Blue Smoke

[FULLPWR]

back in 2007 it didnt pass inspection, in garage waiting for clutch repair, just got back on ground sat. from clutch install.
2006 put in new rc injectors, along with everything under the plenum.
smoke some even after.
2007 t/o bearing went out, cranked it up every week.
2008 huricane ike kick my a$$
2009 ike still kicking my a&&
2010 move new reason to work on Z
today drove it to work 50 miles
changed oil
changed rearend oil
balanced tires
repositioned prop shaft 180 to correct vibration, WORKED
headed back home 50 miles stopped by state inspectioncplace
then sitting on the drums it starts smoking blue like crazy out the pass side tailpipe, goes and comes. failed test
guy told me he could change out the cats ???

i left there confused of the smoke, it has smoke a lil way back so i wasnt to worried.
no ses lights
slight hesitation on acceleration
I pulled out and punched it second & third gear barks pulls hard feel boggy
but doesnt stop.
got home no blue smoke :confused::confused:

since it been sitting so long should i have changed the plugs?
i guess at least chk em
fuel- ihave always topped it off to prevent rusting, and just filled up sunday w/93 today topped it off againso fresh gas
no backfire, maybe slight i heard once not enough to blow off a hose

any thoughts on what it may be

[todesengel]

Generally speaking on dohc cars, the valve stem seals can go bad, and produce exactly the result that you are experiencing now. I am no lt5 expert, but intermittant smoking like that is usually the result of cracked/dry rotted/worn valve stem seals.

[FULLPWR]

sorry, i have a 90 29,580 approx miles
i searched some threads on smoke, saw where they say the early years dont have the seals, would mine be one? why just one pipe not both if they go thru the resonator?

[FULLPWR]

something I should of mentioned, today when i got to work i noticed the tailshaft seal was leaking, gonna put another in tomorrow, i must of pinch it somehow saturday, dumb question maybe but you think the trans oil that leaked onto the resonator maybe got iin thru those slight holes around the beaded edge?? i know it wouldnt explain the smoke fro the past but ....
i guess im thinking to much or not thinking right.:neutral:

[Zr1 Destroyer]

Blue smoke is oil from somewhere in your motor entering the combustion chamber. I wouldn't sweat it if the blue smoke has stopped.....maybe she needed to get cleared out after sitting!

[todesengel]

I guess I have a LOT to learn about these things. I am not quite sure how it is possible to have an ohc engine, and no stem seals :dunno:

[FULLPWR]

I guess I have a LOT to learn about these things. I am not quite sure how it is possible to have an ohc engine, and no stem seals :dunno:

maybe i read it wrong, i have no idea, i'm just trying to figure it out and really appreciate any info. on it and this whole forum. i dont post allot cuz i ont know alot !! its definitely me that has a whole lot to learn about the Z, i apologize if it came across as questioning your advice, i in no way meant it to read like that. thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!

where would think points of oil entry into the combustion chamber would be?

Luis

[todesengel]

maybe i read it wrong, i have no idea, i'm just trying to figure it out and really appreciate any info. on it and this whole forum. i dont post allot cuz i ont know alot !! its definitely me that has a whole lot to learn about the Z, i apologize if it came across as questioning your advice, i in no way meant it to read like that. thank you !!!!!!!!!!!!

where would think points of oil entry into the combustion chamber would be?

Luis
No apology necessary, you may be correct. I am a complete newbie to this car, and I in no way meant disrespect, or appear to be arrogant.

There are basically a few things that I can think of with ohc engines, but there may be more with an lt5. To be honest I have not had one apart yet, although I am going to buy one soon to start piddling with.

1) Valve stem seals
2) crankcase pressure
3) worn rings
4) cracked head
5) bhg
6) cracked block
7) WOrn valve guides.

[FULLPWR]

No apology necessary, you may be correct. I am a complete newbie to this car, and I in no way meant disrespect, or appear to be arrogant.

There are basically a few things that I can think of with ohc engines, but there may be more with an lt5. To be honest I have not had one apart yet, although I am going to buy one soon to start piddling with.

1) Valve stem seals
2) crankcase pressure
3) worn rings
4) cracked head
5) bhg
6) cracked block
7) WOrn valve guides.

thats great !! your gonna love it, i realydont have muchtime in mine but what i have had ...nothing else can compare!!! at least to me anyway:cheers:

[FULLPWR]

Blue smoke is oil from somewhere in your motor entering the combustion chamber. I wouldn't sweat it if the blue smoke has stopped.....maybe she needed to get cleared out after sitting!

could it be the pcv valves are pulling it in?
I need to run it again see how much smoke comes out, then open her up again, could the bog be related to something else?

[Hammer]

90's didn't have seals on the exhaust valves.

[todesengel]

thats great !! your gonna love it, i realydont have muchtime in mine but what i have had ...nothing else can compare!!! at least to me anyway:cheers:
Oh I already have the zr-1, I just want a spare lt5 to piddle with so I have it figured out before I have to work on it in the car lol

[todesengel]

90's didn't have seals on the exhaust valves.
did the rely soley on a tight fit in the valve guides? Wear would certainly promotoe leakage if this is the case after some miles. Do they offer an upgrade, or is the head casting different from 90 to 91-95?

[FULLPWR]

Oh I already have the zr-1, I just want a spare lt5 to piddle with so I have it figured out before I have to work on it in the car lol

told you i couldnt read:thumbsup:

[FULLPWR]

I found a vacuum leak in the rubber grummet that connects to two pipes protruding out right behind th tb right under the tb linkage/elec connector that holds one blk plastic hose feeding looks like the canister in the driver side front and one pipe feeding the silicones F connection pcv 's .

would that contribute to my smoking problem?
it went back to smoking again.

[jonszr1]

yes that might cause it. but first why dont you pull the plugs and see what they look like .then share what you find . on your tailshaft seal leaking . do you do the clutch and t bearing change out ./?one thing that can cause a leak is if you /someone over torqued the bolts that hold the c beam at the trans .it can distort the tailshaft causing the seal to leak .

[scottfab]

a 90 can have exhaust seals if someone had them retro'd in. A number of cars have been done. Mine is a 90 and hasn't. It will smoke a bit when at hi revs but out of both sides.
The best explanation I have read about why no seals were put in the 90 was that it was an English/Lotus preference for lubrication at hi rpms.

It'd look at plugs like other have said followed by a compression test.

[phrogs]

did the rely soley on a tight fit in the valve guides? Wear would certainly promotoe leakage if this is the case after some miles. Do they offer an upgrade, or is the head casting different from 90 to 91-95?


Don't know what "they" relyed on but we only have seals on the intakes.

You can machine the heads for valve seals if you want to

[USAFPILOT]

Hey, you live just a little bit north of me...we should meet up one day.

I think you should just take the car to Corey Henderson in New Braunsfels TX and let him diagnose it before you just start throwing money at it.

There is also that guy in Conroe that built the Bonneville ZR-1 that went 220 on the salt flats. Corey built his motor, but maybe he would have an idea.

I personally am no engine specialist, but the blue smoke would bother me too.

In fact my 2004 Nissan Titan does it during start up, but only after I crank it up and then shut it right back off. I might do that when repositioning it in the driveway to get the Z out. Some of the Titan guys says they do that because all the oil gets pushed up into the motor, and then while it is shutoff it drains somewhere it shouldn't, and has something to do with the thickness of the oil right then.

The Titan is also a DOHC V8.

GL

[tomtom72]

FULLPWR, when was the last time the PCV's were changed out?

Not trying to be a wise guy, but I notice on mine that after about a summer's worth of use they are pretty much gummed up. If I try to shake them the check ball is not moving freely. Our 90 motors pass a ton of oil fumes thru the PCV system and I change my PCV's every winter.

I'd just pull the PCV's and give them a shake to see if they make a good clean metallic sounding rattle....after 5k mine usually have a very muffled sound to the rattle, not metallic sounding at all. JMHO:o

:cheers:
Tom

[flyin ryan]

The exhaust valve seal on or off debate is long & old. I see a lot of engines still today (performace mills) that don't have exhaust valve seals. I don't get it, myself. I always use them on Intake & Exhaust. I understand 'Why' some choose to 'Not' use any, I just don't agree with those trains of thought. You 'Can' put Exhaust valve seals on 90's with out machining. I can provide a seal part number to anybody that would like, just send me a PM.

[scottfab]

The exhaust valve seal on or off debate is long & old. I see a lot of engines still today (performace mills) that don't have exhaust valve seals. I don't get it, myself. I always use them on Intake & Exhaust. I understand 'Why' some choose to 'Not' use any, I just don't agree with those trains of thought. You 'Can' put Exhaust valve seals on 90's with out machining. I can provide a seal part number to anybody that would like, just send me a PM.

I was unaware of any debate. I don't know of anyone that thinks it's a bad idea. I could be wrong.
Me I don't have seals cause there's been no compelling reason to rip into the engine for just that. But........... now I may have another unrelated issue so maybe I'll get the seals in.
What's that part # and how do they hold down if there is no machined grove?

[FULLPWR]

our work network, phones, email were down today I couldnt get on internet. just got home and going to pull couple plugs, i had replaced everything under the plenum in 2006 and it wasnt on the road until this past saturday, I did make sure i let it run at least every week or so, only had to recharge the battery maybe three times or so. even when on stands idling it would smoke but i just figured it just needed a good running on the ground. the seal leak is a pin hole in the seal i must of hit or something, i didnt get to change it yesterday(go to work @ 4:30a.m. get home @ 6pmish, I did the clutch change out myself with a buddy, 37ftlb was what i ended up with on the tailshaft and i did that in small increments of 2-5ftlbs starting at 20 cuz it just didnt feel right when it was tighting up it just kept going i also put beam plates so iwas taking it easy after reading other threads about over tightening it. I took it to Corvettes of houston with the intent to just get the tires balanced, they did & told me one of my rears was lumpy prob from sitting prior to having it on stands, they used a borescope to look at the seal, I could see the seal bleeding at the top, oil every where but not soaked, since it was on the rack vs my stands i wanted to get as much done as i could:mrgreen: honestly i want to do as much as i can myself to make sure its right, but man ive been waiting too *&%$ long to get her running & they let me hang with them so i also changed the oil thats when they had to send out for a oil filter PF970C 25014155,and my gut was twisting i failed to geta find out from u guys what filter, last nite i had asked is it the right one in another thread thinkng its what was causing the excessive blue smoke, changed out the diff oil added the gm additive too. the guys are great there, also where i bought my 99 coupe from.
sounds great GL i dont want to throw any more $ than i have too either.

i need to get outside and pull plugs...
what the best way to fix that grummet pipe i mentioned without silicone, it had silicone in 2006 when i chuncked it and put the new evidently its moved with the heat i guess and deformed a lil i will take some pics
gotta go....................

thanks!!!!

[FULLPWR]

ok, pulled all but #8 my sidewinder & my lil shorty are at work, get it out later and camera wont focus right in macro for pics

#3,5,7 & #2,4,6 insulator is yellowish brown #1 insulator is off white
all of them have very small white deposits between the side & center electrode (the gap) as if it was building up between them to close if i explained that right.

looking down inside each of them its black but not oily.
anti-siege has a numbing effect when taste tested...dont ask how i did that.

[FULLPWR]

FULLPWR, when was the last time the PCV's were changed out?

Not trying to be a wise guy, but I notice on mine that after about a summer's worth of use they are pretty much gummed up. If I try to shake them the check ball is not moving freely. Our 90 motors pass a ton of oil fumes thru the PCV system and I change my PCV's every winter.

I'd just pull the PCV's and give them a shake to see if they make a good clean metallic sounding rattle....after 5k mine usually have a very muffled sound to the rattle, not metallic sounding at all. JMHO:o

:cheers:
Tom

great idea thanks gonna change them both out just to make sure, i wonder if those oil fumes would generate enough to cause the smoke im getting, i gotta get camera smart quick so i can upload a video of it.
thanks!!

[flyin ryan]

I was unaware of any debate. I don't know of anyone that thinks it's a bad idea. I could be wrong.

I don't mean in the LT-5 world, to be clear, I mean the engine world in general. I think it was mentioned on here already, some high RPM guys like to run tight clearances for a number of reasons & keep the seal off to compensate. Most guys though just think they don't help. All I know is of all the engines I take apart, the ones with seal's (Exh.) have way cleaner combustion chambers & Exhaust ports than the ones that run 'No' seals. Oil don't make power in the comb. chamber, last time I checked...

[FULLPWR]

plugs

in 2006 i pulled out AC Delco 41-602's
for some reason i put in AC Delco 41-913's

since the 41-602 is a metal washer flt and the 41-913's are tapered....

what do i put in now ??????

also I just found a blown 25a fuse in my A.I.R pump.....

anybody please chime in...the only reason i went looking for it cuz went page by page in the service manual looking for anything i could ck.

do you think that is the culprit to my smoking problem????????

[FULLPWR]

ttt

plugs

in 2006 i pulled out AC Delco 41-602's
for some reason i put in AC Delco 41-913's

since the 41-602 is a metal washer flt and the 41-913's are tapered....

what do i put in now ??????

also I just found a blown 25a fuse in my A.I.R pump.....

anybody please chime in...the only reason i went looking for it cuz went page by page in the service manual looking for anything i could ck.

do you think that is the culprit to my smoking problem????????

[tomtom72]

I doubt that the plug seat change is the root of the smoking issues. We can change to using tapered seat plugs. There is a T/Q'ing procedure that I don't remember that reforms the flat head seat into a tapered seat. I just don't know the particulars as I use the flat seat plugs in my 90. The only way oil gets in thru the plug holes is if the O-rings in the cam covers fail, I think that's right?...maybe also if the anaerobic sealer fails too...:o...sorry this is where my knowledge base gets a bit thin. I've been under the plenum 4 times, but that's as far into the motor that I've been. :o

The fuse for the AIR system being blown so the system is down I can't see causing excessive blow by either. That AIR system usually is most active upon a cold start up, sometimes upon a semi-warm restart it comes on also. Otherwise after the motor is at normal temp, it just takes up space.

I am loath to bring this up....as it is distasteful but I see a leak down test and a compression test in order to check further into this situation. The only thing I can suggest before those tests is get a good vacuum gauge with a large dial head and connect it an take a vacuum reading at idle, hot coolant. Back in the stone age, I was taught that a vac gauge can tell you quite a bit about things like worn valve guides, bad cam timing, late ignition timing, worn rings, bad valve seals, weak valve springs, lean mixture, timing is off. I mean not like a scanner tells you stuff but it kind of gives which direction you could be looking.

I keep this link in my favorites: http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/186.cfm so I don't forget how to use one...:o

Plug chart link: http://www.4secondsflat.com/plug_chart.html I keep this stuff so I don't mess up! What are your plugs saying?

Soooooo, the PCV's were okay? And, don't take this the wrong way, you're sure the smoke is blue? You sniffed it & actually stood behind at the tail pipes and sampled it? I hate to be old school about 'puter controlled cars, but when my injectors started to go south I used my nose as a diagnostic tool. I stood behind my car and smelled the exhaust. When the injector coils started to short, the lean smell would make your eyes water it got so bad!

:cheers:
Tom

[FULLPWR]

Tom, link on plugs was just what i was trying to find..

1 plug is identical to #19
6 plugs look like #19 but the insulators are yellowish brown like #12
I didnt get #8 plug out yet...i know it's incomplete diagnosis if i dont get that one and look at , up against the clock on so much crap.
but there are no oil deposits....what you think now?

to take out the pcv's today.

I'm 90% sure it is blue, but your right i need to be 100% sure i'll do like you said today.

I put RC 210's injectors in 2006 (motor just doesnt have run time maybe they are lil lazy).

no oil deposits, clean plugs so far, maybe i am smoke colored blind?!

what im going to do by the end of weekend is:
change plugs, fix smog pump, change pcvs, fix vac leak at rubber block,
change fuel filter, replace the trans seal, try to check codes(havent seen the ses light at all) then try that vacuum test as you described.

thank you Tom! :thumbsup:
thanks GUYS :thumbsup:
i will report back status......
Luis

[tomtom72]

For plug 8 use this link:thumbsup:
http://zr1netregistry.com/ZR1_techtips.htm

Okay, I'm gonna go out on a limb a bit Luis, check them PCV's because there ain't no oil on those plugs....#8 we need to see but I kind of doubt it will have anything other than look like a combo of 19 & 12.

Oh, sorry. :hello: Luis, I'm Tom!:handshak:

Also, I know somewhere there is a write up on how to make the heads accept/ use a tapered seat spark plug....I just don't remember where I saw it as when I got my 90 I made up my mind to stick with the cheaper 41-602 plugs.

:cheers:
Tom

I just noticed that you have 210 RC's and not the usual 205's. Hummmmm, I'm wondering if they flow too much fuel and the smoke is actually black or slightly black due to the bigger injectors? I have to say this up front, I do not know enough about that stuff to make a call. Lets run down the rest of the stuff first before I have you go off in a fruitless direction.

[bobbyhi]

Are the PCV's readily available?? I think it is time to change mine. Never changed since I bought the Z a few years ago. I also am blowing some blue smoke............:(

[FULLPWR]

Are the PCV's readily available?? I think it is time to change mine. Never changed since I bought the Z a few years ago. I also am blowing some blue smoke............:(

you too huh...yesterday i went to autozone just to ck so i could get now & they dont stock them. gonna ck with this delco parts house at lunch today to see if they have them.. let you know.

[FULLPWR]

I just noticed that you have 210 RC's and not the usual 205's. Hummmmm, I'm wondering if they flow too much fuel and the smoke is actually black or slightly black due to the bigger injectors? I have to say this up front, I do not know enough about that stuff to make a call. Lets run down the rest of the stuff first before I have you go off in a fruitless direction.[/QUOTE]


maybe.....huh....:thumbsup:

[tomtom72]

Bob, usually I order the PCV's when I make my "winter maintenance parts order" at one of the online parts houses. I can't rely on the local parts stores for LT5 stuff in my area.

I do them every year, but then I do between 3k to 5k miles a year. I just consider most of what I buy every winter the cost of using my car as much as I can every summer. I hate doing any maintenance during the driving season, so I try to have it all covered before I start my season. I'm like a selfish little kid once the summer starts!:o

Louis, I really have to say that sizing injectors for a motor, let alone our motors, is waaaaay beyond my knowledge level. I'm still putting my bet on the PCV's....:mrgreen:

:cheers:

[bobbyhi]

Do you happen to have a part number and who you order from???
Thanks:thumbsup:





Bob, usually I order the PCV's when I make my "winter maintenance parts order" at one of the online parts houses. I can't rely on the local parts stores for LT5 stuff in my area.

I do them every year, but then I do between 3k to 5k miles a year. I just consider most of what I buy every winter the cost of using my car as much as I can every summer. I hate doing any maintenance during the driving season, so I try to have it all covered before I start my season. I'm like a selfish little kid once the summer starts!:o

Louis, I really have to say that sizing injectors for a motor, let alone our motors, is waaaaay beyond my knowledge level. I'm still putting my bet on the PCV's....:mrgreen:

:cheers:

[VetteMed]

Right side PCV valve CV913C
Left side PCV valve CV769C

[bobbyhi]

Right side PCV valve CV913C
Left side PCV valve CV769C



Thanks for the info..........you guys are the greatest:handshak:

[bobbyhi]

Hopefully the last question....There is a white tie-strap on them. Do I have to replace the strap????

[FULLPWR]

Bob,
I found the pcv's today @ X-L Parts in houston 281-445-9109
CV913C & CV769C. i bought a few extra if you have trouble finding them let me know.

Luis

oh they had the fuel filter also, GF652 supeceded the GF481

[bobbyhi]

Bob,
I found the pcv's today @ X-L Parts in houston 281-445-9109
CV913C & CV769C. i bought a few extra if you have trouble finding them let me know.

Luis

oh they had the fuel filter also, GF652 supeceded the GF481


Thanks for letting me know. I had a hard time finding the LH but did find one on Amazon. The RH is readily available from NAPA and O'Reilly's. Just replace the fuel filter last fall.

Still wondering about the tie-wrap if it is a factory install or done later. Someone will chime in and let me know.

[FULLPWR]

Thanks for letting me know. I had a hard time finding the LH but did find one on Amazon. The RH is readily available from NAPA and O'Reilly's. Just replace the fuel filter last fall.

Still wondering about the tie-wrap if it is a factory install or done later. Someone will chime in and let me know.


I guess mine didnt have a tie wrap, curious where is yours at ?
i put the silicone f hose with mini hose claps on it i got from whiteracing in 2006, but it didnt have a tie wrap that i can remember.

[FULLPWR]

ok tonite i fixed the vacuum leak next to the tps, changed out the pcv's, wanted to see if it changed anything b-4 plug changeout just to know what caused it if it fixed it or not.

cranked it up no smoke ran smooth then few seconds later started shaking as if missing real bad, smoking again.
slightly rev'd it just a little (oil not hot yet) smoothed out, then started shakingcagain.
trying hard to really determine the color of smoke i swear its bluish black.
i took a better look at the inside of the tailpipe and it look black black smooty.

took it out for a short drive and it runs good then hesitates at around 4-5k
got back and still smoking but less. shut it down got out and heard a whinning from hatch area like fuel pump, i opened gas hatch and it was the cap was just a hair loose. also noticed my serpentine tensioner is way to close to the crank pulley bout .060", need to get that before it wacks it.

from what you guys have described maybe it is a fuel issue......
going to change plugs tomorrow when engine is cold. then see what happens after. and then will try to see if i can pull any codes prob shoulda done that already but leary of poking in that plug.:eek:

[jonszr1]

maybe you have a friend that has a scann tool. h. you can ck for vacume leaks with a propane torch .(unlit ):o:p just attach about 3ft of 3/8 hose to it start the motor and turn the tank on and run the end of the hose over vacume areas if the rpms go up u have found you leak . also if you smoke dont while doing this test. but you also may have a fuel pump going out or a clogged fuel filter . just go slow and the problem will show itself .

[scottfab]

It's the old "ignition" or "fuel".
My most resent issue with a miss like this was a single bad plug on #3.
Years ago I did have a partial fuel pump failure which manifested differently than your description. Mine cut out completely for a few seconds at a time.
For fuel issues I always attach my specially long hosed fuel pressure gauge so I can view from the driver's seat.

I would suggest that if you use any type of propane to look for a vacuum leak that you have someone standby with a good fire extinguisher. Propane and natural gas scare the crap out of me, but then that's from almost being blown up when I was 19.

[FULLPWR]

smoking problem
today when changing that trans seal, I stopped to really look at the cats and found that both cats are HOLLOW, empty coffee cans.:eek:

took out #8 plug, was same as others, ok

to date i have intalled: pcv's, ngk's plugs, A.I.R. smog pump, fuel filter,

checked fuel pressure not running 52 lbs... uh still need to ck running

tomorrow going to try checking codes per manual,and fuel pressure running.

cant i just cut the cats off and install high flow cats for now and get an exhuast sys later????

Luis

[FULLPWR]

Found vacuum leak under plenum!!

anybody in houston have a set of plenum gaskets?

gonna pull it in the morning.

[bobbyhi]

Found vacuum leak under plenum!!

anybody in houston have a set of plenum gaskets?

gonna pull it in the morning.

Best place for gasketes is jerrysgaskets.com. He's not in Huston but takes care of you very quickly. Very active on the forum here. He's one of the good guys.....:thumbsup: He has everything you need.

[FULLPWR]

thanks bob:thumbsup:

was hoping to get some asap to be able to close it up tomorrow, but wont hurt to wait a day or two. i knew i shouldve had an xtra set..

[tomtom72]

Bob & Luis, the white zip strap is for sure "back yard / red neck engineering" at it's finest! I was doing that to my PCV holder set up before I bit the bullet and bought the samco set up. I also used a zip tie on the double rubber connector at the T/Body where the evap line & PCV suction line connect. I use black zip ties though!:o:sign10:

This is what I found to be a workable answer to our oil fumes in the PCV system. I put screw clamps on the samco holder to garb the bottoms of the PCV valves. I used an old school sprung steel fuel line clamp at the end of the F connector where the hard line comes into it. I used screw clamps at the tops of the PCV valves on the F connector. The samco stuff felt really tight when I first installed the kit, but after a coupla hundred miles I had an oil mess at the F-connector and the tops of the PCV valves. Added the clamps and now no more mess!:mrgreen:

Luis, I would like to just share something relating to diagnostics. This is what I think I learned from working on my car so far, so take it with several grains of salt. We have a lot of potential vacuum leak spots. Some of which could cause the ECM to try to change the fueling ( maybe make black smoke momentarily? ) if one of the MAP sensors can detect the extra air from the leak it might add fuel? Also, recently I swapped out my fuel pumps and they were within the FSM limits, but they were 20 yrs old. I have to say that the low speed hot knock under load that I've been chasing ever since I bought my car is now gone. Oh, and the throttle response is way crisper to boot! Oh, and she smells better at the tail pipes too when she's hot. I'm not saying that this is related to your issues. It's maybe just another story with a lesson(?), that's all.

I guess what I'm trying to say, badly I might add, is that for us back yard guys the interconnections of all the sub systems need to be carried in our minds when we try to diagnose some problem like a miss & vac leaks & smoke. I know for me, I was raised on holley carbs and points, so I'm still trying to educate myself with these cars. Sooo, don't get discouraged. We can help each other & we will even get the right answer.....but I figure that with intermittent driveability issues we need to think in "integrated" systems' issues? As an example of the systems thinking, I WAS WRONG about the size of the injectors. The ECM determines pulse width ( how much fuel to squirt ) not the ultimate flow capacity of the injector.

:cheers:
Tom

[FULLPWR]

Tom
that makes since..thanks i agree considering how its all interrelated is confusing but im getting there:thumbsup::thumbsup:

hey what do you think about the cats? cutting off ... please see earlier post i made in this thread.....

Luis

[A26B]

Something you said about running rough at idle & smoking initially after start up or idling.....

I also recall you replaced the injectors.

Suggestion: Before you reinstall the plenum, check fuel rail pressure with gauge. Turn key on only, do not start. observe pressure, turn key off & watch for pressure leakdown. The rough idle, smoothing out at higher rpm & the smoke sounds like it's loading up at low rpm from a leaking fuel injector.

if the fuel pressure bleeds down fairly quickly, pull the plugs again & smell for fuel in each cylinder. Or, you can pop out the fuel rail w/injectors, place towels under the injectors & turn the key on again. Watch for leaker(s).

[FULLPWR]

Something you said about running rough at idle & smoking initially after start up or idling.....

I also recall you replaced the injectors.

Suggestion: Before you reinstall the plenum, check fuel rail pressure with gauge. Turn key on only, do not start. observe pressure, turn key off & watch for pressure leakdown. The rough idle, smoothing out at higher rpm & the smoke sounds like it's loading up at low rpm from a leaking fuel injector.

if the fuel pressure bleeds down fairly quickly, pull the plugs again & smell for fuel in each cylinder. Or, you can pop out the fuel rail w/injectors, place towels under the injectors & turn the key on again. Watch for leaker(s).


i tested yesterday just like you just described, i got 52lbs and it held no leak down.

i just removed the plenum, the blk plastic vac hose under the airhorn was out of the rubber conn., i dont see anything else loose or off.

i put my hand vac pump directly to the sec actuator it pulls in then releases just as fast. i have to keep pumping the vac to get it to stay open . it that normal??

[FULLPWR]

how do i test the vac sys in there to make sure there are no other leaks?

assuming i didnt pull off that airhornor tb hose when pelling up plenun, i really dont think i did i was trying to be careful.

[FULLPWR]

oh the vac line coming from the sec vac pump itself, i disconnected it right before it enters the plenum and put a vac on it and it held at 20.
everything under there is new as of 2006 since has had maybe 300 miles on it.

[FULLPWR]

sorry to post indivduals i thunking slow.
but also i for got to say that yesterday when i determined i had a vac leak under there it was because when i would raise the ilde then let it go icould hear the hiss but only when i let it go, actually the leak sounds more like if you were stepping on the gas as if sucking air.

:confused:

[jonszr1]

there is a pm in your box. did you say that when you tested thew actuators that they didnt hold vacume .they shoud be fully open at about 10 in of vacume and stay open till you release the pressure . on the tie wraps .i use them on the silicone hose as the worm clamps dig into the silicone .which i didnt want . jmho . jerry gaskets is the place to get gaskets i have 3 extra sets but jerry can get them to you quicker . are you down by Katy tx if so i know someone who might loan you an extra set . let me know

[FULLPWR]

there is a pm in your box. did you say that when you tested thew actuators that they didnt hold vacume .they shoud be fully open at about 10 in of vacume and stay open till you release the pressure . on the tie wraps .i use them on the silicone hose as the worm clamps dig into the silicone .which i didnt want . jmho . jerry gaskets is the place to get gaskets i have 3 extra sets but jerry can get them to you quicker . are you down by Katy tx if so i know someone who might loan you an extra set . let me know


ok

actuators - i just ck the actuators pass side leaks down superfast
drivers side holds 10 steady,

resevoir - put 10 on the resevoir can and it holds 10 without closing off the other pipe, i switched sides and it wont hold 10 unless i close up the pipe. thinking that is good.

sec solenoid - i put 10in on the solenoid and it holds steady. good

connected back all hose except for one that goes to under the throttle body and two to top of plenum .......ckd vacuum at 15in connected to the main line coming from the sec vac pump...holds 15in steady.

my conclusion but please critique:
i need two actuators (so both are new)
need a set of plenum gaskets (two sets so im not stuck next pull)
super glue for the plastic to rubber conn's

i dont know if this might be contributing to the smoking ...not sure but as Tom noted the ecm may be thinking it needs more fuel.

what yall think??????

oh dam, i need to go look down the injector housings i saw lil oil when i pulled up the plenum:eek: that might be my smoking gun.... didnt do it at first was really concentrated on the vac stuff, and i got that sick gut feeling when i noticed some oil..so ilooked the other way....:o

luis

[FULLPWR]

inside the injector housing on cylinder #1 there is lil oil in there at the secondary throttle blades .

where would this be coming from?

[QB93Z]

It is normal to have a little oil in the plenum. Every plenum I have pulled has oil in it. The oil gets pulled in from the PCV system. Some guys have gone so far as to add an oil catch can to the PCV system, but most LT5's work fine just the way it is.

Jim

[FULLPWR]

It is normal to have a little oil in the plenum. Every plenum I have pulled has oil in it. The oil gets pulled in from the PCV system. Some guys have gone so far as to add an oil catch can to the PCV system, but most LT5's work fine just the way it is.

Jim


would that be answer my smoking problem?

i chkthe plug wires with a digital set on 200ki got the following:
#1 8.6
#3 6.2
#5 5.1
#7 4.3
#2 7.0
#4 6.9
#6 5.1
#8 5.8


i wanted to check the coils now i have plenum off what should the readings be ohm testing?

[jonszr1]

if you want to get plug wires think about the msd set for our cars. price is about the same and i think its a better quality wire .jmho

[QB93Z]

would that be answer my smoking problem?

The point I was making was that a small amount of oil in the plenum is normal and many, many ZR-1's run without making smoke.

Jim

[FULLPWR]

my accel coils using a digital meter set on 200k ohms:

#1 & #6 - 70.7
#5 & #8 - 7.2
#4 & #7 - 7.3
#2 & #3 - 7.2

that 70.7 is correct i cleaned the contacts very good cuz i thought i wasnt reading it right

plug wires with a digital set on 200k
#1 8.6
#3 6.2
#5 5.1
#7 4.3
#2 7.0
#4 6.9
#6 5.1
#8 5.8

how do my wire numbers look????
should i replace the wires????

whats up with the 70.7 reading????
should i replace all four coils????
if so, with what coils????

wheres the recommended place to get the actuators?

thanks guys:cheers:

[tomtom72]

Good morning fellars! Luis, sorry I had to leave Saturday. I had business on behalf of my parents that I tend to while they are wintering in FLA. I mind their commercial building. I clean it and I run the financial side while they're away.

Okay, where are we? I need Paul to show up as He is better with this ohm thing than I am.:o My answer when I replaced my injectors was to buy new GM coils and wires of my choice. Since I don't recall a spark test being done, do not ever pull a plug wire off when the motor is running, our ignition electronics boxes do not like that! Yes, I know that makes a spark test a real PIA. That's why I use 41-602's because I throw them out every winter as they're cheap! One less link to worry about. I used Magnecore 10mm wires as replacements and GM coils, now the only joker for at least 40k miles is the coils & wires, so they are maintenance items on a driven car. Coils = 30-40k miles?; my wires = when I get a shock grabbing them at idle...:p JMHO. If you have to ask how long in service, you may need to replace it....or write stuff in a log book. Reading your plugs, and minding what Jerry told you, I would say the ignition system is okay as are the injectors.

Actuator test & general vacuum diagnostics were well dunn! Yes one is N/G. You can buy two actuators or one, your choice. One thing with the actuators, some of them are assembled wrong. The arms were put in not centered on the diaphrams sooooo the fix is to mount them and use a mity vac to apply vacuum. Look to see that the arm moves smoothly and fully retracts by 8" ( I think that is the FSM benchmark ). If the arm doesn't move smoothly & / or fully open the 2* blades, take the actuator and flip it and do the test again. The object is that the arm fully retracts, and does so smoothly. The GM quality control on these parts is pretty bad and guys have gone thru a few to find two that work correctly without flipping them, or swapping them side to side ( no they're not side specific ). I tried that trick on the dealer I buy from, and they told me get off it. Okay, so maybe mine don't work 100%. By 10" Hg they are fully open, and they're positioned so that the arms move smoothly. Are they in correctly by the FSM? NO! but they work. I'm sure I'm missing some flow somewhere, I live with it.

I want to reassure you that yes there is enough oil in the plenum to do an oil change on a Cobalt...that's normal for our cars. Install one of those oil catch can things to eliminate that if you like. No one here will tell you any thing that is incorrect. We just say "I don't know" , but usually some one else knows & speaks up. That's the beauty of our Brotherhood. You want to mind the vacuum connections at the T/Body. That twin connector for the PCV + EVAP system is a pia. I used a zip strap and secured the inner end to the T/B. Then used another after the two lines are in to hold them, or your glue idea..no, use rtv. Then be very aware of the vacuum connection at the lower right side of the T/Body...everyone gets that one wrong once or twice so don't sweat it.

Okay back to the smoking. The vac leak @ the actuators could cause a miss, but I can't see it causing a "rich" smoke condition. I believe at WOT we are open loop = pre-selected fueling? The vacuum leak at the twin connector could cause a miss and I think upset the fuel enough to cause smoke?...I think. yea, I'm a bit weak on this 'puter stuff! So at this point I do not think I can be of any help due to lack of understanding of how the FI system really works. Guys like the FBI really know their stuff and maybe they will lend a hand. Oh, did you shake the PCV valves, were they free? If not that could be some of the smoke, maybe.

:cheers:
Tom

[FULLPWR]

Good morning fellars! Luis, sorry I had to leave Saturday. I had business on behalf of my parents that I tend to while they are wintering in FLA. I mind their commercial building. I clean it and I run the financial side while they're away.

Morning Tom, yea i think everybody was busy yesterday,it was great day to take of of the to do lists, i spent most of my day getting lost inthat serv manual, find something then ill be darned cant find it again, so i flipped evry page and sticky noted the major sections, why the heck is engine code 8 even in there....thought about taking all that out :razz:

Okay, where are we? I need Paul to show up as He is better with this ohm thing than I am. My answer when I replaced my injectors was to buy new GM coils and wires of my choice. Since I don't recall a spark test being done, do not ever pull a plug wire off when the motor is running, our ignition electronics boxes do not like that! Yes, I know that makes a spark test a real PIA. That's why I use 41-602's because I throw them out every winter as they're cheap! One less link to worry about. I used Magnecore 10mm wires as replacements and GM coils, now the only joker for at least 40k miles is the coils & wires, so they are maintenance items on a driven car. Coils = 30-40k miles?; my wires = when I get a shock grabbing them at idle... JMHO. If you have to ask how long in service, you may need to replace it....or write stuff in a log book. Reading your plugs, and minding what Jerry told you, I would say the ignition system is okay as are the injectors.

where did you get the GM coils??
i am confused with that 70.7 reading doesnt that mean it has too much resistance so it would be bad or on its way out, could that expalin the running fine then not all of a sudden...:confused:

Actuator test & general vacuum diagnostics were well dunn! Yes one is N/G. You can buy two actuators or one, your choice. One thing with the actuators, some of them are assembled wrong. The arms were put in not centered on the diaphrams sooooo the fix is to mount them and use a mity vac to apply vacuum. Look to see that the arm moves smoothly and fully retracts by 8" ( I think that is the FSM benchmark ). If the arm doesn't move smoothly & / or fully open the 2* blades, take the actuator and flip it and do the test again. The object is that the arm fully retracts, and does so smoothly. The GM quality control on these parts is pretty bad and guys have gone thru a few to find two that work correctly without flipping them, or swapping them side to side ( no they're not side specific ). I tried that trick on the dealer I buy from, and they told me get off it. Okay, so maybe mine don't work 100%. By 10" Hg they are fully open, and they're positioned so that the arms move smoothly. Are they in correctly by the FSM? NO! but they work. I'm sure I'm missing some flow somewhere, I live with it.

will do :thumbsup:

I want to reassure you that yes there is enough oil in the plenum to do an oil change on a Cobalt...that's normal for our cars. Install one of those oil catch can things to eliminate that if you like. No one here will tell you any thing that is incorrect. We just say "I don't know" , but usually some one else knows & speaks up. That's the beauty of our Brotherhood. You want to mind the vacuum connections at the T/Body. That twin connector for the PCV + EVAP system is a pia. I used a zip strap and secured the inner end to the T/B. Then used another after the two lines are in to hold them, or your glue idea..no, use rtv. Then be very aware of the vacuum connection at the lower right side of the T/Body...everyone gets that one wrong once or twice so don't sweat it.

i took off that blk rubber block, its with BFI waste somewhere, and reran vac line to power steer clamp conn. and the other i cut a short vac line to and attached it to that alum pipe that heads to the pcvs. Jonszr1 :thumbsup:helped shake that one ballbearing loose in my head on that one. everything is tight on that issue, well not now its disassembled, i was going to use some of those worm hose clamps on couple things under plen. but maybe the tie straps would be better like yours im thinking. is that oil catch thing something i have to do with plenum off or can i doit later?

Okay back to the smoking. The vac leak @ the actuators could cause a miss, but I can't see it causing a "rich" smoke condition. I believe at WOT we are open loop = pre-selected fueling? The vacuum leak at the twin connector could cause a miss and I think upset the fuel enough to cause smoke?...I think. yea, I'm a bit weak on this 'puter stuff! So at this point I do not think I can be of any help due to lack of understanding of how the FI system really works. Guys like the FBI really know their stuff and maybe they will lend a hand. Oh, did you shake the PCV valves, were they free? If not that could be some of the smoke, maybe.

:cheers:
Tom

hey i really appreciate evry comment and opinoin you have posted, as well as evry body elses, its a real good feeling to be able to bounce ideas & questions off others that have the same desire to keep these cars alive. Im a newbie for sure. but "i can feel it man"... "i can feel it" :-D

Luis

[jonszr1]

first off tom loved the quip about the amount of oil in our plenum . i remember the first time i looked inside my plenum scared me to death :jawdrop:. what alot of guys have done is either buy a seperator as i did or make their own ,and you can do that mod later if you want . just do a search on the suject and you will see what others have shared that they did .. while you have the plenum off go ahead and pull the starter and clean out the drain hole underneath it . tom did a real nice write up on things to ck . thats whats so special about this site , everyone shares what they have done , as we are all in the same boat we love our zr1s aqnd will do whatever we can to keep them on the road so we can enjoy that special sound only our motors make at 7000rpms we live for this:dancing. i just love the look on guys faces when they try to race you thinkin your easy pickens NOT. it makes me feel like i am a teenager again which for me was along time ago (60s) so take your time ,i gotta think she will run just fine when you put her back together. dont be afaid to open her up these cars just love it the more you do it . sure wish more ladies were like that :p

[tomtom72]

Luis I bought my GM coils from partszoneonline.com. They used to be a big chevy dealer in PA. They got axed in the new GM, but they still sell GM parts.

You're in TX, is Scroggins & Dickies still in business? Back in the old days, the 70's, they were the go to guys from the back pages of all the car rags.....yes, that's before the internet!....because I'm an old mofo:o :sign10:

Smart idea about that twin connector, that's what I'm doing to mine when I get around to it!:thumbsup:

The oil catch can can be dunn later because you already solved half of the issue of making a connection to the T/Body twin fitting. Search HawaiiZR1 and look at some of Craig's work on the catch can thing for some ideas on the how to side. Craig's stuff is sweet to look at!

:cheers:
Tom

[tomtom72]

Brad, thanks for the kudos. I want to send some back at you for helping here also, and every one else that jumped in! I know it sounds corny, but I believe in our Brotherhood.:thumbsup:

I just wish I had a better grasp of the ohm thing, and a lot of other things on these cars too! I hate to waste any body's cash on parts they don't need.:o

:cheers:
Tom

[jonszr1]

thanx for the kind words and the good laugh i got on the colbalt plunum oil deal. on the dual connector to do away with that blok of rubber our 90s have i just used some thin wall rubber tubing and a couple of the small tie wraps i tried the bigger ones but the small thin ones seemed to form better and dont feel bad i dont get the ohm/ elctrical deal very well either . too many funky things can happen ,maybe one day i will get it . everyone have a great wekend . writing this is going to make me go for an early morning cruize :thumbsup:

[FULLPWR]

i need help making a decision:

new coil packs

which ones do i buy?

where do i buy?

:worship:

[Hammer]

i need help making a decision:

new coil packs

which ones do i buy?

where do i buy?

:worship:

From previous posts, you should go with the stock GM coils. Lots of places, try P&G Chevy or GMPartsdirect. Part no. 10467067

[todesengel]

From previous posts, you should go with the stock GM coils. Lots of places, try P&G Chevy or GMPartsdirect. Part no. 10467067
Thanks, I just ordered new ones for my car as well with that part number :thumbsup:

[phrogs]

I just bought a set on flea bay

not sure if they have anymore but the price wasnt bad


auction number

200448994734

[todesengel]

I just bought a set on flea bay

not sure if they have anymore but the price wasnt bad


auction number

200448994734
hmm, the price from gm parts direct for three coils was;
SUB TOTAL: $121.53
SHIPPING: $26.74
TAX: $0.00
TOTAL WITH TAXES: $ 148.27

[FULLPWR]

I got em from partsladi and number1gmparts

thanks for the leads guys :thumbsup:

Luis

[FULLPWR]

got the coil packs....

the seconday side where wires plug onto ck:

coil#1 5.20 ohms
coil#2 5.31 ohms
coil#3 5.15 ohms
coil#4 5.21 ohms

are these good readings ?

Luis

[scottfab]

got the coil packs....
the seconday side where wires plug onto ck:

coil#1 5.20 ohms
coil#2 5.31 ohms
coil#3 5.15 ohms
coil#4 5.21 ohms
are these good readings ?

Luis

Seems in the ball park. These numbers were posted by Bloyer some years back:
5/8 = 5.7 ohms
4/7 = 5.6 "
1/6 = 5.7 "
2/3 = 5.7 "

I thought I had taken some numbers too on my new yellow Jegs coils when I put them in. Can't find them.

[FULLPWR]

Seems in the ball park. These numbers were posted by Bloyer some years back:
5/8 = 5.7 ohms
4/7 = 5.6 "
1/6 = 5.7 "
2/3 = 5.7 "

I thought I had taken some numbers too on my new yellow Jegs coils when I put them in. Can't find them.

cool thanks for the info that helps, want to get the best ones in there.

Isnt less ohms better? like the wires? i cant find anything that explains it, not worried cuz they are new and should work fine, but like to know just to know

:thumbsup:

[scottfab]

cool thanks for the info that helps, want to get the best ones in there.

Isnt less ohms better? like the wires? i cant find anything that explains it, not worried cuz they are new and should work fine, but like to know just to know

:thumbsup:

Too low is not good. It can mean shorted windings. However at 5.2 ish I don't think yours have any problem. They are clusted well.
Failures I 've seen are when the coil opens and worst of all when they become intermittent.

[phrogs]

hmm, the price from gm parts direct for three coils was;
SUB TOTAL: $121.53
SHIPPING: $26.74
TAX: $0.00
TOTAL WITH TAXES: $ 148.27


I refuse to deal with GM parts Direct aside from shiping cost that are outragous there are better places to buy parts.

I got 4 coils not 3.

GM parts direct price for 4 coils with shipping price $162.04 shipping $35.6 total cost = $197.69

[FULLPWR]

IT'S ALIVE !!!!!!!!

OMG.............So thats what the secondaries do.....:mrgreen:

-installed the coils
-had issues with the left actuator binding no matter what position, so i modified the arm with a few slight bends, realigned the mounting plate some, pulled in and let go full stroke with hand vac.
-put blk zip ties on everything i thought might move
-super glued the vac line to rubber grummet going to t/b, then stuck one of those red spraycan straws down it make sure i didnt clog it up with glue.
-installed new MAP sensor
-closed it up
-added coolant

cranked it up ..immediate SES light, white black smoke, very little blue.
idling with a bad miss, so i waited to let it warm up
idling about 1100.
ck'd for leaks coolant, vac, none !

the warmer she got the better the idle.
motor finally stop shaking bad, but still a little.
oil got to temp so i took it for a ride

ran through all the gears, very hesitant in second, and boggy in third.

decided it was time to see what it gonna do
so at about 20 i punched it, bogged down immediately, no ses light though,
then choked and spit, 6000 grand comes to dam fast.
slowed back down to 20 or so, punched it again, tearing up of payment man, popped second still chewing pavement about 6000 i think trying to watch road, c-beams i now know this difference whips me back in line, popped third front end up, popped fourth, couldnt see road my smile was to dam big :mrgreen::mrgreen:.
pulled into station, no more smoke not even blue :dancing chk under hood all cool.
then did it again runs 1000 times better than ever.

still think it needs run some more to clear it out,
idle back at home was just under 1000rpms no ses light
every once in a while it trembles a lil but pulls strong.
think it needs some tuning.

going to drive it to work tomorrow and see what it does.

BIG thanks to everybody:thumbsup:

[A26B]

I know the feeling! When i first bought the Zee, I had an elusive bad coil that drove me nuts. Initially I was really disappointed in the performance. After the coil was replace, whole different animal.

I think it will continue to improve, getting some of the carbon blown out & ECM learning.

[FULLPWR]

I know the feeling! When i first bought the Zee, I had an elusive bad coil that drove me nuts. Initially I was really disappointed in the performance. After the coil was replace, whole different animal.

I think it will continue to improve, getting some of the carbon blown out & ECM learning.

Hey, "GASKET KING" :worship:
It ran great this morning Jerry, those gaskets you sent me "EXCELLENT PERFECT FIT" Bad AZZZZ:thumbsup:

I talked to a guy about cutting off my empty Cats, I know this may be a quick fix but i need a sticker badddd, my sticker now is 07. houston cops no likey.

he said he can cut off the driver side cat, make a transition collar and weld up a hi-flow(+150in) cat and plumb into pipes before resonator.
passasenger side he can only place a cat behind the original empty one.
due to clearance issues.

I think Im going to do it, might not be or look right but it will definitely get me a sticker, so i have more time to work on getting a real exhaust system.

please, any comments or critiques VERY welcome????

thanks,
Luis

[tomtom72]

:mrgreen::thumbsup:

I'm happy for you Luis!

Okay, get the emissions sticker thing taken care of because John Law will make your life miserable.

I'm going to go back to the FSM to look for a reason that the car still has some "miss" issues. I don't know that I can promise to find the answer, but I promise that I will try.
I just don't understand why it still has a miss?:icon_scra

:cheers:
Tom

[todesengel]

I refuse to deal with GM parts Direct aside from shiping cost that are outragous there are better places to buy parts.

I got 4 coils not 3.

GM parts direct price for 4 coils with shipping price $162.04 shipping $35.6 total cost = $197.69
You know you are 100% correct, I am an idiot sometimes. I suppose I still have the 6 cyl mentality going on in my head since I ordered three coils, not four. Not sure where my head was. I will agree their shipping is stupid expensive. Thanks for the correction.

BTW, the hosesunder the plenum, what are you guys doing for these? Is there a simple replacement, or are you using an aftermarket silicone, etc?

Thanks

[todesengel]

Congrats to you! It is always nice to enjoy your accomplishment. I bet the next time you remove the plenum it will be 1/4 the job it was this time.

Ill be doing this soon, as well as installing my headers. Thanks for the pictures and the motivation!

IT'S ALIVE !!!!!!!!

OMG.............So thats what the secondaries do.....:mrgreen:

-installed the coils
-had issues with the left actuator binding no matter what position, so i modified the arm with a few slight bends, realigned the mounting plate some, pulled in and let go full stroke with hand vac.
-put blk zip ties on everything i thought might move
-super glued the vac line to rubber grummet going to t/b, then stuck one of those red spraycan straws down it make sure i didnt clog it up with glue.
-installed new MAP sensor
-closed it up
-added coolant

cranked it up ..immediate SES light, white black smoke, very little blue.
idling with a bad miss, so i waited to let it warm up
idling about 1100.
ck'd for leaks coolant, vac, none !

the warmer she got the better the idle.
motor finally stop shaking bad, but still a little.
oil got to temp so i took it for a ride

ran through all the gears, very hesitant in second, and boggy in third.

decided it was time to see what it gonna do
so at about 20 i punched it, bogged down immediately, no ses light though,
then choked and spit, 6000 grand comes to dam fast.
slowed back down to 20 or so, punched it again, tearing up of payment man, popped second still chewing pavement about 6000 i think trying to watch road, c-beams i now know this difference whips me back in line, popped third front end up, popped fourth, couldnt see road my smile was to dam big :mrgreen::mrgreen:.
pulled into station, no more smoke not even blue :dancing chk under hood all cool.
then did it again runs 1000 times better than ever.

still think it needs run some more to clear it out,
idle back at home was just under 1000rpms no ses light
every once in a while it trembles a lil but pulls strong.
think it needs some tuning.

going to drive it to work tomorrow and see what it does.

BIG thanks to everybody:thumbsup:

[phrogs]

Don't worry about it I figured you might have had 3 on the brain for some reason all those years with a 6 cyl will do that to you haha

sent you a PM on the hose I know there is a cheap solution to the breather hoses but need to find out what ones you are refering to.

jp

You know you are 100% correct, I am an idiot sometimes. I suppose I still have the 6 cyl mentality going on in my head since I ordered three coils, not four. Not sure where my head was. I will agree their shipping is stupid expensive. Thanks for the correction.

BTW, the hosesunder the plenum, what are you guys doing for these? Is there a simple replacement, or are you using an aftermarket silicone, etc?

Thanks

[GOLDCYLON]

congrats ! :thumbsup:

[FULLPWR]

thanks

today it ran really well, no smoking at all !!!

had the new cats piped in. PASSED emmisions test,
after new cats ran exactly the same but i got a sticker:dancing

still have that tremble at idle, cant tell if its there when running thru the gears though, but it feels like when timing is slightly retarded or i guess like its slightly congested somewhat.:dontknow:

i have never changed the oxygen sensors and with running it with those empty cats wondering if that may be causing that tremble. basically they are the only things left i havnt changed out except for that sensor under the ecm and the ecm itself.

:thumbsup:

[FULLPWR]

Changed out the oxygen sensors this afternoon, man the passenger side connector is tough to get to.

but still... while idling under 1000, running smooth then for a few seconds it trembles, then runs smooth. the rpms dont really move... its real quick when it changes. and happens about every 6 to 8 seconds.

it really doesnt affect the performance when driving, well as far as i can tell... it runs great then, only at idle i can feel the tremble sitting at a light.

:confused:

[FULLPWR]

:mrgreen::thumbsup:

I'm happy for you Luis!

Okay, get the emissions sticker thing taken care of because John Law will make your life miserable.

I'm going to go back to the FSM to look for a reason that the car still has some "miss" issues. I don't know that I can promise to find the answer, but I promise that I will try.
I just don't understand why it still has a miss?:icon_scra

:cheers:
Tom

Tom,
forgive me for my newbieness, as you know i havent had much time really driving the Z, to know any better about difference when secondaries kick in.
pwr key off, pulled hard in 2nd, no hesitation, no ses, no bog down, she goes to 6000rpm steady, but feels like something is holding her back.

pwr key on, pulled hard in 2nd pull, pulls noticeably stronger, gets to 6000rpm faster, no ses, no bog down, alot better, but still feels like something is holding her back.

I just dont know how to explain it but it just doesnt feel crisp, its almost like in just some other car that the timing is off on.

done to date :

NO SES lights at all
new plugs OK
ohm'd wires OK
new gm coils OK
new map OK
new diff. pressure sensor (under ecm) OK
new oxygen sensors (both) OK
new smog pump A.I.R. OK
new pcv's (both) OK
new fuel filter OK
NO secondary leaks OK
Fuel pressure 52lbs engine off Holding Steady OK
gone thru two tanks of 93oct. gas OK
Idles at just under 1000 rpm guessing 950 ish
end....

only things left to change out besides the cam&crank sensors
are the:

T.P.S.
Air Temp sensor
I.A.C. Valve

Am I missing something? :confused:

Luis

[Pete]

Luis
Just a couple of questions
What spark plugs you running?
If i had to geuss Bosch Platinum or the likes of some expensive plug,cause we all know the more it costs the more better it is :sign10:

Where did you gap them?

Pete

[FULLPWR]

Luis
Just a couple of questions
What spark plugs you running?
If i had to geuss Bosch Platinum or the likes of some expensive plug,cause we all know the more it costs the more better it is :sign10:

Where did you gap them?

Pete

hey Pete,

NGK Iridiums

Gapped @ .035" - .037"

[Pete]

hey Pete,

NGK Iridiums

Gapped @ .035" - .037"

I don't know much about those plugs.

But i would take a shot in the dark and try some regular resistor plugs they are the cheapest ones should cost you about $10 for the set.
Gap is good .035

Like i said it's a shot in the dark,i had an easy once drove me nuts for 2 days turned out it had a bad plug.

Pete

[FULLPWR]

I don't know much about those plugs.

But i would take a shot in the dark and try some regular resistor plugs they are the cheapest ones should cost you about $10 for the set.
Gap is good .035

Like i said it's a shot in the dark,i had an easy once drove me nuts for 2 days turned out it had a bad plug.

Pete

will do.......do you think i should go with the 41-602's ? (1990z)
I had them a long time ago but z had alot of issues back then so i wouldnt of known if they were working good or not, 07 I put 41-913's in, and still didnt have her running to tell, it wasnt till just recently i put the irridiums in to just try something new and different.

[Pete]

will do.......do you think i should go with the 41-602's ? (1990z)
I had them a long time ago but z had alot of issues back then so i wouldnt of known if they were working good or not, 07 I put 41-913's in, and still didnt have her running to tell, it wasnt till just recently i put the irridiums in to just try something new and different.


Yes,for the price you have nothing to loose,but $10

Pete

[tomtom72]

Luis, I'll send back the 41-602's...???? My favorite plugs.:)

Also check the TPS reading. You would like to see 0.54 volts. She should get to 7k rpms in full power mode with no effort at all.

I doubt that the IAC will have any effect on high rpm feel.

Also, I always forget to mention this because I did this mod to my air duct the first weeks I owned my car. Is your air duct the original? Feel it to see how easy it crushes. Yes, at WOT an LT5 will actually suck that duct closed if it is old and soft. Makes the car seem constipated, or so I've been told.

http://zr1netregistry.com/Old_Proj/old_proj19.htm

This is the really nice way to do it. I bought some 8" round dryer duct. Measured off about enough to fit in between the clamp spots, flattened enough to get it to look oval, greased it with silicone and shoved it inside my OE duct. Then I took a 2" x 4" nailer plate and bent a right angle bend at each end so I'd have about a 1/2" foot and used peanut screws from the outside to secure it in place so it would make the middle stand up and not suck closed. It was a bit of over kill, but when I pushed on the middle of the length of the duct it would deform....so I made the center support. It sure ain't purdy...but my air duct don't get sucked shut at 7k...[-X

:cheers:
Tom

[scottfab]

L
Also, I always forget to mention this because I did this mod to my air duct the first weeks I owned my car. Is your air duct the original? Feel it to see how easy it crushes. Yes, at WOT an LT5 will actually suck that duct closed if it is old and soft. Makes the car seem constipated, or so I've been told.

http://zr1netregistry.com/Old_Proj/old_proj19.htm

This is the really nice way to do it. I bought some 8" round dryer duct. Measured off about enough to fit in between the clamp spots, flattened enough to get it to look oval, greased it with silicone and shoved it inside my OE duct. Then I took a 2" x 4" nailer plate and bent a right angle bend at each end so I'd have about a 1/2" foot and used peanut screws from the outside to secure it in place so it would make the middle stand up and not suck closed. It was a bit of over kill, but when I pushed on the middle of the length of the duct it would deform....so I made the center support. It sure ain't purdy...but my air duct don't get sucked shut at 7k...[-X

:cheers:
Tom

Wow what a cluttered garage. That was back in 1999 or so. The new garage has almost no clutter and there is a separate shop area.
I went with a smooth surface on the aluminum sheet metal to keep a smooth air flow path.:wave:

[FULLPWR]

Luis, I'll send back the 41-602's...???? My favorite plugs.Also check the TPS reading. You would like to see 0.54 volts. She should get to 7k rpms in full power mode with no effort at all.

I doubt that the IAC will have any effect on high rpm feel.

Also, I always forget to mention this because I did this mod to my air duct the first weeks I owned my car. Is your air duct the original? Feel it to see how easy it crushes. Yes, at WOT an LT5 will actually suck that duct closed if it is old and soft. Makes the car seem constipated, or so I've been told.

http://zr1netregistry.com/Old_Proj/old_proj19.htm

This is the really nice way to do it. I bought some 8" round dryer duct. Measured off about enough to fit in between the clamp spots, flattened enough to get it to look oval, greased it with silicone and shoved it inside my OE duct. Then I took a 2" x 4" nailer plate and bent a right angle bend at each end so I'd have about a 1/2" foot and used peanut screws from the outside to secure it in place so it would make the middle stand up and not suck closed. It was a bit of over kill, but when I pushed on the middle of the length of the duct it would deform....so I made the center support. It sure ain't purdy...but my air duct don't get sucked shut at 7k...[-X

:cheers:
Tom

lol Tom aint that funny as he(( ;) i'll get some more on the way home today, besides dont have to hassle with shipping :cheers:

yea, i did replace the original air duct with shiny new one from kurt a while back, but i have yet to put something in it, i saw one at the bay that is made of nylonglass something ...:dontknow: i didnt think about it till you mentioned it, i need to do that.

i was searching last nite and so that .54v so i tried today but couldnt get in to make contact, i was going to stop and get some needles, i read in a thread that someone used to stick in there then touch em with the probe
to get the reading. blue & black !

think ill get the plugs then ck TPS voltage first, report back before i pull the plugs, just to know chnges if any.

thanks :icon_thum
Luis

[tomtom72]

Wow what a cluttered garage. That was back in 1999 or so. The new garage has almost no clutter and there is a separate shop area.
I went with a smooth surface on the aluminum sheet metal to keep a smooth air flow path.:wave:

That's your "How To" write up? Wow, I've meet a ZR-1 celebrity:handshak:

Scott, thanks for writing up all those tips in the Maintenance section over at the mother ship!:thumbsup:

I spent the entire first winter going thru all of those so I'd be ready to go my first summer with my new Z. Not much corvette driving going on during a NY winter.

I should snap some picts of the garage space that I used to work in...and of my work bench ( shop is too nice a word to use in my case )...:sign10:

Straight up man, thanks for all those write up's Scott!

Luis, over at Marc Haibeck's site there maybe a write up on how to make his solution to the collapsing duct issue. His is simpler to do.
http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/products/hoops.htm

:cheers:
Tom

[FULLPWR]

thanks Tom, here's the number to the one thats nylon
item# 310059954936

Luis

oh, is this the oil catch can system you mentioned item# 360255987219

[tomtom72]

That intake duct liner sure is sweet! I wish mine was that purdy....mine is smooth, but it looks like a shade tree red neck engineer made it...:eusa_shhh

The catch can is nice. A little loud for my taste....:sign10:.....and I'm not so sure how well it will work with both fittings on the top of the can. Most have the fittings at different levels. They also don't say what the filter medium is made from?

I've been looking at these: this one is my fav, http://www.accmachtech.com/catchcans.asp

these are others I was looking at: http://www.customcorvetteaccessories.com/oilcatchcan.html

and this one: http://www.eliteengineeringusa.com/Catch_Can.html

:cheers:
Tom

[FULLPWR]

finally got a camera :dancing

[scottfab]

That's your "How To" write up? Wow, I've meet a ZR-1 celebrity:handshak:

Scott, thanks for writing up all those tips in the Maintenance section over at the mother ship!:thumbsup:

I spent the entire first winter going thru all of those so I'd be ready to go my first summer with my new Z. Not much corvette driving going on during a NY winter.

I should snap some picts of the garage space that I used to work in...and of my work bench ( shop is too nice a word to use in my case )...:sign10:

Straight up man, thanks for all those write up's Scott!

Luis, over at Marc Haibeck's site there maybe a write up on how to make his solution to the collapsing duct issue. His is simpler to do.
http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/products/hoops.htm

:cheers:
Tom

Well I don't know about "Celebrity" :notworthy but you're welcome. I learned a lot from those that went before me (Hib, Vandorn, Mom, Marc, others) One thing I can say. The fixes I did as a result of posted "How to" projects stayed fixed so they're good to go.
For grins, I will post a pic of my current garage on a new thread if I don't find an existing one.

[scottfab]

http://www.zr1specialist.com/HAT%20Web/products/hoops.htm

I forgot to mention, before I did the bellows How To I tried using a single 1/4 wire insert in 1997. It worked ok but had the unfortunate side effect of causing an uneven look to the bellows. That is why I went with the 0.10 thick sheet of aluminum

[FULLPWR]

Also check the TPS reading. You would like to see 0.54 volts. She should get to 7k rpms in full power mode with no effort at all.
Tom


Tom,

TPS chks - .50 volts
Increasing the throttle, voltage increments move fairly smooth up to WOT.
Max. voltage of 4.51 volts @ WOT
Shouldnt the max voltage @ WOT be higher?
(sorry I dont have my manual with me today)


as far as the IAC valve is there any special instructions i need to change it, it has a clip on the new one, im not sure if im suppose to set it or something??



Luis

[tomtom72]

Luis, the TPS readings look good to go to me. Please check that the air duct is not sucking shut....I don't want to sound like a "know it all"....because I'm not!...but you would be amazed at how much air these motors use at high rpms...man even at idle it will suck in small animals.

I think the air duct is proly causing the reluctance you are having at high rpms.

:cheers:
Tom

Scott, thanks anyway for doing all that work...I know what you mean about "
the people that came before".....that's what makes being an owner of one of these cars, and a registry member so special.....it truly is the people!:mrgreen:

[FULLPWR]

Tom, Youre right !!!....:thumbsup: the duct does seem to be moving to me, I'm not sure which way to go so many options for that, thanks for all the info on it...i was think quick ck fix I would form up some .187" s/s spring wire we have here at work and fit it in there maybe two oval rings and see how it works.

I might of been posting when you read the thread last....is there a setting I need to do for the IAC ?

[tomtom72]

Luis, you could loosen the screws that hold the TPS and move it till you get 0.54volts at hot idle....on my 90 the TPS has slots that allow for some adjustment once the hold down screws are loose.

On the IAC, I don't have my FSM handy. I know there is a "learn" process that it goes thru, but beyond that I don't know much. I never had the need to replace mine. You know the passage for the IAC could be just dirty. Last week I pulled the IAC and used some throttle body cleaner on a paper towel to clean that passage. Maybe just try that for starters?

I'll go get my FSM and look up the IAC. I'll post back at lunch break.:thumbsup:

[FULLPWR]

I forgot to mention, before I did the bellows How To I tried using a single 1/4 wire insert in 1997. It worked ok but had the unfortunate side effect of causing an uneven look to the bellows. That is why I went with the 0.10 thick sheet of aluminum


Scott, did you make any extras, you may want to sell ????

:cheers:
Luis

[FULLPWR]

Luis, you could loosen the screws that hold the TPS and move it till you get 0.54volts at hot idle....on my 90 the TPS has slots that allow for some adjustment once the hold down screws are loose.

On the IAC, I don't have my FSM handy. I know there is a "learn" process that it goes thru, but beyond that I don't know much. I never had the need to replace mine. You know the passage for the IAC could be just dirty. Last week I pulled the IAC and used some throttle body cleaner on a paper towel to clean that passage. Maybe just try that for starters?

I'll go get my FSM and look up the IAC. I'll post back at lunch break.:thumbsup:


cool ill go do that right now thanks man:thumbsup:

[FULLPWR]

here's the IAC i just pulled out:jawdrop:

[tomtom72]

Now that is just fugly Luis! Clean that up and clean the passage. Use throttle body cleaner, do not use carb cleaner. I hate to say this but you may have to dismount the T/B and clean the IAC passages using the spray also.

ONE VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE: inside or behind the three blades is a blackish substance that surrounds each blade's hole, that is called DAG....DO NOT mess with that stuff. Leave it alone as it forms the seal when the blades are closed so that the IAC can do it's job. Do NOT use carb cleaner, only T/Body cleaner. When you wipe out the bores just be gentle around the DAG. I just held my T/B up and sprayed the chit outta of it and let all the dirt run out. I used one of my old microfiber towels to wipe up the interior of the throttle body, very light pressure on the rag. I must have used up at least three cans of cleaner.

On the new IAC, just put it in and connect the electrical connector and the ECM does the rest...or it should anyway. According the FSM the only time you need to do anything to the IAC is if you pull it's connector when the motor is running. Then there is a procedure to follow to make it work correctly.

:cheers:
Tom

[FULLPWR]

Tom... your an ACE :thumbsup:

thanks so much :cheers:

Im going to clean up what i can reach, install the new valve so i can get her home. then hopefully r/r the T/B.

my first air duct form didnt fit to well, trying again

Luis

[FULLPWR]

changed out the ngk's and put in 41-602's

only #4 plug looked like this see pic
all the rest looked like #8 plug see pic

[tomtom72]

I'm a bit puzzled and maybe just a bit concerned....:icon_scra

It's just that I don't really like the look of plug #4. That looks like oil ( or too much anti-seize? ) to me, but I don't think that I know enough to make an absolute call on it. :redface::dontknow:

[FULLPWR]

I'm a bit puzzled and maybe just a bit concerned....:icon_scra

It's just that I don't really like the look of plug #4. That looks like oil ( or too much anti-seize? ) to me, but I don't think that I know enough to make an absolute call on it. :redface::dontknow:

I failed to mention it smelled of gas not so much of oil, one side of the tip looked good but the other side seemed fouled i guess, like it was trying to fire clean. Im confused also because when i chkd the fuel pressure it didnt leak down....when you have injectors cleaned normally at a service dept. how can they clean the sec injectors ? I did run a full tank gas w-bottle of sea foam week ago.

as of this morning:
it really does seem to be running better with the new plugs as far as getting to 6000 rpms it doesnt feel boggy like before.
but.....
still trembles at idle, i can not hear a miss in the tail pipes.
every once in awhile the idle drops off enough to notice the alternator gauge drop, just for a second then it idles ok again.
when i get to a light and stop, it idles around 1500 then slowly trickles down to below 1000 rpms, this morning it did this once "it stayed at 1500 until i goosed it a lil then it went down below 1000 rpms, but only after i goosed it."

It pulls really good to 6000rpms though seems problem is only at idle, its hard for me to tell any miss or tremble when pulling thru the gears.

I have not changed the tps yet nor have i adjusted it from .50 to .54volts.

think its possible since no leak down of fuel pressure, that maybe a dirty injector, maybe primary, not so much as a sec one, because it pulls good past 3500rpms, and no ses light at all?

:confused:
Luis

[tomtom72]

Okay, smells of gas? Hey Luis, you did install new coils, right? I remember something awhile back in another thread with a miss...long & short was one of our senior members with a ton of LT5 wrench time...said that our coils could have one tower fail vs both towers fail. It was very rare, but possible.

If you have one of those spark checkers, the kind that plug into the boot and on to the spark plug, try using that to look at the spark on that cylinder in real time. Then I would transfer it to the other plug in the pair from the same coil and repeat the test. Or just do it the old fashioned way, lay a spare plug out on that wire & see what's up. Sorry, I'm not more definitive. If a plug in my old LT-1 looked like that one, I'd be all over the ignition system first just to rule it out.

The next step I figure is to try to figure out if that primary injector is fubared....maybe after checking the spark intensity, clean that plug and turn off the power key and drive the car and then pull the plugs for a look see? I know, that's a heck of a way to test injectors, sorry I can't think of any other way other than pulling the injector & looking for fouling at the tip? I know that there is a test, injector balance test, in the FSM....but I'm damned if I know how to do it!:redface:

:cheers:
Tom

[FULLPWR]

Okay, smells of gas? Hey Luis, you did install new coils, right? I remember something awhile back in another thread with a miss...long & short was one of our senior members with a ton of LT5 wrench time...said that our coils could have one tower fail vs both towers fail. It was very rare, but possible.

If you have one of those spark checkers, the kind that plug into the boot and on to the spark plug, try using that to look at the spark on that cylinder in real time. Then I would transfer it to the other plug in the pair from the same coil and repeat the test. Or just do it the old fashioned way, lay a spare plug out on that wire & see what's up. Sorry, I'm not more definitive. If a plug in my old LT-1 looked like that one, I'd be all over the ignition system first just to rule it out.

The next step I figure is to try to figure out if that primary injector is fubared....maybe after checking the spark intensity, clean that plug and turn off the power key and drive the car and then pull the plugs for a look see? I know, that's a heck of a way to test injectors, sorry I can't think of any other way other than pulling the injector & looking for fouling at the tip? I know that there is a test, injector balance test, in the FSM....but I'm damned if I know how to do it!:redface:

:cheers:
Tom


yea i put new gm coils and ohm tested the wires too,
I saw that plug checker at auto parts, i will get it and do what you said.
then try the power key,pull plug see if it looks the same or cleaner burn.

maybe dumb question but can a code be recorded and not throw an ses light ? i am under the assumption that if no ses light, then no codes.


Luis

[tomtom72]

Hi Luis,

There are no dumb questions.....unless they're asked by me!:sign10:

It is my understanding about SES lights or codes in general that once a DTC is set the light goes on. However a key cycle in an OBDI car will erase the code if it is not present on the next key cycle and send that former DTC to the CCM as a "H" History DTC....that is called a soft code vs a hard code like when something actually breaks. Usually our cars set soft codes if a system like the FX3 or the ABS doesn't get enough time to do a self test. I used to get soft Cam sensor codes in my car all the time until I used a different starting procedure. Okay enough about stuff that I really don't know....'puters! I stink at 'puters!:o

Okay new coils and the wires Ohmed out okay, but when a wire is actually on a running motor it vibrates and if the carbon core has cracks in it you would never find them if it was laying on the bench with the VOM attached to it. It's kind of like looking for the break in the vacuum cleaner cord. With what you just told me I have a bit of prejudice toward that wire @ #4 or that tower on that coil. Okay that plug could be no good right out of the box also.

The reason I suggested that checker is that it works well for the price, and remember never pull a wire with the motor running on our ignition system! That's bad for the DIS box.

:cheers:
Tom

[jonszr1]

try just switching holes with the plugs and see what happens . you may have a spray pattern thats gone to a stream on that one cylinder

[scottfab]

Scott, did you make any extras, you may want to sell ????

:cheers:
Luis

Sorry, I missed this post. And even more sorry that I did not make any others.
Are you still chasing the blue smoke thing or has you moved to unrelated issues?

[FULLPWR]

Sorry, I missed this post. And even more sorry that I did not make any others.
Are you still chasing the blue smoke thing or has you moved to unrelated issues?


after I put in the new gm coils, ac 41-602 plugs, new actuators, and fixed sec leaks, it stopped smoking, i had a bad coil so two plugs wernt firing and had a t/b ac leak, when it was smoking.
the ngk plug i pulled out and replaced with the ac'sin #4 looked half fouled and half clean.

the other day it smoke a lil after start up but went away.
so i put in a can of sea foam, and have since ran that full tank thru, was chevron, i filled up with shell just to see if it was bad gas.

currently it is trembling at idle and i have now noticed it is studdering when gettin on it, but it does not stop it from getting to 7000rpms. it wants to run like batouthell, just studders getting there.

i put that spark checker on #4 like Tom said and it is firing consistantly and bright.

i dont get it :confused:, no ses lights, no backfiring, if you read my posting i have replaced all the possible culprits, I think Brad may be on to something in regards to the injector stream s. spray, or maybe the RC's 210's are to much for it, idk...i did get 52lbs fuel pressure and no leak down so i dont think they are leaking..
when i bought them from RC i told them i had no mods i was aware of and i wanted what was best for it. Ive read in old post that based on 500rwhp 205cc is suffiecint, i hate that i made need to buy a new set...
and i dont know how to tell if i have a modded prom/chip, i am assuming i dont because im still getting pissed off with that 1-4 shift bs.

i didnt replace the TPS because the one on it chkd .50 and up to WOT it moved smooth up to 4.51 volts, although i have a new acdelco one standby. its hard to chk it holding the needles in the connector but i think i did it ok.

it studders in both engine modes so i couldnt isolate that it was prim or sec. inj. I did install them in 2006 and it hasnt been running on the road, just cranked up to keep the battery charged, so it may be they are clogged or just dirty.
thought i would run another can of sea foam in it or get that injector cleaner contraption that mounts to the fuel rail valve and try to at least clean the primary's that way, as far as the secondary's idk how to clean them without getting sec to come in.

any ideas?????

[USAFPILOT]

First...thanks for letting me take your Z on a drive; I always enjoy driving another Z. This car is a very nice example of a 90 ZR-1 as well, only 30K on the odo.

I did notice the stumble, it happens at about 3000 rpm under a load. I have a feeling a good tune is all it needs. I know it has bigger injectors than stock which could be causing it, and it has exhaust from a later model ZR-1 with the square tips just like my 94(maybe just the mufflers); but it also has different cats. I think it is just the combination of the few different parts. A dyno tune could probably take care of that last 1% to get it running like a dream. But it runs like hell and pulls hard to 7K. I think it felt as quick as my 94. I tell you what though...every time I get in a 90 I dig those tight fitting seats, they really hold you in.

As far as the smoke in startup goes...I think alot of ZR-1s do it...including mine, but you might have a little more.

It is great to meet another one of the Brotherhood...and so close by. We are going to have to hit up some car shows and do some BBQing etc.

If you do take it to Corey or need help installing new exhaust I am in.

I owe you a turn behind the wheel of my 94...just say when.

:cheers:

[tomtom72]

Hi Luis,

Okay we are making progress. The ignition is officially off the list of suspects.

I do believe that Brad, jonszr1, has hit the reason for that #4 plug condition. If that injector has a clogged tip then one could expect that the spray pattern will be affected negatively, which would also account for the 1/2 fouled look of the plug. A bad spray pattern will cause the miss as that cylinder's fuel is not vaporized properly. RC's normally have a tighter spray, more stream like. So it would be consistent that if trouble with the tip came up the spray would loose most of it's vaporization.

I do not know how effective those injector cleaners that plug into the fuel rail work. I have no hands on with that stuff. I would have thought that the seafoam would have been enough? I don't use that stuff either, so no hands on with that either. Once a month I use the chevron cleaner, big bottle, as my "hail mary" play.

The way I see this issue is that trying the cleaner thru the fuel rail is worth a shot...just not to have to pull that injector out. If it don't cure the issue then that injector has to come out. I doubt that there is another reason that fits the symptoms. That would also account for the darkish smoke, too rich a mixture due to bad spray pattern(s). If I had spare injectors, I'd send them to you so you could know for sure. Sorry I don't have any.:o

This is just some random thoughts from my thinking. :rolleyes: Ever since I saw the vids of injectors during operation at FIC Injectors I have this bug up my shorts that the RC's don't have that great of a spray pattern. It's too tight for my taste. The Bosch II's(?) that Jon rebuilds & markets for our LT5's seem to me to be better at atomization. When you watch the vids, the difference is dramatic! Okay, all this is just my uneducated opinion and untrained observations. I might add that I'm not qualified to make such judgments since I know beans about designing injectors.:sign10:

:cheers:
Tom

[scottfab]

i dont get it :confused:, no ses lights, no backfiring, if you read my posting i have replaced all the possible culprits, I think Brad may be on to something in regards to the injector stream s. spray, or maybe the RC's 210's are to much for it, idk..
(some deleted)
any ideas?????

I think too that the next stop has to be the injector check out but.....
don't rule out wire failure. I once saw a wire failure that checked out ok resistance wise but failed under load. (not a vett but same difference).
FWIW here is what an injecor spray pattern looks like for a slightly plugged OE injector at 9in from target. Note the 5 of the 6 streams are ok. This injector did not cause a problem (unlike other plugged ones) but I replaced them all with RCs in 99.
http://home.comcast.net/%7Escottfab/pictures/Mdsc0013.bmp

[tomtom72]

Okay, maybe I should shut up, but just humor me Luis...:p

Just take the #2 plug and #4 plug and switch holes with them, after cleaning the crud off of the #4 plug of course. This way I think we find out for sure if it the #4 hole & all the stuff that goes to it that is the issue. Or we find out that the plug that is / was in the #4 hole is no good out of the box. What do you think?:o

I know, I know, I should have stopped while I was not ahead!:sign10:
I just can't figure another way, short of doing a plenum pull, again!, to make sure it's not just a bad plug or if the wire or coil or injector in the #4 hole needs to be examined. It's easier to switch spark plugs, than pull the plenum?:icon_scra

:cheers:
Tom

[FULLPWR]

USAFPILOT
SUPER Thank You for coming over and so quick too, I very much appreciate the compliments on the Z :thumbsup:
Seeing your Z pull up and being able to gawk at it :jawdrop: was the first time ever for me to be next to another Zr1 and yours is Beeeaauuutifullll .
Just hearing the sound of your LT5 freaked me out :mrgreen:
I learned so much from you in just a few hours, its amazing.
I thank you sincerely. I need to get a plan together on the exhaust, get it done then call Corey. I will call you on the scheduling for the "Road Trip"
Im going to work on the stuff Tom, Brad Scottfab are pointing out before the exhuast & Corey's though. :cheers:

Tom
Will do....like you & Brad said on the plug swap and see what gives.....
that fuel inj cleaner system is a little pricy, i think i'll wait to see these plugs, and put the money towards what may come up with the injectors.
I really appreciate all your effort trying to help me figure it out.

SCOTTFAB
as soon as i get the results of the plug swap, I may be pulling the plennum to do a wire swap like you suggest...and maybe :icon_scra i should consider putting all new wires in, since it looks like i may be pulling the plenum anyway to get that #4 injector.

....also you think maybe should i go ahead and get all the injectors tested, to make sure ??
i have read in the forum about flowtesting but have no idea on costs or who to go to, I'll do some forum searching tonite, or maybe send them back to RC......

I will post back with the plug results, shes too hot to pul plugs right now.

BIG Thanks to all of you for the guidance, ideas,and pointers !!!!!!!!
I sure am glad all of you are out there!!

:cheers:

Luis

[FULLPWR]

pulled #4 & #7 plugs
#4 same (half clean half fouled)
#7 clean

put new in #4 ran it
took it out - same as before (half clean half fouled)


put in new TPS
runs the same.....but......idles higher

[todesengel]

as far as the tps, and keep in mind I am still ignorant about these engines, did you set it to deflection?

I am not sure if you can do it the same way, but I always set my tps by timing with the 2j, it works much better setting it that way.pulled #4 & #7 plugs
#4 same (half clean half fouled)
#7 clean

put new in #4 ran it
took it out - same as before (half clean half fouled)


put in new TPS
runs the same.....but......idles higher

[FULLPWR]

as far as the tps, and keep in mind I am still ignorant about these engines, did you set it to deflection?

I am not sure if you can do it the same way, but I always set my tps by timing with the 2j, it works much better setting it that way.


I did check the voltage KeyOnEngineOff & Warm to make sure it was .54v.

but....???...how exactly did you do yours with the timing?????

I'll try that too!!

thanks!

[todesengel]

I did check the voltage KeyOnEngineOff & Warm to make sure it was .54v.

but....???...how exactly did you do yours with the timing?????

I'll try that too!!

thanks!

I would wait for one of the more knowledgable people on the forums to weigh in before you try it.

On the 2j I simply put the light on it, loosen the tps and adjust it until I reach the proper timing via the light, then clamp it back down.

[jonszr1]

ok , do you have a compression tester . if so you might run a comp test on her . but to me either you have a coil tower going out (even though they maybe new it does happen ) a partially plugged injector or a weak wire . corey can clean your injectors .i believe his price is better than rc. have you tried giving him a call and asking his thoughts ? what you have done so far is to at least gotten it down to be a prob with the 4 hole . which is a good thing . now to finding what it is .

[tomtom72]

I did check the voltage KeyOnEngineOff & Warm to make sure it was .54v.

but....???...how exactly did you do yours with the timing?????

I'll try that too!!

thanks!

Hi Luis, sorry for the lag in my responses!:o

Our timing is set electronically via the ignition programing and is not something that you adjust. Okay so we are down to just #4 hole having a 1/2 fouled plug? To set my TPS I always use either my VOM or my scanner in a KOEO situation.

I agree with Brad, either do a compression and leak down test on just that hole. Or pull that injector to see the condition of the tip, or maybe that tower on that brand new coil is no good.....very rare but it happens.

IMHO, since I don't have the tools to do a leak down or compression test, I would pull the plenum to check that injector and pull out that coil and substitute in a good one from my spare parts inventory, button it up and run it and then look at the plug. Think of it this way, once pulled you could easily see if the injector tip is screwed up with crud, or you can do a injector flow test by cranking the starter ( okay you need another person for that. ). If the stream is bad, I would think that you should see it, I hope.

:cheers:
Tom

[FULLPWR]

Brad / Tom / Todd :wave:

I dont have a comp tester, I really need to do what yall are recommending. but.....

My current dilema is:
(somewhere in this thread you guys may remember)
I still have original 90z cat/manifolds: I had the driver side empty cat cut off and a transition collar welded on to the manifold to attach a new hi-flow cat....the pass side cat (also empty) I did not cut off, I had to leave it on and had a new cat welded in just after it. all in the name of getting her legal as my last sticker was 2007.
In considering this jury rig....I feel I need to do one of the following:

-have my buddy muffler shop cut off the pass side orig. empty cat the same as he did the driv side and add the trans collar, put the new cat back on then add the x pipe behind the cats and put in the flowmaster mufflers i wanted. cheesy i know

-take it to Corey and have him do his magic on the injector issues/cly#4 and tune. ... but I realy feel that my exhaust sytem is clogged up maybe with all the orig. cat reminants, so having Corey fix and tune with exhaust issues may not be the best steps.

-take it to Corey and have him put his headers on and maybe he could install the x-pipe and add mufflers to it, then he could do his thing with my inj/#4 cyl issues and tune.

I have never talked to Corey, as i wanted to get my head straight with what route to take with my issues.

I am leaning towards leaving the orig manifolds and choping off the pass cat and adding the flowmasters myself. cash-ola is the main reason, then taking it to Corey, but my conscious is saying NO to cheesi-ness.

:confused:

[jonszr1]

you will find corey to be one of the easiest guys to talk to with . he is all about helping us in any way he can .one has to do what one can with the cash avail. i understand your delima . get her done so you can drive her then save for what you really want .again if there is anyway i can help just pm me . i will call corey and tell him you might call .

[FULLPWR]

you will find corey to be one of the easiest guys to talk to with . he is all about helping us in any way he can .one has to do what one can with the cash avail. i understand your delima . get her done so you can drive her then save for what you really want .again if there is anyway i can help just pm me . i will call corey and tell him you might call .


thanks Brad !!

[tomtom72]

Luis,

This is just MHO. The empty cats are not related to this issue. Simply put as long as the O2 sensors work properly, and the MAP, IAT, et al then the fueling programing on the EPROM is followed.

I'm thinking that that injector is possibly the trouble maker. That coil tower is a close second suspect. Okay, so I'm not very advanced in LT5's, but I would pull the plenum to swap an old good coil in ( I have extra coils I could send you ) and at the same time I'd pull the injector rail to get at the injectors in the #4 hole. You never know what you might see. If the tip is fouled then you found the answer.

:o Actually because of the type of luck I have with stuff. I'd be pulling all 16 to eye them up and I'd try to get them to flow fuel with the rails off the I/H's so I could see the fuel spray pattern. Trouble is I do not know how to get them to flow fuel while the injectors are out of their holes!:redface:. I'll go look in the FSM and report back what I find on that subject.:o

:cheers:
Tom

[FULLPWR]

Went over to Ricks last nite to help him with his clutch changeout, crazy nite we were working on his then drove mine to parts house and on way back super loud squealing noise and burnt rubber smell from under hood, got it to his house and popped the hood, the belt tensioner pulley seemed to be dragging, so (long story try to shorten) had my wife find my new idler pulley in garage and bring it out to us. put it on cranked it up and still similiar almost roaring sound, best we can tell its the alternator bearing...cant figure it would be anything else, doesnt sound internal at all. Z spent the nite didnt want to chance driving it 50 miles at 11:00pm . oh well gotta get a atlernator for tonite......we're supposede to be fixin his not mine....dam sorry Rick.. lol

really wanted to post this:
when rick drove it last nite before the alt/idler issue, I watch to see if the ses light came on when we got up to 7000rpm , and no light...
rick agrees its not running fullpwr its like 3/4 fullpwr if thats possible. so .....my pea brain is thunking that, if No ses lights and seems to be running 3/4 power....do you think that maybe the secondary Fuel pump is not working or maybe partially working so as not to provide ample fuel to secondary injectors?????

I know thats not the cure for my start-up smoking, and or the #4 fouling...but could it maybe the culprit for the partial power and no ecm fault indications?????

i just went searching and found something on...egine running...pull primary pump fuse to ck sec pump operation, that should tell me right???

but ,..uh....now since i will have to pull penum anyway to change atlernator, guess good time to ck injectors condition and then after do the fuel pump test :confused:....

Luis

[QB93Z]

Try connecting a fuel pressure gauge to the passenger side fuel rail. Use a gauge with a long hose so you can tape it to the windshield to view it while driving. At full throttle, the pressure should not drop.

Jim

[FULLPWR]

Try connecting a fuel pressure gauge to the passenger side fuel rail. Use a gauge with a long hose so you can tape it to the windshield to view it while driving. At full throttle, the pressure should not drop.

Jim

cool i have the pressure gauge but dont have a long hose( well i mean long guage hose :mrgreen::jawdrop: you think parts house would have it???

thanks Jim:cheers:

[scottfab]

i just went searching and found something on...egine running...pull primary pump fuse to ck sec pump operation, that should tell me right???


Checking fuel is not a bad place to start but.......
If you don't have full power from the beginning of acceleration then it's more likely to be a stuck secondary actuator. (one side or the other or both). I say that because even if the second fuel pump is dead you'll have enough fuel pressure initially to pull full power for a short time then it'll back off.
If the actuator or actuators are not opening up all the way then there
is you problem. Since you'll be under there use some vacuum source directly on the actuators to see it they pull ok. Does the aux air pump run continuously? Is that line from it up to the plenum disconnected?

This may be obvious but I'll state it.
Do make sure you feel some sort of difference when you accelerate say in second and turn the key on. The keys switch on a 90 can become intermittent. The Full Power light should stay on all the time.

[tomtom72]

Jeeze louise, you ain't having any good luck lately Luis!:(

Okay, here is my take on electric fuel pumps.....I should add that my take is bases upon no actual concrete knowledge at all...:o

My pumps checked out okay using the FSM test KOEO. They were in the middle to slightly upper end of the allowable ranges, not to the top limits, but close. I figured, "cool, no need for pumps!"

Then I get in on a buy for the whole assembly from the partsladie. I throw the stuff in my stock pile and wait for the day they quit. Then a wild hair gets up my rear, 20 yr old pumps!?! I have the parts, lets do this. I do it and I also pay attention to another brother's bad experience with the actual pumps that are mounted in the thing. His failed in short order so I do his idea & get Bosch pumps. Now I'm going to really, really do this! Boy oh boy! I swap the whole assembly and drive the car, and guess what? It runs better. Stronger at WOT, stronger in 6th on the highway in passing, just plain old stronger....like it was starving for fuel on the secondaries all the time I had the car.:confused:

My take on the subject: 20 yr old electric pumps may not have stopped working, but they sure as heck were not working at 100%.

That still leaves #4 hole's issue, which I think is the injector. You checked for spark on that hole by laying the wire with a plug in it to watch the spark, right? I mean we did establish that the spark to #4 was okay to go, right? Then it's got to be the injector, barring any mechanical issue like valves or rings....which it don't seem too likely to be.

:cheers
Tom

Bosch pump P/N: 69225 Not our pump by application. If I find the thread I'll post a link here so you can read up on the issue. It's simple to make them fit in the holders of our tank assembly though.

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9778&highlight=Bosch+fuel+pumps

[FULLPWR]

Checking fuel is not a bad place to start but.......
If you don't have full power from the beginning of acceleration then it's more likely to be a stuck secondary actuator. (one side or the other or both). I say that because even if the second fuel pump is dead you'll have enough fuel pressure initially to pull full power for a short time then it'll back off.
If the actuator or actuators are not opening up all the way then there
is you problem. Since you'll be under there use some vacuum source directly on the actuators to see it they pull ok. Does the aux air pump run continuously? Is that line from it up to the plenum disconnected?
the aux air pump runs few seconds shuts down and holds good. the line is connected and after it runs and stops it holds then i pulled it out and immediately the hose end going under plenum releases the vac. when i plug back the pump runs and stops holds forever !!

This may be obvious but I'll state it.
Do make sure you feel some sort of difference when you accelerate say in second and turn the key on. The keys switch on a 90 can become intermittent. The Full Power light should stay on all the time.

yes there is a difference thats whats so weird..... and I just was under the plenum to replace the actuators and coils and did all the vac tests.
doesnt mean something changed though gonna find out tonite.

Luis

[FULLPWR]

Jeeze louise, you ain't having any good luck lately Luis!

Okay, here is my take on electric fuel pumps.....I should add that my take is bases upon no actual concrete knowledge at all...

My pumps checked out okay using the FSM test KOEO. They were in the middle to slightly upper end of the allowable ranges, not to the top limits, but close. I figured, "cool, no need for pumps!"

Then I get in on a buy for the whole assembly from the partsladie. I throw the stuff in my stock pile and wait for the day they quit. Then a wild hair gets up my rear, 20 yr old pumps!?! I have the parts, lets do this. I do it and I also pay attention to another brother's bad experience with the actual pumps that are mounted in the thing. His failed in short order so I do his idea & get Bosch pumps. Now I'm going to really, really do this! Boy oh boy! I swap the whole assembly and drive the car, and guess what? It runs better. Stronger at WOT, stronger in 6th on the highway in passing, just plain old stronger....like it was starving for fuel on the secondaries all the time I had the car.:confused:

My take on the subject: 20 yr old electric pumps may not have stopped working, but they sure as heck were not working at 100%.

That still leaves #4 hole's issue, which I think is the injector. You checked for spark on that hole by laying the wire with a plug in it to watch the spark, right? I mean we did establish that the spark to #4 was okay to go, right? Then it's got to be the injector, barring any mechanical issue like valves or rings....which it don't seem too likely to be.

:cheers
Tom

Bosch pump P/N: 69225 Not our pump by application. If I find the thread I'll post a link here so you can read up on the issue. It's simple to make them fit in the holders of our tank assembly though.

http://www.zr1.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9778&highlight=Bosch+fuel+pumps


Tom I bought the same assembly from partsladi last year and I too put it up in garage LOL Very much apprieciate this info you just posted, I will do the same to mine. maybe not just yet though... lol

Yes i bought that plug wire tester thing you told me about and did it with that in fact did them all too. and they were brightly lit and consistant.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

.... Rick just hooked me up with a Alternator for tonite.:dancing
will post what we find under the plenum tonite.

......going four directions at once...... whooohoooo !!!

[tomtom72]

Tom I bought the same assembly from partsladi last year and I too put it up in garage LOL Very much apprieciate this info you just posted, I will do the same to mine. maybe not just yet though... lol

Yes i bought that plug wire tester thing you told me about and did it with that in fact did them all too. and they were brightly lit and consistant.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

.... Rick just hooked me up with a starter for tonite.:dancing
will post what we find under the plenum tonite.

......going four directions at once...... whooohoooo !!!

:thumbsup: Good luck tonight Luis!


Tom

[rhipsher]

Yes I drove Luises car yesterday evening and somethings definetly wrong. I could smell the exhaust fumes when he pulled up. It feels like the power key is off and it should have far more get up and go than it does. So I showed Luis how to pull codes with a paper clip (poor mans OBD2 meter). And the only codes that set were 72 and 74 which is electrical. His car only has 30k miles on it. I told Luis it's to bad mine isn't put back together or I'd show you how it should run. When you punch it at 4000 rpm's it should yank your head off. But we will get it figured out. I'm in no hurry to get mine put back together so we will get his running right first.

[USAFPILOT]

think we got it now huh!

[FULLPWR]

First and most important !!

Special :thumbsup: to Rick & Ryan for changing directions in a moments notice, when we were supposed to be working on Rick's Z, my Z got jealous and locked up the belt tensioner bearing then slapped the tensioner pulley up tensioner against my alternator pulley fan blades, which bent them so bad in one spot they were chewing the edge of the serpt. belt, causing a screeching bad atlernator bearing sound.
Pulled the plenum, re-tested all the secondary system, Rick suggested changing out the sec port solenoid just for grins, so did it.
Changed the tensioner with new, Rick bent back the alt. fan blades and then no more screeching noise. took it for a drive and that solenoide made a big difference. (dont know why it didnt throw a code though) maybe the ecltrical solenoid was working but just not mechanically opening to let vaccum thru !?!?.....but.......on way home battery light started flashing and losing headlights, dash lights ect...didnt seem to run too good needed some current i guess.
The alternator was hit so hard it messed something up inside.
Next day Rick came over to my house for another plenum pull and alternator change out..... Got er Done !!!!
Now it very different maybe not perfect but definitely pulls a whole lot better!!!!


To Summarize:

I wanted the conclusion of this thread to be a answer to and fix of the "Blue Smoke", but I have really never figured out the Blue Smoke entirely. I think it was a combination of things. when it was the worst is when i had a bad coil and semi-clogged pvc's,vac leak, and maybe bad gas.
Starting to believe it wasnt a TRUE BLUE smoke more of a rich fuel issue like Tom said.

As of Today:

She runs great, puffs a lil smoke on start-up, no ses lights, all seems fine.

To Do:

We all still think Tom is right about getting the Injectors ck'd out.
So now i can make a decision on the exhaust then get her to Corey's for injector stuff and tuning.


But.............:jawdrop: last nite on way home I hear from the rear Tick..Tick...Tick... squeak.....squeak.... squeak.....half shaft U-Joints want some dam attention now.......:censored: :sign10:

Big Sincere Thanks to all that have posted and gave me so much helpful info and allowed me to bounce off my crazy questions and ideas.
Rick and Ryan for proving that the brotherhood of the Z is real and alive.

:worship:

Luis

[tomtom72]

:-D I just love happy endings....well except for the u-joints! I'm sure that the Texas ZR-1 owners organization will get 'er dunn!:thumbsup:


:o I forgot this fact and it could be important. Luis, you have RC's right? I just remembered that they have a different tip design than the ACDelco/OEM-GM injectors...they are not self-cleaning. Slime in the gas can clog the RC's because they don't use the disc design like the OE injector tips. I use that Techron / Techrolene cleaner every other month on my car. Sorry I plead senility on forgetting this!

:cheers:
Tom

[FULLPWR]

:-D I just love happy endings....well except for the u-joints! I'm sure that the Texas ZR-1 owners organization will get 'er dunn!:thumbsup:


:o I forgot this fact and it could be important. Luis, you have RC's right? I just remembered that they have a different tip design than the ACDelco/OEM-GM injectors...they are not self-cleaning. Slime in the gas can clog the RC's because they don't use the disc design like the OE injector tips. I use that Techron / Techrolene cleaner every other month on my car. Sorry I plead senility on forgetting this!

:cheers:
Tom

Hey Tom ! yep RC 210's
nother dum question:
Techrolene ?? is that the stuff you select at some pumps? or do you mean chevron thats suppose to be good gas??? or a bottle of some sort ??????

Tom, You are genuine and a sincerely educative individual !!!!!
I am glad you are part of this forum. I hope one day to be able to contribute just an ounce of what you do.

:cheers:
Luis

[tomtom72]

Hey Luis, I'm blushing!:redface: Besides, I missed telling you to test the secondary solenoid, didn't I?

You are welcome, man. I try to help if I am able to do so because I was helped. Pay it forward, right? Our Brotherhood is tight!:mrgreen:

Oh, the Techrolene stuff or Techron is a product of Chevron as an additive in their gas. They bottle it as fuel treatment and I buy it at Costco in four packs...because it's cheaper than at the parts store. I do remember Gordon saying that it is okay to use that as a fuel additive for mild cleaning and as a preventative measure. I can't find any Chervron stations where I live so I use BP or Shell 93 in my car and add the Techron stuff just to be sure. I'm a belt & suspenders type!:o

Now get'er dunn!

:cheers:
Tom

[USAFPILOT]

dang yall had to do it again...man I thought that new alternator was the way to go. Ohh well. Too bad I missed the fun, but a few more Taliban have been put 6 feet under...if they do that.

I should getmy wheels mounted this week. We should all go for a drive or something.

[FULLPWR]

dang yall had to do it again...man I thought that new alternator was the way to go. Ohh well. Too bad I missed the fun, but a few more Taliban have been put 6 feet under...if they do that.

I should getmy wheels mounted this week. We should all go for a drive or something.


Im ready :iroc: