Fidanzza flywheel and transmission 10W60 oil?

[Mika73]

I have Fidanzza aluminium flywheel at -90 ZR1 and that rattle sound sounds me nuts, mostly at highway.. Is it really ok use same Castrol 10W60 oli as ZF transmission as I use at LT5 engine? I ask this years ago at Corvette Service Finland and they said that they are not going to put engine oil to transmission.
Is this good idea and does it make a difference?

I been even thinking change orginal flywheel back, but I dont have this anymore and flywheel with change would cost a lot.

[Paul Workman]

I had what is apparently a common failure with the ZF transmission - the reverse gear seizing to the idler shaft due to (as Bill Boudreau of ZFdoc.com put it) lack of lubrication. One minute I was cruising down the highway, and suddenly I feel a tug, like someone applying the brakes. In a matter of seconds the rear wheels lock up and skid to a halt!

I ended up buying a new transmission, and Bill opened up the oil galleries to better lube that reverse idler gear, and he recommended the Castrol TWS 10W-60 synthetic oil. (see excerpt from his web page (http://www.zfdoc.com/faq.htm))

(Q.) I just bought, at the local BMW dealership, 3 liters of the Castrol TWS 10W60 oil. I was surprised to see that it is motor oil. Not being a lubrication engineer myself, who did the investigation and determination that this product is compatible with and good for our ZF transmissions? Jim ? Grand Sport Registry
(A.) Jim, the C4 Corvette ZF S6-40 6-speed transmission uses engine oil for lubrication. I was told by Jeff Henning, Warranty Administrator of ZF Industries North America, that Engineering of ZF Industries in Germany determined that the BMW imported Castrol (RS superseded by TWS) 10W-60 oil was the recommended alternative to the (GM P/N 1052931) factory-fill oil for use in the ZF S6-40 transmission. In effort to verify ZF Industries alternative lubricant recommendation, we ran our own test series on the BMW imported Castrol TWS 10W-60 oil. Independent testing of the transmission oil samples was sub-contracted out to CTC Analytical Services. The test series went as follows:
<1> Spectrographic analysis indicated that it is has full synthetic composition.
<2> After 2 hours of operation, approximately 100 miles, oil sample analysis tests indicated that the viscosity rating was reduced from 60 down to a 43 level. No need to worry, this is a normal occurrence for this heavier type of oil. I attribute this to microscopic-level lubricant-strand trimming through operational loading where all of the oil contents has been passed through gear pressure-loading regions at least a few times.
<3> At 200 miles, the viscosity level stabilized at a 42 level viscosity since the 100 mile oil analysis test results.
<4> At 5000 miles, the oil analysis test results indicated a 40 level viscosity.
The test-transmission was completely disassembled and checked for wear. There were no signs of carbon film like experienced with the factory-fill oil. The phosphor-bronze lined synchronizers had no glazing and experienced an average mass loss of approximately 4% based on reserve-wear-range mass equivalency between 0.062"(new) and 0.048"(spent)
gap wear/mass measurements.
<5> At 10,000 miles, the oil analysis test results indicated a 39 level viscosity.
<6> At 12,500 miles, the oil analysis test results indicated a 37 level viscosity.
<7> At 15,000 miles, the oil analysis test results indicated a 34 level viscosity.
The test-transmission was again completely disassembled and checked for wear. There were no signs of carbon film like experienced with the factory-fill 30 oil. The phosphor-bronze lined synchronizers had no glazing and experienced an average mass loss of approximately 17% based on reserve-wear-range mass equivalency between 0.062"(new) and 0.048"(spent) gap wear/mass measurements.
<8> At 15,000 miles the oil had enough phosphor-bronze particles suspended
in it that deposits began building up inside of the synchronizer sliding
sleeves from the normal centrifuge-like rotational occurrence.
In Conclusion, until someone invents a copper magnet, we recommend that the ZF S6-40 6-speed transmission oil be changed at 10,000 - 12,000 mile intervals so as to minimize the amount of deposits of the suspended spent synchronizer material from collecting in critical component contact surface areas.

I too had some rattle with my Fidanza, but Marc increased the idle speed by 100 rpm. That helped, but the biggest improvement came as result of replacing the injectors, due to 3 of my OEM injectors were going bad. The combination of the rpm, good injectors, and TWS 10W-60 oil, and I have no gear rattle at idle.

So, I guess my point is that manufacture recommends the Castrol TWS, (or the equivalent), and being a little paranoid (now) of oil-related (lack of oil) failure, I use the TWS 10W-60 synthetic and WATCH the level carefully!

FWIW,

P.

[Mika73]

I guess that biggest problem is at highway at cruise maybe 50mph and little uphill comes.. That sound isnt so nice.. So maybe I should get Castrol 10W60 next time if it makes difference to normal GM oil that is used with ZF.

[Paul Workman]

I guess that biggest problem is at highway at cruise maybe 50mph and little uphill comes.. That sound isnt so nice.. So maybe I should get Castrol 10W60 next time if it makes difference to normal GM oil that is used with ZF.

Well, I think we're talking about two different things... The Fidanza/ZF noise at idle is one thing, but noise on the highway - under load :confused:? That doesn't sound so good, and I doubt it has anything to do with the Fidanza under the conditions you describe... Something else is going on there, I guess. I would suggest linking up with Bill B at ZFdoc.com

P.

[Mika73]

This started just after Fidanza years ago and I think I have read that single mass flywheel does this with low RPM when there gets more load.. :(

?There will also be some low level growl from the transmission when accelerating lightly in the 750 to 2500 rpm range.?
http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/products/flywheel-clutch.htm

[A26B]

I can maybe understand the possibility of the growl, but not the rattle under load. The rattle is due to the lash in the gear train and should only occur with the clutch out in neutral, NOT while driving under load.

I'm in complete agreement with Paul in thinking you have something going on besides the transmission.

BTW, I had the dreaded ZF "seizure" also and had Redline lube in the transmission with only about 2,000 miles. The transmission still had the original oil when I changed it at 59,000 miles & it looked like new oil when I drained it. I would not recommend Redline for the ZF. I've been running the Castrol from BMW in the new transmission.

[GOLDCYLON]

Well, I think we're talking about two different things... The Fidanza/ZF noise at idle is one thing, but noise on the highway - under load :confused:? That doesn't sound so good, and I doubt it has anything to do with the Fidanza under the conditions you describe... Something else is going on there, I guess. I would suggest linking up with Bill B at ZFdoc.com

P.


I completely agree with Pauls statement above. Something else is going on and you need to talk to Bill Boudreau.

I also just recently learned that the Fridanza flywheels are not good to go right out of the box. They need to be drilled and Zero balanced before installation. Im getting ready to install one on my new motor and Polo-1 is getting mine zero balanced. Just FYI

[Mika73]

Maybe I was using wrong word. But it makes noise that disturbs me at highway. It isnt drilled/balanced, service just put it there when they changed Centerforce clutch. Problem is at low rpm and goes away if using lower gear.

[Paul Workman]

Something else...

When the transmission is installed, the alignment of the transmission has to be correct, or there can be some noise (and wear and vibration) issues. (Again, visit ZFdoc.com for the specific information. Just a thought.)

P.

[FU]

Bear in mind that the transmission will "growl" loudly with a single mass on the highway when your lugging the engine.
This is my experience at least.

[zrss]

Bear in mind that the transmission will "growl" loudly with a single mass on the highway when your lugging the engine.
This is my experience at least.

Mine as well. Accelerating from 1500 rpm to 2500 rpm in high gear under wide open throttle produces a loud "whine" or "growl" in both my single mass flywheel Z's. Marc confirmed that the noise is normal.

[Mika73]

Thats good to know. That sound just isnt so nice. Usually helps if rev higher, but problem is worse with cruise that try keep speed something like 50mph or at slow city stop/go traffic.

And 10W60 wont help to this? It helps only at idle?

[FU]

You are using 6th gear at 50 mph ?

[-=Jeff=-]

I can maybe understand the possibility of the growl, but not the rattle under load. The rattle is due to the lash in the gear train and should only occur with the clutch out in neutral, NOT while driving under load.


When I first did the Zf swap in my 89, I had the same rattle noise under load.

it was due to the Single mass flywheel along with a NON-sprung hub disc..

the sprung hub disc helped quite a bit to quiet it down

[Mika73]

What's sprung hub disc? I have Centerforce clutch. Don't use 6th gear. Not even at 60mph.

[zrss]

Thats good to know. That sound just isnt so nice. Usually helps if rev higher, but problem is worse with cruise that try keep speed something like 50mph or at slow city stop/go traffic.

And 10W60 wont help to this? It helps only at idle?

10W60 will help a little, but not much. The sprung hub disc will do a lot more to quiet things down. The Centerforce disc you have is not sprung. McLeod used to make a sprung disc - you might check with them if the noise bothers you enough to get you to pull the clutch.

[FU]

A stock flywheel pressure plate and clutch are good till around 550 rwhp & 490 tq. Just FYI.
My LPE-LSV 385 had a Fidanzza flywheel etc. in it. IMO ruined the car. We put the stock setup back in the car. And now it's back to the sweet ride that it once was.

[-=Jeff=-]

Solid hub Disc:
http://www.funrunr.com/clutch_net_clutch_disc_pic.gif

sprung hub disc:
http://www.jbugs.com/store/graphics/00000001/VW-CLUTCH-DISK-180MM-SPRUNG-111141031FBRx.jpg

[mike100]

The 10w-60 Castrol BMW oil won't make the gear box sound any different than a 5w-30 based gear lube.

[Paul Workman]

I'm not familiar with the growl you are experiencing. However, upon recommendations from others at the time I installed the Fidanza, I also installed a sprung hub clutch disc as well.

As I recall, the purpose of the sprung hub was to quiet the transmission rattle at idle. I don't recall any discussion about quieting the engine impulses in the transmission when lugging at lower rpm too, but it makes sense, I suppose.

As it happens, the disc I'm using is the disc used on 93-97 LT1 Camaros.

Sprung hub disc part # 381039 (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTF-381039/Application/?query=Year|1996|Make|CHEVROLET|Model|CAMARO&prefilter=1) (Centerforce) from Summit Racing @ $199.xx

With regard to the pressure plate bolts, the people on this forum that successfully installed the Fidanza also recommended using longer bolts from SRP. (http://www.zr1products.com/) The reasoning for that is because the flywheel is aluminum and the longer threads spreads the holding force over more thread area - a good thing when bolting to aluminum.

In addition, the shank on the factory pressure plate bolts fit into a recess at the surface of the flywheel. This is to add a measure of lateral support to resist shearing between the flywheel and the pressure plate. Some have used longer grade 8 bolts from the hardware store, but the shank of hardware store bolts may or may not fit well enough to provide any additional support against shearing.

It is recommended (by the same people that recommended the sprung hub to go along with a successful Fidanza installation) to buy the longer bolts. SRP (http://www.zr1products.com/) has the bolts with the proper thread and shank length, and mine came as a kit containing the proper drill bit and thread tap along with the bolts.

FWIW, I did NOT rebalance the flywheel after drilling and tapping it for the longer bolts. However, I did take care to drill the depth exactly the same on each hole. I don't believe I have any vibration issues (e.g., "buzzing") - at least none that I can feel. Maybe I'm just lucky on that one. But, if I had it to do over, I'd probably have it balanced...for peace of mind (at least).

So, to summarize the Net Registry's contributions to the Fidanza installation recommendations for quiet operation with the ZF and the LT5...


Use a sprung hub clutch disc (mine is the Centerforce #381039 at Summit Racing)
Use bolts with proper shank and thread length and hardness (SRP has them)
Balance the flywheel after drilling and tapping the flywheel for the longer bolts (I didn't, but maybe got lucky)
raise the idle by 100 rpm.
Replace injectors if the least bit out of spec or marginal function


The result (for mine) is a car that idles and pulls as quiet as it did with the stock flywheel. Even Marc H commented on how nice my Z is to drive. If it is, it is because of the experiences and recommendations I followed from those on the Registry. Nothing against learning by the school of "Hard Knocks", but when possible, I'll try the proven path first. :thumbsup:

So, if all this doesn't help, then at least you can probably rule out the Fidanza installation as the cause. That would bring us full circle - back to the transmission.

Good luck. Keep us posted.:cheers:

P.

[maxxpower]

It's been quite a while (while not many miles) since I looked into this, but I thought the red line shock proof oil was the best oil to use with the fidanza flywheel??

Would love to know what people think as it is time for a change and would like to use whatever everyone has had the best experience with.

Thanks...