Emissions -- Bah Humbug!

[SoCalZR1]

Hello everyone. Before I get into the smog headache I just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Mike and I live in The OC. I am new to the forum but not to the Registry. Just looked, I have a registry sticker on my car from 1996. The sticker is okay but the car is not looking as good as back then. :-)

Anyway, the problem. The poor beast had been sitting around too much and I decided to get it back up to snuff. I replaced the bad fuel pumps and all 16 injectors. They were leaking bad and I almost had a hydraulic lock once. All seemed good after that. Went to get a smog check and then it was not as good. It almost passed but missed HC at 15 MPH.


HC
Max allowed: 77 (Max was 110 last time it was checked. Go figure!)
Measured: 115

Nox
Max: 541 (772 allowed last time)
Measured: 437


Went home empty handed. :mad:

Drained fuel, since it was old and filled with new; Cleaned and re-oiled K&N; removed DRM PROM and inserted stock; replaced spark plugs.

Since the car is 1990 it has to go to a "Test Only" station. Took it to a regular smog first and just had them do a pre-test. Numbers were great! HC was in the high 40s, NOX below 200. That was just eyeballing it.

Confidently returned to "Test Only" and the non english speaking, ignore that I am here dude and he ran it again.. FAIL:

Now HC was good but NOX failed:

HC
Max allowed: 77 (Max was 110 last time it was checked. Go figure!)
Measured: 70

Nox
Max: 541 (772 allowed last time)
Measured: 738

What gives?

I will say that the pretest was done in first gear at 15mph. The robot dude at "Test Only" says it should be second gear. Really!? Second gear for 15MPH? That means 1271 rpm.

Any ideas. Would new O2 sensors help (easy)? Why the sudden NOX problem? I know I changed a lot of variables after the first, but I can se the problem there.

Any ideas would be much appreciated.

[Coupe89]

Just an FYI. A pretest still gets sent to the state. Its the state way out. If you failed the test.

I'm working on mine to get pass smog also.
I noticed the test from the pervious owner that failed was at 1500 RPM's mine it a 5 ticks ocer on CO...

[SoCalZR1]

Just an FYI. A pretest still gets sent to the state. Its the state way out. If you failed the test.

I'm working on mine to get pass smog also.
I noticed the test from the pervious owner that failed was at 1500 RPM's mine it a 5 ticks ocer on CO...

They did not enter VIN info so probably no big deal. The good thing was they would heat up the cats and the run the test. Not sure if that made a difference. Interesting that I passed great at 1500, just not at 1271 at a different location.

Good luck on yours.

[C1ANDZR1]

Damn, I'm glad we don't have to deal with that crap in south Georgia.

[SoCalZR1]

Damn, I'm glad we don't have to deal with that crap in south Georgia.

Be real happy you don't!!!

[Coupe89]

One thing I noticed with mine. I dont have the stock chip.
That might be why I'm on the edge of passing.

Is you chip stock?

[SharkPilot]

I wonder if the calibration of the individual machine has anything to do with the varying readings?

In April my '91 passed fine and the limits had not changed since 2008.
The limits for HC were: 112 @ 15mph and 86 @ 25mph
For NOX it was: 778 @ 15mph and 717 @ 25mph
And for CO: 0.72 @ 15mph and 0.60 @ 25mph

I think I would try going to another location and make certain that they have the correct vehicle information entered. Years ago my truck failed miserably because they had the GVW set too low. Once that was fixed it sailed through just fine.

Like you I am in SoCal so we should have the same standards. It is supposed to be against Federal law to change the standards but I don't trust this state with anything. That being said, the numbers on my print-outs are indeed consistant.

I hope this helps,
Jim

[tomtom72]

:hello: Mike. Welcome back!

Do you have a scanner? I ask because it might be a good idea to do a closed loop scan @ idle to see if the O2's are getting lazy....along with seeing the fuel numbers and a few other data items.

Did you add a big bottle of techron to the fuel? That helps me pass the NYS smog inspection.

Off the top of my head, how are the coils and wires, PCV's? I hate to start guessing.

One thing is the CATs must be hot, if they do these tests with cold cats we don't fare so well.

:cheers:
Tom

[SoCalZR1]

I wonder if the calibration of the individual machine has anything to do with the varying readings?

In April my '91 passed fine and the limits had not changed since 2008.
The limits for HC were: 112 @ 15mph and 86 @ 25mph
For NOX it was: 778 @ 15mph and 717 @ 25mph
And for CO: 0.72 @ 15mph and 0.60 @ 25mph

I think I would try going to another location and make certain that they have the correct vehicle information entered. Years ago my truck failed miserably because they had the GVW set too low. Once that was fixed it sailed through just fine.

Like you I am in SoCal so we should have the same standards. It is supposed to be against Federal law to change the standards but I don't trust this state with anything. That being said, the numbers on my print-outs are indeed consistant.

I hope this helps,
Jim

Thanks for the input Jim. I am in Tustin so the 10 mile radius should mean the same limits. :-)

I was told that the standards changed a few months ago. It is a little hard to believe that we need to meet higher standard than last year, but this is California I guess. I also have tried to find that actual standards online without luck so far. I am going to try a different station and see what happens.

I think the one thing that is strange to me is that my NOX supposedly went up.

Thanks again.

Mike

[SoCalZR1]

:hello: Mike. Welcome back!

Do you have a scanner? I ask because it might be a good idea to do a closed loop scan @ idle to see if the O2's are getting lazy....along with seeing the fuel numbers and a few other data items.

Did you add a big bottle of techron to the fuel? That helps me pass the NYS smog inspection.

Off the top of my head, how are the coils and wires, PCV's? I hate to start guessing.

One thing is the CATs must be hot, if they do these tests with cold cats we don't fare so well.

:cheers:
Tom

Hi Tom,

I have a scanner (3120) but have frankly only used it in static mode. I am not sure if it does real time. I'l go check. Any recommendations on scanners if not.

I did not add any techron or other additive. It may be worth a try. I might swap out the O2 sensors just because they are inexpensive and 20 years old.

I have spark gap a bit high at 042. I might drop that to stock, but I doubt that matters.

In any case, thanks for the input, much appreciated!

Mike

[Z51JEFF]

Thanks for the input Jim. I am in Tustin so the 10 mile radius should mean the same limits. :-)

I was told that the standards changed a few months ago. It is a little hard to believe that we need to meet higher standard than last year, but this is California I guess.

I too have heard that the standards have changed.This doesnt seem right,how are these older cars supposed to keep up with tougher standards,remove them from the road?

[GOLDCYLON]

,how are these older cars supposed to keep up with tougher standards,remove them from the road?

Embrace Change

[SoCalZR1]

Embrace Change

You are funny!! ;)

[Z51JEFF]

Embrace Change

Embrace change my a$$.When you have your car planted in the garage because you cant drive it anymore,remember this.

[SoCalZR1]

Embrace change my a$$.When you have your car planted in the garage because you cant drive it anymore,remember this.

One way or the other this ZR-1 is getting on the road. But I agree, it is &$#&^%# change. Hard to believe they can change the standards required for a 20 year old car.

[ittlfly]

I'm going to PM you witha suggestion where you might want to take your car for some ''help'' in passing smog in the So Cal area. :wink:

[gbmidyear66]

Mike, an Innova 3120 will not read live data (e.g. O2 sensors) on an OBD 1 car :cry: - ask me how I know...

You need an AutoXray 6000 (for sure), or an Actron 9150 or a Craftsman 2500 (I believe the latter 2 will).

[SoCalZR1]

Mike, an Innova 3120 will not read live data (e.g. O2 sensors) on an OBD 1 car :cry: - ask me how I know...

You need an AutoXray 6000 (for sure), or an Actron 9150 or a Craftsman 2500 (I believe the latter 2 will).

I'm afraid to ask but I figured that was the case. I was looking at the AX 6000 since it is easy to get at a good price. It might help me pin down this problem. Thanks for the info.

[tomtom72]

:redface: Mike, I'm glad that some one had the answer about the scanner, because I didn't. That's weird. I thought all scanners read live data? Otherwise what's the use of the tool?

Look, I don't want to be a wise guy on this but the plug gap should be set back to OE specs for the testing. The techron will help keep the injector tips clean, I use it once every two months in my car.

Also, take out the PCV's and shake them. If they don't make a clear metallic clicking noise, change them out. Also, make sure the PCV rubber connections are air tight. Also, check the MAP hose for oil build up, that needs to be clean.

You are correct on the O2 sensors, at 20 yrs old they proly are a bit tired. I changed mine out for the same reason.

:cheers:
Tom

[SoCalZR1]

Update...

I have managed to talk to a guy at BAR (Bureau of Automotive Repair), we have it all here in California.

If you passed smog in 2009 you may not next time its your turn:

- Emission standards on our cars changed this year. I was not imagining it. The max levels have been changed to what the car had to meet as new. For example, what was an HC limit of 110 PPM last year on my 1990, is now 77 since that was the threshold on the car when new. I managed 70.

- I passed NO the first time and failed the second. The BAR guy looked it up. He knew my results and he knew the temperature that day where I had the test done. He says the tester did not follow proper procedure. When the ambient temp is above 74 the tester must use a large fan to provide airflow and keep the car as cool as possible. He did not and so the BAR tech believes that is why NO failed since combustion temps would have been high compared to real world conditions.

- I mentioned that if it turns out the CATS need replacement they are not available anymore. I was told to call the State Contracted Parts Locator ( 800-622-7733) and they can confirm and issue a certificate that parts are no longer available, and then a "referee" will issue you tags for two years with no smog test. There is one exception... there is a new "visible smoke test" that must be passed. If it fails then no tags can be issued until fixed. Here is a link to the process: http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/80_BARResources/05_Legislative/RegulatoryActions/Smog%20Check%20Manual%20w-diesel%208-09%20V3.pdf

If you do pass you go through the process again when 2 years are up.


- Curious what you emission thresholds are in California? They are called "cutpoints" and can be looked up here:

http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/pubwebquery/cutpoints/ShowMake.aspx

Well, that's enough good news for now. I am going to go try again later this week. And, by the way, the BAR tech said a lot of people are upset that they are not passing.

All for now. :cool:

[Coupe89]

I didn't know the smog stations need to put a fan in front when temp is over 74...

Thanks for the info.

[SoCalZR1]

I didn't know the smog stations need to put a fan in front when temp is over 74...

Thanks for the info.

I don't think they are trying to make it easy for us. I saw the fan there and even asked if the car wasn't getting hot. No answer. :censored:

[glkuntz]

Sharkpilot:

You mentioned in your post that your car passed the CA smog test in April with the readings you showed in your post. I'm sure you are aware that the cutpoints have changed since then and those same readings would not pass now. Here are the current standards courtesy of SoCal Zr1: http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/pubwebquery/cutpoints/ShowMake.aspx

I only bring this up as I am trying to gather a database of cars and test numbers with the eye of making an appeal to the BAR for these cars. If you are interested in participating in this project all I need is the smog numbers you get when you next go for a test. My advice is to go early as the process will not be fun.

Gary, 1990 ZR1 #556

[glkuntz]

SoCalZr1

Thanks for your postings regarding your smog issues. I too am having difficulties with my 1990. Did you finally pass? If so or if not can you give me the latest numbers you have gotten for HC, CO and NO. I only bring this up as I am trying to gather a database of cars and test numbers with the eye of making an appeal to the BAR for these cars.

Gary 1990 ZR1 #556

[Nacho_ZR1]

I'm going to PM you witha suggestion where you might want to take your car for some ''help'' in passing smog in the So Cal area. :wink:

:-D HeHe another option may be for u Cali boys to register your car in another state? I don't see this getting any easier in the years to come.

[Z51JEFF]

One thing you guys need to keep in mind is everything that goes into the system also goes in a Carfax,failed smog included.I would shop around and find somebody that speaks flaunt English.The first time I had to have the car Test Only I must have gone to maybe 5 places before I was comfortable with the guy doing the smog.To the OP,I would take the results to a CA referee and let him know something isnt right with these smog stations.Ca wants the strict smog policy,they can find the money,time to look into this.Eveybody that thinks its kinda funny eveytime we in Ca have to jump through hoops for the Smog Circus just wait,it will be in your state at some point.Its inevitable.

[TFENT]

Here is my smog as of 9-10. It had the MH PROM installed in it when smogged. Totally stock 1990 with new injectors, plugs, wires, pumps, and coils.


http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k26/ssmokybear/ZR1/Smog9-10.jpg

[Kevin]

guess i'm selling my zr-1 back to my father if i ever have to move to comifonria