Dyno Sheet Petition [Archive] - ZR-1 Net Registry Forums

LGAFF

07-10-2010, 10:29 AM

There are several on line petition sites that are free or very reasonable in costs.....wondering if anyone is interested in pursuing this? I did write up a quick note to attach and certainly open to redrafting....

Hello,

I am a proud member of the General Motors family, an owner of a C4 Corvette ZR-1, as well as a member of the ZR-1 registry. As you know, the C4 ZR-1 holds a special place in both Corvette and GM history; the first DOHC Corvette motor, the 24hr endurance record at Ft. Stockton, as well a placing the Corvette in supercar status with the likes of Ferrari and Lamborghini.

As a member of the ZR-1 Registry, we continue as caretakers of this unique automotive icon. Over the years, as support for the ZR-1 has dwindled and parts become scarce, we have pooled our resources to manufacture our own gaskets, bearings, and other items required to maintain the Heart of the Beast.

We have also pooled our resources to continue the development of the LT-5 motor, including development of large displacement small block LT-5s that produce over 600hp. Other automotive enthusiasts are amazed as this 20 year old legend continues to compete with newer automotive technology.

Lastly, we are preservationist of history, collecting articles, preproduction pieces, as well as supporting NCRS restorations. However, one piece continues to elude us, the original dyno sheets from Mercury Marine, each one unique to each of the 6,939 ZR-1 LT-5 engines produced from 1990-1995. Currently, the dyno sheets are housed at the National Corvette Museum. We have been informed that GM forbids the distribution of these sheets to the public.

We are writing to you requesting that the dyno sheets be released, in copy form, to current owners of C4 ZR-1s so that we can add this final piece to the legendary puzzle. Certainly this is a great opportunity to generate revenue and support for the National Corvette Museum as well as display your support for caretakers of this unique piece of GM history.
We anxiously await your reply and thank you for your time.

secondchance

07-10-2010, 10:41 AM

Count me in!

tomtom72

07-10-2010, 10:49 AM

Man Lee nice writing talents! You are the Wordsmith!

Okay, I'm in. I would pay to obtain a copy of my motor's original MM test cell dyno sheet.

What do i do to support your efforts in this matter? Sorry if I'm a bit dense....but whom do I write to in support of your effort?

:cheers:
Tom

RUSSELL

07-10-2010, 10:52 AM

Count me in too!!

carter200

07-10-2010, 12:03 PM

:wave: me too

XfireZ51

07-10-2010, 04:06 PM

Well put!:cheers:

bdw18_123

07-10-2010, 04:21 PM

I'm in! :thumbsup:

PhillipsLT5

07-10-2010, 07:35 PM

You write well, lessons from JVD?
I'm in

vettn71

07-10-2010, 08:28 PM

Lee

I'm in all the way. I spoke with Johnny Downs, the Board member representative for the Lone Star Corvette Club to the NCM. Johnny said he would ask around, and if owners are willing to pony up the dollars, he doesn't know why the NCM wouldn't work something out

Jim

ZZZZZR1

07-10-2010, 08:34 PM

Lee,

I've talked with the NCM extensively and said there is no way we can get them... (no matter how much we contribute)

Things might change in time, but I've brought it up for the past 2 years with no potential in sight.

I'd be happy to join up in the petition though!

:cheers:

David

threestar40

07-10-2010, 08:37 PM

flag2Very Nice writing. flag2flag2

BOB HDZ

07-10-2010, 08:45 PM

count me in too!

SharkPilot

07-10-2010, 10:00 PM

I'm in too. =D>

95 LT5

07-11-2010, 01:27 AM

In!

tomtom72

07-11-2010, 08:39 AM

Ltfive

07-11-2010, 02:11 PM

I'm in!

Can't wait to see it, and say "Ha! I got 381hp, what you got?!"

'Course, I'd probably be one of the low ones, but, so what? Just like to see it. Curiosity mostly.

jrd1990zr1

07-11-2010, 03:09 PM

Okay, if I am out of line writing this some one just tell me to shut up.

I feel like I am missing something here, and that I'm the only person that is missing whatever that "something" could be?

GM gave the dyno sheets to the NCN for safe keeping for posterity? I'm thinking that it's just like our window sticker and build sheet data? GM said "here you keep this stuff, we don't have the room or desire!"

GM didn't give the NCM the sheets, and some one pilfered them from GM and gave them to the NCM? I kind of doubt that.

There is an EPA/DOT/ some Federal law against divulging this info to the general public?

False advertising law suits? GM said 375 hp and the tests prove they missed low? I'll sign an affidavit absolving GM. I would even bet that I could get the O.O. of my car to do the same. This far down the road what's the big secret? I doubt anyone but us owners would like to have copies, and if it's less hp than advertised so what.

What am I not understanding about this situation?:o
Sorry that I'm so dense!

:cheers:
Tom

Tom probabily hit the issue right on the head. If one or more of the engines did not make the advertised HP then some attorney might get the bright idea fo file a class action lawsuit on behalf of all the owners and to collect a large legal fee.

I recently got a notice about a lawsuit brought for lawnmowers (OK, I am not trying to compare in that manner!!) for engines advertised for more HP than delivered.

Long story short it is pobabily an up-hill battle, but I am interested in signing the petition and would be willing to waive any rights to litigate on the issue.

John :cheers:

LGAFF

07-11-2010, 03:18 PM

The 99 Mustang Cobra had an issue were it was 15-20hp short of the advertised.....lawsuit ensued, but that was in 2000-2001, we are well over the statute of limitations by now and GM is no more....

Christ I am a part owner, don't I have a say?

hiperf406

07-11-2010, 06:58 PM

Count me in too.

HAWAIIZR-1

07-12-2010, 01:52 AM

Count me in too.

fahne

billybaloneey

07-12-2010, 08:46 AM

John Boothby

07-12-2010, 11:23 AM

Put me in too. I'd pay for a copy. 1990 #148

LGAFF

07-16-2010, 12:08 AM

Pulled from this website

This leads me to respond to another statement regarding the Dynomometer testing on the LT5 engine. Every LT5 was dyno tested and met the tolerances before it was shipped. The dyno sheets and tons of other data were given to the museum, in hopes it would be shared with the car owners.

Greg Van Deventer

Jim Nolan

07-16-2010, 11:29 AM

Good luck! I brought this subject up several years ago and got nowhere.

scholtmj

07-16-2010, 11:45 AM

I'll join in.

All the talk seems to be about the 375 hp engine being possibly short of its advertized horse power. Does this mean that the 405 hp LT5's were spot on, or nearly, and that copies of the dyno sheets are going to be easier to get?

The Motor Trend article that did top speed testing vs. Jay Leno's black Viper had the 405hp motor a little down on power according to the dyno chart. But who knows what correction factor they were using.

LGAFF

07-16-2010, 12:04 PM

I would find it hard to believe the 375hp cars were short considering that they ran the same or faster quarter mile times than later cars with 405hp, with minimal changes in body weight.

At some point they will release them.

Ccmano

07-16-2010, 04:28 PM

Count me in for #1723...
H
:cheers:

Blue Flame Restorations

07-16-2010, 05:52 PM

Isn't there a contact that worked on the LT5 Program at Mercury Marine that may have the data? Has anyone pursued this?

zrmynatt

08-12-2010, 08:41 PM

In the Spring of 1993, I was lucky enough to visit Mercrusier with Kurt Friedman president of Denison Industries, there I met Gary Cline for the first time, Kurt and I had driven up in my 92' Z and Gary got my VIN and looked up my dyno sheet it pulled a little
over the advertised H.P. at 6,389 R.P.M. Unforunately, I could not have a copy of my Dyno sheet, but I sure would like to have it now. Count me in !

AT T 2D

08-12-2010, 10:33 PM

Count me in.

LGAFF

08-12-2010, 11:34 PM

I have not forgotten about this, just a lot going on at work....I e-mailed Heinrecy to see if he had an opinion on who to send it to, but no response.

PhillipsLT5

08-13-2010, 12:08 AM

maybe JVD can point you in the right direction?

Paul Workman

08-13-2010, 06:05 AM

I have not forgotten about this, just a lot going on at work....I e-mailed Heinrecy to see if he had an opinion on who to send it to, but no response.

Ya know....You (we) at least deserve a response (from the NCM) - or some reasonable answer as to why not or time frame when this information would be made available...Much as operating the NCM costs, and all... I'm not trying to stir the pot (make that a big black kettle on a wood fire!), but "no answer" or just simply being ignored (to me) seems more than just a little rude, no?

Count me in: 90 #1202

P.

LGAFF

02-15-2011, 10:16 AM

Sent off this request to the National Corvette museum, lets see what happens.....

Request for information: LT-5 Engine
http://ext.yimg.com/ec?url=http%3A%2F%2Fexternal.ak.fbcdn.net%2Fsafe_i mage.php%3Fd%3D5abe816626c20f1c6ec3e3dac4e4bb01%26 url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fprofile.ak.fbcdn.net%252F hprofile-ak-snc4%252F41767_1021915514_7789_q.jpg%26logo%26v%3D 5&t=1297779239&sig=REt5ryNyyWpLTBNJQjmUKg--~B (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTFybDU1bnA0BF9TAzk3MTgwMDM0OARzZWMDbXNna GRyBHNsawN1c2VyBHNyYwN0cAR0YXIDcHVsc2UueWFob28uY29 t/SIG=11ndsc5ao/**http%3A//pulse.yahoo.com/_55NKNMUU4HF2QV34SSSEHHX56I) From:Lee Gaffigan <leegaffigan@yahoo.com>

Add to ContactsTo:betty@corvettemuseum.org
Hello,

I am a proud member of the General Motors family, an owner of a C4 Corvette ZR-1, as well as a member of the ZR-1 registry. As you know, the C4 ZR-1 holds a special place in both Corvette and GM history; the first DOHC Corvette motor, the 24hr endurance record at Ft. Stockton, as well a placing the Corvette in supercar status with the likes of Ferrari and Lamborghini.

As a member of the ZR-1 Registry, we continue as caretakers of this unique automotive icon. Over the years, as support for the ZR-1 has dwindled and parts become scarce, we have pooled our resources to manufacture our own gaskets, bearings, and other items required to maintain the Heart of the Beast.

We have also pooled our resources to continue the development of the LT-5 motor, including development of large displacement small block LT-5s that produce over 600hp. Other automotive enthusiasts are amazed as this 20 year old legend continues to compete with newer automotive technology.

Lastly, we are preservationist of history, collecting articles, preproduction pieces, as well as supporting NCRS restorations. However, one piece continues to elude us, the original dyno sheets from Mercury Marine, each one unique to each of the 6,939 ZR-1 LT-5 engines produced from 1990-1995. Currently, the dyno sheets are housed in the archives at your facility, the National Corvette Museum. We have been informed that GM forbids the distribution of these sheets to the public, although I hope this is more folklore than fact.

I am writing to you requesting that the dyno sheets be released, in copy form, to current owners of C4 ZR-1s so that we can add this final piece to the legendary puzzle. Certainly this is a great opportunity to generate revenue and support for the National Corvette Museum as well as display your support for caretakers of this unique piece of GM history. Although we are a small group, we have continuously supported the National Corvette Museum, including raising nearly $15K for the motorsports park fund.

We anxiously await your reply and thank you for your time. If you are unable to authorize our request, please let me know who we might contact to request the release of this information.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Lee Gaffigan
Crystal Lake, Il
__________________
LGAFF
90 #966-135K miles
92 #234 $

tomtom72

02-15-2011, 10:27 AM

very well written Lee! I hope that they answer you so that we all can get a sense of how easy or difficult this request will be to get done.

:cheers:
Tom

P.S. do you know the cylinder head port size for the primary & secondary ports? I looked in the FSM and either I'm blind or it's not listed? TIA!

LGAFF

02-15-2011, 07:11 PM

Here is the response from the NCM......Looks like I will need to call a few folks at GM, I know someone that worked for me in MI, his wife was the admin for a GM executive....will see who it is and if I can get anywhere with that....

Nothing would please us more than to release the dyno sheets?.. BUT GM forbids this. We have approached many ? Joe Spielman, Jim Minneker, Harlan Charles, Rick Bladick, Tom Wallace and the list goes on --- still no luck. Last May Jim Minneker said he would go to GM Legal again but so far it has not done any good --- the brick wall is still there.

02-15-2011, 08:01 PM

"Nothing would please us more than to release the dyno sheets?.. "

Nothing ?

DaveK

02-15-2011, 08:18 PM

"GM forbids this"

Is this old-GM or new-GM? I thought that old-GM didn't exist anymore in a legal sense or did I misunderstand what happened?

What about if we bombard them with copies of Lee's letter through the internet until someone get's sick of us and gives in?

Dave

Kevin

02-15-2011, 08:26 PM

so a company that my tax money bailed out won't allow a company that I pay to keep open to release something relates to a car I own. Sounds about right

as for a letter writing campaign they don't care. The ZR-1 is dead to them and has been for years. They don't care what the owners of some old car have to think about something that happened in the 80's.

PhillipsLT5

02-15-2011, 08:27 PM

Very well written
Keep trying, climb the long ladder
Did you contact Jim Van Dorn?

Blue Flame Restorations

02-15-2011, 08:29 PM

Count me in!

Me too!

LGAFF

02-15-2011, 08:58 PM

Just sent a note to Heinrecy on FB

LGAFF

02-15-2011, 09:22 PM

Mr. Hienrocket said to call David Caldwell, I will see if I can reach him.....

XfireZ51

02-16-2011, 08:54 AM

Lee,

Well said.

ScottZ95ZR1

02-16-2011, 09:28 AM

Thanks very much for taking the time to push the issue for us Lee.

rbidwell

02-17-2011, 03:03 PM

I just now seen this post. I will sign.

Ron Bidwell

Brillo1990

02-18-2011, 01:33 AM

I'd love to have the dyno sheet for my car, nice writing Lee and good luck with getting to the top of the food chain with the request.

LGAFF

12-29-2011, 11:08 AM

Hey lets start the party with this....lets send an e-mail to the GM heritage museum; gmhc@gm.com

Use your own title but include LT-5 and Dyno sheet.....lets see where we get......I have my e-mail as the contact but we can use a registry leader if you like

Hello,

I am a proud member of the General Motors family, an owner of a C4 Corvette ZR-1, as well as a member of the ZR-1 registry. As you know, the C4 ZR-1 holds a special place in both Corvette and GM history; the first DOHC Corvette motor, the 24hr endurance record at Ft. Stockton, as well a placing the Corvette in supercar status with the likes of Ferrari and Lamborghini; forging the way for the performance technology we see in the GM cars of today.

As a member of the ZR-1 Registry, we continue as caretakers of this unique automotive icon. Over the years as support for the ZR-1 dwindled and parts become scarce, we have pooled our resources to manufacture our own gaskets, bearings, and other items required to maintain the Heart of the Beast.

We have also pooled our resources to continue the development of the LT-5 motor, including development of large displacement small block LT-5s that produce over 600hp. Other automotive enthusiasts are amazed as this 20 year old legend continues to compete with newer automotive technology.

Lastly, we are preservationist of history, collecting articles, preproduction pieces, as well as supporting NCRS restorations. However, one piece continues to elude us, the original dyno sheets from Mercury Marine, each one unique to each of the 6,939 ZR-1 LT-5 engines produced from 1990-1995. Currently, the dyno sheets are housed at the National Corvette Museum. We have been informed that GM forbids the distribution of these sheets to the public.

We are writing to you requesting that the dyno sheets be released, in copy form, to current owners of C4 ZR-1s so that we can add this final piece to the legendary puzzle. Certainly this is a great opportunity to generate revenue and support for the National Corvette Museum as well as display your support for caretakers of this unique piece of GM history.

We anxiously await your reply and thank you for your time. In order to simplify your response, there is no need to reply to all of our e-mails, please send a single response to leegaffigan@yahoo.com (leegaffigan@yahoo.com).

Insert name here….

LGAFF

12-29-2011, 11:18 AM

sent mine....

LGAFF

12-29-2011, 11:39 AM

Come on who's with me....Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

Scrrem

12-29-2011, 11:55 AM

Mine is getting sent now...

Rich

avijay

12-29-2011, 12:00 PM

I'm in.

tomtom72

12-29-2011, 12:13 PM

Okay, I'll play. Do you want us to use your e-mail addy as a reminder that this is a group effort and only one reply is needed, right?

Also, do you want us to copy your letter, or may we write our own? I just don't want it to look odd to whom ever is going to be reading this stuff.

Okay, sorry for all the Q's:o

:cheers:
Tom

Ya know when I am at the Gathering this year I am going to find someone to ask, very politely, if a NCM member would be permitted to just see the sheet that belongs to their car. It may not work either, but if I can at least see my car's sheet I'd feel a little satisfaction.

Kevin

12-29-2011, 12:23 PM

the ncm can't legally, if I'm remembering the conversation I had correctly, release the information on the sheets because of the agreement they signed with gm. either way it's not a huge deal yeah it would be nice to see them but if I want to know what the car is producing i'd strap it down and run it myself

Mystic ZR-1

12-29-2011, 01:06 PM

Sent mine!
What the heck, this effort can't hurt... Maybe they all dynoed out above the rated horsepower? :cheers: I'm sure mine did... :blahblah:

tomtom72

12-29-2011, 01:11 PM

You're probably right Kevin. I just figure that as a NCM member they can only say "NO". They might even offer to say why, and that might make for a conversational opening....maybe? I am fairly sure that my motor was in with the group where they had to hurry to catch up with the demand on the 90 run. I suspect that mine is a bit anemic and probably scored low in the allowable output range. I'd like to know for sure to see how good my 'butt dyno' is....:sign10:

I just sent my letter, and it's not the same as yours Lee. I just gave them another slant is all. I pointed out that we have the only hand built motors ever offered in a GM car sold to the public. :neutral:

:cheers:
Tom

tomtom72

12-29-2011, 01:23 PM

Good Afternoon,

I am a member of the ZR-1NetRegistry. Our Registry is devoted to the preservation of the fourth generation Corvette ZR-1. Most of our members actually own one of these fine examples of GM's engineering prowess. I own a 1990 car number 2233. My particular interest in writing is to respectfully request that owners of this wonderful machine, having proved ownership, be allowed to obtain copies of their car's motor dyno test results.

In the realm of mass produced automotive motors our LT5 motors are a high water mark in that these motors were, and still are, the only hand built motors in any GM product for public consumption. I wish to be very clear that our LT5's were not just 'hand assembled'. LT5 components arrived at the Stillwater, Oklahoma Mercury Marine plant mostly as unfinished castings. Mercury Marine employees had to finish machine the major components and then assemble the motor. Once completed each motor was tested in an engine dyno test cell for performance verification and mechanical break in. Having passed it was then released to the Bowling Green plant for assembly into a ZR-1 chassis. As a consequence of this method of production each LT5 has a "birth certificate", it has a dyno test sheet. This dyno sheet was kept with each motor as it's own 'build sheet' and when it was joined to a ZR-1 chassis the chassis number was stamped on the motor at that time. This is a subtle point, but it completes the numbers matching documentation that all Corvettes enjoy to this day.

I would add that the National Corvette Museum has custody of these dyno test sheets as it is one of their preservation functions where the history of the Corvette is concerned. They are the guardians of all the original documentation of all Corvettes produced at the Bowling Green plant. I should think that as they offer reproduction window stickers and build sheets presently, they would be very receptive to augmenting their income stream with offering reproduction LT5 dyno test sheets.

I would close by thanking you for your time and for any assistance you could provide in our quest to complete the documentation of our ZR-1 Corvettes.

Respectfully,
Thomas Del Guidice thomastom72@aol.com

respond to: leegaffigan@yahoo.com

Okay so this is the direction that I chose to take with my e-mail. I hope it is enough on message with everyone else?

LGAFF

12-29-2011, 01:29 PM

This is just to get something started and get some attention....GM owns this museum I believe so maybe getting in touch with someone who understands the "heritage part would be a good start;)

A26B

12-29-2011, 03:03 PM

I recommend correcting the name of our organization to its proper form, ZR-1 Net Registry, instead of ZR-1 Registry.

LGAFF

12-29-2011, 03:36 PM

Noted Jerry, I shot a copy to Bob Lutz, he apparently still has an e-mail accnt at GM

PhillipsLT5

12-29-2011, 04:13 PM

Sent in mine, blind cc to you Lee, also great letter
Can JVD help with this?
At this point 20 years later Marc's sheet supersedes these sheets, but Provenance, from the French provenir, "to come from", refers to the chronology of the ownership or location of an historical object

HAWAIIZR-1

12-29-2011, 04:39 PM

Sent mine in too. :saluting:

XfireZ51

12-29-2011, 04:42 PM

Does anyone know if the service engines have dyno sheets? I am certain some of us have ZRs with motors swapped or having been replaced.

Blue Flame Restorations

12-29-2011, 05:07 PM

It would be nice to have it. I do have dyno sheets for most of the first 30 or so development PhaseI and some PhaseII engines.

LGAFF

12-29-2011, 06:04 PM

I believe every engine was tested before leaving the factory to ensure it made the +-10% of the 375.....as the engines were not broken in some were alittle low until the rings seated.

tomtom72

12-29-2011, 06:17 PM

All I know is that back in the old days, circa the late 60's thru the late 70's, when you installed a new cam set the break in instructions were usually 2200 rpm for at least 20 minutes.

Wasn't the test session on the LT5 more than that?

Kevin

12-29-2011, 07:54 PM

This was sent to me anonymously, I don't know anything about it other then the sender asked me to post it. As to what end I was asked I don't know. I don't know what car, I don't know what year, all I know is the motor didn't meet the hp #'s it was supposed to. Please don't email me asking where I got the picture or how the person who sent it to me got it. I won't answer the first and I don't know the answer to the second.

http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x438/lt5zr180/IMG_0672.jpg

A26B

12-29-2011, 08:13 PM

Well, I do know the guy who dyno tested that engine at Mercury! :-)

One thing thsat may have to be considered....
VIN was stamped on the engine at BG, not Stillwater
therefore
the dyno sheets will not have the VIN, but rather the Mercury SN
so
You would have to get the numbers from your engine to know which dyno sheet to request, if it ever becomes available.

LGAFF

12-29-2011, 08:57 PM

Dwayne Sharpton, he was there up until the end I believe.....cool

Note the Dyno sheet says built with pride in Stillwater....

Pretty close......

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q115/lgaff/mercruiser.jpg

Socalerv

12-29-2011, 10:09 PM

Sent mine in. Hope this comes to fruition.

brodykelly

12-30-2011, 10:01 AM

email sent..thanks brody p.

jimmac28

12-30-2011, 06:20 PM

I sent in my email, I with you guys.

Mystic ZR-1

12-31-2011, 10:08 AM

"...the dyno sheets will not have the VIN, but rather the Mercury SN..."

Where is the Mercury SN located?
Thanks!

mike100

12-31-2011, 10:57 AM

After what Ford went through with the under powered/ over estimated cobra mustang rating, I'm sure GM legal wants to keep those dyno sheets under wraps.

how low did some engines test and how many more miles would one need to get the compression fully seated?

Kevin

12-31-2011, 12:19 PM

from what i understand it was +- 10%...but from what i'm told the one that I was sent didn't make that and was still sent out

LGAFF

12-31-2011, 12:33 PM

If the car was broke in with regular oil rings seated quickly.....Mobile 1 was so good it took about 15K on some motors..thats why some get faster as the motor puts the miles on......

Better question.....anyone know of a slow ZR-1?

Aurora40

12-31-2011, 01:46 PM

After what Ford went through with the under powered/ over estimated cobra mustang rating, I'm sure GM legal wants to keep those dyno sheets under wraps.
The GM that built those cars, and the associated legal liability, officially died on December 15, 2011.

mike100

12-31-2011, 02:09 PM

The GM that built those cars, and the associated legal liability, officially died on December 15, 2011.

Excellent point, not to mention statute of limitations should apply as well.

A26B

12-31-2011, 02:43 PM

"...the dyno sheets will not have the VIN, but rather the Mercury SN..."

Where is the Mercury SN located?
Thanks!

On the driver side, engine block at the pan rail.

LGAFF

01-03-2012, 10:48 AM

I spoke to Jim very very nice guy, he talked with the head of Corvette Product planning......no one seems to know the "why"...Jim also mentioned that he has alot of drawings and things at the Museum that he is not allowed to share.

I will keep chipping away....I had sent a note to Bob Lutz also....

Lee,
I talked to the Corvette product planning manager about the dyno sheets. They will not release them. Sorry.

JIM VEHKO

LGAFF

01-03-2012, 10:57 AM

I don't know anything about emissions, but maybe there is something with federal emissions regs they do not want out???

tomtom72

01-03-2012, 11:09 AM

I guess there is a reason for any of the info that the NCM has not being made available for ZR-1 owners. I guess I would feel better if GM would say what it is that prevents the sharing? I am thinking that there could be engineering secrets they just don't want to have out in public view? I wonder how many other GM cars get treated like this? Or if they all get this treatment? Maybe it is a common industry policy not to share any internal engineering documents with anyone.
Thanks for trying Lee. :thumbsup:

Mystic ZR-1

01-03-2012, 11:26 AM

Come on who's with me....Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!

Is it over?

LGAFF

01-03-2012, 12:41 PM

Pulling Heinrocket into the mix on facebook......John Heinricy

Wonder when GM will serve the restraining order on me :-D

LGAFF

01-03-2012, 12:53 PM

Lets do a Facebook campaign....but lets get very organized, we need support of the other forums...

I was going to post a link to Pete car running 11s......with the title

Passion.... Innovation...... GM loyalty.......ZR-1 Net Registry...

WE DON'T JUST BUILD ROCKETSHIPS....WE PUT THEM ON THE MOON!

PLEASE SUPPORT OUR REQUEST TO GM TO RELEASE THE LT-5 DYNO SHEETS!

We then need to post it to the GM website and get every corvette forum member we can to "Like it"

LGAFF

01-03-2012, 12:55 PM

If you have a facebook page, go to John Hs and "Like" my comment!

LGAFF

01-03-2012, 01:35 PM

Is it over?

Nothing is over until we say it is....who is with me!

LGAFF

01-03-2012, 02:00 PM

Or Maybe we use We still build rocketships, only more so

Lets do a Facebook campaign....but lets get very organized, we need support of the other forums...

I was going to post a link to Pete car running 11s......with the title

Passion.... Innovation...... GM loyalty.......ZR-1 Net Registry...

WE DON'T JUST BUILD ROCKETSHIPS....WE PUT THEM ON THE MOON!

PLEASE SUPPORT OUR REQUEST TO GM TO RELEASE THE LT-5 DYNO SHEETS!

We then need to post it to the GM website and get every corvette forum member we can to "Like it"

tomtom72

01-03-2012, 03:56 PM

CORVETTE ZR-1

Rock, paper, scissors......MISSILE.

:cheers:

XfireZ51

01-03-2012, 04:36 PM

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor????!!!

LGAFF

01-03-2012, 05:49 PM

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor????!!!

Animal House Reference.......sorry Dom I forgot most of the films from your generation were silent...these talkies probably way too high tech for you:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8lT1o0sDwI

DaveK

01-03-2012, 08:00 PM

Don't see a comment to 'Like' :dontknow:

Erik

08-09-2021, 01:44 AM

Doing a little thread archaeology here.

Did this ever get sorted out?

LGAFF

08-09-2021, 08:03 AM

Response I got was they would like to, but they are forbidden from releasing.... probably never going to happen

Erik

08-09-2021, 08:19 AM

Response I got was they would like to, but they are forbidden from releasing.... probably never going to happen

Would they allow us to see them if visiting the museum? No make copies, but just see the records. They are just basically an archive, no?

-=Jeff=-

08-09-2021, 10:49 AM

Would they allow us to see them if visiting the museum? No make copies, but just see the records. They are just basically an archive, no?

Nope, not allowed to see them.. I asked when I was there this past July..

Erik

08-09-2021, 08:01 PM

Nope, not allowed to see them.. I asked when I was there this past July..

Thats just weird. Why the secrecy? How long will they be kept secret? Did we ever get an official answer from the museum?

-=Jeff=-

08-09-2021, 10:58 PM

Thats just weird. Why the secrecy? How long will they be kept secret? Did we ever get an official answer from the museum?

It is not the museums call to make, it is GMs I even said surprised it still holds because GM now is not the same GM from then

efnfast

08-10-2021, 06:56 AM

Betty at the museum showed me the box. "That box, right up there on the top shelf", but that was as far as it got.

Mystic ZR-1

08-10-2021, 10:55 AM

How could Betty resist your charming manner and boyish good looks?
😀

rush91

08-10-2021, 01:49 PM

Have the dyno sheets from other generations been released?

JThomas

08-10-2021, 05:44 PM

I know this is an old thread, but I would be willing to sign/add my name to the list. :thumbsup:

Neat

08-11-2021, 01:45 PM

I?m interested in a skunkworks style recovery mission of the data. Someone shoot me a message if clandestine skulduggery becomes an option.

Corvettes White

08-11-2021, 10:58 PM

Question for the lawyers out there.
Do the sheets belong to the old GM, pre BK or the new GM? If the old GM, what difference would it make for liability they are already broke? And if the new GM, did the assume the liability for damages resulting from publishing the sheets?
George

WARP TEN

08-12-2021, 12:04 PM

I would also like to see the dyno sheets and can't fathom why (or if) GM thinks that at this late date it would have any liability for the dyno outcomes from the early Nineties. However I also know that this thread was started by Lee in 2010 and has not affected GM's poston on this at all. So I am afraid I feel this needs to be relegated to the Dead Horse department. But if someone can get GM to move, I am all for it. --Bob

DRM500RUBYZR-1

08-13-2021, 02:14 PM

I?m interested in a skunkworks style recovery mission of the data. Someone shoot me a message if clandestine skulduggery becomes an option.

Where's our colleague, the late H2OGATE, when needed.
A good plumber is always hard to find..........................
:cheers:
Marty

XfireZ51

08-13-2021, 08:15 PM

A1990

08-13-2021, 08:59 PM

Betty at the museum showed me the box. "That box, right up there on the top shelf", but that was as far as it got.

Actually there are many boxes. In 2017, Mark and I visited with Betty and she got down a box and let us go thru it. There is a folder for each engine but the contents aren't the same in each. Some engines didn't make spect most did. Some folders had 15 pages and some had 1.

Sent from my iPhone using ZR-1 Net Registry (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90383)

Corvettes White

08-13-2021, 10:43 PM

Bob,

Not even the same corporation.

My question exactly. But which one?

Vette Guy

01-18-2022, 12:30 PM

Just to add what Dennis stated, many engines had multiple dyno sheets, separate pages of notes and other assembly information. The dyno sheets might have had 374 then 379 dyno pulls. Remember, green engines don't make as much power as ones broken-in; dyno pulls are a great way to break in an engine. That said, some engine's folders were missing much of the documentation that others had. While it may have contained only one dyno sheet showing 374, the sheet that exceeded 375 and other production notes were missing. I did speak to the former head of the MerCruiser Division, and he assured me that not one engine left the plant without reaching and/or exceeding the minimum required HP of 375 or 405 respectively, regardless of the consistency of the folders. He donated these internal documents to the NCM vs. destroying them upon termination of the program.

Now from a GM Legal standpoint, there's no doubt that they would open themselves up to legal issue and/or marketing issues should only one unhappy owner with possession of a substandard dyno sheet (even if it was not the last dyno sheet) bring suit or post throughout the internet that his/her LT5 was misrepresented by GM. They easy answer for GM is "NO", which protects them from this happening.

I do want to add that Dennis and I made sure that our LT5s were not included in the sampling of folders we viewed.

Regards,
Mark

spork2367

01-19-2022, 10:23 AM

Now from a GM Legal standpoint, there's no doubt that they would open themselves up to legal issue and/or marketing issues should only one unhappy owner with possession of a substandard dyno sheet (even if it was not the last dyno sheet) bring suit or post throughout the internet that his/her LT5 was misrepresented by GM. They easy answer for GM is "NO", which protects them from this happening.

What exact legal issue would they be opening themselves up to? Statute of limitations for most things have long expired and there is a long history of auto manufacturers fudging power numbers with little to no real legal action.

I work for an aviation engine manufacturer. Our certificated engines are required to make advertised HP. However non-certificated engines are not held to the same standards by the FAA. Ours are all listed with actual HP but other manufacturers skew their numbers by as much as 2-5%.

I'm not sure there is a legal requirement that exists for automotive applications in the 1990-1995 timeframe that they would have been in violation of had the dyno numbers showed a lesser number than advertised. While "false advertising" has no statute of limitations, the laches doctrine would probably get any litigation thrown out immediately. Car manufacturers globally lied about horsepower ratings for decades to skirt insurance companies which has way larger legal ramifications.

I'm just not sure the "legal" claim holds much weight 26 years later.