ZR-1s in this Economy

[xlr8nflorida]

I posted this on CF as well.

I recently read this months corvette magazines. There were many articles about the 2009 ZR-1 as well as the 90-95 ZR-1's.

The article went on to talk about future collectibility of both the 2009 ZR-1 as well as the 1990-1995 models. Several experts on the panel were interviewed and gave their opinion as well as commenting on the first ZR-1s from 1970-1972. This panel happened to be printed in Sportcars Market Magazine.

I will hold my opinion because I'm not wanting the thread to become a debate. I just want everyones personal opinion and their reasoning behind their opinion. Typically the way BB62 responds to threads.

Now that being said, I don't think many of the current ZR-1 owners think they will make alot of $ on Zr-1's. Perhaps some of the original owners felt they would, just like some of the 2009 owners now. The thread is also not about drive the wheels off the car or garage queen.

Is the ZR-1 a long term hold? I feel its the most undervalued at this point in time. I just read a comment from a forum member the other day that the 94/95 values will plummet similar to some of the 90's.

I feel its a great model to enjoy and drive and hold onto and if you have the $, I think the ZR-1 will be the next car to have because quite frankly in my opinion its not going to be 73-89.
I'm looking of adding another ZR-1 to the stable and I am definetly going sell my 93 and maybe my C5. Do you feel values will continue to plummet?

Personally, I think the values are really low mainly on the Distress sales and "Rougher" cars.

In my opinion in this market, it still takes $20,000 to get something really really nice - IE showroom.

Opinion on low color production, years to have, ie 93 ruby, 94/95 Dunn Heads etc?

That being said, The ZR-1 was picked as the car to get in this current economy by I think Corvette Fever.

[ZRWON]

Consider this for projected value of buying a $20K well cared for ZR-1 in the current market. Your decision is to keep your $20K cash or complete the deal and buy it.
In three years it'll take $26K to buy that same $20K ZR-1. WHY? Because at the rate the Gov. is printing unsupported dollars every month it'll take 30% more dollars to purchase what you can buy today if the next three years follow the trends of the past year, and with the ever increasing US debt projections my 30% is probably understated & my grand children and their children can't afford to still be paying off! Think of how much you are paying for milk, berad, meat, clothes, car parts, etc today vs what they cost 2 years ago...that's our future unless things change fast.
:mad: :censored::pray:???:

[scholtmj]

My 2 cents

There are too many sub 5k mile cars for ZR-1's to reach the potential most people think they will be worth. In terms of collectability, rare color combinations will trump low mileage.

How many ZR1s will be built? That's the knock on Z06 collector value, too many built.

Time will tell.

[Z51JEFF]

As far as the C6 goes its a new car that can be bought now so its not even something to think about,not now anyway.With the way Corvettes pick up in value the C4 is next on the list to move up.Just look at the prices for low mileage 80-82s.Before I bought my car I thought about a 1980 L-82 with 4,000 miles.Price was $22,000.It only makes sense when people start looking at the desirable C4s the ZR-1 is the first to come to mind.Its just a matter of time.One benefit of the value going up is all the yahoos in the market for a Corvette wont have to decide between a ZR-1 or a C5.In the past if you wanted a ZR-1,that was the Corvette you wanted and you paid the price.Now the car is in the same price range of just about any C5 and maybe some C6s.Im not in the market to sell my car anytime soon but when I am a Midyear Coupe is my next Corvette.Prices for ZR-1 can only go up.Ive followed prices for these cars from the start.$30,000 seemed to be the average price for low mileage 90-91s for awhile now the price is anybodys guess.People right now that are picking up nice cars are in the right spot for the time being.

[flyin ryan]

I've been saying/thinking this for a while now...Wait until our cars hit 20 years then see what happens, not fair to expect anything good to happen until then, going off history & you know what they say...'History repeats itself'. People that bought ZR-1's or ZR1's & expected or think they had the world by the tail & would make a killing after 4-5-6-7 years etc., that was plain foolishness on their part, IMO. 20 years for our cars in a couple months :pray. Not saying for sure something will happen but, myself, not expecting our cars to rise at all until 'At Least' the 20 year mark. Then the fun will start. We'll see :happy1:.

[tomtom72]

Okay, my two cents worth.....

I started with a 72 LT-1 factory air coupe back in 77. Yea, I know and no I don't still have the car. It was a track rat though & I had to put it back together as it was raced for two seasons by it's original owner. Not many people ordered the LT-1 as I think they made around 5k+ cars for three yrs. The ones with the ZR1 option are scarce as hens teeth as their numbers are low double digits each yr. I guess my point is that by now there just ain't too many of them left, and the number that are intact may be fairly low. That has got to help whatever value growth that they get. I know mine was a bastardized car back in 77, the local NCRS guys would have had a field day with the red marker on my car,:redface: but I had a great time with her as I made her into a ZR1 LT-1 w A/C and side pipes!:dancing I was young, forgive me!

Our ZR-1's on the other hand, well JMHO, but 6k cars even spread over six model yrs is not exactly scarce? The last 3 yrs are for sure limited as are the dunn head cars. Again JMHO, but that's where the future money is, with the 448'ers & the rare colors and the LSV type cars. I do not believe that our ZR-1's as a family have had much attrition and that plays into "Are there many left" question. I think scarcity breads appreciation again JMHO. Yea, I know I remember R&T saying "the first in a series and the last in a series"...but I think they were talking about cars numbered in the hundreds, not thousands. Not to disagree with Ryan, but I can't see the 20th yr for the 90's @ 3k+ numbers meaning anything as I do believe that 90% of the 90's are still functioning cars?

Okay, I use the fact that the C4's production numbers were huge in vette-speak and we are about <5% of the production? That makes me feel good. Oh, one other "negative", a cam in block is the norm, our cars are freaks of nature for American cars and I think that has something to do with the perception of our cars? I just think that it may take another 10 to 20 yrs before a ZR-1 = a C2 BB car, if that ever happens?

The new ZR1 would appear to be a fair bet, JMHO. If GM sticks to the low production schedule. GM will have thrown in scarcity as standard equipment to help the cause 20 yrs down the road. I figure it has to be like the Ford GT, no? Plus it's a conventional motor so no one is afraid of the lump.

Oh, this is also JMHO. On our cars I consider this to be a huge plus from the "having your cake and eating it too" vein. We can mod our cars and practically no one would know the difference....I mean the motor doesn't announce it has been P&P'ed! I consider that an advantage if you really use your Z. Okay, so I guess I'm bearing false witness, " yea, sure, bone stock motor, well except for the headers. You know the cats were always prone to failure so that's a P/M thing."..:neutral:..but no motor parts were swapped for aftermarket parts!

Disclaimer: I can't afford to collect rare cars, so my views are skewed. I'm just lucky that I stumbled onto owning a ZR-1!:mrgreen:

[secondchance]

Okay, my two cents worth.....

I started with a 72 LT-1 factory air coupe back in 77. Yea, I know and no I don't still have the car. It was a track rat though & I had to put it back together as it was raced for two seasons by it's original owner. Not many people ordered the LT-1 as I think they made around 5k+ cars for three yrs. The ones with the ZR1 option are scarce as hens teeth as their numbers are low double digits each yr. I guess my point is that by now there just ain't too many of them left, and the number that are intact may be fairly low. That has got to help whatever value growth that they get. I know mine was a bastardized car back in 77, the local NCRS guys would have had a field day with the red marker on my car,:redface: but I had a great time with her as I made her into a ZR1 LT-1 w A/C and side pipes!:dancing I was young, forgive me!

Our ZR-1's on the other hand, well JMHO, but 6k cars even spread over six model yrs is not exactly scarce? The last 3 yrs are for sure limited as are the dunn head cars. Again JMHO, but that's where the future money is, with the 448'ers & the rare colors and the LSV type cars. I do not believe that our ZR-1's as a family have had much attrition and that plays into "Are there many left" question. I think scarcity breads appreciation again JMHO. Yea, I know I remember R&T saying "the first in a series and the last in a series"...but I think they were talking about cars numbered in the hundreds, not thousands. Not to disagree with Ryan, but I can't see the 20th yr for the 90's @ 3k+ numbers meaning anything as I do believe that 90% of the 90's are still functioning cars?

Okay, I use the fact that the C4's production numbers were huge in vette-speak and we are about <5% of the production? That makes me feel good. Oh, one other "negative", a cam in block is the norm, our cars are freaks of nature for American cars and I think that has something to do with the perception of our cars? I just think that it may take another 10 to 20 yrs before a ZR-1 = a C2 BB car, if that ever happens?

The new ZR1 would appear to be a fair bet, JMHO. If GM sticks to the low production schedule. GM will have thrown in scarcity as standard equipment to help the cause 20 yrs down the road. I figure it has to be like the Ford GT, no? Plus it's a conventional motor so no one is afraid of the lump.

Oh, this is also JMHO. On our cars I consider this to be a huge plus from the "having your cake and eating it too" vein. We can mod our cars and practically no one would know the difference....I mean the motor doesn't announce it has been P&P'ed! I consider that an advantage if you really use your Z. Okay, so I guess I'm bearing false witness, " yea, sure, bone stock motor, well except for the headers. You know the cats were always prone to failure so that's a P/M thing."..:neutral:..but no motor parts were swapped for aftermarket parts!

Disclaimer: I can't afford to collect rare cars, so my views are skewed. I'm just lucky that I stumbled onto owning a ZR-1!:mrgreen:

Right on!
In a way, the fact that I never looked at ZR-1s as collectible (just my perspective and not saying it's not a collectible) is what allowed me to truly enjoy the car for many years.
My current one, I bought back in 2000 for $35,000 after 9 years and 83,000 miles later probably is still worth what? 16,000 to 17,000? Not bad considering how much fun I had with the car and it cost next to nothing maintaining it. Had I bought a new Camaro back in 2000 or, worse yet, had I bought a new Caddy or even a BMW, I wonder what the depreciation would have been...:mrgreen:

[flyin ryan]

Okay, my two cents worth.....

I started with a 72 LT-1 factory air coupe back in 77. Yea, I know and no I don't still have the car. It was a track rat though & I had to put it back together as it was raced for two seasons by it's original owner. Not many people ordered the LT-1 as I think they made around 5k+ cars for three yrs. The ones with the ZR1 option are scarce as hens teeth as their numbers are low double digits each yr. I guess my point is that by now there just ain't too many of them left, and the number that are intact may be fairly low. That has got to help whatever value growth that they get. I know mine was a bastardized car back in 77, the local NCRS guys would have had a field day with the red marker on my car,but I had a great time with her as I made her into a ZR1 LT-1 w A/C and side pipes! I was young, forgive me!

Our ZR-1's on the other hand, well JMHO, but 6k cars even spread over six model yrs is not exactly scarce? The last 3 yrs are for sure limited as are the dunn head cars. Again JMHO, but that's where the future money is, with the 448'ers & the rare colors and the LSV type cars. I do not believe that our ZR-1's as a family have had much attrition and that plays into "Are there many left" question. I think scarcity breads appreciation again JMHO. Yea, I know I remember R&T saying "the first in a series and the last in a series"...but I think they were talking about cars numbered in the hundreds, not thousands. Not to disagree with Ryan, but I can't see the 20th yr for the 90's @ 3k+ numbers meaning anything as I do believe that 90% of the 90's are still functioning cars?

Okay, I use the fact that the C4's production numbers were huge in vette-speak and we are about <5% of the production? That makes me feel good. Oh, one other "negative", a cam in block is the norm, our cars are freaks of nature for American cars and I think that has something to do with the perception of our cars? I just think that it may take another 10 to 20 yrs before a ZR-1 = a C2 BB car, if that ever happens?

The new ZR1 would appear to be a fair bet, JMHO. If GM sticks to the low production schedule. GM will have thrown in scarcity as standard equipment to help the cause 20 yrs down the road. I figure it has to be like the Ford GT, no? Plus it's a conventional motor so no one is afraid of the lump.

Oh, this is also JMHO. On our cars I consider this to be a huge plus from the "having your cake and eating it too" vein. We can mod our cars and practically no one would know the difference....I mean the motor doesn't announce it has been P&P'ed! I consider that an advantage if you really use your Z. Okay, so I guess I'm bearing false witness, " yea, sure, bone stock motor, well except for the headers. You know the cats were always prone to failure so that's a P/M thing."..:neutral:..but no motor parts were swapped for aftermarket parts!

Disclaimer: I can't afford to collect rare cars, so my views are skewed. I'm just lucky that I stumbled onto owning a ZR-1!:mrgreen:Good post :). For the record when i was talking '20' years, wasn't specifically targeting the 90's per sa', although I can see how some of you may have gotten that assumtion, maybe my fault...sorry :neutral:. What I meant by it was that I'm not expecting anything to happen with 'Our' cars, 90-95's', until the first batch of them hits 20 years... after that something 'May' happen regarding a market switch....slowly. We're all just guessing at this point anyways....makes for interesting intellectual intercoarse though :). Obviously agree with those regarding the '405' cars, lower production colors & Dunn head cars. That proves I'm not a collector with my 'Red' cars...LOL!

[tomtom72]

Ryan, It was not my intention to have you defend your "20 yr" point at all. I do believe that you were talking about the 20 yr mark as a starting point "if" something was going to happen.:thumbsup:

I just felt that there are too darn many of the 90's for that to mean anything to anyone except those of us that actually own a ZR-1.:mrgreen:

:o I know I kind of puff up when someone asks me "Is that a real ZR-1!? What year is it? Man, it sure looks great for a 20 yr old car! I've never actually seen one of these cars! Can I see the motor?"

You and the rest of us will have the cars with the "patina", or at least I will have one with "patina"......:sign10:

:cheers:
Tom

[flyin ryan]

Ryan, It was not my intention to have you defend your "20 yr" point at all. I do believe that you were talking about the 20 yr mark as a starting point "if" something was going to happen.:thumbsup:

I just felt that there are too darn many of the 90's for that to mean anything to anyone except those of us that actually own a ZR-1.

I know I kind of puff up when someone asks me "Is that a real ZR-1!? What year is it? Man, it sure looks great for a 20 yr old car! I've never actually seen one of these cars! Can I see the motor?"

You and the rest of us will have the cars with the "patina", or at least I will have one with "patina"......:sign10:

:cheers:
TomYup, no problem I understand. Just sometimes things don't come across on here as intended, ya' know? Just wanted to try & be understood :cheers:. Heck I've had people not understand me standing face to face with me, LOL. I agree 100% with you, 90's '&' 91's for that matter will be very iffy when the time comes. 92's have the low numbers but the 375 HP engine, so 93-95's are the obvious ones to rise. Will be fun to sit back & watch it unfold. Don't matter to me, I like em' all for one reason or another :mrgreen:.

[rhipsher]

I've been saying/thinking this for a while now...Wait until our cars hit 20 years then see what happens, not fair to expect anything good to happen until then, going off history & you know what they say...'History repeats itself'. People that bought ZR-1's or ZR1's & expected or think they had the world by the tail & would make a killing after 4-5-6-7 years etc., that was plain foolishness on their part, IMO. 20 years for our cars in a couple months :pray. Not saying for sure something will happen but, myself, not expecting our cars to rise at all until 'At Least' the 20 year mark. Then the fun will start. We'll see :happy1:.SHhhh! Ryan don't jinks me. I'd like to buy another one at these great low prices before the prices go up.:mrgreen:

[tomtom72]

:handshak: Thanks Ryan for understanding what I was trying to say, and for understanding that I was not trying to be an A-hole towards you! I hear ya about speaking directly to people and not being understood!

This just occurred to me, and all of this is JMHO. In this economy, or any bad downturn, collectible cars do take a hit. I mean I watched the B-J auctions in 08 and the prices for even "real" collectibles were down, right?

Does any one know how many AC cobras they made? Okay bad example. How about how many C2 BB vettes? I don't know but from 65 thru 69 there can't have been more than 6k cars, right? That spans two generations. More importantly do we know how many numbers cars are left? Oh, not to be obtuse, remember that the VIN didn't tell you what motor till 72. We will not have much difficulty being numbers cars.

C4 ZR-1's will either have to have serious attrition, or be recognized for the "C-change" in motor thinking that they caused....no pun intended;)....in the std push rod V8 at GM. Look at all the stuff that the LT5 spawned in the LSx series, no? I feel that those facts are our strongest claim on becoming a collector car? It can't be rarity, right, so it has to be uniqueness? The issue as I see it is that no one actually knows enough about an LT5 for the pirated innovations to be a factor making the LT5 unique. No one knows what a monumental task it is to do R&D, proto-typing, and performance verification and certification of a new motor, and do all of that at the same time! Just for a little context. Ford was doing a clean sheet of paper on their OHC motors, "the modular motor", almost at the same time and when did that one come to completion, and at what cost? I believe 93?

I think that right now our cars are not really that bad off as even a rough ZR-1 is at least 50% higher in price than the equivalent regular C4. That isn't too bad of a price unless you remember that when new the car was double the price of it's standard counterpart. I think that we wish our cars were at their respective original sticker prices, as we feel that is their rightful place. I just don't think that is realistic. I think we are right around where you could realistically expect our used cars to be in a bad market. When the economic situation gets well, we should see an upward movement. I still don't see that upward movement being on the scale of any benchmark collectibles.

JMHO
:cheers:
Tom

[flyin ryan]

Look at all the stuff that the LT5 spawned in the LSx series, no? I feel that those facts are our strongest claim on becoming a collector car? It can't be rarity, right, so it has to be uniqueness? The issue as I see it is that no one actually knows enough about an LT5 for the pirated innovations to be a factor making the LT5 unique. No one knows what a monumental task it is to do R&D, proto-typing, and performance verification and certification of a new motor, and do all of that at the same time! Yup...your right.

[bb62]

How about how many C2 BB vettes? I don't know but from 65 thru 69 there can't have been more than 6k cars, right?


There were a lot more than 6K big block Corvettes from 65 to 69 – more like 50K

1965 – 2,157 425HP
1966 – 5,116 390HP
1966 – 5,258 425HP
1967 – 3,832 390HP
1967 – 2,101 400HP
1967 – 3,738 435HP
1967 – 16 435HP (AL heads)
1967 – 20 430HP (L88)
1968 – 7,717 390HP
1968 – 1,932 400HP
1968 – 2,274 435HP
1968 – 624 435HP (Al heads)
1968 – 80 430HP (L88)
1969 – 10,531 390HP
1969 – 2,072 400HP
1969 – 2,332 435HP
1969 – 390 435HP (Al heads)
1969 – 116 430HP (L88)
1969 – 2 430HP (Al block ZL1)

Total – 50,308 BBs from 65-69

And to top it off, from 70 to 74 they made another 21,577 big block Corvettes.

[xlr8nflorida]

Good talking to ya last night.

Thanks for taking the time out of your day.

[tomtom72]

Okay, so much for my knowledge of BB corvettes!:o

Thanks bb62! :worship:
Then my next Q's would be: Why, if there were that many, are these things worth so much? Not many survived intact, right?

Just some musing's on my part:
I would guess that market perception makes up more of the value than simply hard numbers of cars left intact? If that is the case, then our ZR-1's may be destined to become just an unusual footnote in the lineage of the corvette to the "market at large"? That makes me a bit sad because, JMHO, our cars signify an inflection point in the lineage, No? How much longer would it have taken to get to the LSx series motors if the LT5's did not exist?

:cheers:
Tom

[ZRWON]

:thumbsup:Okay, so much for my knowledge of BB corvettes!:o
Thanks bb62! :worship:
Then my next Q's would be: Why, if there were that many, are these things worth so much? Not many survived intact, right?
Just some musing's on my part:
I would guess that market perception makes up more of the value than simply hard numbers of cars left intact? If that is the case, then our ZR-1's may be destined to become just an unusual footnote in the lineage of the corvette to the "market at large"? That makes me a bit sad because, JMHO, our cars signify an inflection point in the lineage, No? How much longer would it have taken to get to the LSx series motors if the LT5's did not exist?:cheers:Tom
If you ask those questions to the NCRS folks or the mechanics who specialized in working on Vettes over the past 30+ years they'd tell you there are/were more BB Vettes around than the production figures bb62 listed. Even to this day you'll find "claimed to be" original collector BB Vettes with truck motors etc in them. IMHO, it's "caveat emptor" when it comes to shopping for an old BB Vette :thumbsup:

[bb62]

Okay, so much for my knowledge of BB corvettes!:o

Thanks bb62! :worship:
Then my next Q's would be: Why, if there were that many, are these things worth so much? Not many survived intact, right?

Just some musing's on my part:
I would guess that market perception makes up more of the value than simply hard numbers of cars left intact? If that is the case, then our ZR-1's may be destined to become just an unusual footnote in the lineage of the corvette to the "market at large"? That makes me a bit sad because, JMHO, our cars signify an inflection point in the lineage, No? How much longer would it have taken to get to the LSx series motors if the LT5's did not exist?

:cheers:
Tom

Tom, You are right. Not many survived. These cars were raced, modified, had blown engines, were abused, were crashed, and used up. The ones that do survive (especially in unrestored form) are special. The difference between the perception of the big block age and the ZR-1s is that the BBs were the pinnacle of their age. The ZR-1 is "just" considered the re-awakening of serious performance for the Corvette.

:thumbsup:
If you ask those questions to the NCRS folks or the mechanics who specialized in working on Vettes over the past 30+ years they'd tell you there are/were more BB Vettes around than the production figures bb62 listed. Even to this day you'll find "claimed to be" original collector BB Vettes with truck motors etc in them. IMHO, it's "caveat emptor" when it comes to shopping for an old BB Vette :thumbsup:

The first sentence is definitely not true. There certainly are not 50K BB 65-69 Corvettes out there. Many of these cars were thrashed and destroyed back in the day. Imagine all that torque on skinny tires for cars that were used in everyday traffic for the life of the vehicle. Unlike the ZR-1, there were very few cars put away as "investments", they were used - which is why the low mileage cars are so rare.

Quite frankly, most of the good cars out there are known. The fakes are also generally known as well (so you second sentence is true - one does need to be careful). Two years ago at Barrett-Jackson there were 3 or 4 67 435HP cars. All were fakes - but the point is it was easy to determine. There are about 15 67 435HP cars that are unrestored and in top flight condition (of the 3700 or so produced). But there are certainly not 3700 67 435 HP cars out there - never mind all the rest of the BB C2 and C3s.

[bb62]

Good talking to ya last night.

Thanks for taking the time out of your day.

Anytime.

[tomtom72]

Thank you again bb62 for the insight. :thumbsup:
I guess I should make clear that I was not insinuating that those bb C2 & C3's should not be valuable because of the initial production numbers. I just re-read my post and to me it sounds like "sour grapes" on my part as a "disgruntled" ZR-1 owner whining about how come nobody recognizes the worth of my car!:o

JMHO. Considering how many of those cars are left intact and the time it took for them to get to their present value, I think us ZR-1 owners will have to wait a bit longer, maybe another 10 to 15 yrs at least? I would also doubt that attrition will help our cause as I do firmly believe that we will not "use them up like they did in the old days". As a group, I believe that we are too "aware" that our cars are not "disposable". You can't counterfeit a C4 ZR-1, well, alright, not easily nor cheaply.

My conclusion is that ZR-1's are kind of fairly priced by the market. They are for the most part about 50% higher to double the value of any regular C4, except the GS's & other specialty C4's. With that in mind, I think I will continue to drive mine every chance I get and put as many miles on her as I please because that's how I derive value on my $ spent on her!:mrgreen:

:cheers:
Tom

[secondchance]

I think I will continue to drive mine every chance I get and put as many miles on her as I please because that's how I derive value on my $ spent on her!:mrgreen:

:cheers:
Tom

My sentiments exactly. I figured, down the road, spending $16,000-20,000 for a rebuild (plus performance upgrade while I am at it) would make perfect sense after 150,000 to 200,000 miles of daily use and fun. I am starting to replace bushings as they fail. A set of new shocks are next on my list, new paint in next couple of years, etc... My logic is that the extra money spent is well worth it since the car serves it's main purpose as my daily driver.:mrgreen: