Head Gaskets?

[bdw18_123]

What's the deal with these? Over at CF they are saying you can't get them anymore. Jerry, I notice your site says you are out of the LH ones. Is this just temporary, or are you going to have more made?

I hope it is temporary because I'm going to need them in the future for my LT5 and I don't want to end up paying $500 per gasket because they suddenly became rare and the few that are still around skyrocket in price. And when they are gone, we will all be f***ed.

Enlighten us Jerry... :mrgreen:

[A26B]

It's a problem that I've been working on for the last year, and seriously for the last 6 months.
In the interim, until a suitable replacement is available, head gaskets are still available from Kurt White. His website lists;
81 ea 10106177 LH Head Gaskets in stock @ $98.16ea
10 ea 10106176 RH Head Gaskets in stock @ NOT SOLD SEPARATELY, SETS RH & LH ONLY.

Interestingly enough, he indicates the shortage is with the RH head gasket. My experience and that of others has been just the opposite.

As a progress report of sorts: In my research, I've found that the term open deck includes several different concepts, ranging from the LT5 design at one end to designs like the new Chrysler/Dodge engine presently used in NASCAR. The Dodge engine has the cylinder bank cast into the block & is not replaceable. It's open deck, but a cast-in, integral part of the block casting. Head gasket development for an open deck engine of this type is not a problem.

The LT5 engine is a miracle in manufacturing perfection of precision machine work with exacting tolerances, but it presents some problems in being able to verify the flatness of the head gasket deck surface of the individual cylinders as an assembly within the cylinder case from one end to the other and across the block deck. For MLS (multi-layer steel) gaskets, it creates a problem in that Cometic has stated to me, "the MLS head gasket will leak if flatness is over 0.002". Not maybe but will. This is not to say that it can't be achieved, but it's going to require some special tooling and significant skills to be able to check flatness of the cylinder/block considering the cylinders should have a 0.002" ~ 0/003" pride heifght above the block deck.

This issue begs the question about how the stock head gasket achieved the seal. I can only offer my opinion based on knowledge gained during research, but it is by no means represented as "the final answer." The stock gasket is made from a polymer named "Astadur." Its pliable in its new state, but hardens during the heat cycle of the engine during operation. This flexibility permits the gasket to compensate for the tolerance of variance normally incurred in manufacturing and assembly of the LT5 engine, by letting each individual cylinder's combustion seal align to the cylinder deck. Once the gasket hardens, it provides more backing support by becoming stiff & rigid.

The problem with MLS is that they don't have this flexibility and may not have the ability to conform to each individual cylinder deck. Bottm line is I think it's a crap shoot with MLS in the LT5. Maybe you get a seal on all 8 cylinders and maybe you don't. It's a real gamble to take on a headgasket considering engine removal and cam timing. The MLS gasket's greates attribute, rigidity/strength, is its biggest liability for the LT5.

Is Astadur available. In short, no. The gaskets were originally made by Goetze for GM. Goetze has since been acquired by FelPro. FelPro has not returned any of my many calls and emails.

Are there other possibilities for stock replacement? I certainly hope so, but it's not coming easy.

What about the cost for stock replacements? In excess of $300/set.

What about high performance buid solutions (12:1 plus and boosted engines). Also on the board. Certainly expensive, requiring new cylinders/liners/sleeves, but much better than conventional style head gaskets, including Cometic MLS. Pricing & details not ready for publication.

In summary, I'm willing to invest a significant chunk of change to develop a replacement head gasket for the LT5 engine. I'm not willing to do it for a product I don't have confidence in that it will do the job at least as well as the original head gasket. Getting that confidence is the really difficult part. One engine build doesn't guarantee success, but it does require the total investment into up-front tooling & manufacturing costs. Before I do it, I will have to be convinced of a very high degree of certainty.

.....and that's the way it is. Good day:wave:

[bdw18_123]

Thank you for all that detailed info, Jerry! Makes sense, I'm the type of person that needs to understand exactly how & why things are the way they are, so that info helps me to understand the issue.

And I (and I'm sure everyone else here) really appreciates the hard work you do to help keep these amazing cars going strong after 20 years! It would really suck if all our ZR-1's eventually had to be taken off the road all because of 2 stupid (albeit, very important) gaskets

Hopefully, this headgasket problem can be worked out. I would think that there should be an equivalent polymer material to this "Astadur" stuff, but I know it would take a lot of time and money to find one, if it even exists.

[limey]

If it's R/H head gasket you need, the only person i know other than us that has them is Pete, he purchased the remainder of the head gaskets from GM a month or so back.

Send him a PM or post on here, he'll probably sell you just the one gasket, i think he purchased 30 + of them, so i'm sure he still has some left.

It its LH you need, i've plenty in stock.

The problem with us was 18 months go we had that water main burst in our warehouse and i had to scrap nearly $80k worth of parts, that included nearly all our head gaskets.

[JThomas]

Thanks for that detailed explanation Jerry. The education continues!

[Paul Workman]

Hey, Jerry!

Good info. A Question: What about the boyz building the closed deck conversions for the LT5s? I'm sure Bob G or Pete might have some insight here; love to hear from them on this too, but does the closed deck sleeves approach e.g., Bob G's 427 or Al's 441 or Kevin's 441s alleviate any of this gasket issue?

:happy1:

P.

[XfireZ51]

Jerry,

Super information. Thank you for your efforts!

[Pete]

Guys stock gaskets work just fine.
A while back i talked to a major Gasket company.

They want $25-$30k for tooling and $5 each gasket all we need is right hand gasket it will work for both just need to cut the oil hole.

So if we order 1000 gaskets 500 sets it comes out to $35 each gasket.
After that they will cost $10 a set.

I brought this up a while ago but fell on deaf ears so i stocked up on head gaskets.
I also had expressed concern on bearings a while back also fell on deaf ears then the whiners came out cause they had to pay almost $1k for bearings that cost $15 to produce.

So for those that are interested raise your hands.

Otherwise you will be paying $500-$1000 for gaskets from the other guy and i don't wanna hear the whiners.

I have plenty heads gaskets for
(1) last me 2 life times
or
(2) make me lots of money

I think MLS will work with the closed deck but majority of LT5's are open deck the other question is who will test them,i don't think any of the boys here will test them on there big $$$ closed decks.

Pete

[phrogs]

ill buy a set


Guys stock gaskets work just fine.
A while back i talked to a major Gasket company.

They want $25-$30k for tooling and $5 each gasket all we need is right hand gasket it will work for both just need to cut the oil hole.

So if we order 1000 gaskets 500 sets it comes out to $35 each gasket.
After that they will cost $10 a set.

I brought this up a while ago but fell on death ears so i stocked up on head gaskets.
I also had expressed concern on bearings a while back also fell on death ears then the whiners came out cause they had to pay almost $1k for bearings that cost $15 to produce.

So for those that are interested raise your hands.

Otherwise you will be paying $500-$1000 for gaskets from the other guy and i don't wanna hear the whiners.

I have plenty heads gaskets for
(1) last me 2 life times
or
(2) make me lots of money

I think MLS will work with the closed deck but majority of LT5's are open deck the other question is who will test them,i don't think any of the boys here will test them on there big $$$ closed decks.

Pete

[xlr8nflorida]

Sorry, it fell on deaf ears :mad:

I'd be game.

[Pete]

Johnny this was 3 years ago when i looked into it,i was not ready to dish out
that kind of coin it was cheaper to stock up on GM gaskets.

The way this would work is the registry or someone trust worthy to collect the money and do the legwork for a small fee.
I think Lee could do this i can help.

Pete

[limey]

Guys stock gaskets work just fine.
A while back i talked to a major Gasket company.

They want $25-$30k for tooling and $5 each gasket all we need is right hand gasket it will work for both just need to cut the oil hole.

So if we order 1000 gaskets 500 sets it comes out to $35 each gasket.
After that they will cost $10 a set.

I brought this up a while ago but fell on death ears so i stocked up on head gaskets.
I also had expressed concern on bearings a while back also fell on death ears then the whiners came out cause they had to pay almost $1k for bearings that cost $15 to produce.

So for those that are interested raise your hands.

Otherwise you will be paying $500-$1000 for gaskets from the other guy and i don't wanna hear the whiners.

I have plenty heads gaskets for
(1) last me 2 life times
or
(2) make me lots of money

I think MLS will work with the closed deck but majority of LT5's are open deck the other question is who will test them,i don't think any of the boys here will test them on there big $$$ closed decks.

Pete

I'll take some.

In the meantime until someone steps up and re-makes these gaskets, i propose this. I'll send Jerry 10 LH gaskets @ $50.00 and Pete, you send Jerry 10 sets of the RH gaskets @ $50.00 each, that way everyone wins. I've got plenty of LH gaskets and you've got 30 + RH, will this work?

[LGAFF]

Copper seems to be an alternative when its set up right:

http://www.norwoodperformance.com/engine.htm

http://www.ferriday.co.uk/copper/copper.shtml

http://www.928motorsports.com/parts/copper_head_gaskets.php

[flyin ryan]

Copper sucks. Hate it. P.I.A. :thumbsdo:. I'd be Ssooo desperate before I'd use Copper on anything.

[Jeffvette]

Copper sucks. Hate it. P.I.A. :thumbsdo:. I'd be Ssooo desperate before I'd use Copper on anything.


Tell us how you really feel.

[flyin ryan]

Tell us how you really feel.O.K.! ....Just kidding, I'm done :). I did talk to Fel-Pro a while back, I know/deal a couple guys there, they did tell me as Jerry said about Fel-Pro buying Goertze. They said they didn't know or have plans to produce those gaskets anytime soon, if at all, but they do have the tooling for them, they thought anyways :icon_scra.

[lbszr]

Copper sucks. Hate it. P.I.A. :thumbsdo:. I'd be Ssooo desperate before I'd use Copper on anything.

Are the rubber coated copper one's any better? Flatout has them if they are.

[Polo-1]

no, copper is known for water/oil leaks..

[LGAFF]

I would agree that I have heard the same of copper, but I would doubt any of the companies above would put a head gasket in that was prone to failure. If I have time to call today, will call Norwood and see if they have had issues.

[LGAFF]

I might have found a solution for our gaskets, anyone have an old one?

[tomtom72]

This may not be the place for me to say that "I'm in" if we need people to pre-pay and pre-order head gaskets.....tell me how much and where to send the cash.

Thanks to you guys that do the research into this stuff!:thumbsup:

:cheers:
Tom

[DaveK]

"Im in" too

[Bob G]

yes pete has some

[Pete]

I might have found a solution for our gaskets, anyone have an old one?


Lee,got that covered.
Come pick up as many as you want.

Pete

[bobbyhi]

I would take a set also................

[Pete]

I'll take some.

In the meantime until someone steps up and re-makes these gaskets, i propose this. I'll send Jerry 10 LH gaskets @ $50.00 and Pete, you send Jerry 10 sets of the RH gaskets @ $50.00 each, that way everyone wins. I've got plenty of LH gaskets and you've got 30 + RH, will this work?


Kurt, i'll trade you for 10 sets of main bearing sets.;)

Pete

[LGAFF]

Struck out on the first guy.......he has built one off head gaskets...Lambos, old 12 cyl cars, etc....he has apparently called it quits....

I noted that there is a Fiat and Alpha gasket that is coated the same as a the Z, called the repro manufacturer, who is in Chicago area, left message.

There is a company that produces the coating also....I noted that the intent of the coating is to avoid a retorque. Apparently copper and other gaskets might require a retorque in our application.

[GOLDCYLON]

Id buy a pair for just in case. GC

[Pete]

Here a few reasons why i won't sell.

Kurt when you sell your parts you like to make 1000% profit but when it comes to others selling parts they can only make 100%.
But that's not the reason.:p

I do have 10 sets of LH & RH.

1: don't need the money (unless the offer is 1000% profit)
2: don't wanna pay 1000 times more later
3: i don't have a 401k plan (gaskets = 401k) :)
4: here comes the conservative side of me "got mine you get yours":p

Pete

[flyin ryan]

Here a few reasons why i won't sell.



I do have 10 sets of LH & RH.

1: don't need the money (unless the offer is 1000% profit)
2: don't wanna pay 1000 times more later
3: i don't have a 401k plan (gaskets = 401k) :)
4: here comes the conservative side of me "got mine you get yours":p

PeteSounds fair enough to me :dontknow:. I got no problem with that attitude at all.

[Dynomite]

Here a few reasons why i won't sell.

I do have 10 sets of LH & RH.

1: don't need the money (unless the offer is 1000% profit)
2: don't wanna pay 1000 times more later
3: i don't have a 401k plan (gaskets = 401k) :)
4: here comes the conservative side of me "got mine you get yours":p

Pete


:cheers::thumbsup:

I could say more but then again......I think you pretty well covered it :mrgreen:

[limey]

Here a few reasons why i won't sell.

