Mercury Marine plant question

[LGAFF]

Did the Mercury Marine guys have ZR-1s at the factory? I am gathering that they did.

[LGAFF]

I have been e-mailing back and forth with former MM workers and family members of workers, at first I thought it was just a tall tail, but several of the kids of factory workers recall seeing the cars brought home.

One today told me she recalled a Camaro with an LT-5 in it, but she said she was very young at the time.

Pretty interesting stuff.

Here is the e-mail:


I have forwarded your information to my Dad. He was a senior manufacturing engineer at Mercury Marine for 20 years (1988 - 2008). He will have plenty of stories and information for you.

I seem to remember him bringing a camaro home with an LT-5 in it.....but I was pretty young so I don't remember much. I'm sure he will email you tonight or tomorrow.

:-)
Good luck!

[Jetjock]

Yeah, they did. There's a picture of one at the plant in the book The Heart Of The Beast. Also, Graham Behan had one while he was at Stillwater. This he told me last May at the Gathering. According to the book, they were prototypes.

[VetteMed]

I thought the MM plant workers were still bound by some triple-secret confidentiality agreement with GM, and forbidden from discussing the program?

[LGAFF]

These are all retirees...not sure how you bind them to an agreement.

[Hog]

These are all retirees...not sure how you bind them to an agreement.
Pension??
There are agreements that bind people to secrecy even after the retire/seperate from their jobs. I doubt GM is worrying much about guys from MM talking about much. All the stuff from MM is mid 80's technology. But GM still seems concerned about those dyno test results, so who really knows???

peace
Hog

[PhillipsLT5]

My understanding is that no public photos were to be taken inside plant, except the last day, I have a photo of wet vette and a ZR-1 inside plant

[GrayZ]

c'mon, bind them to secrecy ?? most are about 80 years old, what r u gonna do hide their depends ??

Lee what do you wanna know, just ask, if i don't know the real anwser i'll make somethin up..:fahne:

[LGAFF]

Just got an e-mail from one of the original Dyno testers....

[-=Jeff=-]

Just got an e-mail from one of the original Dyno testers....

AND???

[LGAFF]

He was happy to see people still care about the LT-5.....I was thinking maybe we can put up a mercury marine section, and let the former workers post about their experiences. Asked him if I could give him a call.


Glad to hear someone still has interest in the LT-5 Vetts. I was the orginal development dyno operator for the program 88-91 at the Mercruiser plant.
What would you like to know?

[JThomas]

Very interesting Cliff Hanger! :neutral:

[XfireZ51]

He was happy to see people still care about the LT-5.....I was thinking maybe we can put up a mercury marine section, and let the former workers post about their experiences. Asked him if I could give him a call.


Glad to hear someone still has interest in the LT-5 Vetts. I was the orginal development dyno operator for the program 88-91 at the Mercruiser plant.
What would you like to know?

Lee,

That's a super idea. We could have a Legacy Forum with these people providing their own stories from their participation in the ZR-1 project.

[LGAFF]

Got another E-mail, a section I think would be pretty cool:


I can help you out I was the lead-man/repair technician in the assembly area from start to finish of the project Send e-mail back or call me after 4PM

I checked Heart of the Beast, this guy is in the book

[tomtom72]

:happy1:

I think an MM section is a cool idea. Man Lee, you are like the electric company....you have connections all over the place!

:cheers:

[LGAFF]

Going to call this guy today, any specific questions you gus would like to know?

[Blue Flame Restorations]

I'd be interested in anything proto or pre-production. The earliest Phase motors.

[scholtmj]

Looks like I'm a little late, but if you're talking to the dyno operator you should ask about the numbers LT5's put out at Mercury vs. advertised power numbers. I'd be curious if he remembered any that had big numbers or were dyno dogs.

[xlr8nflorida]

Looks like I'm a little late, but if you're talking to the dyno operator you should ask about the numbers LT5's put out at Mercury vs. advertised power numbers. I'd be curious if he remembered any that had big numbers or were dyno dogs.

:iamwithst Agree 100%

[LGAFF]

Here's some of our discussion:

1)Dyno numbers....varied from 350hp to 400hp on the early motors, most of this had to do with ring seal/break in.....they said it takes 10-15K before a motor really was broken in and rings seated. GM has a % guideline that is accepted from engine to engine.

-He said compression was 210 pre break in but was well into the mid to upper 200s after break in

-Cam timing issue was also discussed

2)Early rings were a problem with blow by, 93-95 rings fixed that issues
-He mentioned if you used Mobile 1 to break in the engine, there seemed to be issues...regular oil seemed to be better in the first 15K miles.

-Also talked about Lotus not using exhaust valve seals
**It really seems that there were differences in opinion between the Lotus engineers and the guys at MM who had practical experience.
There is a bigger story to be told than what is in the HOB,

3)Cam shaft failures....more to it than someone at the plant over revving the motor....there was nearly "0" clearance on the cams, creating an oiling issues...this was fixed....many of the spare motors floating around were the motors with cam clearance issues.

4)The reason for the 8K RPM is not the chains, its the oil pan which would pressurize the motor, pushing all of the oil to the top of the motor, leading to overheating of bearings....7600rpm is the top sustained RPM.....attempts at 8K melted the bearings on some motors.

5)They did a "progressive" porting test starting at the air horn and recorded results as they moved throught the TB, Plenum, heads, etc. He has these recorded somewhere.

6)The oiling system actually creates a vacuum below 4500 and above 4500 it starts pushing everything to the top half of the motor, i will get more info on this

7)They did a lot of cam timing and cam testing on cars, they evenbuilt 3 race motors with solid lifter cams.

8)Apparently they too ruined a few heads porting them, to solve the issue they cut a few open to see where the ports were in relation to the cooling and oiling passages.

9)Only thing left over at the factory at this point is the dyno panels...the actual dynos are gone.

10)Still people with spare parts out there, DIS modules,prototype parts, etc.

11)There is no agreement with MM staff that prohibits them from discussing

12)He recalled 30 thou was the most a head could be milled, more than that allowed the chain to come loose.

12)I invited him to visit the registry and will be calling him back to do a more formal interview....he said he got out his thunder at stillwater tape and watched it after my note....you can really hear the passion these people have in their job. He told me he is not sure if he will visit the forum as there are alot of Chefs in the kitchen out there and it irritates him to hear people talk about things they really don't understand.

[LGAFF]

Going to send him copies of the CDs as a thank you.....although its tragic that GM dropped the LT-5. Although would weall be here today ...bench racing, and talking about the mystery of the LT-5 if it had continued?

[todesengel]

Wow, you seem to be spending a lot of time on this.

[Blue Flame Restorations]

Good stuff, Lee!!!

[scholtmj]

Very cool information! Thanks for sharing with the rest of us :handshak:

[ZR1Vette]

Good stuff! What about having some of the MM folks come to ZR-1/BG gathering next year? Have a discussion and Q&A session with them. Maybe a carrot is to have the Registry pay for their transportation and R/B?? Just a thought

[tomtom72]

Good stuff! What about having some of the MM folks come to ZR-1/BG gathering next year? Have a discussion and Q&A session with them. Maybe a carrot is to have the Registry pay for their transportation and R/B?? Just a thought

I'd be down with spending registry funds on that. Heck even if we had to pass the hat, I'd throw in some cash. Okay, a BFO just hit me. :o Does the registry contribute to travel expenses for people that we have speak to us at our gatherings? I know, I'm clueless...but humor me.:redface:

Hey lee, thanks man for taking the time to run down this stuff for us. :handshak:

I learned a little something from one of the points about oil....should have listened to the original owner of my car and it follows what info was floating around back in the 70's when syn oils first came on to the market. Oh well.

[LGAFF]

Aparently there were a few MM guys at this last gathering, a missed opportunity to capture some of the legacy...I agree would be cool.

[tomtom72]

Hey Lee, I was thinking about point #12 on your list.

My thoughts are that we have a lot of chefs because no one would help officially, or could maybe? So the guys that really tinker with these motors had to do reverse engineering all by themselves because GM kept all their knowledge close to the vest? Hence we have a lot of chefs?

Speaking for myself. I know I don't know much, and would sure welcome the information that the MM crew would like to share....at least we would be getting something from people that had resources at their disposal and had to solve stuff that came up during practical application....they weren't just drawing blue prints and making prototype motors.

I mean this as truly just speaking what's going thru my own head. I'm not trying to be a wise guy, and I'm not intending to disrespect any of our chefs.

Jingle Bells!
:cheers:
Tom

[LGAFF]

It sounds like they had a lot of ideas that fell on deaf ears......you can tell these guys really have passion and pride in their work, thats why I think its important to capture their story, the plant is going to close completely soon with ops moving to WI.

[threestar40]

Nice Thread.

Really enjoyed it.

Thanks for posting. Obviously, this was my favorite esp. point 12:

Here's some of our discussion:

1)Dyno numbers....varied from 350hp to 400hp on the early motors, most of this had to do with ring seal/break in.....they said it takes 10-15K before a motor really was broken in and rings seated. GM has a % guideline that is accepted from engine to engine.

-He said compression was 210 pre break in but was well into the mid to upper 200s after break in

-Cam timing issue was also discussed

2)Early rings were a problem with blow by, 93-95 rings fixed that issues
-He mentioned if you used Mobile 1 to break in the engine, there seemed to be issues...regular oil seemed to be better in the first 15K miles.

-Also talked about Lotus not using exhaust valve seals
**It really seems that there were differences in opinion between the Lotus engineers and the guys at MM who had practical experience.
There is a bigger story to be told than what is in the HOB,

3)Cam shaft failures....more to it than someone at the plant over revving the motor....there was nearly "0" clearance on the cams, creating an oiling issues...this was fixed....many of the spare motors floating around were the motors with cam clearance issues.

4)The reason for the 8K RPM is not the chains, its the oil pan which would pressurize the motor, pushing all of the oil to the top of the motor, leading to overheating of bearings....7600rpm is the top sustained RPM.....attempts at 8K melted the bearings on some motors.

5)They did a "progressive" porting test starting at the air horn and recorded results as they moved throught the TB, Plenum, heads, etc. He has these recorded somewhere.

6)The oiling system actually creates a vacuum below 4500 and above 4500 it starts pushing everything to the top half of the motor, i will get more info on this

7)They did a lot of cam timing and cam testing on cars, they evenbuilt 3 race motors with solid lifter cams.

8)Apparently they too ruined a few heads porting them, to solve the issue they cut a few open to see where the ports were in relation to the cooling and oiling passages.

9)Only thing left over at the factory at this point is the dyno panels...the actual dynos are gone.

10)Still people with spare parts out there, DIS modules,prototype parts, etc.

11)There is no agreement with MM staff that prohibits them from discussing

12)He recalled 30 thou was the most a head could be milled, more than that allowed the chain to come loose.

12)I invited him to visit the registry and will be calling him back to do a more formal interview....he said he got out his thunder at stillwater tape and watched it after my note....you can really hear the passion these people have in their job. He told me he is not sure if he will visit the forum as there are alot of Chefs in the kitchen out there and it irritates him to hear people talk about things they really don't understand.



Rick :usa:

[LGAFF]

Was thinking if I can draft questions and the Registry will have me, maybe I will write an article for HOB, maybe I can get some pics out of him

[LGAFF]

Some proposed questions:

1)Interview:
2)Title:
3)Tell us about your background in engine building and your career at Mercury Marine
4)Can you remember the first time you heard about the LT-5 project?
5)Who was involved in rolling out the project at Mercury Marine and who did you work with on the project? How was the team at Mercury Marine assembled (how were they chosen?)
6)Did everyone in the plant know about the project before it rolled out?
7)How did Mercury prepare for production?
8)Was there a GM presence at the plant before production? What about working with outside vendors?
9)Was a preassembled LT-5 brought into the plant prior to starting production, or did you simply receive the parts from the foundry? How was training conducted?
10)What was the reaction when you saw the LT-5 for the first time? What did you think when you first heard the power numbers and RPM range?
11)Did GM reps ever relay what they saw the LT-5 as?....Ferrari beater, etc?
12)When the project first started at Mercury was there a lot of waste in testing the assembly line and machining? How long from flipping the first switch did it take to be up and running?
13)What was the extent of Mercurys involvement in machining?
14)How many engines were scraped due to defects or not meeting dyno expectations, was the entire engine scrapped or disassembled and the non-rotating parts(plenum, etc) reused?
15)With Dyno testing, what were the typical results? Can you talk about what the testing entailed and what was checked at that time?
16)With Dyno testing can you talk about typical faults and failures? Whats the Weakness of the LT-5?
17)Can you tell us about the cam failures, were those only seen at the factory or was there more to the failures?
18)During your experience, what was the most interesting thing you saw during the LT-5 development?
19)Based upon our prior conversation it seems that there was a lot of performance testing searching for HP improvement. Who coordinated these test, was it Mercury in house or GM backed? Where was this leading to for the LT-5?

20)HP and engine Performance: talk about pefromance testing failures and successes with the LT-5
-Porting
-Cam timing
-Engine Oiling
**Suggested fixes?
Increasing Compression: How was higher compression achieved? Whats the maximum a head could be ported?
-Cooling: Its documented that sustained max RPM runs leds to cooling system cavitations, was this a known issue
-Was forced induction ever considered
21)Who worked on the performance projects? Where there specific projects and goals: Racing Engines, high performance parts(one offs)
22)Did the team at Mercury play a role in the 24hr Endurance Run? Discuss?
23)The black motors: what was done by Doug Rippie and what was done by Mercury Marine?
24)Where any of the test cars or production cars brought to the factory?
25)Who was the most impactful person that you remember from the project?
26)What was the feeling about when it was announced that the LT-5 program would cease? Was there ever an attempt to continue production as a crate motor from GM or Mercury? What was the cost of production of an LT-5? Was a 2nd Gen motor ever discussed?
27)How long did it take to shut down the program and switch over the facility?
28)What was done with the old equipment? Cam boring machine?
29)Were there a lot of excess parts? How much of that was scrapped or ended up going home with employees?
30)What did the LT-5 project mean to you and the team?
31)Where do you see the LT-5 in automotive history will it go down as a unique piece of history or an experiment in excess?
32)What was the teams relationship with GM and Lotus?