Camshafts almost done

[tpepmeie]

Thought I would go with the full 360 degree duration on my new cams :razz:

http://www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/2374lt5_full_turn-med.jpg

just kidding. Here are the semi finished lobes. off to the heat treat furnace now...

http://www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/2374lt5_semi_and_stock-med.jpg

[ZZZZZR1]

Wow!


Looks great!!!!!!!!!! :cool:

[Jagdpanzer]

Looking good!
Which shop is doing the work?

[Polo-1]

those look like some mighty BIG lobes:notworthy

Take full advantage of those heads, it's going to be one BAD 427

[Locobob]

So what's the full story on the cams? :happy1:

[Pete]

Specs?????
:)

Pete

[Polo-1]

I keep looking at the lope profile, compared to the stock set. Those are some nasty cams for a flat tappet.

[tpepmeie]

I keep looking at the lope profile, compared to the stock set. Those are some nasty cams for a flat tappet.

Those are just semi-finished lobes. Haven't been final ground yet...they are way oversize. Heat treat first, then grind all the lobes and journals to final dimensions.

[Polo-1]

that's better..... I was thinking you were going to try a .750 + lift:wink:

[Locobob]

Details Todd, details!!!

[Locobob]

that's better..... I was thinking you were going to try a .750 + lift:wink:

And if he was then you'd have to go for .800 lift wouldn't you Kev :mrgreen:

[Polo-1]

I think my bank roll has hit it's limit:( on the LT5

[tpepmeie]

Details Todd, details!!!

Tool steel billets. With proper hardness. Specs to complement my heads and engine combination... Those aren't finalized yet. If you saw the size of my valve reliefs, I expect lift will be "up there". Designing for peak power at 7k, with a useful powerband 4000-7200.

Will advise of the company doing them once we know they will work, and hold up. Lots of horror stories out there about billets.

Todd

[Jagdpanzer]

Todd
I'm sure all will go well with cams
With the thoroughness you've approached this project the results should be outstanding and well worth the effort. I know many like myself have been following your project with great interest and really appreciate your willingness to share your experiences along the way with us.

Phil

[flyin ryan]

Lots of horror stories out there about billets.

ToddReally....Why? Not heat treated properly?

[tpepmeie]

Cam guy called today. Heat treat is done. He wants to know what the factory specification is for the cam bearing journals. He can copy the oe cams, but would prefer to put it exactly in the middle of the tolerance. I know this dimension stackup was the root cause of the cam seizures early on. Anybody know the tolerance? Perhaps Graham?

Todd

[Jagdpanzer]

Not sure that it matters, the heads you will be using on this build are the later Dunns, right?
My 94 FSM specifies the cam journals at 28.96 - 28.98 mm so 28.97 +/- 0.01 mm should work.
I imagine the clearances are fairly tight in the cam cover/cylinder head cam shaft bores.

[Locobob]

Lots of horror stories out there about billets.

Todd

Yes there are, which is why I'd like to hear the details of your venture. If things go well it could open the doors to a new round of modding. Kudos for taking the lead in this. :cheers:

[flyin ryan]

Cam guy called today. Heat treat is done. He wants to know what the factory specification is for the cam bearing journals. He can copy the oe cams, but would prefer to put it exactly in the middle of the tolerance. I know this dimension stackup was the root cause of the cam seizures early on. Anybody know the tolerance? Perhaps Graham?

ToddDo yourself a favour Todd & send him your stock cams to measure. Not un-common for all shops/machinists to measure things a hair this way or that way...

[tpepmeie]

Here's a few pictures of the setup piece. Sent it to me so that I can check clearances and start grinding the head / cam cover to clear this big lobe. This setup piece is just 4340 steel billet, while the finished pieces will be high grade tool steel. The challenge right now is finding the right springs. Problem is finding a light enough spring with the right installed height, able to take this much lift. We don't need much spring pressure for these, only about 70 lbs on the seat, and 140 or so at full lift.

http://www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/2374IMG_2145s-med.jpg

http://www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/2374IMG_2148s-med.jpg

http://www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/2374IMG_2146s-med.jpg

http://www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/2374IMG_2150s-med.jpg

[Polo-1]

my, what big lobes you have :wink:

[tpepmeie]

First design was:
Intake 254@.050 .500" lift
exhaust 240@.050 .465" lift

Still tweaking the final specs... chasing an additional .020" intake lift :jawdrop:, and trying to find the right valve springs.

Todd

[Pete]

First design was:
Intake 254@.050 .500" lift
exhaust 240@.050 .465" lift

Still tweaking the final specs... chasing an additional .020" intake lift :jawdrop:, and trying to find the right valve springs.

Todd


Todd, the extra lift really worth the hassle?
Does it pick up that much more CFM and finding a spring.

Pete

[tpepmeie]

Todd, the extra lift really worth the hassle?
Does it pick up that much more CFM and finding a spring.

Pete

Pete, we'll see. My heads don't let up until past .550 lift, so I'd like to capture as much of that flow as we can. They gain another 20+ cfm from .450 to .550. I only have 39.5mm intake valves, versus 40mm for the LPE cars, so the extra lift helps with the flow area. Target = 700 hp. (720? if I'm lucky). This is the "just because" motor... I'm trying stuff just because nobody else has...;)

[Pete]

Pete, we'll see. My heads don't let up until past .550 lift, so I'd like to capture as much of that flow as we can. They gain another 20+ cfm from .450 to .550. I only have 39.5mm intake valves, versus 40mm for the LPE cars, so the extra lift helps with the flow area. Target = 700 hp. (720? if I'm lucky). This is the "just because" motor... I'm trying stuff just because nobody else has...;)



:thumbsup:
Todd,all the work and effort you put into this motor i hope you see 750hp

20 CFM is plenty and worth it,at least for me it would be.

Pete

[flyin ryan]

Try to get .020" more lift anyways, past where they turn the corner, if you can.

[tpepmeie]

Here's the headflow curve up to .550 lift. about 10 cfm from .450 to .500, another +10 to .550, then it flattens out, only 2 cfm gain to .600. I have to double check the retainer to valve guide clearance to see if we can go above .500.


http://www.photohost.org/gallery/data/500/2374headflow-med.jpg

[XfireZ51]

First design was:
Intake 254@.050 .500" lift
exhaust 240@.050 .465" lift

Still tweaking the final specs... chasing an additional .020" intake lift :jawdrop:, and trying to find the right valve springs.

Todd

Todd,

Have you finalized an LSA you'll be installing cams at?

[tpepmeie]

I think I've decided to stop at .500" lift. Spent the better part of the afternoon clearancing one head for the big lobes. Not sure I want to do it all again, and I can see where even more interference lurks if I go to 520. If I had a nice grinder like some of you guys it would go loads faster... but I was stuck using a dremel :o. Wore out three bits to get through all that aluminum, and I only did one head.

[XfireZ51]

How will that affect your final cam profile if not looking for that last 10cfm?

[tpepmeie]

How will that affect your final cam profile if not looking for that last 10cfm?

It'll be .020 less lift :razz:

Maybe 5-10 hp at most. He might be able to use a little more max valve acceleration to get more lift sooner with the .500 max lift. Although from the seat to .050 lift, it is already pretty aggressive at only 40 degrees. It's an endurance motor, though. Can't be eating up springs every 500 miles.

[rkreigh]

great stuff

congrats todd, I saw your heads at the local shop early in the project and those cams look great.

cam development takes so much hard work and I love the idea of using the ford mod motor as a "similar" model, but head flow, velocity, displacement, compression, chamber, all those cool variables and lobe shape lift duration separation all take lots of research and knowing how to maximize "area under the curve" and streetablility concerns

I'll trade 5-10 hp any day for a car that's a pleasure to drive you'll be making so much that hooking it up is the hard part, not worry about 600 or 650, it will be "ample" either way

look at the article on heads in the chevy perform magazine, the are doing a really cool series about head flow "quality, velocity, ect.." which is the basis for cam selection along with gearing, car weight and all those other factors that make selecting the perfect cam such a chore

I have the stg III on my 390, which are pretty "streetable" and I think are only at about 234 deg 435 or somthing like that lift

I know Bill played around with huge cams on his 415s, but they were a bit too rowdy and only gained just a bit way up top, the trade off wasn't a good one as the engines got very "peaky"

graham would be very good to talk to on this subject, seek ye him at BG:mrgreen:

[Locobob]

graham would be very good to talk to on this subject, seek ye him at BG:mrgreen:

That sounds like an excellent idea. I'm still interested in doing something with my cams - hopefully Todds project will lead to renewed interest in new production of performance camshafts.

[tpepmeie]

Update... finding springs for the monster cams has been almost impossible. Most of the springs I had identified were from imports (Honda/Audi/VW), and thus had a very high natural frequency, suitable to 9000+ rpms. The guy doing my cams is a bit of a professor when it comes to dynamic valvetrain design, so he was not happy with such heavy springs and associated wire stress.

We're leaning toward a single spring setup, with a rate similar to the stock spring, but able to handle the bigger lift. His lobe design is spring friendly, such that we dont need extremely high pressures. And the rev limiter will be set at 7500, so a low frequency environment.

The downside... looks like custom titanium retainers will be needed. I was hoping to use some off-the-shelf ti retainers, but the springs we picked don't match anything exactly. 7mm valve stems add to the problem.

By the time this thing is done, I could write a book about what works/fits and what doesn't. The parts list is definitely unlike any other LT5 out there, that's for sure.

BTW... we're doing the bigger intake lift. :mrgreen:

Todd

[A26B]

........By the time this thing is done, I could write a book about what works/fits and what doesn't..........Todd

Please Do!!:thumbsup:

[XfireZ51]

Update... finding springs for the monster cams has been almost impossible. Most of the springs I had identified were from imports (Honda/Audi/VW), and thus had a very high natural frequency, suitable to 9000+ rpms. The guy doing my cams is a bit of a professor when it comes to dynamic valvetrain design, so he was not happy with such heavy springs and associated wire stress.

We're leaning toward a single spring setup, with a rate similar to the stock spring, but able to handle the bigger lift. His lobe design is spring friendly, such that we dont need extremely high pressures. And the rev limiter will be set at 7500, so a low frequency environment.

The downside... looks like custom titanium retainers will be needed. I was hoping to use some off-the-shelf ti retainers, but the springs we picked don't match anything exactly. 7mm valve stems add to the problem.

By the time this thing is done, I could write a book about what works/fits and what doesn't. The parts list is definitely unlike any other LT5 out there, that's for sure.

BTW... we're doing the bigger intake lift. :mrgreen:

Todd


"To go beyond where no man has gone before"! :worship:

[FU]

Do it Todd ...........Be da Terminator !:thumbsup::thumbsup:

http://rogerhollander.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/arnold-schwarzenegger-the-terminator_thumb.jpg

[tpepmeie]

Cams are being ground to final dimensions early this week. What a sweet design... requiring very little spring force to control. With only 60 lbs on the seat, and 170 lbs open, my valves remained in control to 8600 rpm! Here's what he had to say about the stock cams.

The stock cams are over-sprung because they have really bad cam designs (high jerk and bad harmonics) so they need a lot more spring force to try to control that.
The same can be said of the usual aftermarket cams. My lobes have less than half (!) the acceleration peaks compare to the old ".470" Jeal cams, yet more than 6.5% higher opening velocity.

These are more than 7% bigger lobe area than the Jeals, and around 15% bigger than Stage II cams. Don't know what Stage III's typically measure, but probably somewhere in between.

Now have to wait 6 weeks for the custom retainers. :(

Todd

[wdo-mkr]

Now have to wait 6 weeks for the custom retainers. :(

Todd

Your welcome. ;) Did you order valves too?

[tpepmeie]

Your welcome. ;) Did you order valves too?

?????:confused:

[Sgreg]

?????:confused:

Could you please tell us who your grinder is ????

[Tyler Townsley]

You probably have your valves by now but was any thought given to using some cut down NASCAR valves. They have gotten pretty slick about valve design and have used items for sale at real reasonable prices. Rob Dewile has put togeather a couple of sb2 motors with used NASCAR stuff and could give recommendations on who has it and how to get it. I think one of the motors he has cost him about 5k-7k using heads that probably cost the NASCAR team 25k plus. Fastlane was at 800-875 hp on the 431 motor not sure on his cam designs.

I lenghtened the prime pulse time on the p-type start cycle and it seems to have solved the start problem.

You coming to the gathering?

Tyler

[tpepmeie]

You coming to the gathering?

Tyler

Nope. won't make it this year. First time in awhile I won't be there. Glad to hear quennie is getting well.

todd

[tpepmeie]

You probably have your valves by now but was any thought given to using some cut down NASCAR valves.

My valves and bronze guides are from SI Valves... 39.5mm OD intakes, 7mm stems, stainless steel.
Springs are now Eibach, for a Porsche application
Retainers are custom Xceldyne, locks are std Xceldyne top locks (Paul, I am aware this is what Corey's done for yours, too. They make good stuff :icon_thum)
Cam followers are INA lightweight hydraulic buckets.

Todd

[Sgreg]

Could you please tell us who your grinder is ????

I just got my pretty Stage One cams back and I ain't telling anyone who my grinder was :mrgreen: Na Na Na Na Na Na!!!!!!!!

[Pete]

Greg,the issue with telling is there is no loyalty anymore.

What i'm saying is if someone paid for a master grind the company will sell it to whoever.
If someone put out money for the master grind and more money and time for testing is it fair for the guy who put out the money/time.

If the company was smart they would not charge for the master grind this way there name would be posted all over and could've made more money in quantity sales instead they get a master grind charge and that's it.

If somebody cuts me a check for the master grinds i will tell you and then you post the info since you paid for it.:)

A little story, i know who cuts cams for SGC i decided to call and ask them to cut me a set of exhaust Stage I's he told me i had to call SGC since they paid for the master,i could not believe my ears and what i was hearing i finally found one person that was in business with integrity and loyal to his costumers.
WOW:jawdrop:
I wish they were more like him.

I called SGC no reply i guess i will have to pay for master grind for my Stage I's unless somebody sells me there Stage I exhaust cams Greg?? :)

Pete

[Sgreg]

Pete, thanks for the explaination. Didn't mean to be an a-hole about the secrecy surrounding various cam grinds. It is a business. I for one have no interest in doing cam design but I do understand protecting cam designs for different applications. They are at the heart of a good result. As I understand it, almost everyone that does cam design and testing has a cam grinder they trust. I was more interested to know who the pros ( yourself included ) use to grind cams than to know design info. I presume you send your designs out for grinding. I say that because it takes a bunch of machine equipment to be in that business and most tuners I know don't want their money tied up in equipment that would get limited use. Cams and cam design have always been a bit of an enigma wrapped up in a blanket !!!!!! We less gifted techies know when they work and when they don't by the neck snap factor !! :cheers:

[phrogs]

I can't believe they wouldn't cut you a set I guess they don't like money






A little story, i know who cuts cams for SGC i decided to call and ask them to cut me a set of exhaust Stage I's he told me i had to call SGC since they paid for the master,i could not believe my ears and what i was hearing i finally found one person that was in business with integrity and loyal to his costumers.
WOW:jawdrop:
I wish they were more like him.

I called SGC no reply i guess i will have to pay for master grind for my Stage I's unless somebody sells me there Stage I exhaust cams Greg?? :)

Pete

[tpepmeie]

Finally finished. Almost too pretty to run...

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_2283sm.jpg

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_2285small.jpg

Grinding the heads to clear is no fun, though!

Todd

[Pete]

Finally finished. Almost too pretty to run...

Grinding the heads to clear is no fun, though!

Todd


Todd,Damn i totally forgot about that.
I could've told you how to do it without having to clearance/grind the head.

Todd you have some big lobes :)

Missed you at BG this year.
Missed out on a great party.:thumbsup:
It made Rock Stars look like nuns.

Pete

[tpepmeie]

Todd,Damn i totally forgot about that.
I could've told you how to do it without having to clearance/grind the head. Pete

I don't know how that is possible without resorting to a reduced base circle. There is only so much room in the head casting around the lifter bores. With >.500 lift, I had to remove a lot of material.

Todd

[Pete]

I don't know how that is possible without resorting to a reduced base circle. There is only so much room in the head casting around the lifter bores. With >.500 lift, I had to remove a lot of material.

Todd

Head doesn't know if cam has small base circle and probably doesn't care :)

Todd, Is there a reason you didn't go that route.

Works either way,just less work.

Take it to PM if need be.

Pete

[tpepmeie]

32 custom titanium retainers (CHE Precision) arrived today... now just waiting my plenum and TB to get finished. Might have the little 427 running by fall....

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_2475.jpg

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_2477.jpg

http://i1036.photobucket.com/albums/a441/tpepmeie/IMG_2478.jpg

[Pete]

Looking Good,Todd

Get her done for 2011 BG.:)

Pete

[XfireZ51]

Todd,

Did you investigate beehive springs? Any chance you'll be giving us an indication of what this baby costs to duplicate?

[Polo-1]

just about double the standard cost of a 415. my guess
That one hot 427:notworthy

[tpepmeie]

Todd,

Did you investigate beehive springs? Any chance you'll be giving us an indication of what this baby costs to duplicate?

No behives here. Using a single Eibach spring, the outer spring of a dual intended for Porsche 911. Difficult to find right combination of spring rate, frequency, and lift capacity. i went with the recommendation of the cam grinder. Spring force is less than OEM, yet good to 8800 rpm. not a chance I'll turn it that high.

Retainers were designed to yield the specified Intake spring height. Will use .040" shims under exhaust springs for a lower installed height. The exhaust actually needs a little more seat force.

[tpepmeie]

just about double the standard cost of a 415. my guess
That one hot 427:notworthy

I stopped adding it up about a year ago .... Could probably duplicate it for around $40k. Don't tell my wife. ;)

This build cost more, simply because it absorbed a lot of design costs, and becuase of some of the ancillary parts and tools I had to buy. For example, started with a "bare" set of Dunn heads. Bare really means bare... had to put probably $1000 in small parts to complete them. i could have cannibalized the original motor, but didn't want to do that. Note to self... don't buy bare LT5 heads for a project like this.

[XfireZ51]

No behives here. Using a single Eibach spring, the outer spring of a dual intended for Porsche 911. Difficult to find right combination of spring rate, frequency, and lift capacity. i went with the recommendation of the cam grinder. Spring force is less than OEM, yet good to 8800 rpm. not a chance I'll turn it that high.

Retainers were designed to yield the specified Intake spring height. Will use .040" shims under exhaust springs for a lower installed height. The exhaust actually needs a little more seat force.

Great stuff Todd. Any chance you'll hve her done in time for the Corvette Challenge in Crown Pointe, Ind.?
That'll be in October at Rt. 41 Raceway.

[Topfuel]

Did you look into valve seat angles on our N/A motors we have found a lot of flow below .050" lift. Right when the valve comes off the seat basically it a a radius grind on the valve and seat.
I was looking into Valve springs for my turbo motor since the boost pushes against the surface area of the valve there by decreasing the effective spring pressure. I looked into behive and liked the natrual harmonic of the spring is very high. Just would have to have custom valve spring retainers made didn't want to go thru that. Isky has springs made for Fiat that will work and have a couple of sets not that it will do you anygood now. Also valve lift would be at coil bind before .5 lift. You can get Ti springs made that is what prostock and Top Alchol motors are now using you can lower spring pressure and use single spring to 10500 rpm. Lower pressure = less paracitic loss in the engine. The cams look fantastic. A lot of work! More flow can be acheaved on valve seat and the pocket area of the port that is where most head porters are now spending a lot of thier time. Again WOW on the cams. my .02 worth

[W i l l]

If it was me, I would have had to order about 40 of those custom retainers, because some would get dropped, some would get launched into the far reaches the garage after ricocheting off the ceiling and walls, the dog might swallow one, etc........Just talking from experience. ;)

32 custom titanium retainers (CHE Precision) arrived today... now just waiting my plenum and TB to get finished. Might have the little 427 running by fall....

[SAM/CH ZR-1]

Todd

What is the compression ratio you are going with?

Sam

[tpepmeie]

Todd

What is the compression ratio you are going with?

Sam

ended up at 12.1:1

[SAM/CH ZR-1]

ended up at 12.1:1

I see
I am finishing here a 427 and go with a 13.2 : 1 ratio with Stage 3 cams and 40/36 mm valves.

Sam

[tpepmeie]

I see
I am finishing here a 427 and go with a 13.2 : 1 ratio with Stage 3 cams and 40/36 mm valves.

Sam

I want to run pump gas without pushing the head gaskets out. E85 with 13+ compression might be interesting.

[tpepmeie]

Degreed the cams yesterday. As everyone says... the first one took about 3 hours, mostly because we couldn't get a reliable measurement on the darn thing. After that, things got faster and we mounted the dial indicator differently.

Ended up making the small adjustments by moving the cams to the right lift at the specified .050 opening point. Took an average of 6 readings (.020, .050, .200, opening side and closing side) to verify the centerline. Got all but one to less than a degree from spec. The LH intake cam is 1 degree retarded. Close enough for me!

Only wasted one $16 bolt on the first one we set. It moved three degrees out when we torqued it.

Dyno session set for week of 17 Jan.

Todd

P.S. Sam, how did your motor turn out?

[Polo-1]

you must have all your parts from Greg:mrgreen:
Cant wait to hear some dyno #'s.

Hope to have mine in Jim's car this spring and get some final tuning and #'s on it.

those cams are fun to time by yourself:censored:

[Pete]

Todd,can't wait to hear & see that monster run.

A long wait but well worth it,you'll forget all about the work and money you put in her the first time you hit 7500. :thumbsup:

Happy New Year
Pete

[Locobob]

:happy1:

You've done a lot of unique things with this build, can't wait to see how it turns out.

[tpepmeie]

Just noticed my cams appear on the bottom right of this page:
http://integralcams.com/custom_cams.htm

Truly a one-of-a-kind now. :cry: Steve has sold the business recently. What a bummer, he was very good to work with and we might have had a long-term supplier of new LT5 cams. They performed flawlessly on my 427.

Todd

[XfireZ51]

Todd,

What's next for the 427?

[Hog]

Just noticed my cams appear on the bottom right of this page:
http://integralcams.com/custom_cams.htm

Truly a one-of-a-kind now. :cry: Steve has sold the business recently. What a bummer, he was very good to work with and we might have had a long-term supplier of new LT5 cams. They performed flawlessly on my 427.

Todd
He sold the business, is the new owner going to produce cams?

How many hours on the engine now?

I was talking with a cam manufacturer about producing LT5 cams, but I couldnt answer all of his questions about the number that I would require. Any lift duration could be provided.

If I ever do LT5 cams, I'll just get new OEM cams reground. Way cheaper than buying cams that are ground from the original Lingenfelter cam core stock, or than buying true custom cams from non-OEM blanks.

We need GM Powertrain, Bay City to do another run of blanks. They just got a large cash infusion for 2011, around $38 million IIRC. The tooling would be around somewhere. Just like the ZL-1 427 aluminum block tooling was tucked away at the Winter's Foundry of which they made 200 ZL-1 454's and multiple ZL-1 aluminum block based crate engines from.

GMPP sold 2.0/2.2 Ecotec camshaft blanks for $78 a piece
88858611 for the intake
88958612 for the exhaust

It would be nice to find some LT5 blanks at $78 a piece.

Cams can easily be done, it will just take a bit of effort and a fair sized monetary investment to make LT5 cam cores available. It will also take open and honest sharing of info, which is difficult at times, esp. when money becomes involved.

peace
Hog

[Locobob]

He sold the business, is the new owner going to produce cams?

How many hours on the engine now?

I was talking with a cam manufacturer about producing LT5 cams, but I couldnt answer all of his questions about the number that I would require. Any lift duration could be provided.

If I ever do LT5 cams, I'll just get new OEM cams reground. Way cheaper than buying cams that are ground from the original Lingenfelter cam core stock, or than buying true custom cams from non-OEM blanks.

We need GM Powertrain, Bay City to do another run of blanks. They just got a large cash infusion for 2011, around $38 million IIRC. The tooling would be around somewhere. Just like the ZL-1 427 aluminum block tooling was tucked away at the Winter's Foundry of which they made 200 ZL-1 454's and multiple ZL-1 aluminum block based crate engines from.

GMPP sold 2.0/2.2 Ecotec camshaft blanks for $78 a piece
88858611 for the intake
88958612 for the exhaust

It would be nice to find some LT5 blanks at $78 a piece.

Cams can easily be done, it will just take a bit of effort and a fair sized monetary investment to make LT5 cam cores available. It will also take open and honest sharing of info, which is difficult at times, esp. when money becomes involved.

peace
Hog

I agree, the scalping and secrecy just doesn't fit anymore. These cars are now 20 years old and the current crop of owners have more passion than money. Those with big bucks have mostly moved on to newer platforms. Continuing to treat LT-5 stuff like F1 technology is just silly. I'd like to see things progress in a manner that emphasizes maximizing the car rather than ones wallet. I predict those holding out for $5000 for crankshafts and $3000 for cams are going to find takers few and far between.

[XfireZ51]

I agree, the scalping and secrecy just doesn't fit anymore. These cars are now 20 years old and the current crop of owners have more passion than money. Those with big bucks have mostly moved on to newer platforms. Continuing to treat LT-5 stuff like F1 technology is just silly. I'd like to see things progress in a manner that emphasizes maximizing the car rather than ones wallet. I predict those holding out for $5000 for crankshafts and $3000 for cams are going to find takers few and far between.

Bob,

With technology advancing all the time, the longer the hoarders wait the less important they'll become. As we can see with some members like Lgaff and Blue Flame, more and more of these parts are being reproduced at cheaper costs.

[Locobob]

Bob,

With technology advancing all the time, the longer the hoarders wait the less important they'll become. As we can see with some members like Lgaff and Blue Flame, more and more of these parts are being reproduced at cheaper costs.

That is my thought as well. I don't have a problem with people making an honest buck for honest work - just don't see the point of gouging anymore.

P.S. None of this is aimed at you Todd, sorry to clutter up your thread. Love to hear more about how your 427 project is going - still think you should do a full write up on it for HOTB.

[tpepmeie]

I don't understand the hard feelings on this topic. Individuals can make a choice whether to pursue custom cams, some may decide it's cost prohibitive. Others don't.

My cams cost over $4000. most of that cost is in the machining of the blanks. It is not an insignificant machining process to go from a bar of tool steel to a finished product. Of that cost, the profile design work was about $400, and the final machining was about $800. The rest was making drawings (reverse engineering from OE shafts), the raw billet, and machining the blanks. I don't feel like I paid too much.

Of course, cast iron cores, produced in large quantities would dramatically lower the acquisition cost. But until somebody steps up with the non-recurring cost to cast blanks that's not an option. Off the shelf, generic profiles would eliminate the profile design fees, but might not be optimal for a given combo.

Horses for courses. These aren't Ecotecs, SBC's, or Modular Motors we're modifying....

[XfireZ51]

Todd,

Goes for me also. :cheers:




...P.S. None of this is aimed at you Todd, sorry to clutter up your thread. Love to hear more about how your 427 project is going - still think you should do a full write up on it for HOTB.

[Hog]

I don't understand the hard feelings on this topic. Individuals can make a choice whether to pursue custom cams, some may decide it's cost prohibitive. Others don't.

My cams cost over $4000. most of that cost is in the machining of the blanks. It is not an insignificant machining process to go from a bar of tool steel to a finished product. Of that cost, the profile design work was about $400, and the final machining was about $800. The rest was making drawings (reverse engineering from OE shafts), the raw billet, and machining the blanks. I don't feel like I paid too much.

Of course, cast iron cores, produced in large quantities would dramatically lower the acquisition cost. But until somebody steps up with the non-recurring cost to cast blanks that's not an option. Off the shelf, generic profiles would eliminate the profile design fees, but might not be optimal for a given combo.

Horses for courses. These aren't Ecotecs, SBC's, or Modular Motors we're modifying....

I agree, folks can make their own minds up if they want to pursue custom cams. I really enjoy hearing the stories of owners coming up with inventive solutions to problems, just like yours. This is a course that I will never steer, but I enjoy it just the same. Those cams are beautiful.
I also don't think you paid too much either, in fact if I had to guess at the cost, I would have thought it would have been higher.

I do think that taking an OEM blank, which for the Ecotec sells at retail prices for $78 (roughly the same amount of material in the casting as an LT5 cam-Ecotec has 2 cams I/E for an inline 4, make that engine a V8 and you obviously require 4 camshafts-pass. side I&E and the drivers side I&E) and charge upwards of $4000 for 4 ground flat tappet camshafts, is a little on the exorbitant side. Maybe I'm wrong?

Cam blanks could be ground to whatever the user wanted, there are many competent cam grinders in North America. Have cam blank, will travel.

GM has supported I-4 DOHC engines with available cam blanks, back to times, when the LT5 was a simple dream people read about in magazines.

Yes, the LT5 is not an Ecotec, SBC or Ford Mod motor, but Ferrari V-12 and Flat-12 raw cam blanks can be had for $100 a piece and the Italian engines are assuredly more exotic than the I-4, pushrod or Ford DOHC I listed.

Was there ever a GM p/n for LT5 cam blanks? Ive found working p/n's for the remaining 375hp and 405hp cams, but nothing for blanks.


peace
Hog

[Pete]

I don't know what all this is about.

To reproduce our cams cost a lot of $$$$,what Todd paid was reasonable.

The price to regrind 2 LT5 cams is not so bad compared to LSx cams $500-$600 for one cam.

I personally paid for 4 masters that i have not made a dime or come close to breaking even, i did it with my money and labor.
I asked people to go in on it with me the excuses i got were i don't think i will ever put cams in my Z or what if it doesn't work.
Would it be fear for me to give it away.

I have looked into reproducing head gaskets and cams about 7 years ago and got the same excuses so i gave up.

Now i'm looking into reproducing bumper moldings and secondary chains also thinking about tensioners.

If anybody is interested let me know.
As you all know the more we order the less it costs.

Pete

[sammy]

pete i will help on the chains and tensioners if you decide to go ahead with them .

[Locobob]

I don't understand the hard feelings on this topic. Individuals can make a choice whether to pursue custom cams, some may decide it's cost prohibitive. Others don't.

My cams cost over $4000. most of that cost is in the machining of the blanks. It is not an insignificant machining process to go from a bar of tool steel to a finished product. Of that cost, the profile design work was about $400, and the final machining was about $800. The rest was making drawings (reverse engineering from OE shafts), the raw billet, and machining the blanks. I don't feel like I paid too much.

Of course, cast iron cores, produced in large quantities would dramatically lower the acquisition cost. But until somebody steps up with the non-recurring cost to cast blanks that's not an option. Off the shelf, generic profiles would eliminate the profile design fees, but might not be optimal for a given combo.

Horses for courses. These aren't Ecotecs, SBC's, or Modular Motors we're modifying....

I think it's more frustration than hard feelings. From what I've heard the existing cam blanks are being tightly controlled and carry a stiff price. I don't know how many exist, some say just a few, others maintain its a bunch. If the latter is true then I think the selling strategy is out of touch with current reality.
Custom, one off billet cams are going to be pricey by nature and I'm not criticizing the cost of such endeavors. I, and others I'm sure were hoping your project might bear some fruit as a new source of cams. Sadly it looks like this will be unlikely to happen.
My thought is that billet is the most logical approach for new cams as I doubt anyone will cough up the investment necessary to have a new run of blanks made up. If we could get a cam maker set up with the basic design dialed in then I think the best approach would be for those with knowledge to collaborate and come up with 2 or 3 profiles to make. If folks pool resources I think this could happen and the price point could move down enough to make it worthwhile.

[LGAFF]

Loco I think I have one of the profile options covered for everything but large strokers...

[Pete]

LocoBob,the biggest regrind i can get is like LPE's C cams .239 .440
If you think you need bigger you have to go with custom/billets $$$

I know of 2 big inch LT5's with .239 .440In .224 .415Ex one runs 132+ MPH the other is faster they drive like stock ZR-1 very docile.

I bet they would pass emissions.:)

Pete

[Locobob]

Loco I think I have one of the profile options covered for everything but large strokers...

Yes I think you FBI boys are getting a pretty good handle on what works for milder applications. Wish we could get some big cams like Todd's swapped into an existing stroker to see how they do. Todd's motor is a bit too outside of the box to glean cam comparison data from.

[A26B]

I think it's more frustration than hard feelings. From what I've heard the existing cam blanks are being tightly controlled and carry a stiff price. I don't know how many exist, some say just a few, others maintain its a bunch. If the latter is true then I think the selling strategy is out of touch with current reality.

I agree.... to a point. Consider that the stockpile of cam blanks were acquired at great expense. it is a well recognized fact that the LT5 parts market is very limited, a fact that is verified by the aftermarket. None of the usual aftermarket big boys like Victor, Fel-Pro, Jegs, etc are making anything for the LT5.

I have no idea how many blanks were acquired, nor do I know what the sales have been, but I do understand rate of return economics. The acquisition justification is based on cost, projected sales, sales price and the cost to finalize machine work & grind.

I don't think it's fair to criticize the sales price, not knowing if the investment has even returned cost, let alone a reasonable return on investment. Personally, I don't think there is any gouging going on. It's just the economics of a low production volume engine with no support from the manufacturer.

I've put out a fair amount of bucks to acquire & manufacture parts for the LT5 and after 3+ years of reinvesting proceeds, I still have a pretty good list of parts to develop and seriously doubt that I will be able to permenantly bank any profits for a long while yet. It's OK for me because I am retired and don't depend on it for a living..... thank goodness.

In summary, I do acknowledge the cams are expensive especially when it takes 4 of them. That's a characteristic of the LT5, not supplier greed. LT5 cam blanks take a lot of machine work to finish, not just a simple lobe grind with the center lube system. Big difference in tooling & set up between 4 and 400 pcs.