Kurt when you sell your parts you like to make 1000% profit but when it comes to others selling parts they can only make 100%.
But that's not the reason.:p

I do have 10 sets of LH & RH.

1: don't need the money (unless the offer is 1000% profit)
2: don't wanna pay 1000 times more later
3: i don't have a 401k plan (gaskets = 401k) :)
4: here comes the conservative side of me "got mine you get yours":p

Pete

Pete,

Your parts, do what you like, the original poster as well as Jerry made mention of where to get them, i offered a solution.

I don't know why all the worry about head gaskets all of a sudden, when the need arises they will be made available.

[cvette]

Here a few reasons why i won't sell.

Kurt when you sell your parts you like to make 1000% profit but when it comes to others selling parts they can only make 100%.
But that's not the reason.:p

I do have 10 sets of LH & RH.

1: don't need the money (unless the offer is 1000% profit)
2: don't wanna pay 1000 times more later
3: i don't have a 401k plan (gaskets = 401k) :)
4: here comes the conservative side of me "got mine you get yours":p

Pete

Hey Pete! You know, you and I think a hell of alot alike!

Charlie

[Pete]

I'll take some.

In the meantime until someone steps up and re-makes these gaskets, i propose this. I'll send Jerry 10 LH gaskets @ $50.00 and Pete, you send Jerry 10 sets of the RH gaskets @ $50.00 each, that way everyone wins. I've got plenty of LH gaskets and you've got 30 + RH, will this work?



Kurt, sell me the LH.

Pete

[Pete]

Anybody have LH gaskets i will buy for $50 new.


Pete

[LGAFF]

While you guys bicker like a bunch of old hens over the last piece of corn.....I have call outs to a company in AU that makes Astadur based products, and a call to a fiat engine rebuilder to see what they are using and if they have a resource, as the fiat used the same material. Also sent a note to Victor Reinz about gasket production.





Cluck you all!

[LGAFF]

Victor Rein is Dana is Mahle, so although polite they are unable to help. I am pleading for rings sets now. Other alternatives out there...will keep looking.

[LGAFF]

Will call these guys today:

http://www.norwoodperformance.com/machine_shop_services.htm


Bet these guys can fix our our heads and match mismatched cam covers/heads:

http://www.norwoodperformance.com/images/ForzaP4.jpg

[A26B]

Just so there is no misunderstanding , I am still actively working on a head gasket solution. When I have a solution, I will post then.

Also, Oem rings are available. I have them. Yes, they are expensive. My price is less tha half of the GM price. I have abt 15 sets. There is a reason they are so expensive, it's the oil ring. It's not your ordinary stamped steel expanded with plated, spring steel wipers. The OEM is a one piece, cast ring with integral wipers & vent slots. Lotus engineers must have chosen this design for a reason over the conventional, less expensive & common design.

I'm not trying to sell anyone anything they don't want. Buy whatever you prefer, just want to make sure that everyone knows OEM rings are available.... For the present time.

[LGAFF]

Mahle has nothing, no matches for rings or gaskets. Jerry if you are confident in your Head Gasket search, I will let it go.....rings came up because the first person at Mahle told me all they have the rings....turns out he was wrong.


Also, did not see your post on fixing heads/covers ran across the article while looking at the 308 rebiuld.

Thanks Jerry!

[Pete]

Kurt,my money is just as good as Jerry's.

Heck,i can pay you in EURO's or US Dollars,you pick:)

Pete

[limey]

Pete,

Your money is everybit as green as Jerry's, heck you gave me $1600.00 of it just last month.

You have my tel. # if you wish to negotiate a deal, by all means call me tomorrow. I've got very limited stock of these 10106177 gaskets, i have 22 left as of today.

PS, I'm English you do know that right, it's the Pound silly, not the bloody Euro.

[A26B]

I should have posted to this thread long ago. I just discovered my mistake while reviewing Google searches.

LT5 Head gaskets are available.

RH Head Gasket
http://jerrysgaskets.com/store2/root/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16_18&products_id=439

http://jerrysgaskets.com/store2/root/images/10106176,%20Head%20Gasket,%20RH.jpg



LH Head Gasket
http://jerrysgaskets.com/store2/root/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=16_18&products_id=383

http://jerrysgaskets.com/store2/root/images/10106177,%20Head%20Gasket,%20LH.JPG

[GOLDCYLON]

Awesome Jerry! Thanks to your continued support to the the ZR-1 community !!!! :handshak:

[FU]

Nice job Jerry :cheers: