Refinishing the engine - Would it take away NCRS points?

[Corvette95]

Hi,
I was thinking of having my LT5 refinished to look stock but more durable. The engine looks good now but has a flat finish with a few water spots. If I were to go with a silver stock type finish with the 32 valve letters in red, what do you think the NCRS judges would say in a few year?

Thanks!
Chris

[bobbyhi]

They would say that it looks nice but not original and deduct points[-X [-X

[Corvette95]

Can it be refinished to OE NCRS standards?

[Kevin]

Can it be refinished to OE NCRS standards?
yes but it's not worth it.

as I said on cf
you will get condition points and loose originality or you will loose condition and keep originality.....If it was me judging I'd give you both since i know it's impossible to enjoy these cars and keep the stock finish looking perfect.

[Z Factor]

Hi,
I was thinking of having my LT5 refinished to look stock but more durable. The engine looks good now but has a flat finish with a few water spots. If I were to go with a silver stock type finish with the 32 valve letters in red, what do you think the NCRS judges would say in a few year?

Thanks!
Chris


This is only an opinion since I am not familiar with their judging standards on the engine. Refinishing with the stock color should not hurt you unless it is noticeably off color. However, painting the letters on the plenum red will almost certainly lose some originally points. I'm sure there is a way to get a definitive answer, and you may wish to hold off on any project like that if you are thinking of having it judged.

:cheers:

[RICKYRJ1]

Maybe it is worth the point loss to have your engine look and run better. Like I said on CF What does the R stand for in NCRS? The cars that I have seen with their engines PC look great and it is a very durable finish. Good Luck, tough call.

[Kevin]

the real quesiton is does anyone know what a stock LT5 actually looks like? I've never seen a "stock one" in my 7 years with these cars

[Jeffvette]

There were roughly two shades of color. A bright silver and then a more flat grey. I've got a few sets of original injector housings with the factory color (these are brand new)

I can match it, but it's not the same.

[RICKYRJ1]

I have the flat gray. I think it does not do the LT5 justice. I'm going with silver PC with red/blk lettering. I deal with the NCRS judges later, I heard they take take payoffs like the refs from the SB:wink:

[TommyL]

If you repaint the LT-5 in the factory paint just to freshen or "restore" it, you shold not be affected by NCRS judging unless you are going for the total original "survivor class". If you were to powder coat the engine in a different color or alter it in anyway you WILL loose points.

My advise is: If you plan on having your car judged and want to maintain a so called "perfect" NCRS car, Leave it alone and keep it as original as possible...dont change anything if you dont have to. That is what NCRS is all about ORIGINALITY!

NCRS Will check parts and #s on your car you didnt even know about. They will comb through it and find alot of point deductions unless you do your homework. One item that I can see almost everyone loosing points on is the battery-very few if any of us have the original battery. This type of judging is not for everyone...it is possible for a team of judges to inspect your car for an hour +. As i said in CF you should get the newest NCRS Judging Manual 1990-1991 to get an idea of what they look for and then you will have a good idea of what an NCRS event is all about.

[Kevin]

even if you leave it stock it will loose you points. It's just not worth it IMO

[Ed Hoffman]

Corvette 95,
I am about to have my 1957 judged for the final time in an attempt to receive the Duntov Award of Excellence. It is a hard road to travel, but when you have finished, the value of the Corvette is at it's peak. Buyers look for NCRS judging awards and Bloomington Gold awards. Bloomington has not accepted Corvettes that are less than 25 years old. I just purchased a 93 Ruby ZR with 16,000 miles. The car is absolutly original and looks showroom fresh. The man I bought the car from was a fanatic about keeping and storing the car in a plastic shield. Now for NCRS judging of the ZR-1 Corvettes. The requirements are simple in design. The Corvette must look and function as it did the day it come off the showroom floor, with normal dealer prep. All parts that have a number visible, engine, Oil Filter, Battery, and all such items will be judged for originalty and condition. Every lable is judged. There is 5 sections that are judged. Operations (everything must work), exterior, interior, mechanical, and chassis. This year(2006) NCRS accepted 90 and 91 Corvettes for judging. Oh by the way, I am an NCRS judge, and the fellow(RickyRj1) who posted "NCRS Judges take payoffs" I beleive is living in Na Na land. We do this for nothing, which includes our own plane fare, lodging, and food, when we go to a judging meet. Back to your question. The first thing you need to do is contact and join an NCRS chapter in your area. I know there is a Southeast Chapter and can be reached at (770) 338-2806. After you join the Chapter, you then become eligible to join the National Chapter of NCRS (NCRS.com). You then purchase the NCRS Technicle Information Manual & Judging Guide. This will walk you thru every area that will be judged. My advise to you is, if you want to start down this road be prepared to spend some dollars. The older the Corvette the more expensive it will be. The ZR-1 will be the L-88 or L-89 when it is a few years older. Remember the big block cars started out and 5,000 to 6,000 not long ago. Now look at their value. The ZR-s and the ZO-6's are going to be just like those corvettes. If you need any additional info just e-mail me.

Ed 93 Ruby #384
Stock
Going to NCRS for judging April 2007, Las Vegas, Nv.

[RICKYRJ1]

Ed, The judge pay-off comment was a joke! If you look back at the posting date, it was post Super Bowl. There was a on going rant about the game. How did you find out I live in Na Na Land? The NY Times? :mrgreen: Good luck with your car :cheers:

[taximan1]

Ed is right on with his comments.

I have been an NCRS judge for 2 years now, and a member for 15 years. It is a very worthwhile and informative organization, and plays a huge part in the history and future of Corvette.

I have had 3 Corvettes flight judged over the last 15 years, a 66, a 63 SWC, and currently a 67 BB. I have had a 93 40th annv. ZR1, and a yellow 94 zr1. I regret selling them both, thats why I just purchased a 94 Torch zr1.

I would highly encourage zr1 owners to consider participating in the NCRS. We need new people coming in with knowledge and desire to grow the C4 segment (especially zr1,s) of NCRS.

NCRS is not for everyone. But it is an organization with a lot of good, friendly people that put in a lot of time to this hobby. Don't be scared away by stories of some "super anal" individuals that want to criticize your car like its a piece of crap. There are some of these people in NCRS judging, but fortunately they are the extreme minority.

Ed, good luck on your Duntov award journey. That is certainly a very respected and difficult level to obtain. I only made it to regional top flights on my cars. Unfortunately, with midyears, to go to national level TF requires serious coin for rare items.

[Ed Hoffman]

Amen to that taximan. Oh to have the split window again. Now for Ricky, I knew it was not stated in a serious tone. What I wanted to let the rest of the folks know is, we in NCRS are attempting to draw in the younger group. We, myself included, are the way over the hill gang. All of NCRS wants to pass the torch. Those of us who are long in the tooth, want to teach the razor tothed guys and girls for only one reason. We want the greatest sports car in the world, made in America, to last. By passing the torch we can go to the big Sebring in the sky, knowing all is well and in good hands.

[Kevin]

I'm 24 and I've been involved with the NCRS for many years. I'll say this, it is not for me. I'll judge cars but I'll never put my car through that rigmarole. When it comes to the motor paint you're going to loose points either way. It won't look like it came from the factory and it won't be in a nice condition so you loose points no matter what.

Just PC the damn thing and call it a day.

[RICKYRJ1]

Amen to that taximan. Oh to have the split window again. Now for Ricky, I knew it was not stated in a serious tone. What I wanted to let the rest of the folks know is, we in NCRS are attempting to draw in the younger group. We, myself included, are the way over the hill gang. All of NCRS wants to pass the torch. Those of us who are long in the tooth, want to teach the razor tothed guys and girls for only one reason. We want the greatest sports car in the world, made in America, to last. By passing the torch we can go to the big Sebring in the sky, knowing all is well and in good hands.

I feel ya :handshak: The older guys do have to pass the torch to the next generation. NCRS is a positve force in the corvette world but a tough one to crack. I have a 95 ZR1 w/4000 miles, Not original battery, BB exhaust but do have the original to put back on, a hole cut into my upper radiator shroud ( previous owner) I have a new shroud but not all the stickers that go on it ( most are discontinued) Everything else has never been touched. If it stayed in its present condition except for more miles what would the judges give it? Don't worry I won't quote you on it. I'm just putting it out there for further discussion on this matter. It might give us younger guys a good frame of reference on what we are looking at when our cars are qualified to be judged. :cheers:

[taximan1]

1. Non original battery is 5 points
2. Non original exhaust would be a huge hit (around 85 points)
3. ypu would lose a few condition points for a cut shroud
4. missing or incorrect decals are usually 1 point each.

Remember, even if everything else is correct, you would probably lose condition points along the line. But you would probably sail through to a top flight. Probably somewhere between 96.5 to 98.0

[Ed Hoffman]

To all who read this message. NCRS gives all of the judged corvettes 4510 points to start with. Remember all 93-95 ZR-1's were built in 1993. The exhaust is no big thing to acquire, I have seen them on the net for a few hundred dollars, I know of three systems right here in Las Vegas. Most of the lables will or have been reproduced by after market sources. If not do what I did, go on the NCRS Tech Net and see if anyone has the items. You would be surprised. I just found an NOS PF-970C, still in the original box, oil filter. It was'nt $11.00 like the new replacement, but was very reasonable. That is now, wait until 2008 when all of the ZR's will be accepted for judging by NCRS, the price for everything will go up. An example is, the matching four barrel carbs for my 57 cost $56.00 from 1957 thru 1970's. That is $25.00 each plus tax. A set of those carbs, on an original Intake manifold, with the original air cleaners, and thermostat housing costs around (NOS) $5,000.00, thats inflation, and lack or parts. You figure there was 6,336 1957's made and 6,600+ ZR-1's made, all you have to do is the math. Like I have said in another thread, the ZR will be the way of the BB 427 of the 60's and 70's. Check out those figures at Barrett-Jackson, wow.

[taximan1]

Well said,

The bottomline is this. No matter what any of us think about NCRS, or "NCRS type" shows, the value of all of your zr1 's in the future will be determined by condition and originality. No other organization in the world sets the standard to knowledgeable Corvette buyers, like the NCRS.

Think about it... in 10, 15, 20 years and beyond, you will have the most limited production, full VIN produced Corvette since the 1953 Corvette. When investors, or plain old buyers for that matter, look for these cars in the future, they are going to look for originality, and condition. They won't care how reliable a particular zr1 was when SCCA raced, or how fast another did the quarter mile with a LPE makeover. They will want originality, and condition. It has been that way for every Corvette since 1953.

This doesn't mean that anyone who cusomizes or races their zr1 is wrong. They are not. Their is no right or wrong answer. If a zr1 gives its owner many years of pleasure by beating it down a 1/4 mile track, then that owner made the right choice. If an original owner is a big time "waxer", then that works for him.

If you don't care what your zr1 is worth down the road, then none of this matters. If you do care, you have to realize that the NCRS is extremely well respected as one of the ultimate sources of value (ie. originality and condition).

[Kevin]

Well said,

The bottomline is this. No matter what any of us think about NCRS, or "NCRS type" shows, the value of all of your zr1 's in the future will be determined by condition and originality. No other organization in the world sets the standard to knowledgeable Corvette buyers, like the NCRS.

Think about it... in 10, 15, 20 years and beyond, you will have the most limited production, full VIN produced Corvette since the 1953 Corvette. When investors, or plain old buyers for that matter, look for these cars in the future, they are going to look for originality, and condition. They won't care how reliable a particular zr1 was when SCCA raced, or how fast another did the quarter mile with a LPE makeover. They will want originality, and condition. It has been that way for every Corvette since 1953.

This doesn't mean that anyone who cusomizes or races their zr1 is wrong. They are not. Their is no right or wrong answer. If a zr1 gives its owner many years of pleasure by beating it down a 1/4 mile track, then that owner made the right choice. If an original owner is a big time "waxer", then that works for him.

If you don't care what your zr1 is worth down the road, then none of this matters. If you do care, you have to realize that the NCRS is extremely well respected as one of the ultimate sources of value (ie. originality and condition).


The NCRS is not the be all end all of vette knowledge. I can garuntee that there are people on this site that know more about the ZR-1 than what is in the manuals. There are many things that need to be changed out to help the car run better than the way it left the factory. Besides pumping money into the ZR-1, GM did very little to help the ZR-1. Hell you can make a 570 rwhp ZR-1 look stock save the powder coating of the plenum/cam covers. There was so many of these cars that were/may have/ could possibly have been worked over at the factory that no one actually knows what is from the factory and what isn't.

[Jeffvette]

The NCRS is not the be all end all of vette knowledge. I can garuntee that there are people on this site that know more about the ZR-1 than what is in the manuals. There are many things that need to be changed out to help the car run better than the way it left the factory. Besides pumping money into the ZR-1, GM did very little to help the ZR-1. Hell you can make a 570 rwhp ZR-1 look stock save the powder coating of the plenum/cam covers. There was so many of these cars that were/may have/ could possibly have been worked over at the factory that no one actually knows what is from the factory and what isn't.

I agree with that. I have torn down numerous LT5's and have noticed date stamping on these cars is not the norm. As most of the parts were made in a one time batch and then made no more. Pretty cool to see a 92 LT5 with a date stamp from 89' on the injector housing. JIT production really throws a monkey wrench into things. How is the NCRS going to account for somebody who has added Dunn heads to a 95 model that didn't have them originally. What's the paperwork that is going back the judge up on that one?

I can also throw done a few different injector housings that are brand new and do not have any paint match.

Kevin does bring up a good point on porting. If NCRS wants bone stock true to the delivery floor representations, you're not going to get that. Some of the later cars recieved special touches.

[taximan1]

I don't disagree with anything either of you have said. I can guarantee that people on this forum, and people like Marc Haibeck could make huge improvements in the ZR1. But thats not what NCRS is all about. Their goal is simple, "preservation and presentation of the car as it left the factory". And that is not a perfect science either.

I remember about 15 years ago at Carlisle talking to a St. Louis factory line assembler who was there with Zora Duntov. He was chuckling at the NCRS flight judging going on next to the main pavillion. He said he didn't know how they could judge tthings like bolt patterns and markings, when in 1962 he was sent to the local hardware supplier to pick up bolts and screws for the last remaining 1962's being built before the model changeover.

Unfortunately people who put a lot of time and money in customizing their ZR1's will have to understand that they will suffer financially in the future for it. Thats not a criticism, just a fact. I have all the admiration in the world for guys that have the know how to take a sophisiticated machine like that and make it even better.

[Ed Hoffman]

Taximan, I also agree with part that has been said. I would like to add one more thing to this set. The LT5 motors were not built at the "GM Factory". I have talked to some of the motor techs at the Mercury Marine plant. They were very proud bunch of men and women. They had a work ethic that was far and above the UAW workers at Bowling Green, or St Louis. Kevin is also right. I was involved in the racing end of early Corvettes and had a lot of fun. I held the national record for C and D modified sports(IHRA) and C and D Gas(NHRA). I took a stock 327 to 331CI, Isky Flat tappet cam(505), Forgedtrue Pistons, Crankshaft Co Crank, 461 Heads with Olds 2.30 intakes and 1.7 exhaust, two bolt mains, Dough Triy headers, stock T-10, and 5.12 rear, pulling 27" tall, 11 D-4 Goodyears. The record was 9.96 at 143MPH. Try that in a 5.7 LT5. My point is that car lasted for two years before I crashed due to poor technology in the chassis. If I had kept the car as is today my $1800 investment and 5,000 in go fast stuff, would be worth between 75,000 to 100,000. It was an original Fuely car and I sold the FI unit for $100.00. I think wisdom is a time thing. I talk to guys that have said over and over, woulda, shoulda, coulda. If I had only known then what I know now. If you are far thinking you will go far. I think about the young and old bull. Young-lets run down and get one of those cows. Old-lets walk down and get them all. Keven, have fun with your ZR, but remember there were not a "lot of them made". There were 5,000+ 375Hp ZR,s and 1344 405Hp. There were 6,700+ 93 40th Annv. vettes made and 243 40th Annv ZR-1 vettes made. I know what is going to be worth big money. Thats the advantage of being an old bull. Have fun and so will I.

[Kevin]

Keven, have fun with your ZR, but remember there were not a "lot of them made". There were 5,000+ 375Hp ZR,s and 1344 405Hp. There were 6,700+ 93 40th Annv. vettes made and 243 40th Annv ZR-1 vettes made. I know what is going to be worth big money. Thats the advantage of being an old bull. Have fun and so will I.
you do realize that half of the production run of ZR-1s in 93 were ruby ZRs, correct? It's not that rare. And again, how are you going to check for ported heads/plenum/injector housings? Have the owner pull the plenum at the judging? Most owners won't know how to do that and the ones that do know, won't do it. What about injectors? Like I said, I could pass a 570 hp 415 ZR-1 off as stock and as long as I don't fire that bitch up, you'd never know it. I wonder how many ZR-1's still have the leaky stock oil lines. I guarantee I could have you go over my car and you wouldn't find half of the stuff I've done to it just by looking at it.

And with the windshields, that is just going to be a pita. Most of the owners now didn't buy a ZR-1 because it's the next collectible corvette, we bought them because we love to drive the hell out of them. I have 52,000 hard and happy miles on my car and it's running better every day. IMO NCRSing C4's and later is a waste of time.

[taximan1]

Rare is a relative term. Most people would agree that a 1967 Big Block is a relatively rare car. There were over 9,600 1967 BB Corvettes built.

Only part numbers that are easy to get to are checked. transmissions(transaxles) are not checked. Obviously many engine parts can't be checked.

Your right, the delaminating windshields will present a problem for a lot of people.

To give you an example, my uncle bought a 67' Corvette 427/400hp in 67 to do one thing: go fast, and race the crap out of it. The fartherest thing from his mind was collectability. But guess what.... 2 years ago he was in bad health, and forced to sell his car. He was disappointed in the value it would bring with its tubbed out fenders, race chopped interior, missing pass. seat, etc. So he had it restored , top flighted the car at a chapter meet, and sold it for almost 3 times what he was offered a year before. He made money even after the restoration.

My point is, that someone will eventually buy all the race equipped zr1's and restore them.

[Kevin]

My point is, that someone will eventually buy all the race equipped zr1's and restore them.

there were only a few race preped ZR-1's and the most well known one is sitting in the NCM. It will be a sad day when people will start demodding big cube ZR-1s.....if that can even be done.

[Ed Hoffman]

Kevin, I really like the fire in your words. You sound a lot like me when I was your age. To answer your questions in a specific manner. Yes there were 243 Ruby ZR-1,s out of the 448 produced. You have to put that into a more specific perspective. Out of all the 6,900+ ZR-1,s that is 243. Do the math, out of 60,000+ 1967 to 1971 there were over 6,000 big blocks made. They are now 25 to 30 years old and not one of them have sold for under $150,000.00. I don't know how much you spent on your 375Hp, nor do I know how long you plane on keeping it, but all ZR-1 cars are increasing in value at the rate of 7 to 10 percent per year. My car (Window Sticker) was $71, 367.90. It went down to 25,000 to 30,000 from 1993 to 2004. It began to rise at the rate I indicated in 2005. The value of a 93 405Hp Ruby is now at 47,600,\. Kevin do the math. You own an original first year ZR-1, that has a value in itself. the first big block was a 1966 396-425Hp Vette. They are averaging 200,000 to 225,000 because they were the first year. Even if you don't like or subscribe to the NCRS doctrine their idea is simple. Keep it stock appearing and you will make money on your investment. Now lets go to the Dunn heads. In 1994 the company that was producing the LT5 heads went out of business(an english company) Mercury Marine contacted Lotis in England and were told that the Dunn Co. could finish the production run. In 1994 some of the ZLT5 motors had right hand Malie heads athe the left side were Dunn heads. For the remainder of the run, 1995, the heads were made by Dunn. What you might not know is all of the 1993 to 1995 LT5 motors were built in 1993. The last engine built was on Nov 21, 1993, at 1:30 P.M. and the last four of the engine number was 0003. Hows that for obscure information. Kevin if you would like to know anything else about the LT5 motor I have a lot more. Like what was the broom stick used for in the delicate measurment on the LT5 motor at Stillwater, Oaklahoma, home of Mercury Marine.

[Kevin]

Kevin, I really like the fire in your words. You sound a lot like me when I was your age. To answer your questions in a specific manner. Yes there were 243 Ruby ZR-1,s out of the 448 produced. You have to put that into a more specific perspective. Out of all the 6,900+ ZR-1,s that is 243. Do the math, out of 60,000+ 1967 to 1971 there were over 6,000 big blocks made. They are now 25 to 30 years old and not one of them have sold for under $150,000.00. I don't know how much you spent on your 375Hp, nor do I know how long you plane on keeping it, but all ZR-1 cars are increasing in value at the rate of 7 to 10 percent per year. My car (Window Sticker) was $71, 367.90. It went down to 25,000 to 30,000 from 1993 to 2004. It began to rise at the rate I indicated in 2005. The value of a 93 405Hp Ruby is now at 47,600,\. Kevin do the math. You own an original first year ZR-1, that has a value in itself. the first big block was a 1966 396-425Hp Vette. They are averaging 200,000 to 225,000 because they were the first year. Even if you don't like or subscribe to the NCRS doctrine their idea is simple. Keep it stock appearing and you will make money on your investment. Now lets go to the Dunn heads. In 1994 the company that was producing the LT5 heads went out of business(an english company) Mercury Marine contacted Lotis in England and were told that the Dunn Co. could finish the production run. In 1994 some of the ZLT5 motors had right hand Malie heads athe the left side were Dunn heads. For the remainder of the run, 1995, the heads were made by Dunn. What you might not know is all of the 1993 to 1995 LT5 motors were built in 1993. The last engine built was on Nov 21, 1993, at 1:30 P.M. and the last four of the engine number was 0003. Hows that for obscure information. Kevin if you would like to know anything else about the LT5 motor I have a lot more. Like what was the broom stick used for in the delicate measurment on the LT5 motor at Stillwater, Oaklahoma, home of Mercury Marine.


Ed, you havn't told me anything I don't already know. I've had my car since late 1999 when I was 17 and the car was $27,000 with 22,000 miles on it. I've put 30,000 miles on it durring the time I've had it and most of them have occured north of 3,000 rpms. As I said, I've done the NRCS judging schools and such till I got too busy with my degree and I had to move a few hundered miles from home. I'm aware of what the NCRS is and what it does, and and I hope that most ZR-1 owners keep driving and modding thier cars over the NCRS route. That's not what these cars where designed for.

[Jeffvette]

the first big block was a 1966 396-425Hp Vette. They are averaging 200,000 to 225,000 because they were the first year.

Shouldn't that be 1965 for the big block with 66 being the first year of the 427?

[Jeffvette]

Now lets go to the Dunn heads. In 1994 the company that was producing the LT5 heads went out of business(an english company) Mercury Marine contacted Lotis in England and were told that the Dunn Co. could finish the production run. In 1994 some of the ZLT5 motors had right hand Malie heads athe the left side were Dunn heads. For the remainder of the run, 1995, the heads were made by Dunn. What you might not know is all of the 1993 to 1995 LT5 motors were built in 1993. The last engine built was on Nov 21, 1993, at 1:30 P.M. and the last four of the engine number was 0003. Hows that for obscure information. Kevin if you would like to know anything else about the LT5 motor I have a lot more. Like what was the broom stick used for in the delicate measurment on the LT5 motor at Stillwater, Oaklahoma, home of Mercury Marine.

Mahle was the piston manufacturor. In fact they are still in business and make a nice replacement LS1 piston. Birmal is the head manufacturor you are looking for.

Birmal got out of the LT5 cylinder head way before 94.

[Jeffvette]

The value of a 93 405Hp Ruby is now at 47,600,\. Kevin do the math.

The value that you place on your Ruby and the actual price paid will probably be vastly different. Throw it up on the open market at 47,600 and see how many people come tire kicking.

[Ed Hoffman]

You are right Jeff, I was typing so fast that my mind was one year behind my fingers. First year for the 427 was 1966. In fact the part # for the 396 425 HP engine was 3856208 and the 425Hp 427 was 3873858. Hows that for detail. Yuk-Yuk.

[Ed Hoffman]

Regarding the value of the 93 Ruby, first you have to find one. Second when you do the mileage has to be below 20,000. I found two, both in Ca. One with 12,000 and it went for 41,600. The second one had 16,000 and I bought that one. I did not pay 46,600, but it was close to 34,000. Face it I got a deal and I know it. Look at the adds anywhere and see how many Ruby Zr,s are for sale. The 90 Zr,s are asking between 28-34K, with 20 to 30K miles. One I saw had 900 miles and it was offered for 38,000. Thats beats 12K for most C-4 basic vettes from 87 to 95. Oh and by the way more Rubys were sold in Ca., 31 to be exact, than any other state. According to the ZR-1 registry my ZR is the first one to leave Ca for Nv. In Nv only two exist and both came from out of state. All Ruby ZR are accounted for according to the registry. The value of any ZR is determined by the lack of product and the desire of the public. History is the best lesson, do you agree.

[Jeffvette]

Regarding the value of the 93 Ruby, first you have to find one. Second when you do the mileage has to be below 20,000. I found two, both in Ca. One with 12,000 and it went for 41,600. The second one had 16,000 and I bought that one. I did not pay 46,600, but it was close to 34,000. Face it I got a deal and I know it. Look at the adds anywhere and see how many Ruby Zr,s are for sale. The 90 Zr,s are asking between 28-34K, with 20 to 30K miles. One I saw had 900 miles and it was offered for 38,000. Thats beats 12K for most C-4 basic vettes from 87 to 95. Oh and by the way more Rubys were sold in Ca., 31 to be exact, than any other state. According to the ZR-1 registry my ZR is the first one to leave Ca for Nv. In Nv only two exist and both came from out of state. All Ruby ZR are accounted for according to the registry. The value of any ZR is determined by the lack of product and the desire of the public. History is the best lesson, do you agree.


So between those two purchases that puts the median prices at 37,800. Far cry from your 47,600. I would expect California to have the most Rubies, as they have the most ZR-1's. Following would be Texas, Florida, New York.... maybe Michigan after that.

Any thoughts on the ruby car for sale on the registry site right now? Has under 6,000 miles and is asking only 40,000.


No comment on Birmal/Mahle?

[Ed Hoffman]

Jeff, the figure comes out of an estimate published in the registery. I do not recall the writer, but it was his estimates. Check the registery for that info. As far as the 6,000 mile car, who knows unless you see the car close up. It may be perfect or it may have gone the way of the road racer and been thrashed. Each car stands on it's own merits. What kind of a comment do you want regarding Birmal, they made heads and Malhle made pistons. Ok.

[RICKYRJ1]

1. Non original battery is 5 points
2. Non original exhaust would be a huge hit (around 85 points)
3. ypu would lose a few condition points for a cut shroud
4. missing or incorrect decals are usually 1 point each.

Remember, even if everything else is correct, you would probably lose condition points along the line. But you would probably sail through to a top flight. Probably somewhere between 96.5 to 98.0

dumb question but why would I lose condition points? I have the original exhaust( mint cond ) bubble wrapped and sealed and the car is in mint condition. It will never see rain. My lack of time does not allow me to put many miles on so mileage will always be low. Wouldn't somebody offer all the proper decals in the future? How about a repro. battery? How many points for the oil filter? I have an original black stock one. Thanks for your time and knowlegde. Rick

[taximan1]

You mentioned that you had a cut shroud. That would be a deduction for condition. In addition, any car with more than about 5,000 miles on it, will naturally have some detrioration of components. Unfortunately, even zr1's with 500 miles on them will take a hit for delaminating windshields.

I am not sure if anyone has yet made an exact repo battery. Ed, you may know that.

An incorrect oil filter would be 2 or 3 points.

[Kevin]

The bottom line in this is that the ZR-1 was never designed to sit around and collect dust. It was designed to be run hard and often. The more it sits around the more things will go wrong with it. When you go to PV test the car, secondaries won't work, the car won't run correctly and any number of other things.

[RICKYRJ1]

You mentioned that you had a cut shroud. That would be a deduction for condition. In addition, any car with more than about 5,000 miles on it, will naturally have some detrioration of components. Unfortunately, even zr1's with 500 miles on them will take a hit for delaminating windshields.

I am not sure if anyone has yet made an exact repo battery. Ed, you may know that.

An incorrect oil filter would be 2 or 3 points.
Thanks for the info. I have a new shroud but do not plan on installing it any time soom. Sounds like you can drive yourself crazy trying to have a NCRS car. Going to lose points anyway so I will drive it and enjoy it :cheers:

[Ed Hoffman]

Ricky, you want to go crazy? Try restoring a 57 factory drag racer Vette. I spent a total of 5 years locating all the original parts, and in the restoration. My 93 will not cost anywhere near the 57. The only thing missing on the Ruby is the original oil filter and battery. Nobody I have contacted, including Restoration Batteries Company, will be restoring the original Delco Freedom 75-B 695 cranking amp battery. As I related on the NCRS net to a lot of folks, buy the current Delco for the ZR and take a few originality points. I have found, and purchased, two PF-970C, 155 part number. silver background, black lettering, from two different sources. They are not the e-Bay units which are mulit-colored early replacements. The current replacements that are available in the west, from dealers, are 970-C, blue in color. I hope you drive your ZR as much as I do. Every day I put a few more miles on it because it is so much fun to drive. The 57 is fun but it drives like a 29 Dodge Dump Truck. When it comes to braking in the 57, you have to first think about how far you have to stop, so you can begin to apply the brakes in time to avoid objects.. Not like th ZR, braking is right now. Oh, and one more thing I found out about the batteries. The tooling die's for the batteries in question are controlled by a company (EMI Delphi) and will not release them, or have destroyed them. Either way they have gone the way of the saber toothed tiger.

[collector96]

yes but it's not worth it.

as I said on cf
you will get condition points and loose originality or you will loose condition and keep originality.....If it was me judging I'd give you both since i know it's impossible to enjoy these cars and keep the stock finish looking perfect.

If it was me judging I'd give you both since i know it's impossible to enjoy these cars and keep the stock finish looking perfect

That is why YOU are not judging
The Judging system does not work the way you want it to,
It works the way it is supposed to
Quit trying to make up your own rules
If you do not like the rules have your car judged somewhere else
Ron
Retired BG and NCRS Judge

[Kevin]

If it was me judging I'd give you both since i know it's impossible to enjoy these cars and keep the stock finish looking perfect

That is why YOU are not judging
The Judging system does not work the way you want it to,
It works the way it is supposed to
Quit trying to make up your own rules
If you do not like the rules have your car judged somewhere else
Ron
Retired BG and NCRS Judge
Listen here little dog, you may want to go back at someone who gives a **** as to what you think. I've been involved with the NCRS for the last 7 years. I'm well aware of how the judging works and I know that it is up to the person judging to determine what points are taken away or given. Go waste your time trying to find some OEM leaking oil cooler lines. I'll go rip off a 7000 rpm shift.


Have a good day.





















:rolleyes:

[Corvette95]

I agree, there is no need for rude,smart a**, remarks on THIS forum.

[taximan1]

why can't we all get along ??

There really is room in "ZR1 World" for both groups.

I love drag racing and SCCA class racing. But I am also a card carrying NCRS member (since 1993), and have top flighted a few cars.

Both of these groups should be very much at home with ZR1's. Our cars are the ultimate go fast machines, and many argue thats what they were made for. I agree. And the more mods, the faster they wil go.

On the other hand, these are "relatively rare" cars that are an important part of Corvette history, and need to be preserved and nurtured, just like animals on the protected list. There are only 6,000 out there, and only 1,300 between 93' and 95'.

Lets respect each others passions, and how they chose to live them out.

Both groups have in common their love of the ZR1.

[Kevin]

6939 cars, but whose counting