...but beyond that I really can't be bothered because the damage is so slight.

Wow, sorry to be so long winded. I think I'll go kiss Mistress' A$$ this week!:o

:cheers:
Tom

rhipsher
11-28-2011, 10:59 PM
Tom don't you dare settle and be content on this one. As most everybody knows on here that not long ago a lady in a big ford super duty merged into my lane and caught the euothan bumper and 1/4 panel. There was some paint chips missing and some minor splintering but it wasn't even near as bad as yours Tom. 5 days go by and this chick still hadn't sent me her insurance info. She gives me this sob story about how the truck is her husbands and they are going through a separation and that she still hadn't told him that she hit somebody in his truck. I said look lady im sorry about your situation but I need to get the ball rolling here on getting this thing fixed. The next day she text me everything I needed. She had Ameca or Amica insurance and the ball was rolling. They sent their adjuster out and he said $1'100. And Karen at Richey Collision said "OH NO YOU DIDN'T GIRLFRIEND! TRY MORE LICK $1,875. Ameca cut the check for the full amount. Karen is awesome and will fight the insurance companies to get exactly what its going to cost to fix it right. No more. No less. She named off the worst insurance companies to deal with and Geico was the worst. A good body shop will fight the insurance companies to make sure they pay for what's fair. They made my ZR-1 looklady fantastic. In my case getting hit was a blessing in disguise because my rear bumper was the only part of my car that was showing signs of fading.
On another note I've had Leland west for 5the years now and pray to god I never have to use them. Every time I call their office in Fresno Ca, I feel like im talking to a room full of high school girls. I almost feel like asking "Where are your parents?"
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn63/keeno1970/1-1.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn63/keeno1970/2.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn63/keeno1970/4-1.jpg

ScottZ95ZR1
11-28-2011, 11:01 PM
The offer will stand, Tom. I have three black rear bumpers now. LOL

I'll probably make a Callaway AerBody kit from my molds for Dom's old car and won't need one of the bumpers.

You'll be stuck with that last bumper now that Ecklers finally has the new, shiny units in stock! :)

tomtom72
11-28-2011, 11:06 PM
You'll be stuck with that last bumper now that Ecklers finally has the new, shiny units in stock! :)

I never look at Ecklers, their prices are a bit much most of the times. Tell me this is a joke, right Scott?

:cheers:
Tom

Okay, I fell for it!

rhipsher
11-28-2011, 11:12 PM
Here's the plain truth right on Richey collisions site. http://richeycollisioninc.com/ They specialize in Corvette body repair and paint.

tomtom72
11-28-2011, 11:14 PM
Hey Rick I see that the lady's company low balled the estimate also! GEICO wrote mine for about $1200.00 or there abouts, I haven't looked at the sheet. I argued with the adjustor about there is no one that wil;l work on a vette for $45.00 an hour!

The adjustor didn't see my humor needless to say. Maybe I will call my own agent and see what can be done. I just didn't feel like it during the season. Last run is this weekend, maybe next week I'll call my agent and take her to lunch and see what can be done. Yea, she's single and around my age!:sign10:

BTW, your paint looks 10/10! Rock on Dude! :thumbsup:

:cheers:
Tom

WVZR-1
11-28-2011, 11:15 PM
Tom,

There's two ways to actually deal with it!

1. If you're happy with the monies etc etc etc etc that's cool.

2. Put it in a shop and then make the calls! I don't know how the "claimant" situation is treated in NY but generally once it's "in the shop" and they've accepted liability it's time for a rental. They will move to get you settled!

ScottZ95ZR1
11-28-2011, 11:16 PM
I never look at Ecklers, their prices are a bit much most of the times. Tell me this is a joke, right Scott?

:cheers:
Tom

Really bad joke, Tom. Sorry man. That's where the at-fault driver's insurer told me they were available when I needed one, at least in the early stages.
They weren't local so I never choked anyone.

tomtom72
11-28-2011, 11:17 PM
Makes me wish I lived down where you guys are. Jez, I'd have it made in the shade. Cory and a great body shop, and empty roads!!!!

tomtom72
11-28-2011, 11:19 PM
Really bad joke, Tom. Sorry man. That's where the at-fault driver's insurer told me they were available when I needed one, at least in the early stages.
They weren't local so I never choked anyone.

:thumbsup::sign10::sign10: Scott, you da man! It's all good Bro.!

I was very controlled. I have not cussed anyone out, in person or on the phone/internet. I have not even balled up my fists. I went to anger management class like a good little boy!:-x

LGAFF
11-28-2011, 11:30 PM
Tell them to pay you for the bumper or proper repair of the current bumper....or you will file a DOI complaint. Other option is to call the State and see if they will help New York has a pretty tough DOI and anyone writing an estimate needs a state lic.

rhipsher
11-28-2011, 11:41 PM
Hey Rick I see that the lady's company low balled the estimate also! GEICO wrote mine for about $1200.00 or there abouts, I haven't looked at the sheet. I argued with the adjustor about there is no one that wil;l work on a vette for $45.00 an hour!

The adjustor didn't see my humor needless to say. Maybe I will call my own agent and see what can be done. I just didn't feel like it during the season. Last run is this weekend, maybe next week I'll call my agent and take her to lunch and see what can be done. Yea, she's single and around my age!:sign10:

BTW, your paint looks 10/10! Rock on Dude! :thumbsup:

:cheers:
Tom Tom im real sorry your having to go through this. Nobody should have to. It should be cut and dry.
Yea when I pulled up to Coreys in Oct I showed corey the repair and his eyes popped out of his head. He couldn't believe how good it looked and how perfect the color match was. Im very color blind so I had to rely on other people to tell me how the color match came out.
Tom id seriously look for a body shop that specializes in vette/fiberglass body work. There has to be somebody there. I mean come on! Its New York the center of the universe. And if your insurance lady is cute Id definitely take her out to lunch. Who knows what could happen man. Hell yea buddy. She might be able to take your mind off it for a while if you know what im saying. Lol!

Ccmano
11-29-2011, 12:10 AM
Tell them to pay you for the bumper or proper repair of the current bumper....or you will file a DOI complaint. Other option is to call the State and see if they will help New York has a pretty tough DOI and anyone writing an estimate needs a state lic.

Tom,

Take Lee's advice, he knows what he's talking about... he's knows the insurance biz... he's part of it.

Good luck... sounds like you'll need it.

Hans
:cheers:

tomtom72
11-29-2011, 09:01 AM
Okay, first I have to say thank you to all my Brothers here. You guys are the best! :thumbsup:


Lee, you have put up with my stupidity and have been very patient with me. Thank you very much. I'm going to make an appointment with my agent and see what she tells me. I'll keep your advice to myself until she finishes her answer. Yea, I've come to that point! That's mostly why I did the work at "Tom's C4 Auto-Restoration Shop" ;) I'm quite a simple guy, simpleton more like it! If I did wrong to some one I make it right. I know the world don't work that way and I'm dumb!:o

Next, I will start another serious search for a local shop that I would trust. I know where there are shops, but most are quite far from me...mostly out by Frank on Long Island, and I know one in CT that did Lou's car.

:o You guys make it soooo worth it to own one of these cars....not for the car, but for the people!:thumbsup:

:cheers:
Tom

pantera1683
11-29-2011, 08:14 PM
:neutral: No, song remains the same.

Them: "our data base says that a rear cover for a ZR-1 is $918.00 and there is a supply."

Me: "If I give you my credit card info will you have 10 shipped to my house?"

Them: "Sir, I see no reason to be sarcastic. The data base clearly shows a distinction between the two cars."

Where is the icon for the guy shooting himself in the head? :sign10:

I'm tired of asking them to call any chevy dealer and find out the straight info right from the source. I think I will deposit the check and call it good. I hardly get down about it any longer because even I have to look closely to see the cracks. I think it's just a lesson well learned for my next life, don't buy any corvette ZR-1's...NOT!:mrgreen:


Do NOT under any circumstance cash or deposit that insurance check...and do NOT sign any documents!!! You are getting shafted and should file a claim in small claims court.

VetteMed
11-29-2011, 08:18 PM
Do NOT under any circumstance cash or deposit that insurance check...and do NOT sign any documents!!! You are getting shafted and should file a claim in small claims court.

Agreed, you're getting dicked around, why settle?

pantera1683
11-29-2011, 08:25 PM
Dude, you do not have to settle for the insurance company's scraps. Their client hit you and now they are shafting you because their bean counters know that most people will just cave. You are entitled to be made WHOLE, basically put in the position in which you were before the accident. You need to prove to the judge how much it will cost to get your damage fixed or real world estimates on how much it's going to cost to get fixed. More than likely Geico will give you what you're asking before you even get to court. Remember those bean counters...preparing cases for trial is expensive even for small claims cases.

Good luck!!!

LGAFF
11-29-2011, 09:00 PM
Acceptance of a check is generally not a waiver or release in fact most states make it illegal to place such language on a check

pantera1683
11-29-2011, 09:08 PM
Acceptance of a check is generally not a waiver or release in fact most states make it illegal to place such language on a check

That's why I said don't sign anything; those documents usually accompany the check. The check is just a negotiable instrument and the form of payment the insurance company gives you in a settlement. No settlement no check. When you cash/deposit the check and/or sign settlement papers you are generally precluded from any further remedy.

Oh yeah and accepting a check means nothing...it's signing the check that's the problem.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is if you deposit that check you usually can't go looking for more money.

jrd1990zr1
11-29-2011, 10:29 PM
Tom,

You are getting s_r_w_d without even a kiss.

On October 12, 2008 my charcoal Z was hit by a mini-van with a women driver and 2 women passengers. All were yaking away and did not see the red light I was stopped at.

I called the police and left the car in the road at the light until the police got there. I notified my insurance and instructed them to NOT pay for any damage. I contacted the other insurance co and told them their insured hit me and I expected them to pay the entire claim. After going back and forth about the insurance of the driver and the owner of the van they agreed to pay.

I met with the adjuster at the bodyshop and after arguing for 2 hours the adjuster instructed the bodyshop to repair the bumper over my objection. They paid the bodyshop $825 to repair and repaint and reinstall the bumper. I wrote a certified letter to the adjuster stating the repair was not acceptable.

I wrote a second certified letter to the adjuster's boss and demanded 23 days of payment for lack of use and $5000 in diminished value for the loss of value to my classic ZR1. I gave them 30 days to mail a check or I was going to file a complaint with the NYS Insurance Department.

I immediately got a call and within a week had two adjusters at my house to view the car. I documented the car was a ZR1 and why a repair of the bumper diminished the value of the car. After about a month or so I got a check for the removal and replacement of the repaired bumper with an OEM bumper. Bumper cost alone was $2774.00.

Bottom line be persistent and don't settle until they pay you for ALL of your damage.

Let me know if I can help you out on this.

John

Kevin
11-29-2011, 10:58 PM
this thread reminds me of why I don't dd my car

LGAFF
11-29-2011, 11:43 PM
This is from NY Reg 64, while some of the statutes state insured(1st party).....the Reg outlines that intent of the regs are for any first of third party claimant.....clearly the company is not acting in accordance with the Fair Claims Practices of NY........I 110% gurantee you that a call to the DOI or a Claim manager would resolve this issue.....

Directions for filing a complaint are at the bottom and should be on all letters sent out....



(d) Section 3412 of the Insurance Law has been implemented by section 216.8 of this Part.
(e) Claim practice principles to be followed by all insurers:
(1) Have as your basic goal the prompt and fair settlement of all claims.
(2) Assist the claimant in the processing of a claim.
(3) Do not demand verification of facts unless there are good reasons to do so. When verification of facts is necessary, it should be done as expeditiously as possible.

11 NYCRR 216.6 Standards for prompt, fair and equitable settlements
(a) In any case where there is no dispute as to coverage, it shall be the duty of every insurer to offer claimants, or their authorized representatives, amounts which are fair and reasonable as shown by its investigation of the claim, providing the amounts so offered are within policy limits and in accordance with the policy provisions.

(1) repair the property to its condition immediately prior to the loss; or
(2) replace it with an item substantially identical to the item damaged. Such amount shall include all monies paid or payable as sales taxes on the item repaired or replaced. This shall not be construed to prevent an insurer from issuing a policy insuring against physical damage to property, where the amount of damages to be paid in the event of a total loss to the property is a specified dollar amount.


(g) Checks or drafts in payment of claims; releases. No insurer shall issue a check or draft in payment of a first-party claim or any element thereof, arising under any policy subject to this Part that contains any language or provision that expressly or impliedly states that acceptance of such check or draft shall constitute a final settlement or release of any or all future obligations arising out of the loss. No insurer shall require execution of a release on a first- or third-party claim that is broader than the scope of the settlement.
(h) Any notice rejecting any element of a claim involving personal property insurance shall contain the identity and the claims processing address of the insurer, the insured's policy number, the claim number, and the following statement prominently set out:


"Should you wish to take this matter up with the New York State Insurance Department, you may file with the Department either on its website atwww.ins.state.ny.us/complhow.htm or you may write to or visit the Consumer Services Bureau, New York State Insurance Department, at: 25 Beaver Street, New York, NY 10004; One Commerce Plaza, Albany, NY 12257; 200 Old Country Road, Suite 340, Mineola, NY 11501; or Walter J. Mahoney Office Building, 65 Court Street, Buffalo, NY 14202."
Statutory Authority - Insurance Law, ยงยง 201, 301, 305(a), 2601, 2610, 3411 and 3412.

rhipsher
11-30-2011, 12:36 AM
this thread reminds me of why I don't dd my car I don't either but the one time I did drive it some dumb b%tch hits me. It always seems to be by a woman.

Blue Flame Restorations
11-30-2011, 12:38 AM
I don't either but the one time I did drive it some dumb b%tch hits me. It always seems to be by a woman.

That cat is probably a female killing a perfectly innocent male birdy. hahahahahahahaha

OR

Maybe the bird is a NY Adjuster

rhipsher
11-30-2011, 12:47 AM
That cat is probably a female killing a perfectly innocent male birdy. hahahahahahahaha

OR

Maybe the bird is a NY Adjuster Female cat or not that is one badazz alley cat. Most cats just hit the deck when those blue jayz are dive bombing them. He picked on the wrong cat. Lol!

Blue Flame Restorations
11-30-2011, 12:48 AM
:sign10:

John Boothby
11-30-2011, 01:02 AM
You guys are lucky the driver at fault HAD insurance! Out here in Nevada the chances are a driver at fault is UNINSURED!

The last accident I had, I was in bed and a drunk driver TOTALED my car parked out in front of my brother's house. He had a revoked (drunk driving) license, driving his mother's car, she had no insurance and lived out of state! Lucky I had uninsured moterist insurance which is manditory here. Also lucky that it was not my Z!

tomtom72
11-30-2011, 08:13 AM
Thank you all of my Brothers for all your support. Kevin, I don't DD my Z....just a case of me being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Lee, as usual yes, GEICO actually gave me that section attached to their written estimate. I did read it and another adjustor and now you pointed out to me that the check isn't the settlement of the claim.

I have to find a shop. Called my agent & left a voice mail. I think I'll call again after a bit today.

Again, a big Thank You to all of my Brothers for making our group special.:thumbsup:

:cheers:
Tom

FU
11-30-2011, 08:18 AM
Lucky I had uninsured moterist insurance which is manditory here.

It should be mandatory for everyone to carry uninsured/underinsured motorist insurance. Without a doubt it come's in handy.

Kevin
11-30-2011, 08:31 AM
i need to go back and look at my policy now...