What to do?

[todesengel]

As many of you know, I am planning on building another motor for my car, and twin turbocharging it. This probably will not happen for at least 3 more months, so I am trying to bring it back up where it should be in the interim.

I am planning on going complete standalone on the car when I do the changeover, they are what I know, and I do not like the idea of being dependent on anyone else to burn me another chip when I make changes. The other advantage is the ability to run different maps for street turn, track, etc.

Now I am at a point with the current setup that I was going to going to slap the headers on monday, and eliminate the secondaries, etc. This of course is going to require me to spend over 500 for another chip just to run for three months or so. After thinking about it, it almost seems like a huge waste at this point, and this 500 could be applied towards the standalone. That being said, I would still like to get this thing running tip top before I swap anything out, so I have a nice baseline, and can collect data from normal timing and fuel maps.

What is your opinion? Should I just pull my plenum, fix my vaccuum leak, and slap the headers on running with the current chip, or just go ahead and go all the way with it?

TIA

[Hammer]

Tough question. I would think the car would run OK with the headers and stock chip, although your fueling would be a little low for the extra power. About 20 horses or so is what I've heard.

You know, there are only 6 twin turbo and one supercharged ZR-1's on this earth don't you? Should be interesting. Please do keep us posted on your progress.

Oh yeah, see you in about a week.

[todesengel]

Thanks for the reply. Here is what I think may be the difference. My car has the lingenfelter 465 package on it, and with that I would assume that it would have required tweaking the ecm some. I am going to install a wideband in at least one collector, but obviously that will just give me data from one side or the other. I guess I could just go ahead and put a wideband in each, along with a temperature probe to collect data from intake charge as well.

Obviously I am new to this engine, and I am a data fool. I love to find out everything I can about a paltform before I sart modifying it. When I built my first 7m I had intake probes pre intercooler and post, egt probes in all 6 cylinders and presensor at the turbo and intake manifold.

I also have quite a few toys and while I do not mind spending money where I should, I don't want to waste a ton of it either :-DTough question. I would think the car would run OK with the headers and stock chip, although your fueling would be a little low for the extra power. About 20 horses or so is what I've heard.

You know, there are only 6 twin turbo and one supercharged ZR-1's on this earth don't you? Should be interesting. Please do keep us posted on your progress.

Oh yeah, see you in about a week.

[tomtom72]

I found this over at Marc Haibeck's site. Maybe it would be of some use to you in figuring out what to do for a PROM....:dontknow:

http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/presentations/Presentations%20Page.htm

On this page it's the second from the bottom of the page.

:cheers:
Tom

[Kevin]

i know it's been a while since i looked at chips...who are you using that they are charging $500?

[todesengel]

i know it's been a while since i looked at chips...who are you using that they are charging $500?
That is what Marc Haibeck quoted me

[Kevin]

That is what Marc Haibeck quoted me

damn, i have been outa the game for awhile.

[todesengel]

damn, i have been outa the game for awhile.
Well I called someone else first, due to my "love" for illinois :-D, and they quoted me a smidge over 600, so I called Marc, and it was like 250 for standard + so much for secondary removal, + so much for fuel advancement, + so much for something else.

This is one of the reasons the standalone is so ideal for me, I don't want to pay, and pay everytime I make a change. Tuned roms are a great thing for people who just mod, then leave it, but I wont do that.

I think I am just going to wait to remove the secondaries AFTER BG, and order the haltech now. I will set the haltech up on the existing motor, and start tuning to get my feet wet with it. Between selling my stock module, and what I save if I had purchased the chip, I will be halfway to paying for the standalone. The wiring I will just handle myself.

[threestar40]

The wiring I will just handle myself.


Dude, that is hardcore. So what FI system are you gonna run? To my knowledge, which is very limited, you will probably be the first one that has done it with an LT5.

I think it's smart to go standalone so you can do stuff yourself and you will have an idiot proof interface...expecially with a twin turbo system...but a HUGE task. You will live fittings connectors and plumbing...not only in metal, but in wiring too. I've done one twin turbo car with accel DFI gen 7 stuff...it's anything but easy and I had a harness and only 8 injectors to deal with. I'm facing the same issues with an LT5 I own and wondering about staying stock or just starting over...I'm a long way from actually doing it...within a year or two...but I'm gonna have to deal with this decision as well...but I'm done with turbos.

You can flame me all you want...but "turbo's are for diesels". Just go ahead and quote me on that one. Saab would disagree, but apparently the F1 people wouldn't. The other manufacturers would sort of agree...they are only half-heartedly into turbocharging gas motors these days. Apparently Ford with the new 5.0 thinks 11:00 : 1 is ok with our current pump gas...Blowers are ok still for me because of their "linear" nature. But you asked...and I'm done with turbo gas cars. I even made my wife get a c55 over a 335. She really liked the bimmer better, but we have never looked back. That NA Mercedes motor is unbelievable.

Back to your question...you asked for our opinion...mine is DON'T DO IT!!!!

Yeah, it will be fun, but it's ultimatley a colossal waste of money. Put your efforts into to something else. If you have to hear turbo's sing, your just screwed. I know, because I am ;)

There is too much better stuff out there for a lot less effort and money. The LT5 is a masterpiece...You could have a really, really badass car for what your about to embark on and spend...not hacked together junk that costs a serious fortune to do well. I'm thinking at least 30 g's doing the work yourself. I saw an LS9 in scoggin-dickey for 22 g's yesterday...you could put a ZR1 motor in a ZR-1!!!!!! Now that might be something...A really badass motor in pos C4! it would be a first for way less money and way more durable than what you're about to do...still hacked together junk though ultimately. ;) That's over 600 ponies at 6500...Yeah, it won't sound near as good...but who cares!

What do I know...I'm just as dumb as the rest of us. ;)

What kind of TIG do you have? Where will the turbo's live? I assume in the back since your slapping headers on. Why wouldn't you just save some effort and money and use one giant turbo? Unless your planning on being the first sequential twin turbo ZR-1. Best of luck to you...definitely keep us posted, I'm sure all of us will love to learn from what you run into, especially if you go with a different FI system and the harness. I've been wondering about that one for years...no one's done it yet!!! Right? who's building the pistons?

Thats my $.02, well maybe $2.00

Rick =)
:cheers::cheers:

[todesengel]

Thank you for the response. You will see my answers to your questions in red

Dude, that is hardcore. So what FI system are you gonna run? To my knowledge, which is very limited, you will probably be the first one that has done it with an LT5.-The Haltech 2000 controls ignition, and fuel. It is an all inclusive standalone.

I think it's smart to go standalone so you can do stuff yourself and you will have an idiot proof interface...expecially with a twin turbo system...but a HUGE task. You will live fittings connectors and plumbing...not only in metal, but in wiring too. I've done one twin turbo car with accel DFI gen 7 stuff...it's anything but easy and I had a harness and only 8 injectors to deal with. I'm facing the same issues with an LT5 I own and wondering about staying stock or just starting over...I'm a long way from actually doing it...within a year or two...but I'm gonna have to deal with this decision as well...but I'm done with turbos.-I have been building turbo engines for ~10 years. I love the rush, so on it goes.

You can flame me all you want...but "turbo's are for diesels". Just go ahead and quote me on that one. Saab would disagree, but apparently the F1 people wouldn't. The other manufacturers would sort of agree...they are only half-heartedly into turbocharging gas motors these days. Apparently Ford with the new 5.0 thinks 11:00 : 1 is ok with our current pump gas...Blowers are ok still for me because of their "linear" nature. But you asked...and I'm done with turbo gas cars. I even made my wife get a c55 over a 335. She really liked the bimmer better, but we have never looked back. That NA Mercedes motor is unbelievable.-If you properly size your turbo for the application, it is possible to have excellent power under the curve. Too many people do not spend enough time looking at compressor maps to find out if the turbo will efficiently work for the application they are trying to utilize it on. Bigger isn't always better, and properly sizing the a/r can make a dramatic difference in the power band.

Back to your question...you asked for our opinion...mine is DON'T DO IT!!!!- I have heard that many time, and probably the most sound advice one could give :pray

Yeah, it will be fun, but it's ultimatley a colossal waste of money. Put your efforts into to something else. If you have to hear turbo's sing, your just screwed. I know, because I am ;)-Reminds me of the quote; "most of my money went towards cars, booze and women, and the rest was just wasted". It is all a matter of perception, I personally find great joy in accomplishing something, even if it takes me a few times to get it right lol.

There is too much better stuff out there for a lot less effort and money. The LT5 is a masterpiece...You could have a really, really badass car for what your about to embark on and spend...not hacked together junk that costs a serious fortune to do well. I'm thinking at least 30 g's doing the work yourself. I saw an LS9 in scoggin-dickey for 22 g's yesterday...you could put a ZR1 motor in a ZR-1!!!!!! Now that might be something...A really badass motor in pos C4! it would be a first for way less money and way more durable than what you're about to do...still hacked together junk though ultimately. ;) That's over 600 ponies at 6500...Yeah, it won't sound near as good...but who cares!-Woahh there cowboy, I have never heard any of my builds called "junk", and I certainly do not hack anything. Two of the cars I built went straight to the top at car shows, winning top prize in their categories. I am very patient, and anal with my builds. It is indeed a masterpiece, but when I am done with mine it will still be the same for me. 600 ponies is not my goal, I want more, way more than that.

What do I know...I'm just as dumb as the rest of us. ;)-lol, opinions are good, even if you have trouble following your own advice lol

What kind of TIG do you have?- Miller dynasty 700dx

Where will the turbo's live?-look to replace the mufflers, not a lot of choices unless I want to strip the car. Nothing is written in stone yet.

I assume in the back since your slapping headers on. Why wouldn't you just save some effort and money and use one giant turbo? Too much lag with low compression engines. I am not a large single lover, that is for sure. They work for some, but not for me.


Unless your planning on being the first sequential twin turbo ZR-1. Best of luck to you...definitely keep us posted, I'm sure all of us will love to learn from what you run into, especially if you go with a different FI system and the harness. I've been wondering

that one for years...no one's done it yet!!! Right? who's building the pistons?- J.E. will be doing that, after I send them exact specs when I dissasemble the spare.

Thats my $.02, well maybe $2.00=Love the post, thank you very much. I am not concerned with wiring, or fab work. I'll post some pics of the build I did for my wife under this post. I am sure the groaners will come out in full force, but my work is clean, and I do not hack anything.

Rick =)
:cheers::cheers:

[todesengel]

Before
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/chaosrob/IMG_1572.jpg





After

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/chaosrob/jenssupe1.jpg

7m
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/chaosrob/7m4.jpg





rb31

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/chaosrob/rbs3.jpg

3sgte in all trac

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a260/chaosrob/all%20trac/tracengineshots4.jpg



wifes supra

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/girliesupra/Jens%20Car/37e48d9d.jpg

[Hammer]

Those are some pretty darn nice engine compartments.

Ron Hanselman and Jerry Downey have been working on a rear mounted twin turbo for awhile now. I think there may be a Lingenfelter TT there and possibly a SGC TT also. SGC's are front mounted in the wells where the antifreeze overflow and the injector pump were located. Lingenfelter I'm not sure about. I hope they are all there for your (and my) viewing pleasure.

See ya in a few days.

[todesengel]

Thanks. I talked to Ron about his system, and that is always a possibility. Once I get into this thing and start tossing out what is not essential with the standalone, and relocate the battery and standalone to the passenger compartment, I will see how much room I have.

I am most interested in the conversion to closed deck that some have done, no sense in re-inventing the wheel if others have been there, done that. I would really like to have my build done by October so I can do something different ont he 20th anniversary of our cars :prayThose are some pretty darn nice engine compartments.

Ron Hanselman and Jerry Downey have been working on a rear mounted twin turbo for awhile now. I think there may be a Lingenfelter TT there and possibly a SGC TT also. SGC's are front mounted in the wells where the antifreeze overflow and the injector pump were located. Lingenfelter I'm not sure about. I hope they are all there for your (and my) viewing pleasure.

See ya in a few days.