Update on injectors

[Aurora40]

Just FYI. I hooked up the fuel lines, battery, and let the fuel pump run for a few seconds. Then I waited about a minute, and went around touching the bottom of each injector. I have 5 primaries that leak and 3 secondaries. None of them were dropping drops of fuel, but they'd soak my finger pretty good when I touched them.

Oddly all but one primary and one secondary that leak are on the passenger side.

I've already ordered the MSD secondaries from Summit, though they won't ship for another week or so. So I'll price out some Delphi primaries and go from there. Marc Haibeck has a set of o-rings that he says allow you to use a secondary injector in the primary slot, and I believe also the later 93+ primary injector too. If the 93+ primaries are significantly cheaper, I may go this route.

I also dropped the middle screw where the lines hit the fuel rail... It didn't drop out the bottom, I think it may be on some heatshielding or the tranny... :( Or maybe under the coil packs. I fished around but couldn't find it. I'll try again later.

[Bell Curve]

I also dropped the middle screw where the lines hit the fuel rail... It didn't drop out the bottom, I think it may be on some heatshielding or the tranny... :( Or maybe under the coil packs. I fished around but couldn't find it. I'll try again later.

Use a telescoping magnet to fish it out. No tool box is complete without one.

[Aurora40]

But I don't know where it is...

[tomtom72]

Sorry to hear about the screw. It maybe on top of the trans but with the coil plate & coils in place ya can't get an eyeball to the right angle to see back there. Also there is room under the starter for it to hide if it bounced that way. I hate to say this but it might just be easier to pull the coil platform & then look to see if that helps...at least ya can see the trans top & sides with it out of the way. Then I'd look straight down from the fuel block to see where or what it could bounce off of & go from there. The starter is next if ya can't find it because there is room under it for lost screws to hide. Ask me how I know:sign10: I'm not laughing at you, Bob. Remember I had to pull the passenger side fender panel to locate one of my fumbles. Oh yea I found some interesting things on top of my trans too & I didn't even drop them there!

btw how is your breather box? Check the bolts. Mine were only finger tight! If there is anything I can share please shout at me!
Good luck!
Tom

[Aurora40]

Yeah, I'll probably pull the coil pack assembly... It may have gone there. The bolts aren't expensive, though. But I wouldn't want it rattling around or anything. I could reach on top of the tranny fairly well from under the car and couldn't find anything.

My breather box bolts had about an extra 1/2 to 1 turn in them. They weren't really loose, but not quite tight either.

I should snap a pict of my secondary solenoid. I understand it would need to bring air in to release the vacuum, and so you'd want a filter. But I'll be danged if I see where that might be on it.

[tomtom72]

Solenoid is proly the updated version, the one with the square filter in the front of the solenoid. It's a flat retangular filter that if you don't look close you will not see it. It's about 1/2" on a side and about as thick as tissue paper!

Tom:thumbsup:

[phrogs]

the coil packs are onyl held in with 4 bolts you want to make sure where that screw went but as long as it didnt go down the injector housing your good anything on the top of the motor or tranny is harmless

keep us updated on the injectors im thinking about getting RC's for mine

[Aurora40]

The IH's are off the car. The cylinder head intake ports are taped over, it for sure didn't fall in there. :)

I updated an injector thread on CF. I have already ordered the MSD secondaries, they should ship in the next week. I also placed an order for Delphi '93-95 primaries. Marc Haibeck sells an o-ring set that allows them to fit. They are about $15 cheaper per injector than the '90-92 primary. So I'll be swapping them all out with OEM stuff for less than the cost of RC (barely less).

It seems RC is recommended on price and their tight tolerances. So they seem like a nice change. I guess I'd rather stick with stock since I know it worked for 15 years. And that RC Engineering sticker on the injectors is ugly... ;) I factored out price by shopping around, but there's still the tight tolerance factor. If you don't care about stock vs non-stock, it sure sounds like RC makes a good product.

[tomtom72]

I thought RC had a recent price increase? I thought I saw some one post that somewhere?? I'm happy with my RC's; I doubt that new OE stuff would be any different...mine were shorted & I had some leakers...so anything would have improved my situation.

I can say that the butt dyno told me that my injectors were affecting the car before they actually started shorting to be noticable, the motor response is crisper with the new ones. Maybe they were leaking a little before they shorted out??

That is a nice thing to know that you found out from Mr. Haibeck about the O-rings for the later injectors being a retro-fit for the early style primaries. Great research work on that stuff!:thumbsup: I'd love to hear how it runs when it's back together, with the P & P job and all I bet you will have a bigger grin.

Tom

[haber rj]

Tomtom, what size Rc did you order and did the new injctors make much difference in the performance other than the having the broken one. The price that they told me was $68.00 each since i was purchasing all 16, does that sound right or are they leading me down the path.
haber rj

[tomtom72]

haber, I bought the 205's. You can use the 225's. Z Factor explained it in my thread about the miss in my motor. Either one is okay as RC rates the flow at less PSI than GM. Six of one 1/2 doz of the other. If you plan on some major porting work & exhaust swap out w/ headers & gears & chip then the 225's might be better as there might be more for a tuner to work with.

The price I got was $64.00 each if I bought all 16 but I snuck in just before a price increase I was told. That was back in late Sept 05. I think the $68 sounds fair if you price them against the OE stuff from GM. I am satisfied but my stuff was shorting and leaking I found out after I pulled them out for a look see. I am very happy with my RC 205's as the car runs very well, to me anyway. I think that the injectors were also leaking as the secondary butterflys also had some gum on the top sides of the butterflys?? It just pulls smoother and feels more uniform after 3.5 K rpms.

:cheers:
Tom

[haber rj]

Tom I have headers, a Corsa exhaust and I am working with Aaron from South Georgia Corvettes on a new chip. My car was running very rich so I decided to change the chip and lean it out, for all I know I have some leaking injectors also, but I had 1 fail on the passenger side bank, this is when I decided to replace them all, I think the 225's will be a little big unless Aaron tell me to get them and he will program the chip to accomadate. I was just interested to get some feed back from some one who actuall has the 205's in their car. I have no intentions of racing or any of that stuff, I just want the car to perform at it's best the way that it is.
haber rj

[tomtom72]

I wish I knew enough to give more than a "butt dyno" answer. The 205's work fine by me but I don't know anything. Heck I didn't even realize that some of my 2* injectors were leaking alittle!

If I were you I would go with what SGC says to use. They know their Z's & I would respect their opinion. I can only say that I am very pleased with the product. The car runs very strong to me but I've nothing to compare it to. I can only say I feel that I got more than my $'s worth from the RC injectors.

Good luck!
:thumbsup:
Tom

[haber rj]

Tom thanks again, basically that is what I am after, just making the car run the way is suppose to run, I have had my car for 10 years and I have been very happy with it.
haber rj

[blackjack]

i have rc/lucas injectors,too,and the car runs very good...the stockers were
rusty and leaky...no regrets about that choice
blackjack
91/1735

[haber rj]

Good morning blackjack nice to hear from you and thanks for the update, I imagine when I get my injectors out I will find the same thing that you did. What size did you use when replacing the original injectors and did you replace both sets.
haber rjhttp://www.zr1netregistry.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif

[blackjack]

replaced them all with 205cc ...i had the job done by a performance shop
they replaced all the vacuum lines,orings,gaskets,etc...
the car runs like a bat-out of hell now...lol..other mods include borla exhaust
with no resonator(x-pipe),4.10 gears,cold air induction,alum.flywheel,95
wheels
blackjack
91/1735

[haber rj]

Hey that's wild I never thought about replacing the vaccum lines and "o" rings, can you still buy these from the dealer or do I have to scrounge around to find them. I have the Corsa exhaust, headers, and I was in the process of dynoing the car for a new prom when a couple of the injectors failed. I am working with Aaron at SGC on the prom it was running really rich when I started so when the injectors are in we will finally get it finished. Up here in Canada I really (or I haven't heard) of a shop that really understands these cars, so I am being really careful and asking a lot of questions. I have a shop that is very good with race cars and the retro cars and if I can tell them what I need done they are quite capable of doing the job, they just can't tell me what combination works or what is good and what is not. After I get the car sorted out I will be doing the 4:10 gear swap and it should be a real treat to drive, I can hardly wait.
Haber rj

[blackjack]

haber...
we have a performance shop around. here..the guy is really hot
he builds drag engines,transmissions,diffies,etc...he also did my 4.10 setup
:worship:
blackjack

[haber rj]

Hey you are very fortunate to have that guy, I think that I am not going to have any choice, if I want my car set up right I am going to have to take it to the States and have someone who really knows what they are doing get their hand on it. Don't misunderstand what I am saying, the car runs good but I think that it could run a lot better with fine tuning. I'll keep you posted when I get the injectors in and get it dynoed and the engine leaned out to where it is suppose to be. When I first had it on the dyno it produced 347 RWHP with just the exhaust change and headers, I couldn't tell you if that is good or not, I haven't had a chance to do another pull due to the injector problem. They told me from what they saw on the dyno sheet that the engine was running really rich, so enter the new chip to lean it out but I haven't been able to make the final pull, we'll see what happens. Due to the lack of service availability up here I am seriously considering selling the car and buying something a little more user friendly.http://www.zr1netregistry.com/forum/images/icons/icon5.gif

[tomtom72]

Haber rj,

I should not stick my nose in here but I can't see you groping around in the dark by yourself! Sooo with a thought of helping out a fellow Z brother I'll offer up some stuff.

Parts: partszoneonline.com = P & G Chevy in PA, very good guys + plenty of stock. Also check out the net registry for other parts guys. LT5 Parts.com, KWhiteRacing.com...all these sites are listed over at the registry. zfdoc.com for the transmission.

As far as the fuel maps go, look over at Mark Haibeck's site, ZR-1 Specialist.com, for all the theory you need about the programing on the PROMs. You will learn alot by reading his stuff! It's like taking an introductory course on ECM theory!

The secondary vacuum system parts can be had from P & G and KWRacing, between the two you can get all new stuff to put into a restoration of the system. I dealt with P & G and KWR & got everything I needed. The trick is to have the part numbers, I bought a CD/ROM & use it to get the P/N's and then I go to P & G's site and plug them in to check avalibility. Even if the P/N's are superceeded you can call them and they will go thru it on the phone. Those guys are swell to deal with. The stuff that is NLA you have to go to KWR to get. Oh, I forgot this, KWR now has the parts book pages so you can look up the P/N's or they sell the CD.

Just a side note on injectors. If the coils fail the inj's don't fire and those cyls will be lean. The ECM will richen up the working inj's to compensate using the info from the O2 sensors. Therefore the scan tool will tell you that the car is rich and your nose might tell you the car is lean. If they leak, as in don't close then the nose or the plugs are gonna tell you that. I don't know what the scan tool would give as data in that case as only my 2* inj's were leaking. Oh, this info only comes up in "closed loop" operation.

Sorry to be so long. I hope this helps alittle. Don't sell the Z because you think parts are the problem, specially not the small stuff under the plenum. That stuff can be had factory fresh in the boxes!

Good luck,:thumbsup:
Tom

[blackjack]

tomtom is right...i see all the small gremlins as challenges...sometimes i hate my z too,but when i finally fix the problem,and go for a spin,i forget about
all the cursing and swearing,and i go hunting for some rustang !!
i realised that the car keeps me alive-and kicking-like a girlfriend almost
errrrrrrr-not quite !!
some of my expressions might sound funny...i guess by now.everybody has realised i am french-youre allowed to have a good laugh,just dont mention it!!:-D
blackjack
91/1735

[haber rj]

Thanks for all the information, I certainly feel a lot better now, I think what I have is what we call up here as the mid winter blues. With all these contacts and part numbers I will sit down with my guy and figure something out. The first thing will be to get the new injectors in , put the car back on the dyno make a pull and get a starting point and go from there. Like I said before I wil keep you posted on my progress.
haber rj

[haber rj]

Blackjack, I didn't realize that you were form Montreal, that is great, you are not to far from me maybe 7 hour depending on exactly where you are.
haber rj

[blackjack]

haber
being from montreal,i know exactly how you feel...lets get together next spring for a spin...by the way,i think you will fix a lot of your problems by changing your injectors..if you want to stick with the multec,i still have
my original ones.most of them were still good...let me know
blackjack:cheers:

[tomtom72]

Hey haber rj, top o the morning to ya!!!

Glad I could pay back by passing on the info! I hear ya about the "lackoZuseitis" & the "itdontrunrite" syndrome!

Look I was there & I thought now the fun was over because there were few places that could work on a Z, let alone know about parts! You're home here with us & we will not leave you out there by yourself!

If you want I can work up a P/N list based upon my little under the plenum restoration. Let me know!

Hey Blackjack, you don't talk funny...I just listen funny!

:thumbsup: guys!!

[haber rj]

Tom that would be very helpful to me and I really appreciate the offer. It is this kind of fellowship that makes owning these cars great, thanks again.
haber rj

[tomtom72]

You got it haber! Just give me some time. I got to go to work so I'll PM you the list later today!

:thumbsup:
Tom

What yr is your Z??

[haber rj]

Blackjack I have ordered a full set of the 205 RC injectors, I should have them soon and I am going to have my stock ones checked and the good ones cleaned and resealed and replace the bad ones just to have a good set of orginals.I wanted to take the car down to Norfork in March but I think it will be a little early to take the car out of storage for that. There is suppose to be a C4/ZR1 meeting at Bowling Green this year again to honour the Grand Sport, I hope to have it ready for that and cruise down, just to drive and enjoy the ride. Who knows may be we can plan a get together down your way one weekend, and you can show me the sights, I hear that there is some ausome roads for driving, talk with you later and thanks again for the support and encouragement.
haber rj http://www.zr1netregistry.com/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Aurora40]

I am going to have my stock ones checked and the good ones cleaned and resealed and replace the bad ones just to have a good set of orginals.
I probably wouldn't bother with this if I were you. If you want good originals, just get a set of new originals, it would be cheaper than the RC's plus new originals. And hopefully your new ones will last indefinitely and won't need to be replaced. Also, I kind of suspect that to really rebuild them to where they were like new would be about as costly as just getting new ones?

My car had injectors that really weren't too terrible, and new ones made a difference in low-speed, low-throttle driving. So if you're are bad, I suspect you will like the car a lot more once they are replaced. :)

[haber rj]

Aurora 40 that sound like good advise, I have a few good originals that were given to me from a fellow who replaced his with bigger injectors. I will see if between the what I take out and what he gave me if I have a good set. I won't put the originals back in, I like the idea of the stainless RC injectors as I only put about 500 miles a year on my car due to lack of time to really enjoy it. I just like to keep all the parts that I remove or replace, we are having extemely warm spring like weather here for the past week, kind of makes you want to pull the buggy out of storage and go for a ride. Well thanks for the info and hopefull our paths will cross at a meet and we can put a face to a name.
haber rj

[Jeffvette]

If your car sits that much, scrap the stockers. And even if the injector that were given to you were cleaned and stored properly, they may still not work when you install them.

The stock injectors are basically garbage when cleaned.

[haber rj]

TOMTOM thanks for the reply, but for some reason your message didn't come through, some form of pop up protection blocked it out. I spoke with my mechanic last night and we had a good chat about all my concerns. I have known this fellow for the past 8 years and I always new that he was good, but after we talked and he explained everything to me, he was telling me exactly what everyone was telling me on the form and he agreed with what was being said. Sometimes we have the answers to most of our questions right in front of us, but we are not just listening or it is to close. I guess after all the years of racing Corvettes and not being really up to date on the modern Corvette I am still being a little cautious, like an over protective parent at least that is what my wife tell me. Boy i am really reved up now and i can hardly wait to get this project going and completed, enough talking now it's time to get to work.
haber rj

[haber rj]

Jeffvette, hello you are absolutely correct, I was just going to put them on the shelf anyway, I keep all the original parts that I replace on the car, I just would like a complete set of original that is all. I have the original exhaust maniforls and converters and exhaust system up in the rafters and the shifter and everything else on the shelf.

[TheLurker]

The hot tip about cleaned stock injectors is that they tend to stick a bit after cleaning and sitting a while. The best way do do it is to install them and run the car the same day. Before installing them, bang them on something. When I have injectors on the test bench and they stick I just take a small hammer, like a tack hammer, and tap on them. That usually does the trick. So, taking that information a step further, just tap them around right before installing them. Then, get gas on them as soon as possible. You should be fine after that.

[Nick]

The hot tip about cleaned stock injectors is that they tend to stick a bit after cleaning and sitting a while. The best way do do it is to install them and run the car the same day. Before installing them, bang them on something. When I have injectors on the test bench and they stick I just take a small hammer, like a tack hammer, and tap on them. That usually does the trick. So, taking that information a step further, just tap them around right before installing them. Then, get gas on them as soon as possible. You should be fine after that.

I used a 3 lb sledgehammer on mine. Didn't help, and they only sat for a few weeks after cleaning. Ended up replacing 3.

[haber rj]

Problem here was the sledge wasn't big enough.
haber rjhttp://www.zr1netregistry.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif