Weird... car dies and won't even crank. Then starts like nothing happened.

[TFENT]

Morning gentleman…

Got a new one for you to ponder with me. As I do almost weekly when the weather is nice as it was this weekend I take the beast out for a cruise. So last night I am pulling into a driveway with my right turn signal on and the dash starts freaking out, head lights start flashing on and off, and it just dies…

I was on the phone at the time and thought for a brief moment I stalled it out from choosing the wrong gear but then reality hit me. I turned the key over and nothing… everything else was functioning as normal. Gauges, lights, flashers, signals, instruments, radio, ect. All working normal, it just wouldn’t even crank. I popped open the hood to inspect the new battery and no loose cables, all was fine. Tried the key again, still nada. I sat there pissed off for 5-10 mins and was just about to call a tow truck and tried it one more time. Spun right up like nothing happened at all. Drove it around the block, no problem. Parked it for an hour then drove 30 miles home. No problem.

What just happened???

[TFENT]

It thought you were stealing it :sign10:

This will be a good one for sure....I shall watch closely :happy1:

Truth be told... I drove it like it was stolen ;)

[jonszr1]

almost the same thing happened to me , with the exception of the lights flashing etc. you might want to check the little pill on your key, on my car that little pill lost its abality to work . it could also be dirty . i ended up getting 2 new keys made and allways keep 2 ignition keys on my key ring just in case .hope this helps

[TFENT]

almost the same thing happened to me , with the exception of the lights flashing etc. you might want to check the little pill on your key, on my car that little pill lost its abality to work . it could also be dirty . i ended up getting 2 new keys made and allways keep 2 ignition keys on my key ring just in case .hope this helps

New key. less then 1000 miles old. :)

[Ccmano]

Check the obvious stuff first. If the whole dash was blinking in and out, it sounds like an electrical supply, main connector or ground issue. Check the battery connections and grounds first. Sounds to me like a ground or the main harness connector through the firewall.
H

[XfireZ51]

Check the obvious stuff first. If the whole dash was blinking in and out, it sounds like an electrical supply, main connector or ground issue. Check the battery connections and grounds first. Sounds to me like a ground or the main harness connector through the firewall.
H


:iamwithst Altho Hans is not stupid. Wish we'd get a better emoticon.

[bobbyhi]

My first thought was a ground issue but why would it start after sitting for awhile? Same thing with the wiring harness. Why not the coils are over heating?? But that normally doesn't shut the engine down. Even though the keys are new the whole ignition switch in the steering column could be shot. Just replaced that in the Caddy last week....:dontknow:

[rhipsher]

Chances are you need a new starter. Mine started pulling that crap and I put a new starter in and it never happened again.

[TFENT]

Chances are you need a new starter. Mine started pulling that crap and I put a new starter in and it never happened again.


You had the same symptoms??

[tccrab]

Dumb question, but when you pulled into the driveway, was there a bump or a curb that you had to go over?
My WAG (Wild Azzed Guess) would be flexing of the frame could have put extra tension on some wiring or connector and momentarily interrupted a important ground or caused a plug to wiggle slightly in a socket.
If the headlights went on and off then it's probably something to do with the battery cables or a ground.

I'm thinking that this one will be tough nut to crack, I wish you the best of luck.

TomC
"Crabs"

[TFENT]

Dumb question, but when you pulled into the driveway, was there a bump or a curb that you had to go over?
My WAG (Wild Azzed Guess) would be flexing of the frame could have put extra tension on some wiring or connector and momentarily interrupted a important ground or caused a plug to wiggle slightly in a socket.
If the headlights went on and off then it's probably something to do with the battery cables or a ground.

I'm thinking that this one will be tough nut to crack, I wish you the best of luck.

TomC
"Crabs"

Nope died about 15 feet from the driveway. Was slowing down and downshifted with the phone in my hand when it died and gauges started to freak out. The LCD display was displaying different wording the usual. The speed numbers were circling and the instant mpg were circling. It was really weird to say the least.

[GOLDCYLON]

My Guess WAG Wink Wink would be an internal short in your "NEW" Battery. Id pull it take it to the autoparts store and see what happens after a load test.

[TFENT]

My Guess WAG Wink Wink would be an internal short in your "NEW" Battery. Id pull it take it to the autoparts store and see what happens after a load test.

ok that might explain why when all lights are on with A/C and I am at a stoplight with turn signal on and alt is at lowest output the voltage gauge moves with the beat of the flasher towards VERY low voltage... maybe??

[GOLDCYLON]

ok that might explain why when all lights are on with A/C and I am at a stoplight with turn signal on and alt is at lowest output the voltage gauge moves with the beat of the flasher towards VERY low voltage... maybe??

Yes and/or a crapping out internal voltage regulator inside the Alternator. Again as the boyz stated above a bad cable can cause all this havoc as well. When you pull the battery so can inspect the cables as well. Is this a top and side post style battery? If both make sure the positive battery post is not hitting the under side of the Cruise Control servo bracket.

[TFENT]

Yes and/or a crapping out internal voltage regulator inside the Alternator. Again as the boyz stated above a bad cable can cause all this havoc as well. When you pull the battery so can inspect the cables as well. Is this a top and side post style battery? If both make sure the positive battery post is not hitting the under side of the Cruise Control servo bracket.

Side post battery. No interference noted.

Will inspect cables again.

[Dynomite]

ok that might explain why when all lights are on with A/C and I am at a stoplight with turn signal on and alt is at lowest output the voltage gauge moves with the beat of the flasher towards VERY low voltage... maybe??

If that ever happens to me (200 amp new alternator) I am in real trouble :sign10:

This is however a BIG clue :thumbsup:

[TFENT]

If that ever happens to me (200 amp new alternator) I am in real trouble :sign10:

This is however a BIG clue :thumbsup:

Dynomite:

does ur gauge move at all with a load on the system at an idle?

[Dynomite]

Dynomite:

does ur gauge move at all with a load on the system at an idle?

My engine parts are all over the garage floor and my new alternator is not installed yet....but I do not think (with stock alternator) it did before I took the engine all apart :thumbsup:
I would go out right now and check that for ya if I could.

If your idle speed is very low...yes it might do that with everything on.

[TFENT]

My engine parts are all over the garage floor and my new alternator is not installed yet....but I do not think (with stock alternator) it did before I took the engine all apart :thumbsup:

If your idle speed is very low...yes it might do that with everything on.


LOL, roger that !

[TFENT]

What has me puzzled is your lights were flashing on and off like an anti-theft program. I assume it was a regular beat on and off?

Or if not....GOLDCYLON I think is on to something :thumbsup:


He is on to something because my lights are HID's. So under really low voltage they will start to flash/blink. It happened once before when i had a vacuum line from the MAP sensor come loose and it was running horribly. Lights would flash with a lowwww idle. But why would the starter not engage for 10 mins, then start right up like there was no issue?

I am thinking alternator/starter going at the same time.

Had a starter issue earlier this year. Just both symptoms showed up at one time last night.

[TFENT]

Ha.....a starter issue in a ZR1 is not good as you know the work involved in replacing a starter. Having said that.....low voltage might effect a starter solenoid more when it is hot than when it cools off a bit as you were running the engine for some time before this happened :thumbsup:


Well the intake has to come off to do the Alternator too, so kill 2 birds with one stone heh?

[-=Jeff=-]

Well the intake has to come off to do the Alternator too, so kill 2 birds with one stone heh?

Actually I think the Alt can be done without pulling the plenum

I need to replace my Alt as well.. but I plan on trying to r&r without pulling the plenum

[Dynomite]

If it started back up like nothing happened meaning it turned over like a full battery with full voltage.......that would suggest battery and alternator are in good shape....it would also suggest starter is in good shape as it is usually solenoids that go on starters.......which can be intermittent problems.

And from this it was a zero ground or a dead short somewhere that killed the engine as others have suggested. Then it prolly did not start again untill the location where it was shorted cooled down.....:D I am not sure how a poor ground would reactivate itself. If it were just battery cables, seems to me it would run on the alternator. If it did not restart...seems to me it could be battery cables......and on and on.....

As I recall......there might be a delay of 10 minutes on starting after several failed attempts as an anti theft measure...but am not sure.

You and all others reading this can tell I am guessing :sign10:

This guy (WB9MCW) knows what he is talking about :thumbsup:
http://www.zr1netregistry.com/forum/showthread.php?t=593&highlight=anti+theft+starting

:iamwithst meaning Dynomite :sign10:

[TFENT]

If it started back up like nothing happened meaning it turned over like a full battery with full voltage.......that would suggest battery and alternator are in good shape....it would also suggest starter is in good shape as it is usually solenoids that go on starters.......which can be intermittent problems.

And from this it was a zero ground or a dead short somewhere that killed the engine as others have suggested. Then it prolly did not start again untill the location where it was shorted cooled down.....:D I am not sure how a poor ground would reactivate itself. If it were just battery cables, seems to me it would run on the alternator. If it did not restart...seems to me it could be battery cables......and on and on.....

As I recall......there might be a delay of 10 minutes on starting after several failed attempts as an anti theft measure...but am not sure.

You and all others reading this can tell I am guessing :sign10:

This guy (WB9MCW) knows what he is talking about :thumbsup:
http://www.zr1netregistry.com/forum/showthread.php?t=593&highlight=anti+theft+starting

:iamwithst meaning Dynomite :sign10:

I am really curious about this 10 min delay security thing.

[GOLDCYLON]

Actually I think the Alt can be done without pulling the plenum

100% correct, need to pull the Air cleaner and Air Horn from the TB although. But the Plenium does not need to be pulled

[GOLDCYLON]

I am really curious about this 10 min delay security thing.


Not sure if thats it because the Security light flashing would be all the time. VATS can be bypassed although if you know which key code you have.

[tomtom72]

I am really curious about this 10 min delay security thing.

I think with the VATS system, if a start attempt is made and the CCM does not see the proper pre-programed resistance ( our key pellet ) the system shuts off the fuel pumps for a time period ( not sure how long ). I also understand that any further attempts at starting without the proper pellet will just extend the "no fuel" time period. I think this spoils any attempts to "hot wire" the car? I'm not exactly sure about the last statement, but it seems logical to me?:redface:

Anyway, once the VATS is engaged, the only way to defeat it is to have the right key+pellet; or wait the 10 mins to try to start the car using what method I have no idea, maybe by-passing the VATS entirely? I guess I'd better keep my day job as I would starve as a car thief!:o

FWIW The dash being scrambled + the lights flashing sure sounds like an electrical supply issue ( or a ground issue ) to me. My dash did that when my battery was stone discharged ( I cooked it up & all was fine again )...total jibberish on the LCD + security light flashed. I assume that the power block just aft of the battery has good connections? I suppose if the clutch switch over heats would it mimic a bad connection like a short ( lights flashing & LCD scrambled? ), but that would only apply to starting the car. I think once running, the clutch sw is out of the circuit? We have fuseable links, but can they become intermittent under load? The thing that bothers me is the described volt gauge behavior, it sure sounds like the regulator is maybe going down...not failed totally, but going. That maybe a separate issue though. You can measure the output at the alt terminal with a VOM as you use different systems.

:o Sorry, I'm not much help. I hate electrical issues!
:cheers:
Tom

[ShawnZR-1]

You've got a bad ground. Check the cable from the battery to the frame/block.

[Ccmano]

You've got a bad ground. Check the cable from the battery to the frame/block.

:iamwithstAnd that doesn't mean just check if it's loose. Remove the cable and check for corrosion under the contact area on both ends, including the battery.
H
:cheers:

[SharkPilot]

Years ago I had a strange problem with my '69. At idle the engine would stumble a little just as the headlights and dash lights flickered. This only happened at night and at idle speed and was very intermittant. What I eventually found was some corrosion under a TIGHT ground connection at the battery. This was a side terminal battery behind the seat as all Sharks are.
Once I cleaned the contacts and reattached the cable all was well.
What I deduced from the experience was, the alternator handled all of the electrical loads just fine at higher RPM but once the engine got back to idle speed the alternator couldn't keep up with the demand if the negative cable lost its connection. Once that happened the engine would stumble and lights would flicker. The car never had a start up problem. The engine would crank and start just fine every time.
That car had no electronics or fuel injection at the time so it was much simpler. I would speculate that any interruption in the voltage with our electronicly controlled cars would cause a bit more havoc. Your lights flickering and the dash going crazy are good clues. Perhaps the voltage problem affected the VATS like others have suggested and disabled the car for 10 minutes.
Since your problem happened at or near idle, with the alternator turning its slowest, I would go after a battery connection.
Your low voltage at idle with the turn signals on also suggests a battery connection.

I hope all of this helps a bit and I'll be watching this thread to see what you find.
All the best, SharkPilot

[TFENT]

The car is scheduled to go into the stereo shop for a complete rewire of the battery cables. New cables and cleaning of the contact points. Then we will see how it responds.

Thank you all for the quick and informative responses.