Whats going to go out first,master cylinder or slave..............

[Z51JEFF]

For the clutch?

[LGAFF]

Either.....I would do both as a set. Did both on my 90, only did the master on the 92 and noticed that the clutch engagement is not right, will be doing the slave this spring.

[GOLDCYLON]

Either.....I would do both as a set. Did both on my 90, only did the master on the 92 and noticed that the clutch engagement is not right, will be doing the slave this spring.


Concur. I suggest doing both at the same time just did mine.

I bought my clutch master cylinder from these folks at Ebay auction #360224585374
The part was made in the UK. Works great and a good price. I would ask them if they have any more. Daryll

[Z51JEFF]

How much of a pain is it to get to the rod thats connected to the pedal?

[tomtom72]

How much of a pain is it to get to the rod thats connected to the pedal?

actually not as bad as you would think. I don't even have to lay down to get it. The rod has an eye that goes over the pedal's stud and the locking clip holds it in place. I usually just reach up the pedal arm till I get to the rod & feel around for the clip. I guess the first time it helps to see it, but the clip has a tab that comes off of the circle and goes over the middle. Just find the edge of the tab and push up and it unlocks and slide the clip sideways and the clip comes off in your hand and the rod is free.

The knee bolster has to come down, mind the wires to the ALDL and the foot well light as they are a bit short. I usually get all the screws out, 7mm bolt heads, drop the panel and then take out the bolt for the ALDL, and then pull the connector on the light. I don't remember how many 7mm bolts in the bolster, maybe 7 I think. There are three up at the wrap around part by the side of the bolster, they hide in the fuzzy carpet. Three more on the face just under the dash edge, and one down in the very end where it turns from carpet to plastic, that one is in a recess and is almost centered in the panel. I pretty sure they are all 7mm heads. It's been a while, sorry. I'll get to do this, again, as soon as my set arrives from rockauto.

:cheers:

[GOLDCYLON]

What Tom said. Anything under the Hush panel areas of either side of the beast in short, is always going to be a pain or a PITA if you prefer. Its not required but I would suggest pulling the seat makes life a whole lot easier to work under there. 4 Nuts, couple of harness plugs and you have plenty of room under there to work. Well plenty is subjective you have "more" room to work under there :)

[Z51JEFF]

Ive had the hush panel off for the brake light switch.I dont need to replace the master-slave just yet but want to get to it before they go.The trans gets funny if you hit 3rd gear hard,Ill replace the trans fluid before I change out the other parts.Thanks all for the info.

[tomtom72]

:o not wanting to tell you what to do Jeff, but it sounds like the pair should be done sooner rather than later Bro.

The going into 3rd on the funky side seems to be the tell tale generally.

:cheers:
Tom

[Z51JEFF]

:o not wanting to tell you what to do Jeff, but it sounds like the pair should be done sooner rather than later Bro.

The going into 3rd on the funky side seems to be the tell tale generally.

:cheers:
Tom

Thats what Bill B told me when I asked about the fluid for the trans.now,Ive got limited space in my garage.If I remove the rear inner wheel well panel will that get me more access to the slave cylinder on the bell housing?I havent takin a look under the car yet,just started looking into this job.The cars got 14,000 miles but is this an age issue opposed to miles?

[GOLDCYLON]

cars got 14,000 miles but is this an age issue opposed to miles?

Yes time can be just as damaging as wear even more so in some moist climates and very dry climates. Even Dave M said to drive these cars. If you dont stuff will start to break, leak and fail. Do both master cyliners if only for piece of mind. According to the ZFDoc a bad slave will kill a healthy trans fast.

[Dynomite]

Concur. I suggest doing both at the same time just did mine.


Would these work from thepartsladi?
And...what is difference between the Clutch Slave new and Clutch Slave new cast version besides $115?

Daryll: Which Clutch Slave did you end up with..the expensive one or the "less expensive" one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/91-92-93-94-95-96-GM-CORVETTE-CLUTCH-SLAVE-CYLINDER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5d25dbe9b6QQit emZ400067127734QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5 fAccessories Clutch slave new ACD


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/91-92-93-94-95-96-CORVETTE-ZR1-CYLINDER-CLUTCH-SLAVE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem518d747facQQitemZ 350265573292QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAc cessories Clutch slave New ACD cast version


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/89-91-92-93-94-95-96-Corvette-Clutch-Master-Cylinder_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5d27ec2b30QQit emZ400101747504QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5 fAccessories Clutch master

[GOLDCYLON]

They are Single cast metal (one piece) instead of press molded together. Usually I suggest OEM on these type of replacement parts but the GM slave Master Cylinder has a very high failure rate out of the box. Much like the secondary throttle actuators.

Bill B the ZFDOC.COM posted up information on the website on these bad slave cylinders . The rubber internal plungers are either installed backwards or crimped off.

http://www.zfdoc.com/CHS_Actuator_Seal_Fault.htm

I was happy to find a vendor who sold a new clutch master cylinder from the UK. Im not sure of anybody who is running these Single cast cylinders yet

[Dynomite]

They are Single cast metal (one piece) instead of press molded together. Usually I suggest OEM on these type of replacement parts but the GM slave Master Cylinder has a very high failure rate out of the box. Much like the secondary throttle actuators.

Bill B the ZFDOC.COM posted up information on the website on these bad slave cylinders . The rubber internal plungers are either installed backwards or crimped off.

http://www.zfdoc.com/CHS_Actuator_Seal_Fault.htm

I was happy to find a vendor who sold a new clutch master cylinder from the UK. Im not sure of anybody who is running these Single cast cylinders yet

This is a case for the ole saying "Always Something" :sign10:

Thanks Daryll for the heads up :thumbsup:

[Z51JEFF]

Can the master cylinder be rebuilt?

[tomtom72]

Can the master cylinder be rebuilt?

In theory Yes, but if you try to order a "rebuild kit" good luck. I tried before GM became aware of their quality control issues and was given the "Back Ordered" response. I still think the master rebuild kit is listed in those "general" GM parts lists that you use at say GMPartsdirect.com to look up parts, but I've given up trying to order a kit. At one time GM offered a kit for both the slave and the master, which were also rare to find in stock.

I think it's telling that GM has removed the slave cylinder from their data base and list it as NLA now. I suspect that a quality control issue still exists with the slaves...I have no proof. I just think it's rather odd that after Bill B and Les Stanford chevy convinced GM to look into the quality issues with both the slaves & masters of the DOM type that GM withdrew the on hand stock. Further, while GM was listening to Bill & Les Stanford and saying that they would call TRW in to explain the quality faults found in the field use of the parts, you could not buy anything from GM for a good long while like 6 months. Then or I should say Now you can only get a master and the slave is NLA at GM. It's as if GM just gave up because they couldn't get quality replacements made at a reasonable price???

I was thinking to ask Bill if he has any further info as to the quality of the new stuff that is being sold by the aftermarket with respect to the slave cylinders....but I never got around to it. Besides Bill is a very busy man and I didn't want to waste his time with my stupid Q's. The only way that I know to tell if the slave has no issues is to take it apart. You have to be careful upon reassembly though because you can rip the piston seal on the snap ring's groove when you put the piston back into the bore. Bill says to chamfer the edges of the groove so as not to hang up the seal & rip it's micro-ridges.

Most of the quality issues with the masters were centered around poor weld quality at the hose bung, metal porosity causing leaks, and the reservoir foot not being formed right, and bore diameter variation and metal filings left over from drilling out the hole for the line bung. All of those issues affected the slaves as well along with the seal on backwards. This is the DOM types, the cast types of slaves only had the seal on backwards and stray metal filings. The cast masters only suffered from the plastic reservoirs foot not formed correctly and the metal filings not cleaned out.

:o Sorry to be so long about this, but that is the total of what I know of the past situation. I don't know if any of that stuff is relevant to any of the stuff being made at present.:o

Just as a fwiw, I have my new stuff coming and I have not as yet decided that I'm going to take it apart to check for all the past mistakes....I'm leaning toward doing so because the noises bad hydraulic parts make the trans make are sickening! It'll make you want to cry! The grinding noise is absolutely horrible! Let alone the knowledge of what is actually happening inside our gear boxes!

[Dynomite]

Most of the quality issues with the masters were centered around:

1. poor weld quality at the hose bung,
2. metal porosity causing leaks,
3. and the reservoir foot not being formed right,
4. bore diameter variation
5. metal filings left over from drilling out the hole for the line bung.
6. the seal on backwards.
7. slaves only had the seal on backwards
8. stray metal filings.
9. Cast suffered from the plastic reservoirs foot not formed correctly
10. the metal filings not cleaned out.


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It seems to me that what goes wrong with what I have in the Z now is sealing only :dontknow:

If that is the case, I would use the seals in one of those new ones with all the issues above as a "rebuild kit" and toss the rest of the crap away :sign10:

[tomtom72]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It seems to me that what goes wrong with what I have in the Z now is sealing only :dontknow:

If that is the case, I would use the seals in one of those new ones with all the issues above as a "rebuild kit" and toss the rest of the crap away :sign10:

Cliff, Had I known that GM was having quality issues from the supplier at the time ( fall 05 when my master leaked ) I would have saved the cores from the old master and the old slave and used the internal parts from the newly purchased "defective" new parts as a source of parts to rebuild my OEM stuff.

I just pulled the OE parts & tossed them and installed the new parts and...well the agony had just started for me. I finally gave up and out of desperation selected the best "cores" from all the new parts and used them as a base from which to assemble ( I used to say "make" but that is inaccurate as I didn't "make" anything! ) a slave and master that would actually work! The rest of the "new" slaves & masters I sent along to Bill because he asked for the parts so he could autopsy them and have proof of the issues on quality control. Some of the photos he posted on his site back then were from my selection of parts. I sent him a narrative of what symptoms each pair exhibited when installed in my car. He wrote back to me a detailed report of what defects he found in each set. It helped me find "new cores" that I could make into functioning parts. What a nightmare trip this was! I was beginning to think that I was incapable on installing simple hydraulic parts and bleeding them successfully! I had never stopped to consider that it was not my mechanical abilities, but that I was getting bad parts.

[Dynomite]

Usually what happens is the seals wear out and you just get a kit with seals, springs, and some other minor parts (at least that is what happens on brakes master and slave). I forget if I bought a slave cylinder kit or whole slave cylinder for my Toyota 4x4 when it had clutch issues (I think I bought a kit with seals at an auto parts store).

Bottom line.....what is one suppose to do on the Z slave and master cylinder? Everyone says replace both but now what?

[ckulchar]

Any opinions on the clutch master and slave cylinder from Advanced Auto? Description mentions machined out of solid blocks bored and honed. The master, slave cylinder, and some dot 3 synthetic oil would be about 158.00. There is a 20% discount off that and free shipping for on line orders. I was thinking of purchasing these.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subcategory_Clutch-Parts_-49997411_-49997327___

Thanks in advance. :cheers:

[Z51JEFF]

Cliff, Had I known that GM was having quality issues from the supplier at the time ( fall 05 when my master leaked ) I would have saved the cores from the old master and the old slave and used the internal parts from the newly purchased "defective" new parts as a source of parts to rebuild my OEM stuff.

I just pulled the OE parts & tossed them and installed the new parts and...well the agony had just started for me. I finally gave up and out of desperation selected the best "cores" from all the new parts and used them as a base from which to assemble ( I used to say "make" but that is inaccurate as I didn't "make" anything! ) a slave and master that would actually work! The rest of the "new" slaves & masters I sent along to Bill because he asked for the parts so he could autopsy them and have proof of the issues on quality control. Some of the photos he posted on his site back then were from my selection of parts. I sent him a narrative of what symptoms each pair exhibited when installed in my car. He wrote back to me a detailed report of what defects he found in each set. It helped me find "new cores" that I could make into functioning parts. What a nightmare trip this was! I was beginning to think that I was incapable on installing simple hydraulic parts and bleeding them successfully! I had never stopped to consider that it was not my mechanical abilities, but that I was getting bad parts.

This reminds me of a nightmare several years ago.My brother built a car using nothing but the best parts.When it came to the brake MS he bought the top of the line Tilton setup.WE spent hours trying to bleed the system,at one point went through a gallon of brake fluid,fluid EVERYWHERE only to find out days later that he had a MS that was part of a batch of defective parts.Based on what Ive heard about the garbage parts coming from G.M. Im going to TRY and find a rebuild kit for what I have,if not buy the new parts and either use the soft parts or take everything apart and inspect the new parts.

[Dynomite]

Im going to TRY and find a rebuild kit for what I have,if not buy the new parts and either use the soft parts or take everything apart and inspect the new parts.

If you find the rebuild kit or find good soft parts, let us know :thumbsup:

[Dynomite]

Any opinions on the clutch master and slave cylinder from Advanced Auto? Description mentions machined out of solid blocks bored and honed. The master, slave cylinder, and some dot 3 synthetic oil would be about 158.00. There is a 20% discount off that and free shipping for on line orders. I was thinking of purchasing these.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subcategory_Clutch-Parts_-49997411_-49997327___

Thanks in advance. :cheers:

:happy1:

[xlr8nflorida]

I wouldn't put a clutch in there :mrgreen:

[Dynomite]

I wouldn't put a clutch in there :mrgreen:
I can shift without the clutch (syncros take a beating)....but getting it in first gear is an issue :sign10:

Can I start it in first? :mrgreen:

If not, I will just hot wire the starter with a push button and label that button start in first gear :thumbsup:

[lakemeadzmonster]

I would go one step further and replace clutch disc as we'll if it hasn't been done. Also completely loosen hydraulic steel line ( if I remember right it has a clip on firewall I don't remember now) but I do remember I fought it until I loosened entire line. I also had to take out bleeder valve and the screw it back in after slave unit was installed. NAPA carried all of the original Euro parts supplier GM used.

[Z51JEFF]

Would these work from thepartsladi?
And...what is difference between the Clutch Slave new and Clutch Slave new cast version besides $115?


Id look everywhere before I bought anything from thepartsladi again but I do like there guarantee,find a part elsewhere for a cheaper price and we will TRY and beat it.Best price so far for AC Delco is $58 for the master and $80 for the slave but Ive only just now starting looking into this.

[Dynomite]

Best price so far for AC Delco is $58 for the master and $80 for the slave but Ive only just now starting looking into this.

What do you think about Advance Auto Clutch Master and Slave Cylinder?
The issue is not price anymore...it is quality me thinks :mrgreen:

Any opinions on the clutch master and slave cylinder from Advanced Auto?

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subcategory_Clutch-Parts_-49997411_-49997327___

Thanks in advance. :cheers:

[Z51JEFF]

What do you think about Advance Auto Clutch Master and Slave Cylinder?
The issue is not price anymore...it is quality me thinks :mrgreen:

Yes quality is the only issue when it comes to replacing these parts,I only want to do it once.Plus you have to take into account most likely AC Delco is getting there parts from the same place as mostly everybody else,thats why I would like to rebuild what I have knowing its done right,no shavings,backward seals,new parts that are garbage.

[tomtom72]

Any opinions on the clutch master and slave cylinder from Advanced Auto? Description mentions machined out of solid blocks bored and honed. The master, slave cylinder, and some dot 3 synthetic oil would be about 158.00. There is a 20% discount off that and free shipping for on line orders. I was thinking of purchasing these.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subcategory_Clutch-Parts_-49997411_-49997327___

Thanks in advance. :cheers:

I'm confused. Not trying to be a wise guy, but those parts are for a suburban not a C4 with a zf6spd.

However, the cast stuff vs the DOM style parts should not have the same issues associated with the pourous metal and the welding issues. There could be bore run out issues. The slave still could have the seal installed backwards if they are assembled by the same people.

I had bought a cast slave cylinder from Federal Mogul out of desperation. I never installed it as the mounting flange being cast was thicker than the DOM slave's mounting flange. I was doubtful that the thickness would allow for the studs to show enough thread to catch the mounting nuts. I used the F/M slave's internal parts to "make" my own slave cylinder from my best DOM body. I was surprised to find that there were none of the issues in the F/M cast slave: no metal fillings, no issues with the return spring, and the seal was entirely different design than the seals used in the DOM types. The F/M seal had no micro-ridges, was very much larger and with a more mushroom shape allowing for a broad shoulder section to do the function of the micro-ridges in the DOM slave cylinders. It worked, apparently worked fine up till very recently. So say from winter 06 till winter 09. I should say that I actually suspect that my master is giving me my issues and not the slave cylinder that I made up. Reason that I say that is Bill told me about our fire wall spacer during our e-mail talk. The spacer is not the optimal angle to allow for a entirely linear push by the masters push rod, causing an arch motion to the master's piston travel in the bore, which contributes to abnormal wear on the piston seals. Bill said that he was toying with the idea of making a spacer that would correct this design flaw if he got the time.

:cheers: gents!

Tom

[Dynomite]

I'm confused. Not trying to be a wise guy, but those parts are for a suburban not a C4 with a zf6spd.
:cheers: gents!

Tom

It says in several places those Advance Auto parts are for 1991 ZR-1 Corvette. I am even more confused now :dontknow:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subcategory_Clutch-Parts_-49997411_-49997327

[billybaloneey]

It says in several places those Advance Auto parts are for 1991 ZR-1 Corvette. I am even more confused now :dontknow:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/subcategory_Clutch-Parts_-49997411_-49997327

The Advanced Auto Parts web site also says that it has automatic transmission parts...among other things...for my '94.

I'm not going to bash them to bad, cause my younger brother just started working for 'em last week. When he used to work for Auto Zone, I got his employee discount for everything I wanted. I'm hoping Advanced has the same employee discount program.

[tomtom72]

I just got some of my order from RockAuto.com, the slave cylinder arrived. Man now I remember why I spent so much cash the last time ordering from my used to be favorite chevy online store. The Delco stuff is DOM type and it now appears that the wagoner & some others are cast. I don't know that the cast slave will bolt up because the mounting flange is so thick vs the DOM flange.

On a more positive note, the Wagoner brand is owned by Federal Mogul! I didn't know that. I may attempt to take this slave apart to see if it's internal parts are like the ones from the last F/M cast slave I got yrs ago. If so then the micro-ridges are a thing of the past on the piston seal....that is at least one less thing to wear out! I still think my issue's root is in the master's piston seal being worn out because of what Bill told me about with regards to the arched travel caused by the spacer not being at the optimal angle.

If I actually get the slave apart I will post up what I discover. I just don't know for sure that I will get to it today.

:cheers:

[Dynomite]

I just got some of my order from RockAuto.com, the slave cylinder arrived. If I actually get the slave apart I will post up what I discover. I just don't know for sure that I will get to it today.

:cheers:

So....this all started in 05' and then you went three years 06' to 09' without issues and then issues in 09' ?

WOW .......yes....let us know if the clutch parts fit and if you take them apart....what you find :cheers:

[Dynomite]

Id look everywhere before I bought anything from thepartsladi again but I do like there guarantee,find a part elsewhere for a cheaper price and we will TRY and beat it.Best price so far for AC Delco is $58 for the master and $80 for the slave but Ive only just now starting looking into this.

I have bought several items from thepartsladi (Water pump, Belt tensioner, Plug wires and so on). Thepartsladi parts seem to be fine so far :thumbsup:

Thepartsladi ships very fast :thumbsup:

[Z51JEFF]

I have bought several items from thepartsladi (Water pump, Belt tensioner, Plug wires and so on). Thepartsladi parts seem to be fine so far :thumbsup:

Thepartsladi ships very fast :thumbsup:
Theres nothing wrong with this place but their prices are pretty steep so Id look elsewhere before Id call them for something.

[Dynomite]

Theres nothing wrong with this place but their prices are pretty steep so Id look elsewhere before Id call them for something.

I only buy from thepartsladi on Ebay ;)

[Z51JEFF]

I only buy from thepartsladi on Ebay ;)

I meant to say I look at other sources before I checkout thepartsladi.O.K. been digging for parts and have come up with the new cast body parts are the good parts but the DOM are the questionable parts.The DOM parts are the OEM parts and might not even be out there anymore.

[Dynomite]

I meant to say I look at other sources before I checkout thepartsladi.O.K. been digging for parts and have come up with the new cast body parts are the good parts but the DOM are the questionable parts.The DOM parts are the OEM parts and might not even be out there anymore.

:thumbsup:
Are you saying you have it figured out and that the new cast parts are good to go? Was that the Slave only or the master and Slave?

Great to know :cheers: keep us posted ;)

One more question for ya.......do you use DOT 4 brake fluid? What do you use for Clutch fluid?

[Z51JEFF]

:thumbsup:
Are you saying you have it figured out and that the new cast parts are good to go? Was that the Slave only or the master and Slave?

Great to know :cheers: keep us posted ;)

One more question for ya.......do you use DOT 4 brake fluid? What do you use for Clutch fluid?

According to Bill B both cast parts are the better of the parts out there and the Wagner parts for the brand.Now with the thicker mounting area with the cast parts longer bolts need to be takin into account.I found a place in town that has the OEM AC Delco parts,just not quite ready to start this job right now,Ill decide which brand when the time comes.The brake fluid can be DOT-3 or DOT-4.My idea for the best and least cramped for the job is to remove fender panel,battery,ECM and bracket and maybe the skirt panel.I dont have alot of room in my garage so I need to make this as easy as possible.As far as the bench bleeding of the master-slave cylinders Bill told me to bench bled the slave cylinder,install,install the master cylinder,fill will fluid and just put enough pressure on the pedal to push it down maybe 1/2 inch.Now Im still not too clear on the amount of fluid in the reservoir,if its full and the slave is full when the pedal is completely depressed that fluid needs to go somewhere,dont want a brake fluid nightmare.I will play this part by ear,maybe 1/4 inch of fluid in the reservoir.This is my plan.

[tomtom72]

Hey Jeff, thanks for the insight from Bill.:thumbsup:

I took my cast slave from wagoner apart last night and it sure is a thing of beauty updated piston seal and the spring ends are dressed nicely, and NO Debris floating around in the bore!:dancing

The only issue is the mounting flange is thicker and I'm not sure the OE studs will show enough threads thru this thicker flange? I also wish I could say that I'll know this weekend, or sometime this week when I get under there to change out the slave...but I can't because this will have to wait for good weather so I can work outside. My guess would be the same as it was back in 05, the flange is too thick for the OE studs to let the nuts catch many threads.

I forgot this Jeff, you will not need to remove anything beyond the gill panel and the battery. You can dismount the ECM and flip it over to the wiper area if you like, I never do that because it's not in the way once the battery is out. The ECM bracket and the rear wheel house liner are also not factors in this r&r. I hear you about no space in which to work and spread things out. The only thing that I found that really helps is a universal joint, various extension lengths or my favorite weapon....a 13mm socket with a u-joint built into it! Once the battery is out you can get a good shot at the bolts on the M/C no sweat. The stock cats on our early exhaust systems get in the way for the slave r&r. The studs are oriented so that the lower stud is at 5 o'clock and the upper is at 11 o'clock. The upper is bad with the OE cat as I used about 2' worth of extensions to get behind the cat and next to the trans tunnel mid section. That I found gave the straightest shot to get on the top nut. Undo the lines before loosening any of the hold down nuts and bolts. I'm telling you that after it done you will say the worst part of the job was the hush panel and that stupid clip on the pedal!

On the bleed out, listen to Bill. Please no full pedal stokes. You don't want to bottom out the pistons in their bores just like when you do brakes. If you had a spare line I'd say to use the old master to charge up the new slave before install, in your case. I saved my 90 line so I use it to charge up both on my bench. If you have a phoenix bleeder tool you can use it to do the bench bleed on both before install. I can mail you mine if you prefer? I only use it for the clutch hydraulics and it has only had GM clutch fluid ran thru it. I have a small stock pile of the GM stuff. I bought it back in the days when brake fluid was not the first choice in the system as a fluid. It is a sweet tool and it will charge up the system from bone dry perfectly as it is a reverse bleed from the slave up to the master.

:cheers:
Tom

[Z51JEFF]

Tom and everybody,thanks for the tips.

[tomtom72]

Tom and everybody,thanks for the tips.

Not a problem Jeff! That is what we are all about.:handshak:

Just another fwiw. Not that this isn't obvious, but you can use a small grinder to dress the back side of the mounting ears on the cast slave cylinder so enough threads show for the nuts to grab well. If you grind till the thickness is reduced by 1/2 it looks like it could be good to go. I may find out this weekend if the weather holds to the forecast....it'll be "work outside" nice! In any event I'll post my results.:thumbsup:

:cheers:
Tom

[Dynomite]

Just tell me where I can get a GOOD Master Clutch Cylinder and Clutch Slave Cylinder ;)

The brake fluid can be DOT-3 or DOT-4.

Which do you use for clutch.....DOT-3 or DOT-4. I think DOT-4 is required for brakes....is that correct? :happy1:

DOT 4 has higher temp specs (dry/wet boiling points) that will cut fade chances over DOT 3 if you do HD driving (mountains, trailer pulling, tracking the car), otherwise there is no difference between DOT 3 and DOT 4.

[tomtom72]

Cliff,

The cast units I just bought I bought at RockAuto.com. They were cast types. Now they only list one slave and mine seems to be out of stock. It was a wagoner cast type slave. The only one that they seem to have right now is the DOM type packaged by Dorman.

The master is a wagoner cast type master cylinder, CM120165 = P/N.

:cheers:
Tom

The weather will be nice this weekend so I will have a punch list to do. While I'm at it I will try my best to take pictures of my block numbers and the Oil Pan (?) numbers, or is it the Girdle number(?) I'm looking for?:redface:

[Dynomite]

Cliff,

The cast units I just bought I bought at RockAuto.com. They were cast types. Now they only list one slave and mine seems to be out of stock.
:cheers:
Tom



Id look everywhere before I bought anything from thepartsladi again but I do like there guarantee, I do not know a single vendor (including those on this forum) for which someone at sometime has not had what they call a bad experience :mrgreen: find a part elsewhere for a cheaper price and we will TRY and beat it. Best price so far for AC Delco is $58 for the master and $80 for the slave but Ive only just now starting looking into this.

I like thepartsladi for speed and shipping to my door. I have never had any issues with thepartsladi :thumbsup:

Tom: The Slave shown here on Ebay is a cast version (and for ZR1) and I can only assume it is what you have :dontknow:

The Master shown here is for a C4 (L98) but is the same as that for a ZR1?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400082402981&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400082402981&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350265573292&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350265573292&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT)

Also, I have often wondered beside the obvious engine differences, what are the other differences between a 1990 C4 (L98) and a 1991 ZR1. What is interchangeable?

The clutch slave and master seem to be identical as well as the tops for example. Are the lights/light motors the same and what other parts are interchangeable?

[tomtom72]

Cliff,

Just to clear this is what I believe to be the facts about ZR-1 vs L98/LT1/LT4 hydraulic clutch parts....no difference among the masters. The slaves I think are not different mechanically. The rub seems to be with the ZR-1's bell housing slave cylinder mounting stud length, our studs seem to be shorter vs the other motors. That difference I believe to be the issue in using a cast slave as the studs on a Z's bell housing are not long enough. I have to admit that the issue about the length of the studs is purely guess work on my part. I do know that the hydraulic system is the same on C4's with a zf box.

As to your other Q about what other parts are swappable? I should think anything except for our specific body parts, door skins, rockers, wheel house liners, 1/4 panels, rear bumper, side moldings, backup lights & lic plate frame, transmission input shaft collar & T/O bearing & clutch fork & pivot. That's off the top of my knuckle head...:mrgreen:

:cheers:
Tom

[Z51JEFF]

Thomas,did you ever get these installed?Im going to do this here pretty soon and just might buy the Wagner parts.One question,can the old slave and master...........that just doesnt sound right................be pulled out of the car intact without removing the hose?I dont like the idea of dripping brake fluid.When I get ready to do this Im going to come back and revisit this thread looking for some tips.

[tomtom72]

Hi Jeff, no I never got around to my car....till today, later in the afternoon I'm going to do my punch list. R&R master & slave, and new water pump hose & new serp belt and replace all my screw clamps with the OE clamps on all the cooling hoses, and r&r the plenum cooling hoses, and knock sensor....:neutral:

I've been distracted helping Lou with his Z, and also a lack of motivation on my part to do much on my car.....I guess I'm not liking working "al fresco" too much now a days...:dontknow:....it used to be okay when I was in my 20's...spoiled I guess.

I don't really see how you can get the slave up past the exhaust system, but I could be dead wrong on that. I never thought about it to tell the truth.:o

Usually I just use paper towels to drain the M/C because it ain't much. Break the line and put a cut off water bottle under it & let it drain while I slide under and work on getting the line off at the slave and the nuts off of the slave mounting studs. With the line open @ the M/C, the line & slave drain pretty fast.

If you have a mity-vac you could hook it up to the slave's bleeder and suck all the fluid out from there. I have all these spare bleeders from the old slaves that I use to plug the M/C's line bung and the slave's line bung that I never give it much thought about spilling fluid at either end.

:cheers:
Tom

[Z51JEFF]

I just got the new parts,dissapointed to find out MADE IN CHINA but they look exact as every other cast part Ive seen,had I known these were MADE IN CHINA I would have looked for U.S. made.Ill start on this job this week sometime,Ive got a one car garage so its always a challenge.Anybody want picture of anything?

[GOLDCYLON]

Hmm mine was made in the United Kingdom did you go with a different seller? GC

[Z51JEFF]

Hmm mine was made in the UL did you go with a different seller? GC

The place I buy all my AC Delco parts from sold me these.Im going to start on this in a few days,not looking forward to it.

[Z51JEFF]

Hey Jeff, thanks for the insight from Bill.:thumbsup:

I took my cast slave from wagoner apart last night and it sure is a thing of beauty updated piston seal and the spring ends are dressed nicely, and NO Debris floating around in the bore!:dancing

The only issue is the mounting flange is thicker and I'm not sure the OE studs will show enough threads thru this thicker flange? I also wish I could say that I'll know this weekend, or sometime this week when I get under there to change out the slave...but I can't because this will have to wait for good weather so I can work outside. My guess would be the same as it was back in 05, the flange is too thick for the OE studs to let the nuts catch many threads.

I forgot this Jeff, you will not need to remove anything beyond the gill panel and the battery. You can dismount the ECM and flip it over to the wiper area if you like, I never do that because it's not in the way once the battery is out. The ECM bracket and the rear wheel house liner are also not factors in this r&r. I hear you about no space in which to work and spread things out. The only thing that I found that really helps is a universal joint, various extension lengths or my favorite weapon....a 13mm socket with a u-joint built into it! Once the battery is out you can get a good shot at the bolts on the M/C no sweat. The stock cats on our early exhaust systems get in the way for the slave r&r. The studs are oriented so that the lower stud is at 5 o'clock and the upper is at 11 o'clock. The upper is bad with the OE cat as I used about 2' worth of extensions to get behind the cat and next to the trans tunnel mid section. That I found gave the straightest shot to get on the top nut. Undo the lines before loosening any of the hold down nuts and bolts. I'm telling you that after it done you will say the worst part of the job was the hush panel and that stupid clip on the pedal!

On the bleed out, listen to Bill. Please no full pedal stokes. You don't want to bottom out the pistons in their bores just like when you do brakes. If you had a spare line I'd say to use the old master to charge up the new slave before install, in your case. I saved my 90 line so I use it to charge up both on my bench. If you have a phoenix bleeder tool you can use it to do the bench bleed on both before install. I can mail you mine if you prefer? I only use it for the clutch hydraulics and it has only had GM clutch fluid ran thru it. I have a small stock pile of the GM stuff. I bought it back in the days when brake fluid was not the first choice in the system as a fluid. It is a sweet tool and it will charge up the system from bone dry perfectly as it is a reverse bleed from the slave up to the master.

:cheers:
Tom
I went back and reread all the tips.I started asking some of the people around town for some tips,what a mistake that was.One guy told me to drop the exhaust and then told me once the car is up in the air dont open anything or it will break the body:mad:I think Ill stick to the NET.One thing Ive found in the past is if I dread doing a job Ive yet to do it never seems as bad once Im done.This is my plan for the fluid.I dont want fluid ANYWHERE near the car until Im ready to bleed the system so what Im going to do is crack open the slave bleeder,connect a small hose,put that in a container of fluid and go from there.I know this is as primitive as it gets but it works for me......I hope.Ill post up pictures as I go.That tip about the 2 foot extension is what helped.I got the jacks under the car and just peeked,cant see anything put the cat.

[tomtom72]

Jeff,

Don't worry about not seeing anything by just peeking......you can't!

The slave is kind of above the level of the left CAT. You can't see it unless you are laying under the car looking straight up to the left and ahead ( towards the bell housing lower left side ) of the left CAT.

:cheers:
Tom

Just get the car up high enough for you to get comfy laying on your back and look up at the left side of the bell housing & you will see the slave. You need enough altitude on the jack stands so you can get your arms over your body to work.:thumbsup:

[Z51JEFF]

Ive got the slave replaced,the clip is impossible to get to.Im working in a one car garage and just cant get it with the door partially open so the master cylinder will have to wait.Now Im trying to bleed the system and cant get the pressure to build.Ive filled the reservoir,pumped the peddle,nothing.Im working on it today.

[LGAFF]

if presssure does not build more than likely the rod is not in the pivot of the fork....

[tomtom72]

Exactly right, without the door fully open you will have a heck of a time getting in the right position to get the clip off. Mainly because it's the first time you're doing it. I can do mine by feel as I changed so many M/C's during the Q/Control issues.

Once the hush panel is off, if you feel along the clutch pedal arm till you get to the top. You can feel the connection that the pedal arm's stud has with the push rod on the M/C. Feeling around at that point you will feel the center sprung metal tab on that lock washer. Lift the tab up with a finger and push the M/C's push rod off the stud on the pedal arm.

On the bleed, it took me forever, about 50 short strokes to get anything down to the slave to begin the bleeding of the air out of the slave. Unfortunately it take forever to get the fluid down to an empty slave from a full M/C. You could try to open the bleeder on the slave just to help get the fluid down there faster. Then once it leaks out you close the bleeder and resume the short strokes to actually bleed the system. This is the very reason I bought the Phoenix Injector tool, to cut down on the work to bleed the system.

[tomtom72]

Good call Lee. I had not thought that the slaves push rod didn't make it to the fork!:o


sorry my brain is old & senile. I didn't think to ask, you are using a DOM type slave cylinder, right? They still come with the plastic push rod retainer? The old ones used to come with the rod retracted via a plastic retainer. The idea was that when you got system pressure, the retainer broke and the rod extended into the depression in the fork.

The trouble with that system ( JMHO ) is that unless you take extreme care to make sure that the rod is in the fork right...you have bleeding trouble and other trouble. I used to take the retainer off before the install so I could better feel that the rod made it to the depression on the fork. It was harder to get the nuts started, but the alternative possibilities were to scary to me. You need to push on the slave to get the nuts started by hand but at least you could be sure that the rod was in the fork correctly....because you could actually see it be in the depression when fully extended.

[Z51JEFF]

The slave is the cast design,thought the studs might be too short so I removed them and got some bolts just in case but found the studs will work with the cast design.I double checked the rod for placement and it is in the fork,when bolting down the slave I had to push in onto the studs to start the bolts,spring kept wanting to push the slave back away from the bell housing.What I just tried was connecting a hose placed into some fluid and pump the peddle.It pulls the fluid but wont pull into the slave,Ill put some sealent on the threads to seal against air.I wish I has one of the Phenix bleeders,nobody in town has one and dont have the time to have one shipped. thought the slave cylinder was going to be the pain,that was fairly easy.If I keep have problems Ill have to pull the slave and check the rod but the spring tention tells me its in the fork but I could be wrong.

[Z51JEFF]

Finely got it or I think I did.With all the talk about this Phoenix Bleeder I went out looking for one,no luck but I did have a brain storm.Ive got a Mityvac that I bought a few years ago,dug it out and took a look.Worked like a charm.The peddle still feels a little soft but from what Ive read it should work out.You guys are the best:thumbsup:Heres what Im working with.Think Im a little paranoid when it comes to brake fluid?Just as soon as I got done with the Mityvac out of the garage it went.http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/FLYTYM/DSCN0425.jpghttp://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/FLYTYM/DSCN0424.jpghttp://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a136/FLYTYM/DSCN0420.jpg