Header install questions.

[aod]

Hello all,

I currently have a Corsa catback exhaust and have recently purchased a set of Stainless Works off-road factory connection point headers to connect up to the Corsa exhaust. :) I've so far ordered gaskets from Jerry's gaskets and Stage 8 header fasteners. Now, I'm a little conflicted about the dipstick tube. Does it need a special bracket after installing headers? Also, what is the dipstick grommet for that Jerry's gaskets sells? Does the grommet get screwed up and needs to be replaced? If I need a new bracket, does anyone know where to source one? I saw Jeff Vette mentioned in a post, but it was such an old post and I don't think it is carried anymore. Lastly, I opted to have the headers ceramic coated by Stainless Works. Are there any hoses/electrical wires that will still need to be heat wrapped even if the headers are coated?

Any help is greatly appreciated! :cheers:

[z proud]

I did 2 02 extenders...
along with the dip stick bracket

Some will say you can unrap the wires to extend the o2 wires along with bending the dipstick to make it all work.

Good Luck


this was for the stainless works headers:handshak:

[Paul Workman]

For my Stainless Works headers I built this little bracket, using 3/4" wide steel strap from the HW store, and a 1/4"x 1/2" long carriage bolt, nut and washer.

Oh! also I ground out a little divet to avoid the dipstick interfering with the bracket.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/bracket004Large.jpg

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/bracket005Large.jpg

If you like, I could make one up for ya in a jiffy.

The grommet is the seal between the dipstick and the block. If you have never replaced it, after 15-20 years, it is prolly due. Otherwise there may be an oil leak, especially after pulling the dipstick tube in and out, etc. However, you could just coat the grommet - inside and out - with RTV Silicone: works just as well, sometimes.

Coated headers will help, far as heat shielding goes. But, the added insurance of wrapping the wires with insulation or heat shield tubes "can't hoit!"

And if your car is a 90 (not sure 'bout later models) you will need to order the O2 extension from SW for the passenger side.

(Say "hi" to Jim Watson for me).

Hope this helps!

P.

[pantera1683]

[/QUOTE] If you like, I could make one up for ya in a jiffy.[/QUOTE]

Paul, I need one of those, I'm about to install SSW headers on mine. Would you be able to do one for me? PM me the details if you can.

Thanks

Kris

[Paul Workman]

Would you be able to do one for me?

Thanks

Kris[/QUOTE]

Why, soitenly! I've got about 30" of strap left over and the weekend before me...I'll make "a couple", in case there are a few out there needing one as well. I'm not in the manufacturing "bitness" (yet), so we're basically looking at mailing as the "big" expense:-D

I'll be in touch, or send me a PM w/ your addy info and I'll get back atcha!

P.

[GOLDCYLON]

Damn nice of you Paul. Maybe you should do a few of these and offer em up on a group buy. GC

[ScottZ95ZR1]

I'd also like to buy one from you Paul.

[todesengel]

Damn nice of you Paul. Maybe you should do a few of these and offer em up on a group buy. GC
or sell them to ss to include in their header package =D>

[GOLDCYLON]

Paul sent you a pm. Looks like you have a few customers already. GC

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Would you be able to do one for me?

Thanks

Kris

Why, soitenly! I've got about 30" of strap left over and the weekend before me...I'll make "a couple", in case there are a few out there needing one as well. I'm not in the manufacturing "bitness" (yet), so we're basically looking at mailing as the "big" expense:-D

I'll be in touch, or send me a PM w/ your addy info and I'll get back atcha!

P.[/QUOTE]

Paul,

If you still will have extra, I would like to buy one of these brackets too. PM sent.

Craig

[Paul Workman]

The 5 of you that expressed an interest in me making them a dipstick tube bracket to secure the dipstick when using the Stainless Works headers...Your brackets are ready. I'll get them mailed out Monday and let ya know 'bout the cost. I'll PM ya (you know who you are).

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/LT5DipstickbracketsforSWheadersLarg.jpg

They are a little crude, as the grinding is not machined, but done w/ a hand-held grinder, doancha know. But, that is not visible when the bracket is installed and the bracket itself is rather obscure, normally.

I'll PM each of y'all.

P.

[HAWAIIZR-1]

Paul,

Thank you very much. It looks great and I think you might end up getting many more orders. I have a custom made Lokar oil dip stick but not satisfied with my bracket and this will work much better or I might be able to modify my Lokar to your bracket and get the best of both worlds.

Aloha,

Craig

[todesengel]

helluva a gesture :cheers:The 5 of you that expressed an interest in me making them a dipstick tube bracket to secure the dipstick when using the Stainless Works headers...Your brackets are ready. I'll get them mailed out Monday and let ya know 'bout the cost. I'll PM ya (you know who you are).

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x220/6PPC_bucket/tech%20files/LT5DipstickbracketsforSWheadersLarg.jpg

They are a little crude, as the grinding is not machined, but done w/ a hand-held grinder, doancha know. But, that is not visible when the bracket is installed and the bracket itself is rather obscure, normally.

I'll PM each of y'all.

P.

[pantera1683]

Yippee! I just finished the header install yesterday. Thanks so much Paul.

Kris

[aod]

Thanks Paul, you rock! :cheers:

[ZZZZZR1]

Thanks Paul, you rock! :cheers:

I agree! Paul you da man!

:cheers:

[billybaloneey]

Thanks for going above and beyond.

[aod]

I guess my final question, before I embark on this journey, is what things should be wrapped to protect it from heat and what was used to wrap it with?

[pantera1683]

I guess my final question, before I embark on this journey, is what things should be wrapped to protect it from heat and what was used to wrap it with?

What year is yours? I think the early ones require some heat shielding. I have a 94 and with SW headers I didn't have to wrap anything. I just zip tied the O2 sensor wires away from the headers. Oh yeah, my headers are ceramic coated too, so I wasn't all that concerned with heat.

[aod]

What year is yours? I think the early ones require some heat shielding. I have a 94 and with SW headers I didn't have to wrap anything. I just zip tied the O2 sensor wires away from the headers. Oh yeah, my headers are ceramic coated too, so I wasn't all that concerned with heat.

Mine is a '90.

[pantera1683]

Mine is a '90.

I am pretty sure you will need to extend your O2 sensor wires and zip tie them out of the way. Since your headers are ceramic coated you shouldn't need to add any elaborate heat shielding.

[A26B]

Little story;

I put the O2 wire extensions on when I installed the headers. They were really long so I tied them waay away from the headers (jet coated). The pass side I secured to the firewall, under the HVAC box.

On the way back from Houston, I stopped in Gainseville, TX for fuel. Restarted & the engine ran so rough I thought it was going to tear the mtr mts loose. Needless to say, night time, no tools, no light & too low to look under. I thought m about the O2 leads & maybe one had shorted to the header somehow & that O2 signals were ignored in open loop. I throttled up & sure enough, it ran smooth. I drove the last 150 miles in 4th at about 3200 rpm & made it home.

Next morning, put it on the KwikLift. No header burn or shorted wires. Disconnected the pass side plug & poured water out. I had secured the plug under the AC condensate drain & when I stopped, the drain fell directly onto the plug.

I went ahead & bought new Bosch sensors from A/Z. The new sensor leads were long enough to eliminate the extensions.

Dumbass thing to do, but passing on my mistake.

[GOLDCYLON]

Very cool Paul :cheers:

[pantera1683]

Jerry,

Thanks for sharing, I will check my drain to make sure it isn't above my connector.

[tomtom72]

please pardon me chiming in on this A/C drain......but where is that thing supposed to be? I mean if I was to look for it, what general area, under that box that is on the passenger side of the motor?

I think mine is clogged as I never see any water on the floor on that side of the car.

TIA
:cheers:
Tom

[pantera1683]

Jerry,

Thanks for sharing, I will check my drain to make sure it isn't above my connector.

Jerry, I just realized you said you used extensions. I didn't use extensions and my wires aren't under the HVAC so I shouldn't have that problem.

[A26B]

please pardon me chiming in on this A/C drain......but where is that thing supposed to be? I mean if I was to look for it, what general area, under that box that is on the passenger side of the motor?
Yes


I think mine is clogged as I never see any water on the floor on that side of the car.


Could be, they get that way sometimes. With the humidity here in the South, the drain gets a lot of exercise.

[aod]

I got my bracket today. Thanks again Paul, it is a very nice piece of work! :)

[GOLDCYLON]

Dont forget to remove the inner fenders to give yourself some space to work.

[tomtom72]

Jerry and Daryl......thanks a bunch guys! :thumbsup:

It's sometimes the simple things that my brain has farts over!:redface:

:o I assume if I was to look in the correct place in the FSM I could get the official description of where that drain is.....those pages along with the electrical book are virgins in my FSM set. Section 6E, suspension, brakes and engine mechanical are dog eared & have grease smudges & sticky notes!

[aod]

Still waiting on the headers to get back from the coaters. I got Stage 8 header fasteners for them. I see torque spec for exhaust manifold bolts are 19 ft-lbs. I assume this will still be the case with these fasteners?

[Paul Workman]

Still waiting on the headers to get back from the coaters. I got Stage 8 header fasteners for them. I see torque spec for exhaust manifold bolts are 19 ft-lbs. I assume this will still be the case with these fasteners?

I don't think you'll go wrong. Being that your running the bolts into aluminum, I think the limitation to 19# is in deference to the head material. For that reason I didn't go with "grade 8s" for my header bolts: just plain ol grade 5s from the hardware store.

I read in the FSM and I noticed that Pete used a bit of high temp (red) RTV on Kevin's headers. I recon a little of the RTV would go a long way - far as the light torque goes, along with a few bolts being obstructed and therefore can't be installed anyway.

P.

[aod]

I don't think you'll go wrong. Being that your running the bolts into aluminum, I think the limitation to 19# is in deference to the head material. For that reason I didn't go with "grade 8s" for my header bolts: just plain ol grade 5s from the hardware store.

I read in the FSM and I noticed that Pete used a bit of high temp (red) RTV on Kevin's headers. I recon a little of the RTV would go a long way - far as the light torque goes, along with a few bolts being obstructed and therefore can't be installed anyway.

P.

These aren't grade 8 bolts (well, they may be I'm not sure what grade they are), but they are Stage 8 header fasteners that are meant to be screwed in and then something that looks like a cam lobe is clipped on them so they cannot back out. Here is what they are:
http://www.stage8.com/products_lhb.html

[Paul Workman]

These aren't grade 8 bolts (well, they may be I'm not sure what grade they are), but they are Stage 8 header fasteners that are meant to be screwed in and then something that looks like a cam lobe is clipped on them so they cannot back out. Here is what they are:
http://www.stage8.com/products_lhb.html

Ah! I've read about them, but never used them. Let us know how you like um. My wife Ami has a SBC in her C3 vert that has long had issues with keeping the friggin header bolts tight. That might be just the ticket. Thanks for the clarification, buddy!

P.

[aod]

Well, I thought I had everything in place for this install. The headers arrived yesterday. I had my mechanic come over and check them out with me. He immediately saw that the flanges were bowed a bit. We put a T-square on the flanges and measured how far they were off (or how much gap there will be when fitted) on each flange. One is .08" off, the other is .04" off. Since these are bolting into aluminum, I can't see any possible way that these thick flanges are going to seat correctly. Is this typical quality for SW headers? If so, I think I'll be getting a full refund and going elsewhere. I'll be calling them later today to see what they say, but I'm not too happy. It's unfortunate, because everything else about them is amazing.

[todesengel]

Honestly it is pretty typical of MOST headers I have dealt with in the past, which is why my intent was to have them milled prior to installWell, I thought I had everything in place for this install. The headers arrived yesterday. I had my mechanic come over and check them out with me. He immediately saw that the flanges were bowed a bit. We put a T-square on the flanges and measured how far they were off (or how much gap there will be when fitted) on each flange. One is .08" off, the other is .04" off. Since these are bolting into aluminum, I can't see any possible way that these thick flanges are going to seat correctly. Is this typical quality for SW headers? If so, I think I'll be getting a full refund and going elsewhere. I'll be calling them later today to see what they say, but I'm not too happy. It's unfortunate, because everything else about them is amazing.

[aod]

I just got off the phone with them, they said that since there are 16 bolts that hold each header on, they should flatten out and seal against a gasket or RTV. He said the tolerance for regular small block chevy engines are .060" and that is with 8 bolts holding the header in. I reminded him these are bolting into aluminum and he said that should be fine. I'm a little skeptical, to say the least but I guess we'll see what happens. I'd like to mill the flanges, but there are two issues with that. 1) These have already been ceramic coated and 2) Even if they were not coated they weld the wrong side of flange to mill them down.

[todesengel]

I woudl mill them anyway. Even though they are welded on the flange side, the little amount that needs taken off is not going to corrupt the integrity of the weld. I also believe that as long as the tool was sharp, and you take your time the finish should be ok, but perhaps I am wrong. All I know is that I would not put warped headers on a car. Too much work for too many possible headache, but we all have our own comfort level.I just got off the phone with them, they said that since there are 16 bolts that hold each header on, they should flatten out and seal against a gasket or RTV. He said the tolerance for regular small block chevy engines are .060" and that is with 8 bolts holding the header in. I reminded him these are bolting into aluminum and he said that should be fine. I'm a little skeptical, to say the least but I guess we'll see what happens. I'd like to mill the flanges, but there are two issues with that. 1) These have already been ceramic coated and 2) Even if they were not coated they weld the wrong side of flange to mill them down.

[aod]

I guess what angers me then, is with the price I paid for these why didn't they take care of doing that? If I mill them now, I believe I might run the risk of the ceramic chipping off in other places afterwards, correct? Ugh.

[Paul Workman]

Well, I thought I had everything in place for this install. The headers arrived yesterday. I had my mechanic come over and check them out with me. He immediately saw that the flanges were bowed a bit. We put a T-square on the flanges and measured how far they were off (or how much gap there will be when fitted) on each flange. One is .08" off, the other is .04" off. Since these are bolting into aluminum, I can't see any possible way that these thick flanges are going to seat correctly. Is this typical quality for SW headers? If so, I think I'll be getting a full refund and going elsewhere. I'll be calling them later today to see what they say, but I'm not too happy. It's unfortunate, because everything else about them is amazing.

Hey, buddy!
I just measured mine with a straight edge, and I have .028 and .026 respectively. FWIW, they didn't leak in spite of not having ALL the bolts screwed in (common situation, even from the factory, I'm told), and I used the standard 19ft lb torque on one of Eric's gaskets and no red silicone either.

Hmmm.... 80 tho seems a bit much, but I don't have any other SW headers to reference to. Some SBC header flanges have been at least that far off and more, but I digress...

You might be able to knock off the high spots a little with a long flat file - enough to bring the gap down to .030 (guessing, based on my .028 not being a problem in spite of using no silicone), you might be good.

I don't know that 80 tho is an issue or not easily correctable to an acceptable gap, but I would call SW if you haven't already to discuss it w/ them. Also, Eric sells exhaust gaskets, and his input would be welcome 'bout now. (I wonder if the ceramic coating process resulted in some of the warpage??? Just a thought.)

Bottom line: At this point I wouldn't be too alarmed. You may be able to heat them and re-shape them a little, or like I said, file off just enough to get in the ballpark. But, the fact that the heads are aluminum gives me pause too. If they were cast iron, I know from experience and fussing with headers on SBCs 80 tho is "workable" (with a little filing and good gaskets!).

I too will be interested to hear what others may have to say.

P.

[todesengel]

I would be more inclined to believe the warpage is a result of the welding, not the ceramic application. I am just not quite sure how that process could warp the flange.

I have built many turbo headers, and if you do not take your time with the welds, and weld too much, too fast, you run a strong possibility of warping it.

I am not claiming to be correct in what I am saying, but there is a right, and a wrong way to do everything to me. My opinion is that if you know something is not up to par BEFORE you put it on, you only have yourself to blame down the road when you start having issues. I wont put dirty underwear on after a shower, I wont do an oil change without changing the filter, and I won't put a part on my car that I know isn't right. Everyone is different, and so is everyones acceptable variances.Hey, buddy!
I just measured mine with a straight edge, and I have .028 and .026 respectively. FWIW, they didn't leak in spite of not having ALL the bolts screwed in (common situation, even from the factory, I'm told), and I used the standard 19ft lb torque on one of Eric's gaskets and no red silicone either.

Hmmm.... 80 tho seems a bit much, but I don't have any other SW headers to reference to. Some SBC header flanges have been at least that far off and more, but I digress...

You might be able to knock off the high spots a little with a long flat file - enough to bring the gap down to .030 (guessing, based on my .028 not being a problem in spite of using no silicone), you might be good.

I don't know that 80 tho is an issue or not easily correctable to an acceptable gap, but I would call SW if you haven't already to discuss it w/ them. Also, Eric sells exhaust gaskets, and his input would be welcome 'bout now. (I wonder if the ceramic coating process resulted in some of the warpage??? Just a thought.)

Bottom line: At this point I wouldn't be too alarmed. You may be able to heat them and re-shape them a little, or like I said, file off just enough to get in the ballpark. But, the fact that the heads are aluminum gives me pause too. If they were cast iron, I know from experience and fussing with headers on SBCs 80 tho is "workable" (with a little filing and good gaskets!).

I too will be interested to hear what others may have to say.

P.

[todesengel]

yes, that is a real risk.

I was going to mill mine prior to sending off for the coating, but since I am not using mine they just sit on a shelf.

I can check mine for you if you like when I get to the shop.

I guess what angers me then, is with the price I paid for these why didn't they take care of doing that? If I mill them now, I believe I might run the risk of the ceramic chipping off in other places afterwards, correct? Ugh.

[aod]

yes, that is a real risk.

I was going to mill mine prior to sending off for the coating, but since I am not using mine they just sit on a shelf.

I can check mine for you if you like when I get to the shop.

Yes please, I'm very curious how far others are out before I make a decision on this.

[Jagdpanzer]

I went the same route a couple of years back with SW Jet Hot coated headers and Stage 8 header bolts. Also found the flanges to be off a little bit but they sealed up perfectly with new gasket and the bolts torqued up properly. However I did not install the locking tabs that came with the Stage 8 bolts as they looked to be more trouble to put on than they were worth. I've checked them a couple of times since and none have loosened.
I went with the Stage 8 bolts because of the 8mm 12 point bolt head which are I found easier to install in the holes with tight header pipe clearance.
Be sure to start all bolts first by a couple of threads then continue tightening each a couple of turns at a time until all are drawn up. Otherwise you may not be able to install the ones with tight clearance. With this approach I was able to install all 28 bolts. Be sure to run a tap down the cylinder head bolt holes and blow out with air so the new header bolts screw in easily.

[HAWAIIZR-1]

For what it is worth, I am also a SW, JETHOT coated person and after seeing this I did the straight edge check since my motor is still apart. I found it warped too and had no idea as it is in several places and about .023 off depending where I put the straight edge and on different ends.

Having said that, I also had no leak issues using the OEM gasket torqued to specs. I also am a Stage 8 bolt user. The only thing I found is when I was taken them off with the locks (aluminum) I believe it was two that I had to fish out and can't get with a magnet when 1 popped and flew taking off the clip and the other just dropped. Otherwise, I love them and they will not come loose since the tab with hit the header if it happens to loosen in time.

:cheers: